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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • ae9ae9 Member Posts: 19
    felke001,

    I am in the exact same boat...currently in an A4 & need a bit more room. For me, i just closed a deal on the A6 4.2 bc the BMW AWD doesnt come on the 545, same with the lexus GS400 & the E500 w 4 matic was way overpriced IMO,,,test drove the RL but just didnt do it for me & the M35x just was too much like a maxima for me....all personal preference but I wanted a AWD performance vehicle, had no problems w my A4 so I went with the A6 4.2....now if you are looking at the 3.2 the 530xi & the GS300 might come back into play.

    Hope that helps
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Everything about the car is great except the way it drives."
    :confuse:
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "With that said, it still drives better than all the cars in it's class" :confuse: :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    So you like the Infiniti M35x except that it drives like crap, but it still drives much better than a 530i? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    Can you be a little more specific about "the way it drives"? Handling? Acceleration? Braking? Road feel? Steering accuracy? Etc. What about it, after a year, made you so unhappy. Also, was there a particular reason you originally picked the X model and not the RWD version, since you seem very happy with the RWD 550i?
  • scoop4scoop4 Member Posts: 40
    I have been considering purchasing a Lexus SC430. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it is makes sense to wait until spring rather than purchase one now assuming that the price may be substantially lower due to depreciation
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    avineberg wrote: "I've been driving an Infinity M35X for about a year now. Everything about the car is great except the way it drives. The engine is loud, the shifts are rapid and pronounced, and the gas mileage is down right horrible. With that said, it still drives better than all the cars in it's class (bmw 530i, E350, A6)."

    hpowders, understandably, queried: "So you like the Infiniti M35x except that it drives like crap, but it still drives much better than a 530i?"

    It appears to me, from the cars avineberg went "up in class" to test drive (the A6 4.2, E550, M45, and BMW 550i), that avineberg was looking to replace his hated V6 with a V8 and found the sought-after object of desire. So, avineberg seems not to like any of the V6s in the LPS category. The one he disliked the least was the one with the strongest acceleration. That would tally with avineberg's migration to V8s in an attempt to find even more power, produced with less effort, more smoothly, and perhaps more quietly. The 550i comes with a 360-hp 4.8-liter V8, which generates the most HP of any of the cars avineberg tried out, and, if memory serves, subjects the car to a $1,000 federal gas-guzzler tax. That's not a criticism, just an attempt to make sense of what appears contradictory.

    But, that's all conjecture, just offered for fun.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If you order the 550i with (ugh) steptronic transmission, you get a $1300 gas guzzler credit.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, it MIGHT drive better than a 530i. There is no way it drives better than a 530xi -- if you are keeping the apples to apples comparisons (AWD, i.e.) going.

    The 530xi with the stick is great, the A6 with the S-Line package is also great if you are a shiftless kind of person -- the M35X is the closest to the Germans of the bunch with an honorable mention going to the STS when it is equipped with all the sporty option boxes checked.

    Here is the "if I didn't do it myself, I probably wouldn't believe it" claim: I tested the STS (V6) sport-ed up version against a 530 NON sported version and the STS "felt" crisper, handled better and was more powerful to boot (the Car and Driver editor for a day deal, which to be fair was a thinly veiled Cadillac commercial.)

    The M35X would be my second choice if I had to have an automatic, second to the Audi same rules.

    Of course, the 530xi stick with the 18" wheel/tires would be (or would have been had it been out) my #1.

    Today, we are back in the "value prop" days -- the A6 is second only to the STS in terms of bang for the buck (if AWD is on your list.)

    But the postings about the RL HERE, but not locally, would seem to belie that.

    They're giving away STS's here in River City, $11 down, and $11 a month and if you don't have the $11, "we'll even loan that to you!"

    "Come one come all, to the STS year end give-away. Just a mental block and a bridge from down town Cincinnapolis, good credit, bad credit, no credit -- we'll git 'er done!"

    The A6 is a little bit more, but still cheap, "like buyin' eggs in the country!"

    My how times have changed in just a short year.

    The M35X a year ago was the bargain, now not so much.

    Good thing these cars are so close to each other in content and performance -- don't you think? Or don't you?

    :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, in the LPS category, nothing handles as well as the 5 Series, of the cars I have driven. (This is my priority.
    Couldn't care less about interiors.)

