Luxury Performance Sedans

sfcharlie · October 2006

The Japanese are like us, they want imports. No Lincoln or Cadillac is as impressive to (most) Americans than a Mercedes or BMW. The same is true in Japan, only its Lexus stuck being the "domestic choice"."

The Germans, then, it would appear, are not like us, in wanting imports.

lexusguy · October 2006

The Germans, then, it would appear, are not like us, in wanting imports.

Its not just Germany, but most of western Europe. I think some of it has to do with protectionist import tariffs, (a 350Z in the UK is the equivalent of $50K+) but I also think that Europeans generally like to drive European cars. Germany invented the car, its hard to compete with that.

markcincinnati · October 2006

I think, too, that it has something to do with the paucity of diesel offerings from elsewhere.

In Europe, in Germany, 70% of the LPS cars are diesel. Audi sells 50% diesel there, in fact.

Overall the numbers for diesel in Europe are ~ 1 in 3. Where are they gonna import from that can give them what they want, at this time?

rockylee · October 2006

Well who in theor right mind wouldn't want a Audi diesel ? :surprise: It only gets 35 mpg hwy and has enough torque to fimly implant your backside in your seat.

Rocky

sfcharlie · October 2006

Rocky, you, I believe, just wrote in the German car-enthusiast dialect

Charlie

rockylee · October 2006

Well I'm a big fan of the 4,2 V-8 diesel. I've read alot of good reviews and as Angus McKenzie said from Motor Trend it might be the best diesel engine in the world. So yeah I like that kind of German engineering, even though I'd never be able to afford such a luxury.

Rocky

markcincinnati · October 2006

I got behind the wheel (and did not drive it) of a S6. It was, as I recall, $77K. It had the technology package and some other single options, but it was well equipped.

While talking with my long time sales rep he got a call that says his first sold S8 will be in Oct 16. MSRP $122K.

The S8 is the SWB version of the A8 chassis, yes?

The engine is the same as is in the S6 (a few HP different.)

The S8 had the $7000 B&O sound system and that counts for something, I guess.

My "were I to be granted one wish" for a free Audi car WAS an S8. Perhaps if it were free, that wish would stand.

But, from the behind the wheel perch of an S6, I just wonder what extras would be gained in the S8 -- performance? Do Dads?

The S6 may be, at this moment, the ultimate LPS car.

The M5, I can only assume, will be above that and remain at the top of the heap until or unless an RS6 comes out and then, who knows.

Mercedes AMG must have something that would be competitive, what, pray tell is it?

Do any of the Japanese brands offer the jump to ludicrous speed (Dark Helmet?) :confuse:

laurasdada · October 2006

Funny, Mark. You don't look Druish... Underrated flick, imo. Nice referenece. :shades:

markcincinnati · October 2006

You are correct, I am not Druish, but I am half-man, half-dog, I'm a MOG, I'm my own best friend! :surprise:

breld · October 2006

Well, I'm just catching up on all the recent posts, including the ramblings on the woes of the stick shift.

My 2007 530xi 6 speed manual is due to arrive in about two weeks. Sounds like I better hold onto it for my 3 year old to drive when he turns 16, if there are any hopes of him learning what will be an "ancient art."

It does seem that most of the traditional "arguments" for a stick, such as increased control, are losing ground. But, I think one poster summed it up best, when he/she essentially stated that it's simply "more fun." I simply enjoy driving my TSX around town, including in heavy traffic. It's certainly not a particularly fast car, regardless of transmission, but the actual exercise of manually shifting the gears makes the experience so much more engaging.

domenickamarc · October 2006

Amazingly different ways of thinking about what makes a car terrific or recommendable...

[German] Global Insight analysts Phillip Rosengarten and Christopher Stuermer have written a new book titled "Premium Power, The Secret Of Success Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche And Audi." In it, they describe how "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Range Rover, and Volvo are superior to "mere luxury cars" from Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce, because they continuously set new high standards. Rosengarten calls Lexus' European sales of about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful." He also says a brand's history is important to prestige. "Without heritage, which means a glorious history and brand tradition, it will not be easy to establish a successful luxury brand in Europe, not to mention establish a premium brand. All the more so as Lexus has many American luxury-style elements with its design orientation geared towards other premium brands instead of creating its own unique elements, and it cannot showcase any important innovations," he said."

