Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Luxury Performance Sedans

1160161163165166201

Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    No but AVON Tech 550 A/S UHP are well discussed as a plus zero approach. They seem to be a bit noisier than the PZeros accoring to reviews on tire rack.

    I am considering the PZero M+S -- any feedback? Treadwear?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The BMW was almost $71,000! The Infiniti also won the Got-To-Have-It category, edging out the BMW by one point."

    Fair enough. Price-wise BMW will lose out all the time against the competition, except maybe Benzes. The 'Fun to Drive" aspect of BMWs are valued more higher by some drivers who usually end up being BMW owners.


    My BMW335i will be priced slightly above the competition. But IMO the BMW335i is the best value!
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    The PZero Nero M & S have been great tires. I would highly reccomend them as a replacement tire. I would estimate their treadlife at about 20,000-25,000 miles. Unfortunately, they do not come in 255/40/18. So I am thinking of the Avons. However, I think the 255s require an 8.5" rim and I am beginning to think that the Audi rims are only 8". If this turns out to be the case I may stick with the Pirellis.

    Kevin
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    IMO the BMW335i is the best value!

    Note that the M also won the C&D "Gotta have it" category, which is the closest category they have to " most desired car, independent of price."

    The interesting thing IMO, is that the M wins, despite the fact these reviews tend to ignore two very important areas almost entirely.

    1) Reliability. Look at consumer reports reliability surveys where the M far outshines the BMW and M-B. Also look at the Consumer reports Owner Satisfaction Survey, where the M wins with 92% of owners who would buy again, as compared to about 70% of 5-Series owners, and 62% of E-Series owners. Seems to me these are very big issues when it comes to overall value, yet not even considered in the C&D review. Don't you feel kind of foolish every time you have to bring this very high priced car into the shop. I know I do with my M-B.

    2) Navigation and other electronics. As a serious user of Navigation (and a successfully retired software developer), I feel pretty clear about the fact that the M's navigation (including a wonderful voice command for destination street addresses) completely blows away the BMW and M-B systems, in so many ways. These reviews place far less weight on these systems than than their actual effect on most potential owners. (C&D IS an enthusiast rag after all. However PC magazine, Popular Mechanics and others also give the M luxury car of the year, coming from a very strong technology perspective) Look at the M's incredibly bright rear view monitor (even in the black of night) The lines showing your car's path, as you turn that steering wheel, are a total pleasure in every parking experience and every time you're in reverse. Again, given very short shrift in these reviews.

    If you look at the total package: The "Gotta Have It" quality, reliability, great electronics, a fantastic performer and a great handling car to boot, it's hard to see how the M wouldn't be a much bigger winner, or how the BMW can be the better valued car.

    My plan, before I bought my M, was to find the best car I could for less than $110K. I got the M not because it was the best car for the money, but because, from my perspective, it was the best car period. I'd really have preferred to pay more if meant getting a better car and getting some more prestige along with it. In the end, I had to go with what I thought was the best car, and after more than a year, I haven't been disappointed.

    But to each their own.

    Pete
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "1. Infiniti M45 Sport
    2. BMW 550i Sport
    3. Mercedes-Benz E550
    4. Lexus GS450h "

    Were they all automatics?
    Since the M & E550 only come that way, I hope the BMW was also equipped with theirs...
    Thanks,
    - Ray
    Also not yet received my copy of C+D....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Got this elsewhere.

    Consumer Reports annual owner satisfaction survey (April 2006) asks OWNERS to rate their satisfaction with their own cars. The question they ask for this survey, as always, is: "Would you buy this car again?"

    The Survey lists the following cars (Shown next to the percentage of owners who would buy it again.)

    * 92% - Infiniti M35/M45
    * 89% - Lexus GS300/GS430
    * 89% - Lexus LS430
    * 80% - Audi A6 sedan (V6)
    * 78% - Acura RL
    * 75% - Jaguar XJ Series
    * 75% - Audi A8
    * 72% - BMW 5 Series (V8)
    * 70% - Lincoln Town Car
    * 69% - BMW 5 Series (6-cyl.)
    * 67% - Cadillac STS
    * 64% - BMW 7 Series
    * 63% - Jaguar S-Type
    * 62% - Mercedes-Benz E-Class
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    It's already been a few hours and no BMW owner has come out to refute the C + D methodology!? I'm sure that C + D didn't include the prestige (impressing your neighbors with how much money you can afford to pay for a new car) category. Give BMW 10 extra points and low-and-behold, the 550 comes out on top.

    On a more serious note, I wish they would have tested the V6 varieties. Most people actually buy these than the V8s. The M35 probably would have come out on top as it is very near the M45 in performance. The 525/530 not so close to the 550, the GS350 is close to the GS450h.