    The M is quite good, but feels heavy, steering is a touch artificial and its loud engine proves tiresome.

    I am embarrassed to say I have not driven an A6 or E Class yet.
    Shame on me!

    I have driven the GS 430 with its ridiculous (non-optional) adaptive steering and hyper-sensitive brakes.
    Shame on Lexus!

    I have a 2005 545i and BMWFS is going to have a tough time prying it away from me in 23 months. I've never experienced anything like it-the intoxicating power and perfect control.

    Truely, an amazing vehicle!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have been considering purchasing a Lexus SC430. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it is makes sense to wait until spring rather than purchase one now assuming that the price may be substantially lower due to depreciation

    Wait for the brand new '08. There's no reason to buy the current car. They've fixed those hideous wheels and the awful run-flats from the '02s, but its still a rather lousy car, looks like a whale\bathtub, and drives no better than a Camry Solara.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Wait for the brand new '08. There's no reason to buy the current car. They've fixed those hideous wheels and the awful run-flats from the '02s, but its still a rather lousy car, looks like a whale\bathtub, and drives no better than a Camry Solara.

    Better yet, buy a Cayman.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "Better yet, buy a Cayman."

    Amen.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Cayman and SC arent exactly direct competitors. The Boxster is at least a convertible.
  • dan339gdan339g Member Posts: 56
    I've been in the UK for two weeks now on business, and have noticed that nearly all the LPS offerings are diesel. Of course with gasoline currently at $6.72/gallon, and diesel a bit more at $7/gallon, it makes good sense given the superior fuel economy. The most popular model here in the "midlands" appears to be the Mercedes E, with the Audi A6 close behind. I've been in traffic next to, and behind both models and visibly absent are diesel noise, smell/smoke that are the legacy of the ill fated US diesels from the 1980's. I went on the the UK websites, and see both the Mercedes E and the Audi A6 has 3 separate diesel choices, with the most economical getting 27 mpg city and over 43 highway. BMW has four choices. It seems like a no-brainer to bring these to the US given they are now clean, quieter and efficient. If we can just get past the memory of the diesel Oldsmobiles, and get thru the administrative nightmare of regulations.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Now that low-sulphur diesel is the rule in the land of Americans, it is much more likely a diesel could pass the emissions testing. And, some are coming.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Remember the Fiero? ...Not that it was ever the paragon of performance ;-)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Welcome to my cause -- I've enjoyed several diesels over the past five years in the UK & on the continent. The low-end torque is intoxicating & the fuel economy is the icing on the cake. Audi, VW, Ford, Citroen & Peugeot all offered 40+ mpg & stump-pulling, shift-only-if-you-feel-like-it performance (& all had manuals). Like you, in 2001 I was stunned at the quiet & odor-free performance of these vehicles. What's not to like?

    Well, North American diesel fuel, mostly. Back when I drove a truck, sulphur content in #2 diesel was measured in percent, not PPM. Some years ago, it was reduced to 500 PPM & by 2007 (I think, exact date escapes me), it's supposed to go down to 50 PPM.

    It'll be a long time before 50 PPM fuel is all that's available over here, so the OEM's are between a rock and a hard place. If they deliver cars that can only use 50 PPM diesel (& thus satisfy California), it'll be seconds until someone puts 500 PPM fuel into it. OTOH, engines that work fine on 500 PPM fuel don't meet (you guessed it) California emission standards -- most Mercedes & VW diesels fall into that category. VW has pulled a number of models off the table that used to offer the 1.9 litre diesel.

    I'm told that manufacturers are generally unwilling to deal with the hassle of selling anything in the U.S. that won't keep the CA zealots happy. Then, just for fun, most of them don't want to deliver anything in Canada that they can't sell in the U.S.

    Oh boy.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    15 PPM
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Well, you've supplied the answer. Now all I need is the question. It's CarSpace Jeopardy!

    Is 15 PPM the European standard? Do I have it wrong and 15 is the new U.S. standard? If it's the European standard, then I can see why there's going to be a problem for quite some time to come.