    Went to the Taste of Lexus event yesterday. Test drove the IS350, GS450h, LS460, S550, and 750 on a road course. Pretty good experience. Curiously no special instructions were given to us prior to blast off except for the 750 where they explained to all drivers how to shift and adjust the seats. You mean BMW controls are not intuitive?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    It would appear you are as emotional about your Infiniti as BMW owners are about their rides. :)

    I agree the 6 cylinders are probably the most commonly sold, but LPS's, as described here, refer to the performance side, so the V8's are probably the item of choice for folks in this crowd, if possible.

    The 5, like the 3, has long been considered a benchmark in their class. While I would like to see the 5 on top, I'm just as happy to see other car makers making such high calibre rides. We all win with vehicle choices like this.

    I'd take any of the cars in the comparo and be happy with them. I'm more into the LPC's (Luxury Perfomance Coupes). :)

    -Paul
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    It would appear you are as emotional about your Infiniti as BMW owners are about their rides.

    That's a very fair statement. :)

    (Your message was a reply to drtravel, but I suspect it may have been intended for me, given my previous message.)

    I also believe that it's possible for BMW and Infiniti fans to be both passionate AND honest.

    Pete
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    i doubt any car drivers are truly honest... i was not honest one moment of my life after i decided that we were buying a bmw. i made sure all arguments lined up for the decision, hell with everything else including ridiculously low quality of fit and workmanship.

    ksso
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    i doubt any car drivers are truly honest... i was not honest one moment of my life after i decided that we were buying a bmw. i made sure all arguments lined up for the decision, hell with everything else including ridiculously low quality of fit and workmanship.

    In one sense you're agreeing with my sentiments, and in another you're disagreeing.

    In either case, your statement comes across as being very honest.

    Thanks
    Pete
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "Reliability. Look at consumer reports reliability surveys where the M far outshines the BMW and M-B. Also look at the Consumer reports Owner Satisfaction Survey, where the M wins with 92% of owners who would buy again, as compared to about 70% of 5-Series owners, and 62% of E-Series owners. Seems to me these are very big issues when it comes to overall value, yet not even considered in the C&D review. Don't you feel kind of foolish every time you have to bring this very high priced car into the shop. I know I do with my M-B."

    Pete:

    I think your comment points to some important variations among car buyers. About 8 or 9 years ago I chose a European family sedan over the Toyota Camry. It's likely that I made a few more trips to the dealer's service dept. I have friends who would have said to themselves "You should have known better," but that wasn't what I thought or how I felt because I had driven both cars and experienced so much more driving and aesthetic pleasure in the car I chose. I have felt foolish when I've bought a car and found myself not enjoying looking at it and driving it over the years of ownership or, in other words, when the excitement I felt during shopping and test-driving wore out more quickly than I ever would have predicted. Your personal experience sounds ideal, the one we'd all like, where everything you read about a car and your own experience of the various buying options you have all point to the same choice.

    When I was choosing a car recently, I also read the startling figure of 92% of M owners telling CR they'd buy one again. Since I was also considering the Audi A6, and 8 of 10 (as opposed to 9 of 10 for the M) owners said they'd buy that again, I wasn't swayed by the disparity. Also, I read in one posting on this forum that the CR survey had been done during the first couple of months the M was on sale, and I went back and checked and that was, in fact, true -- the M went on sale February/March 2005 and the survey was conducted in the couple of months right after that. So, I was even less swayed that 9 of 10 people who had bought a car were still infatuated with it after a month or two. What did catch my attention was that, in reading the Edmunds LPS, Lexus, MB, Audi, and Infiniti forums, there were only 4 times I read someone say, virtually, that they really no longer liked an LPS they had bought within the prior year, sometimes within the prior few months -- and all four cases were M owners. I have no idea what to make of that but, emotionally, it stuck in my mind more than the CR "I'd buy it again" numbers. In the end, however, I tried to limit the extent to which I was being pushed by either kind of data. Partly I do that because I work in a field where statistics are heavily depended upon. As a result, I'm often struck by how the whole auto journalism industry tries to use numbers, as if their numbers ("on a scale of 1 to 20, rate the wow! Factor of this car" or "on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did driving this car for a day make you want to own it?") were like real experimental scientific data, when actually it's more like movie critics being asked to rate a film's plot and characterization and humor on scales of 1 to 10. Similarly, this weekend Barron's focused on luxury cars. Among their "statistical" tables was one about "how many owners predicted they would buy another car from the manufacturer of the one they currently drive?" and no brand was listed as having achieved even 50% customer loyalty. In any field of study that actually counted on such numbers being "real", somebody would have pointed out that this varied wildly from data reported from another widely cited source (CR), but that wasn't mentioned at all by Barrons. And CR won't care that Barrons' claims were way off from its claims.

    Same as for the auto mags. While I am addicted to them and love to vicariously drive every available car through the experiences of the auto journalists, I read them the way I read movie or theater reviews. They hardly ever all like the same movie the best. For example, Automobile Magazine compared Acura RL, Audi A6 4.2, BMW 545i, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M45, Jaguar S-type, Lexus GS430, and Mercedes-Benz E500 in 2005. They liked the M45: "The Infiniti M45 takes all the classic BMW attributes and amplifies them. The body is in-credibly stiff, the engine is incredibly powerful, the suspension is incredibly damped, and the brakes heat up and grab incredibly swiftly. The car delivers great test numbers, but it makes you feel uncomfortable, especially the steering, which becomes very light once you turn into a corner. Sherman says, "It feels like a case of premature removal from the development oven." But they liked the Audi A6 4.2 the best: "The A6 delivers such extraordinary satisfaction in every aspect of driving that we find it irresistible. Gillies says, 'It is both beautiful and bang up-to-date, proving that being at the cutting edge doesn't mean missing the mark. It feels bored at 80 mph and doesn't break a sweat at 100 mph.' Johnson notes, 'It isn't a superstar in any single category, but it possesses such a high level of excellence in all areas that it deserves the gold medal.' Sherman says simply, 'I would happily live with it.' The Audi A6 delivers a premium experience, and it marks you as a driver who appreciates both great design and great driving."

    Should you care? I don't think so. As I said, you report such a harmonic convergence of visceral and reading-research confirmation of the fit between you and that car, it's hard to imagine anyone figuring you'd be happier with their car. Keep enjoying.

    Domenick
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    What did catch my attention was that, in reading the Edmunds LPS, Lexus, MB, Audi, and Infiniti forums, there were only 4 times I read someone say, virtually, that they really no longer liked an LPS they had bought within the prior year, sometimes within the prior few months -- and all four cases were M owners.

    Look around some more and you'll find many customers of all LPS brands on these boards who regretted their decision. Especially check out when a new model design came out. (You really couldn't find any unhappy MB owners?) It may well be that Infiniti and Lexus buyers have much higher quality expectations than the German car buyers. I've noticed this during my visits to the BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and MB service departments. (Yes, I've been fortunate enough to own all four brands) You just have to take many posts that complain about how bad something is with a little grain of salt. Ulterior motives?
  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    I'm beginning to think some cannot be happy with their purchase unless they have been validated by having their car sell more than the competition or having better articles written about them than the competition. This "mine is better than yours" stuff is becoming very weird. Rant over.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "Look around some more and you'll find many customers of all LPS brands on these boards who regretted their decision."

    Point well taken and, ironically, much akin to my main point in that my hopscotching around half-a-dozen forums wasn't even a statistically valid sampling of Edmunds forums, just what I happened to come across. In fact, what we were both bringing to attention, by reference to polls of owners asking them if they'd buy their current brand again, is that at least 10 to 20% of even of the "best-loved" brands have owners who, not long after bring baby home, will say they're disappointed and will buy something else next time.
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    Domenick

    I do feel lucky to have a car that satisfies so many of my desires and one that feels like I'm sacrificing nothing. It's very rare in this high tech age, where every single product seems a trade off of one kind or another. I also wouldn't want to try to dissuade you from your choice, and you seem very happy as well. The Audi is a beautiful car and I always enjoy seeing it on the road. I'm sure there are a great number of very happy Audi owners out there.

    For the record, and for the benefit of those who are in the process of making a choice, I would like to comment on Edmunds review and where it fits in the overall picture. Please take no offense from these comments, nor any less pleasure form your car.

    Edmunds was one of very few reviews (out of the many, many overall), where the M has come out anything less than first. Note that Edmunds did what they called a "Sports Sedan" comparo and chose the stiffer M sport for their tests, yet they seemed to knock the M for being too much like a sorts car. I think the Edmunds staff would have been much happier with the smooth driving, great handling non-sport version. In terms of being satisfying in many different categories: The hugely varying priorities of the various reviews and comparisons that pick the M show the great breadth of the M's appeal.

    The Enthusiasts:
    The M has won almost all comparos from the enthusiast mags including 2 large comparos from C&D, 1 from R/T, and 2 from MT. A really incredible record. These guys weigh sports car like handling more highly than everything else. While isolated excerpts can argue that some may have preferred some aspects of the other cars, the fact that the M comes out on top in these mags really speaks well for its handling/performance credentials.

    The Technocrats:

    M won luxury car of the year from both PC Mag and Popular Mechanics. Technology, software, and user interface are all such an important part of todays driving experience. These issues will really effect more of our every day experience than most buyers realize.

    The Pragmatists:
    M won Luxury car of the year from Consumer Reports, and Motor Week (The PBS TV show). CR and MW will not weigh sports car handling as highly, nor place as much emphasis on tech. They try to look at the overall experience, practicality, quality and reliability. Also, tons more passenger leg room, fit and finish, intuitive accessible controls, all go into this kind of decision.