    Either way, I noticed new labels on the diesel pumps when I was in CA a few weeks ago, and our local Shell outlet here in AZ has a pile of little leaflets at the fuel desk that describes some of this stuff.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    The US standard as of this July is 15ppm. The European standard as of June of last year was 10ppm. We're close compared to where we were. Our limits for non-cars, agricultural vehicles and such is much lower than the European standard, so our fuel costs for this type of thing will be higher for our farmers than theirs (assuming they can find the higher sulpher stuff...wonder if the refineries will want to have multiple processes?). (Theirs appears to be 2000ppm while ours is 500ppm if I read it right.)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    The compelling reasons for diesel appear to be more evident with time. The growth of hybrids has helped open the dialogue, especially when the longer term limitations of hybrids become more obvious.

    Here in the agricultural Midwest where I live, the various lobbies and stakeholders mobilizing in favor of E85 will pose a big political obstacle to diesel. You almost wonder if there is a (political) future where diesel and ethanol can coexist?

    If the infrastructure, logistics, and costs can be addressed, I sure hope there is an intelligent dialogue that analyzes both options, along with hydrogen, fuel cells, and other potential options. The lack of a comprehensive energy policy in the U.S. becomes painfully obvious.

    Numerous ethanol plants are already on the drawing board out here, along with studies on how the fuel can be properly transported and distributed. You wonder if all this development is getting way out ahead of intelligent analysis and forecasting.

    Meanwhile, it does not appear that most import brands (forget LPS cars) are jumping on the E85 bandwagon due to its poor performance and MPG efficiency.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Meanwhile, it does not appear that most import brands (forget LPS cars) are jumping on the E85 bandwagon due to its poor performance and MPG efficiency.

    Actually, I read that Toyota is working on FFVs. As for performance, running on E85 actually boosts horsepower when compared to 87 gasoline. I dont think there are any FFVs in production that are speced for 91+ gasoline, so I'm not sure how ethanol would compare to that, power wise. MPG though is definitely awful with ethanol.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I did read that Toyota was beginning to get more serious with FFVs. I wonder if they are doing it for the right reasons. There are so few filling stations that offer E85 that even if you wanted to use it regularly, it's hard to consistently find it.

    Interesting followup/letters to the editor in this month's C&D about Bedard's previous article lambasting E85. Since the primary source for ethanol is corn, some are speculating that potential corn shortages may result in higher costs for numerous other corn-based everyday products. I'm all for assisting the farmers, but out here the political focus gets very blurred as to the real reason so many are behind expanding ethanol production.

    As much as the domestic carmakers like to wave their "Go Green E85" propaganda, I wonder if their primary reasons for developing FFVs is to take advantage of Dubya's tax breaks, and to tacitly admit that they are several years behind with hybrid and other alternative fuel technology.

    Of course, the European makes have apparently steered clear of the hybrid push, perhaps due to their established reliance on diesel. When I had the chance to meet with the Audi engineers in Ingolstadt 3 years ago, I mostly got blank stares when I asked them about where Audi was with hybrids and alternative fuel technologies. At the time I assumed they were just playing dumb, but in hindsight it's possible that they've had little on the developmental, much less production, end.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Talk about compelling and enough to make you lust for something:

    Diesel Dreaming

    Note: the PRICES quoted.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I'm for going first with a push (which will happen apparently with the tax credits for diesel continuing) for clean diesel cars: such BMW, Mercedes, Audi have demonstrated (powerful, not smelly, fuel efficient and in several other ways potentially easier on the pocketbook.)

    Then, ramp up NOT the production of ethanol (doh!) which has about 70% of the MPG capability as gasoline, ramp up the production of bio-diesel which these cars (Lucifer) see as if it were dino diesel.

    If we're going for renewable why not go for something that can be renewed, used alone, blended and transported in the existing infrastructure, something that gets 20 40% better mileage and better performance to boot (remember in the test above, the diesel was "raced" NOT against its 6 cylinder counterpart but against its V8 sibling -- which costs more to purchase in the first place!)

    In the upcoming near to mid term E85 is a loss in so many ways. B0 to B100 is a win in almost every way.

    And, of course, follow the leader -- bring 'em out in force in the LPS cars, followed within a short time period in the near LPS cars and quick fast offer them in the "mainstream" of cars. Could we get to 30% penetration this way -- perhaps. Could we get to 15% penetration this way -- now that seems really doable.