    The Newspapers
    From the various reviews, the M seems to be something of a favorite for USA Today, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times and Detroit News. They love the M for a wide variety of reasons.

    The Owner Satisfaction Surveys
    The M beat all members of it's class in the JD powers Most Appealing Car Survey (an owner survey measuring the pleasure of owning and driving a new car), had the highest satisfaction of any luxury car in the CR annual survey, and came out much higher than the German cars in CR expected reliability surveys. (Of course, Lexus will always do well in this category as well.)

    The net result IMO is simply that the car deserves a test drive from any prospective buyer.

    Pete
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    This "mine is better than yours" stuff is becoming very weird.

    I understand your point.

    You realize, however, that if we took all suggestions of "Mine is better than yours" out of these comparo forums there wouldn't be much left. For that matter, if we took those kinds of discussions out of our culture, we'd be missing all professional sports and many other things.

    My personal goal is just to try to open up some minds to a product that's given me a lot of pleasure.

    Reading these forums, I get the idea that individual opinions have very little effect on opening minds, but that opinions of the "experts" might have just a little bit more.

    IMO it's all good fun, and no offense is intended.

    Pete
  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    Problem is, everyone finds an expert to validate the opinion they already made when they bought their car. I happen to find some very good qualities in about 75% of the cars that this forum discusses. I bought an M, I love the BMW five series (except for the banglisms), I respect the niche Mercedes dominates with the E series, and Lexus has made a quality product every year they have been in existance.

    My point was, that if you bought what you want, it just doesn't matter who wins the magazine poll awards or which brand happens to sell the most. The chest pounding may be more telling than the opinions offered. Unless, you are affiliated with a dealership trying to sell a particluar vehicle, that is. ;)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    With cars as new as the M from Infiniti, it is difficult to know if the consumer actually WILL put money down for another one, in spite of what they may claim.

    The willingness to claim "I'll probably get another one" is, however, important -- but when I read posts from "multiple offenders," I really take notice.

    I have even been interested in the buy and re buy habits of/for TIRES since, until today, I was in the market for replacement tires for my A6.

    Anyway, today, I would not be so keen to give a high value to "intentions."

    Those folks who have multiple Cadillac's or BMW's or Acura's -- now those folks must have been treated well by their favorite brand and / or dealership.

    I am certain there are one time BMW buyers -- the one's that I know are "serial offenders."

    I recently went through an elaborate process of helping someone test drive a series of cars.

    We started with the premise: I need to replace my Accord, I am pretty sure I want an SUV type vehicle, I am pretty certain I want to look at a CR-V and a Rav4. I am open to looking at something else.

    My Audi dealer owns a Hyundai dealership. The new Santa Fe ('07) with ALL the toys on it had been highly reviewed and it obviously has a great warranty.

    I set up the test drives of the cars noted and we made our first stop at the Audi dealer. "While I'm here," she says, "I'll test an A4 2.0T."

    She was totally smitten.

    She had to have an A4 with a whole bunch of options, bringing it to $39K.

    The Santa Fe, similarly equipped was $27K -- ditto the Honda and the Toyota. The offer was made on the Audi.

    The offer was met within $20.

    She went with the CR-V.

    No leather, no Bluetooth, no Sat Radio, no. . . .

    All must have's. . .

    The point has to do with the Brand Loyalty, I can only assume.

    Those of you who actually have purchased the brand -- your brand -- a few times, actually have put your money where. . .your intentions are.

    Speaking perhaps as an army of one, I appreciate the loyalty of those folks who keep returning to "their brand" even after testing the competition.
  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    I daresay that those of us in this forum are "mature" enough to make up our own mind as to what we like and want. We've all had enough cars and experiences to know what is most valuable to us first hand. While outside validation is always nice, I do not need the opinion of someone else to tell me what I like.

    When I bought a car last month I made a point of going to all of the dealers and test driving all cars up for consideration. I ended up buying the car that I thought that I had already eliminated on certain grounds. Go figure. I'm now happier with the car than I was when I first got it - heck I've even waxed the thing.

    When you spend as much dough as you will on cars in this class you really should get the car that makes you happy.
  • steveking1steveking1 Member Posts: 7
    I was wondering if anyone had recommendations for getting very dark, illegal, window tint in the central florida area.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    I agree with the general sentiment of Domenick's post and those of others which question the value or enjoyment of reading "I've found the golden car at the end of the rainbow" claims, although I do understand the emotion behind such claims when they are offered in the spirit of "I'm in love with the car I just bought and I want to sing it from the rooftops."