    Read on McDuff:

    Demand for Diesel Cars and SUV’s Jumped 31 Percent in 2005

    "Washington, D.C. – With oil costs shattering records and gasoline prices causing concerns nationwide, savvy American consumers are increasingly turning to diesel-powered vehicles as a fuel-sipping alternative to gasoline, according to new research released today by the Diesel Technology Forum (DTF). The driving force behind this leap is that diesel engines are 20 to 40 percent more fuel-efficient than comparable gasoline-powered engines without requiring consumers to sacrifice power or performance.

    Data compiled by R.L. Polk & Co. show that registration of diesel passenger vehicles in the U.S. – including cars, trucks and SUVs – has grown a remarkable 80 percent since 2000, up from 301,000 diesel vehicles that year to 543,777 diesel registrations in 2005. For the all-important light-duty market, diesel registrations nearly doubled (95 percent growth) from 2000-2005, with 31 percent growth coming in 2005 alone. When given a choice between a gasoline or diesel engine, consumers purchased the diesel engine option almost half the time (45 percent) in 2005.

    “In this era of sky-high gasoline prices, Americans are increasingly looking to diesel as a readily available solution to help alleviate their pain at the pump,” said Allen Schaeffer, DTF’s executive director. “Gasoline hybrid’s and flexible-fueled ethanol vehicles aren’t the only fuel efficient choices consumers have today.”

    Most analysts expect the diesel trend to continue due in part to rising fuel prices and the desire to improve U.S. vehicle efficiency. Researchers at J.D. Power and Associates predict that diesel sales will approximately triple in the next 10 years, accounting for more than 10 percent of U.S. vehicle sales by 2015 – up from 3.6 percent in 2005.

    Earlier this week, President Bush proposed extending federal tax credits for the purchase of fuel-efficient clean diesel vehicles. In a speech to the Renewable Fuels Association on Tuesday, he said that part of a good plan “to confront high gasoline prices is to promote greater fuel efficiency. Clean diesel vehicles take advantage of advances in diesel technology to run on 30 percent less fuel than gasoline vehicles do… so here's an idea that can get more of these vehicles on the road, and that is to have Congress make all hybrid and clean diesel vehicles sold this year eligible for federal tax credits. We want to encourage people to make wise choices when it comes to the automobiles they drive.”

    It’s no surprise that clean diesel’s are gaining so much momentum. Consider the facts:

    Diesel vehicles are much more fuel efficient, typically getting 20 to 40 percent more miles to the gallon than a comparable gasoline car. The federal government’s 2005 Fuel Economy Guide shows that four of the top 10 most fuel-efficient vehicles are diesel powered. Plus ...

    Diesel could help reduce America’s addiction to oil. According to officials at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, America could save up to 1.4 million barrels of oil per day, an amount equivalent to the oil we currently import from Saudi Arabia, if one-third of U.S. cars, pickups and SUVs were diesel-powered.

    Diesels provide superior power and performance, an important feature for American drivers who want to save money at the pump without sacrificing their driving experience.

    Diesel drivers have the option of filling their tanks with blends of biodiesel, a domestically produced, renewable fuel that reduces U.S. oil dependence and contributes to our own economy.

    “Those that haven’t experienced the new generation of diesels are in for an awakening,” concluded Schaeffer. “These cars are clean, quiet and very performance oriented – they’re fun to drive while delivering 20 to 40 percent better real-world fuel economy than their gasoline counterparts.”

    For more information, including complete data from R.L. Polk & Co. and a list of diesel vehicles currently available for sale in the U.S., visit www.dieselforum.org."

    Source: Diesel Technology Forum
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    5-Series 4,445
    E-Class 3,955
    GS 2,971
    M 2,120
    RL 1,134

    Still waiting for Audi and Caddy...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    the plan for Audi and (one hopes) BMW for Diesels in the new ultra-low sulphur content (15 PPM, my bad) environment that's soon to be present in the good ol'US of A?

    I've heard discussions of multiple cat converters and any number of other things, based (I think) on the need to be able to digest the higher sulphur fuel that is often the only choice.

    Is it, or is it not, reasonable to expect that some of the stuff that's available in Europe will be sold here within two years?
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    The gap between diesel available in Europe and here has narrowed: 10ppm (Europe) to 15ppm (USA). I don't know if that is close enough; previously, it definately wasn't. So, does anyone know if they had to tweak the engines or are they now the same when it comes to diesels that will be sold here? If they are in fact the same, then there would seem to be more options, and lower end vehicles could more easily be fitted with them. The LPS cars offer enough margin to justify the mods, not sure if the smaller ones do, at least yet.
  • jaqfriedjaqfried Member Posts: 3
    drtravel,
    Out of curiosity, do you have the YTD numbers??
    Thanks
    J
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    2,971 GS sales? I wonder what caused such a large jump?
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    5-Series 4,445
    E-Class 3,955
    GS 2,971
    M 2,120
    RL 1,134

    Still waiting for Audi and Caddy...


    Bad month for Audi A6:

    This August = 1,208; Last August = 1509 (-20.0%)
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Reuters compiled a list of the 20 top-selling vehicles in the U.S. through August of 2006 as reported by the automakers.

    Total sales of the top 20 vehicles fell 7.5 percent or -329,212 units to 4,072,044.

    Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.

    RANK VEHICLE 2006 2005 (2005 RANK) %CHANGE
    1 Ford F-Series pickup 545,963 625,047 (1) -12.7
    2 Chevy Silverado-C/K pickup 434,937 522,227 (2) -16.7
    3 Toyota Camry 302,636 299,507 (3) +1.0
    4 Toyota Corolla/Matrix 274,074 235,980 (6) +16.1
    5 Honda Accord 250,663 258,514 (5) -3.0
    6 Dodge Ram Pickup 250,144 283,310 (4) -11.7
    7 Honda Civic 225,212 203,673 (7) +10.6
    8 Chevrolet Impala 197,304 160,579 (13) +22.9
    9 Chevrolet Cobalt 163,343 148,831 (15) +9.8
    10 Dodge Caravan 151,858 166,917 (12) -9.0
    11 Nissan Altima 154,909 178,703 (9) -13.3
    12 GMC Sierra pickup 142,129 171,139 (10) -17.0
    13 Ford Taurus 125,185 147,770 (16) -15.3
    14 Ford Explorer 127,569 183,999 (8) -30.7
    15 Ford Focus 126,670 143,360 (17) -11.6
    16 Chevrolet Malibu 122,345 139,735 (18) -12.4
    17 Honda Odyssey 125,588 121,292 (20) +3.5
    18 Chevrolet TrailBlazer 118,718 169,552 (11) -30.0
    19 Ford Econoline 119,829 120,939 (21) -0.9
    20 Ford Escape 112,968 120,182 (22) -6.0
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    M35/45

    August 2005 = 2,623

    August 2006 = 2,120

    Percentage change = -22.2
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    This August = 4,445

    Last August = 4,359
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Explorer and Trailblazer are doomed. I cant think of a better time to roll out the "300 of SUVs" (riiiight). Amazing how Toyota cars continue to dominate the market even when they are near EOL, like the Corolla. I dont know how Toyota does that.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    TYD

    5-Series 35,754
    E-Class 29,154
    GS 18,539
    M 17,541
    STS 17,262 EST
    A6 12,244
    RL 8,066

    Caddy sold 2,658 in August but did not report sales for July so I had to use their monthly average for the reported months.

    Since April BMW has only outsold MB 21655 to 20495
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Here's a comparison of sales for the April-August period for 2005 vs 2006

    E-Class 22,064 (2005) vs 20,495 (2006) (-7.1%)
    5-Series 21,063 vs 21,655 (+2.8%)
    STS 17,465 vs 11,637 (-33.3%)
    GS 16,365 vs 12,029 (-26.5%)
    M 12,316 vs 11,020 (-10.5%)
    A6 7,506 vs 7,760 (+3.4%)
    RL 7,735 vs 5,464 (-29.4%)

    Used April 2005 as a starting point because that's when the new GS and M really had their first monthly inventories in place. They both came out in March but gave the dealers a month to get an adequate supply.

    What do these numbers mean? Beats me - I'll let others spin them.

    Happy Labor Day
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If I were a BMW or Audi exec. I'd be pleased. If I worked at Cadillac or Acura, not so much. I'm not sure what Cadillac's initial expectations were (Acura expected 20K cars a year and thats just not happening), but the STS isn't selling well.
  • dan339gdan339g Member Posts: 56
    Are these US or Global figures?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Yep, Audi of America must be pretty pleased AGAIN:

    "AUBURN HILLS, Mich.,1 Sept 2006 - Audi of America, Inc. today reported August 2006 sales of 7,115 units, an increase of three percent compared to year ago sales. Through the first eight months of 2006, Audi dealers have sold 54,575 vehicles, an increase of 5.4 percent over the same period a year ago, and an annual record pace for the brand."