    As some of you recall, in late May I bought an M35 and within a month wished I had bought the other of my two final choices, the Audi A6. I was quite hyperbolic and dramatic in the throes of buyer's remorse. After a few months, I came back down to earth and settled into this driver's version of Thoreau's "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." In this more sober state, I realized the car was the source of my discontent only in the sense that I knew, on some level, throughout the final stages of choosing between it and the Audi that I was being inexorably pushed toward buying it largely by what I had read and not by my own reactions to driving it and the A6. A couple of Edmunds forum participants picked this up before I did and even drew my attention to what they saw I was doing. I ignored them and my own feelings and bought the M35. The aftermath was made worse by the fact that there is nothing objectively wrong with the car. Trying to argue that it is better than the Audi or vice versa is futile. The auto mags were excited about the most acceleration per dollar of the M35/M45 and CR did its job of identifying the M's valium-value in offering relief from fear of visits to service departments. I was looking to be told, I realize in retrospect, by the voice of collective authority that one car had finally been found, which trumped all the rest and was guaranteed to fit all the best. Unfortunately, for me, it was like being allergic to wool and discovering that the new Armani suit was in fact pure wool. For many, it will be the best suit they ever bought. For me, it itched every time I drove it.

    Yes, past tense. My brother and his wife came to visit over Labor Day. Lo and behold, she had decided that in March 2007, she would start looking for a used M coming back off one of the first (February/March, 2005) two-year leases. She was in love with the car in my garage. She drove mine all weekend and fell more deeply in love. A local Audi dealer facilitated a buy-through process to avoid double tax paying. She has the M35 and I now have the A6. We are both as happy as each of us has ever been with a new car. Go figure.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Sorry, we don't do "illegal" here - check the Membership Agreement.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Congrats, Charlie, that's great! If you had told us that before, I missed it. Glad to hear you're both happy.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Good post, Pete.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I've driven and driven and driven quite of few of these LPS cars discussed here and I would argue some that aren't discussed here but could be.

    These days, I find so little differentiates them -- they are all quite good. I suspect style -- whatever that means to you -- does have a great deal to do with our choices and even the development of loyalties to a brand.

    Yet, most of us probably argue it is the performance, features, options, perhaps economy or value -- SOMETHING other than style that really, in the final analysis, had drawn us to THIS car, over the others.

    I'm gonna stick with the main reason to pick A over B or E over C is style.

    Of course, I know (and maybe you do too) that my choice (and yours, too, of course) really are more than about looks alone -- let the other folks buy on looks, just don't accuse me of that.

    Yea, that's it, my choice really is, objectively speaking, the best choice -- it is too bad YOU can't see that, for I alone, apparently (well maybe a few thousand other folks each year), know that my choice has that. . .ummm, er, it is on the tip of my tongue je ne sais quoi that your inferior steed will never have and that, frankly, most folks just don't get.

    Shhh -- thank goodness there are a few of us rational folks out here, buying up the truly good cars and leaving the dregs for the other poor slobs. Poor kids, they don't even know who they are, but WE do, don't we?

    Keep it under your hat, pretend you agree when someone says their brand new MSTSA635X530GSE45SRL is "clearly and objectively" the best car, just smile and nod knowingly. :blush:

    Quickly glance at them, and what ever you do, don't make eye contact. :shades:
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    I'm in the middle of reading a book that actually contributes to this discussion. Malcolm Gladwell's Blink talks about how an unconscious brain process makes certain kinds of decisions for us way before our rational, conscious mind analytically weighs and balances and arrives at a decision. Sometimes (like a pro quarterback finding the best receiver) it makes a good decision; sometimes (when a deep prejudice comes out), it makes a bad decision.

    Sounds to me that, like markcincinnati says, we make our car-buying decision quickly and non-rationally based on style and attractiveness and then spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out a rationale for it.

    At least that's the way the rest of you folks do it. I'm purely rational, of course. ;)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Oh yea, I'm absolutely rational, too.

    Almost forgot.

    And, Blink is a great book, FWIW.

    Another one I like is THRIPPPPPPPPPPP! :P

    Seriously, Blink is worthwhile, THRIPPPPPPPP! is just for fun! :surprise:
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I am so happy for you Charlie=====Tony
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Pat, Tony:

    Thanks for the good feelings about this outcome.

    Charlie
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Yeah, me too. You helped expand the definition of buyers remorse, writ large, but all's well that ends well.

    Your saga should give us all pause when we choose a new vehicle with which we expect to spend the next few/several years.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    Style indeed is an important factor in choosing a car at this level. Let's also not forget prestige. Then there is the indescribable feeling that you get from the car. Have you ever actually looked forward to a traffic jam as it gives you more time in your car?

    And I'm sorry - it may in fact be the "best" car indeed but the M, and especially its rear end, needs a restyling. There is that style thing again.
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    After having received something like 10 nasty and irrelevant personal attacks, I want to congratulate you for being one of the few to actually reply on topic. :)

    No question prestige is a factor for most all LPS buyers. I admit that it matters to me as well, and I'd gladly pay more for prestige value alone. If there's any trade off on the M, IMO, that would be it. (Although it's not so strong a factor for me that I'd sacrifice my other desires.) I do note that the car gets a lot of respect and props wherever I go. (Far more than my last Lexus, and more than my CLK)

    As for style, there's not much to debate here. Personally I love the M's look, but I also love the look of the A-6, and the 5-series. Also, while I'm not too crazy about the E-series, I'd say the CLS beats them all style wise. The CLS-600 was the last car I was considering when I went to the M. That CLS is a great looking car.