    :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    First, the BMW 5 Series continues to trounce sales of the "made to out-perform" Infiniti M35/45.

    Sales of the 5 Series in the USA were up 2% over the last year through August 31, 2006 and sales of the M were down 19%.

    Now in the latest issue of MotorTrend, the Infiniti G35S came in second to the BMW 330i.

    Problem is second was last place in this comparo!

    Looks like Infiniti's dream to "outperform" BMW is nothing more than sheer fantasy. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Actually closer to down 19%. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    One year August 2005 through August 2006:

    MB E Class: -21.1% BMW 5 Series: +2%

    YTD through August 31, 2006:

    MB E Class: -5.8% BMW 5 Series: +11.3%
  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    I just got off of a college football bulletin board. Lot of taunting between teams. You know, "we're better because we won this, etc. etc...

    I just realized coming back to this one, there seems to be alot of that going on here too. Frankly, it's kind of funny.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Looks like Infiniti's dream to "outperform" BMW is nothing more than sheer fantasy.

    Which is more important, sales numbers or comparison tests results? The M won the majority of the comparison tests against the 5. The new G has lost one comparison test thusfar, we'll see what happens with the rest. In any case, the G35 will continue to trounce the 330i in sales.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh c'mon Lexusguy the M won comparison tests against a old and dated 225 Hp 5 series. The M45 won a comparison test against a BMW530i (unfair advantage for Infiniti in terms of displacement.

    These tests mean nothing today with the new and improved engines that currently exists in the 5 series.

    Independent of sales the 5 series and 3 series remain benchmark vehicles as they have for decades.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Don't forget that the G35 is considerably less expensive than a comparably equipped 3-series. BMW rocks, but the G is a helluva value. The comparison results are also pretty close. It's like comparing chocolate ice cream vs. vanilla ice cream.

    Speaking of college football, watch out for my Oregon Ducks! (But our uniforms are the ugliest if you're over 21 years of age. If you're young, "they are phat" according to my kids.) Here's hoping Notre Dame goes down in flames.

    Carry on with the trash talking.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Sales figures are only one way to look at what is "best". Personal preferences, whether founded in fact or perception play a huge part in that decision. Look at all of the people that perpetually buy Kellogs Corn Flakes verses another brand...just because they're happy with it...same with the person that buys a Chevy because their parents had one and their grandfather bought one. People tend to overlook the bad points and amplify the good points once they've made up their mind that something is the "best" Everyone' needs are different, whether because of price, physical size, passenger space, trunk space, towing capacity, etc. A big component of what people will buy is also based on how convenient a dealer is and what the "snob" factor is. This may be based in fact, or not, but again, it depends on each individual's needs and desires.

    To blatantly state that one thing is the best and that everyone else is dumb if they don't agree with you, especially based on numbers (BMW has been around as a brand for a long time and has a much bigger dealer network to have built up brand loyalty). It took Toyota a long time to become a leading seller. Things like Ferrari, Maserati, etc. may arguably be better performers, but will never reach the sales levels of BMW. Can you say that BMW is absolutely the best under just sales volume?

    Your rationalization that Infinit won those comparisons because they used vehicles with larger, more powerful engines, and compared it to a "lesser" vehicle doesn't hold if you factor in the somewhat relevant price per performance factor. Match up a Porche with BMW, and you might not win, either price be damned. So, I find it somewhat childish to always hear one thing must be best because it sells more. I'd rather keep it to why one is better, not just blatant blather that is MUST be better because it sells more.

    Many people will buy a brand to make a statement, whether it is a good product or not. Not saying that BMW is a bad product by any means, just that it is not "Best" for all for many reasons. Let's focus on trying to ferret out WHY one is perceived better, not the childish MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS because more people buy it.

    That argument may very well have flip-flopped in another 25-years once the Infiniti brand has been around a bit longer. Look at where Japan was 50-years ago, little industry left (not to discount what happened in Germany, but the level of consumer goods started at significantly different levels) and look at it now...
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Sales figures are only one way to look at what is "best". Personal preferences

    James that is exactly what I wrote on my last post. Sales does not indicate much in terms of a car's excellence.

    If you read my last post I wrote:

    Independent of sales BMW 5 and 3 series remains benchmark vehicles.
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