    Pete
  • drewsrxdrewsrx Member Posts: 57
    Here is the rest of what they said in the newest C&D comparo:

    1. Infiniti M45 Sport
    Highs: Playful spirit, sports-car steering, excellent chassis, lots of room, best buy of the bunch.
    Lows: Cheesy aluma-look dashboard trim, lane-departure warning system.
    Verdict: Even without the price advantage, a top-notch, no-excuses player in the luxo-sports-sedan game.

    2. BMW 550i Sport
    Highs: Unerring dynamics, seductively smooth power, superb comfort seats.
    Lows: Exasperating iDrive, skimpy small-object stowage, clutch-your-heart price.
    Verdict: A flawless driving machine diminished by pricey options and an infernal device.

    3. Mercedes-Benz E550 Sport
    Highs: Megawatt muscle, understated good looks, seven-speed automatic.
    Lows: Flaccid handling responses, noisy HVAC system, seven-speed automatic manual mode.
    Verdict: A superb cross-country ride, but hold the decreasing radii.

    4. Lexus GS450h
    Highs: Uptown interior, user friendly secondary controls, delivers on performance-hybrid promise.
    Lows: Numb steering, endless cycling of CVT, asthmatic power-train sounds.
    Verdict: Engineering that's easy to appreciate in a car that's hard to love.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I wonder if magazine editor will ever shut up about iDrive and MMI and similar gadgets? Perhaps when the oldies die, younger ones who are more used to MMI and iDrive and computers in general will change the tune...

    I have used both MMI and iDrive and the only problem I have with them is that one scrolls down by going clockwise, the other counterclockwise...

    -Paul
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My style remarks almost completely forgot Prestige -- that is a good point.

    And, I wonder, too, if prestige is a big draw and you are NOT particularly impressed with the car's style, if you grow to like the looks of the car after acquisition?

    The BMW 5's to this day look like Pontiacs to me. Now, since that may mean I find them gorgeous, or I may find them not so gorgeous, I just wonder were I to have gone with the cat eyed 5 look, if I would have found its look would grow on me.

    I liked the A6 (my current car) from the side "instantly."

    I am OK with the rear and went from trout mouth to, "I like it" regarding the front end.

    I had originally deposited money on an M35X and I do like the rear end of that car to this day. I am not anti the front end, it is just it looks pretty much like the G35, so much so, I often need to do a double take.

    The Prestige buyer, I am assuming, would never buy either the A6 or the M -- rather they would limit themselves, ?, perhaps to the other two Germans.

    My father-in-law, of course, still thinks the Cadillac is "the world standard."

    I have no axe to grind with the STS, and in fact have found it to be very qualified to run with this pack, at least when equipped with the bits that make it handle to its potential.

    Who am I kidding, with the possible exception of the Lexus, I probably would be pleased and proud to have any of these LPS cars, they just keep getting closer and closer to each other. The Lexus, for whatever reason, can't seem to "get no respect" in terms of its "handling," in that it seems to be called cushy and numb, but neither term seems to be intended to suggest they are meant to be a compliment.

    Oh wait, how 'bout this: Lexus: Comfortably Numb, with Pink Floyd underneath.
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    Relating to the MMI and iDrive, are two of the things I really enjoy about the M:

    1) The great majority of every day controls can be accessed instantly and intuitively from the dashboard, with physical buttons arranged in a very logical layout, and with a very silky feel. (In contrast, the buttons on my CLK, and in the S500 I had, have a really unpleasant feel to them. Many every day items in most LPS's are deeply hidden in the menuing system) Some of you may not like the look of those buttons, and others may agree with me that the whole dash, with its buttons and curved wood (or textured aluminum), looks great.

    2) For the less frequently used settings, steering wheel controls allow you navigate and choose from all of the M's menus, while keeping your hands on the wheel. Where they belong, IMO.

    Pete
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Lexus, for whatever reason, can't seem to "get no respect" in terms of its "handling," in that it seems to be called cushy and numb, but neither terms seems to be intended to suggest they are meant to be a compliment.

    What's aggrivating about the way Lexus designs products is that every Lexus has to be "a Lexus" and to the company that seems to mean limited feel, too easy steering, and overly cushy suspensions that get upset when pushed hard. Thats fine in the ES and LS. That doesn't mean every Lexus has to be that way. The Altezza\IS300 proves that Toyota does know how to make a properly sporty car with great steering feel if they really want to. The IS350 was their chance to go toe-to-toe with the 3 series, but they backed down and played it Lexus safe.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "For the less frequently used settings, steering wheel controls allow you navigate and choose from all of the M's menus, while keeping your hands on the wheel. Where they belong, IMO."

    Pete,

    Your opinions don't seem humble at all. ;) I think that's what has allowed your comments to catalyze such energetic responses and discussions. It's an ingredient of the whole experience I assume many of us come looking for on these forums.
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    Your opinions don't seem humble at all. I think that's what has allowed your comments to catalyze such energetic responses and discussions. It's an ingredient of the whole experience I assume many of us come looking for on these forums.

    I humbly apologize for what seems to be a lack of humility. It's really not my intention to antagonize.

    Are you saying that humility is an ingredient people are looking for on these forums or that energetic discussions are that ingredient?

    BTW, I did not count you among those making what I referred to as nasty irrelevant attacks.

    Pete
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    "I humbly apologize for what seems to be a lack of humility."

    LOL

    "Are you saying that humility is an ingredient people are looking for on these forums or that energetic discussions are that ingredient?"

    Energetic discussions.

    "BTW, I did not count you among those making what I referred to as nasty irrelevant attacks."

    I hadn't intended to be attacking and I didn't think you took my remarks as attacks.

    Domenick
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Group hug time. ;-)
  • pete_l_ppete_l_p Member Posts: 322
    Energetic discussions.

    Well good then. And thank you.

    :)

    (And shipo: Well, OK. But only if you insist.)

    Pete
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I agree, having readily accessible buttons for common functions is nice, and Audi/BMW have made strides in doing that. Audi's climate control can be handled via the dials/buttons on the dash. BMW's can control stereo functions on the steering wheel and some buttons around the CD player on the dash.

    Everybody seems to forget though that pretty much any screen in BMW's iDrive is accessible via Voice Command. Press a button on the wheel to activate it, enter command, and there ya go.

    I will also admit that Japanese LPS's like Infiniti, Acura, etc have a much better way of doing it, but I still like the functionality all stored in one spot. Perhaps a mix of iDrive/MMI functionality with Infiniti/Acura user friendliness would be good.

    My experiences with LPS sedans tells me that I like whatever my wife likes. :) Her likes are not based so much on the P in LPS, but the L and the S. She picked her ride not on prestige, but because she liked the color combinations, the fact that it was not a common color, and that it rode like a dream for her. I wanted a V8 option, but was overruled and the price would have been higher than we could go at that time. I'm willing to admit that we got what she wanted, but keeping the spouse happy is part of a good marriage. Besides, most of the time, she has good taste (so I wonder why she picked me sometimes) and I can't complain. She indulges my Jeep hobby (most of the time) so it is a win-win.

    -Paul
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Back in the days when smoking (in a car) was even done, a friend of mine -- a smoker -- would kid me and say "Mark gets a new car every time the ash tray gets full."

    Since I am not a smoker, I only related to this comment in a symbolic way. My friend, now not a smoker (and I never permitted him to smoke in my cars in any case), meant I replaced my cars pretty often and with great regularity. Indeed, I have never had a car beyond the original factory warranty, to this day. Remember, I am of the belief that repairing cars, especially European cars is "breathtakingly expensive," so much so that it is less costly to maintain a permanent car payment (on the rental basis of equal to or less than 39 months.)

    Please don't try to burst my bubble. :blush:

    Well, truth be told, one of the triggers of this replacement behavior -- in addition to the above remark -- is I "get the itch." I have, as pretty close friends, folks who own dealerships or who sell cars for a living and we share the passion for new, cool cars. These friends are often offering up drives of the flavor of the month (and well, it would be rude NOT to test drive the cars they offer, wouldn't it?) Hence, for years, my 1978 model would begat a 1980 and . . a 1995 would be followed by a 1997 then by a 1999 and a 2000 and a 2001 and so on.

    However, therefore, notwithstanding, something has changed (and the change has affected by wife, too.)

    My 2005 A6 was in for its 25,000 mile check up (oil change, really.) The Audi Advantage (at this point, anyway) and the Dealer's practice, thus far, is to give an A6 customer an A6 loaner. My 2005 A6 is a fully loaded (98% loaded) 3.2 version. My loaner was a 2006 "premium package, cold weather package" (or whatever they called the stuff I have in mine in 2006) 3.2 version with practically no miles on it (a couple thousand.) It was silver, it had black leather, it had 18" wheels but none of the technology package stuff I have come to love. It did have a radio, of course, but NOT sat radio.

    My day involved about 100 miles of mostly local greater Cincinnati driving and I was pleased to have a "brand new" A6 as a loaner rather than one of the many Enterprise Compacts that I have had over the years if I get to the dealer too late in the day to be able to use their pool of A3's, A4's and A6's (once I got an A8 and once an S4 -- albeit with an auto trans.)

    So, I am enjoying my day in my new (newer than mine) A6. But wait, a first -- an epiphany, no kidding, a real epiphany (as it relates to cars, at least) -- for me at least, I did not see any need to even ask my favorite salesperson if I could "early out" and "upgrade" to a new A6. This car did not feel more powerful, more nimble, quieter, more comfortable, more competent, "more" (or better) anything in any way.

    Typically once I get to about 20 - 30,000 miles, I am at least a little tired of my cars (even Audis, well, cut off my legs and call me shorty!) And, as if part of a subtle marketing tool, the "loaner" cars seem to spark this tiredness. The new(er) loaner cars usually have features, functions, performance -- SOMETHING -- that gets me thinking, "time to trade up."

    Now, something really untoward could happen, I suppose, to change my mind (perhaps the new B8 A4 with my "dream" engine -- a 3.2T FSI -- underhood), but just this week I ordered new Pirelli PZero Nero M+S tires (UHP All Seasons to replace the HP Grand Touring OEM's) for my A6 and I am truly looking forward to a transformed handling experience due to this upgrade.

    My wife of the phrase "I love my X3," too, has no itch (at least NOT to leave the X3 family, even if she is curious about the added grunt of the new X3's 3.0 260HP motivator), no "wandering -- or wondering -- eye" for a new ride.

    Of course, I cannot lay claim to knowing if this is true for you -- especially if "you" are one of the relatively early adopters of this new breed of LPS (such as the Infiniti M, Acura RL or even STS) -- but here is one A6 driver who has come to the conclusion that "they really screwed this one together exceptionally well."

    I have a supply of Calamine Lotion I apparently have no current need for -- I can let you have it -- CHEAP!
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "Group hug time"

    Pat,

    Isn't there some rule about explicit sexual content on this forum?

    :)

    Charlie
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Oh dear, I do believe that I'm in trouble. :blush:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So, I am enjoying my day in my new (newer than mine) A6. But wait, a first -- an epiphany, no kidding, a real epiphany (as it relates to cars, at least) -- for me at least, I did not see any need to even ask my favorite salesperson if I could "early out" and "upgrade" to a new A6. This car did not feel more powerful, more nimble, quieter, more comfortable, more competent, "more" (or better) anything in any way.

    I love new cars as well, but with the way Japanese cars generally work (very light refresh after 3 years on the market, with a redesign after 6) there just isn't a need for me to upgrade often. I also think cars are at their best during the 20K-60K mile period. Magazine tests often show that cars get faster and handle better after they have broken in properly. If you're constantly getting new cars, you have to deal with the annoyance of babying the car for the first thousand miles, and then waiting for it to "settle in" for the next 10K miles.

    Also, while my itch for the latest and greatest cars is strong, my itch for the latest and greatest in electronics is several times stronger, and I tend to spend a lot more time at the audio dealer than the car dealer. I just ordered a new power conditioner, a PS Audio Power Plant that I can't wait to get in my system. PS says that the design was inspired by BMW, so this is very loosely car related :) Previous PS regenerators were power hogs, with 50% of the wall's AC going to waste as heat. They also couldn't deliver enough power to my amps, so I've been using Richard Gray units. This new one though is absolutely state of the art.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I know what you mean, I just made the leap to HD DVD and HD Tivo with DirecTV and the three LNB and the receiver with dual HD tuners. My first HD DVD just came today, "Serenity."

    Shhh, don't tell anyone, I could actually possibly, maybe, perhaps, actually see keeping this A6 beyond the lease.

    :confuse:

    Audi's C5 came to the US in 1998 and remained pretty much the same through the 2004 MY. The 2007's at my dealer -- most of them -- are not as well equipped (and most don't even have the Premium Leather) as mine.

    The SLine is still pretty sexy, but I am hoping the UHP new shoes will diminish my SLine lust somewhat to a medium amount. Upgrading the tires on my first A6 V8 had that effect back in 2000, at least and again on my 2003 allroad.

    Hope springs. . . .

    This just in, new S6 on the showroom floor -- TANG!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I know what you mean, I just made the leap to HD DVD and HD Tivo with DirecTV and the three LNB and the receiver with dual HD tuners. My first HD DVD just came today, "Serenity."

    Are you using the Toshiba HD-XA1? How is it? I'm somewhat interested in HD-DVD (especially after seeing how lousy the Samsung BR player is) but the fact that it's basically a PC complete with a Pentium 4 processor really turns me off. Very bad for airborne and powerline EMI\RF distortion, which I've spent thousands to keep out of my systems wiring and transformers.

    To me, the big potential of both high def disc formats is the audio side, Dolby and DTS HD uncompressed audio. That should make concert HD discs absolutely spectacular. Unfortunately no current HD disc player or SSP can support the new formats, or the HDMI 1.3 interface required for it. Also, the players from both camps are currently using 5.25" PC bay drives for transports, not exactly audio grade.
Sign In or Register to comment.