Now an excerpt from Consumer Reports' comparative assessment of Lexus IS 250, BMW 325i, Audi A4, Cadillac CTS, MB C230, and Saab 9-3: Having noted good things about the Lexus IS 250 --refinement, interior craftsmanship, easy-to-use controls, and something called "competent performance" -- CR adds that "the IS has "a fidgety ride and the steering lacks feel, making it less fun to drive than some peers. The ride is stiff and jittery [yet, somehow, "competent"]. The IS 250 is one of three of these cars CR recommends to consumers (along with the Audi A4 and the Cadillac CTS). It does not recommend the BMW 325i which it describes as "more fun to drive than the IS 250. It's taut and agile (CR says the IS 250 is not agile), with a smooth engine and a responsive transmission." But they don't recommend it.

cdnpinhead · October 2006

. . .what extras would be gained in the S8 -- performance? Do Dads?

What else is there for the people in this segment, most of whom lease?

I keep cars for 5-10 years and have been told from time to time that the reason others lease (among others) is to be in possession of the "latest & greatest." That would be do-dads where I come from. The computer or digital camera (or audio equipment) I bought four years ago still does just what I bought it for then. Newer stuff does more things & probably costs less. Sunk cost to me -- I don't care.

The latest & greatest is (are?) not my thing, but seem(s) to be important to many others.

sfcharlie · October 2006

"I keep cars for 5-10 years"

I've done that sometimes and, at other times leased for two or three years. I'm always happy to find a comment like this of yours, keeping that sensibility alive in this conversation.

What car do drive now and how many years into are you?

warthog · October 2006

As we all know, with CR reliability trumps all. I think they would recommend a Model T over a modern BMW, or MB, or Lexus for that matter, if the ancient Ford somehow came out more "reliable" in their estimation.

lexusguy · October 2006

Do any of the Japanese brands offer the jump to ludicrous speed (Dark Helmet?)

Not in the LPS arena, no. Ultimate performance to a Japanese company is not "let's take one of our 4,000lb. luxury cars, give it a suspension overhaul, and insert a rocket motor." Thats a very German idea.

Here's the issues: 1. The current M is the first Japanese luxury sedan (at least in our market) that can even handle the "go faster" treatment. The GS400 would've been a very dangerous car with 400+hp on tap.

2. Japan doesn't really have any rocket engines, at least not in the "luxury rocket" sense. The Lexus 4.6 is the biggest, most powerful Japanese V8 ever available in the US. There may be bigger engines in the JD market, but I don't know of any in mass production.

Japan's UHP cars have always been very small and lightweight, with small displacement 4 and 6 cylinder engines, and massive turbocharging. This method allowed cars like the Supra TT and GT-R to have *wink wink* 276hp. Since Japanese automakers are no longer constrained by the 276hp limitation, the door is open for big, German style monsters. The Lexus GT V8 engine is probably going to show up in the IS, and the G or M will probably get the GT-R's twin turbo 6.

I assume the next TL is going to have SH-AWD, as Acura seems to want to offer that across their entire line. Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.

lexusguy · October 2006

As we all know, with CR reliability trumps all. I think they would recommend a Model T over a modern BMW, or MB, or Lexus for that matter, if the ancient Ford somehow came out more "reliable" in their estimation.

Thats not really true. They have their reliability ratings, and then the overall rating, which covers everything else about the car. They wont recommend cars that score "below average" in reliability, but that doesn't automatically mean that the most reliable cars get the best overall scores. Look at the E class vs. the GS. They rate the E 3rd from the top in the luxury category, despite it getting the full black dot for reliability. The GS has perfect reliability scores, but its overall rank is way down at the bottom.

hedrick998 · October 2006

Hi Folks,
I'm trying to decide between a 525xi and 530xi (automatic transmission). I like the extra kick of the 530 but I don't like it enough to tolerate a gas mileage plummet associated with the additional horsepower. Does anyone know if/how much gas mileage would decrease with the larger engine. I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.
Thanks.

shipo · October 2006

I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.

You're correct, you cannot trust the EPA. My own experience (and that of many other BMW drivers) is that the 530i/xi is capable of as good as, or better mileage than the 525i/xi siblings, and both engines can easily beat the EPA numbers.

Best Regards,
Shipo

rockylee · October 2006

I assume the next TL is going to have SH-AWD, as Acura seems to want to offer that across their entire line. Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.

That's the rumor I've heard for the 09' TL. If that is true, my god us consumers will have even more difficult of a time ahead of us on choosing.

Rocky

rockylee · October 2006

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117081

Now here's one of my dream cars.

Rocky

markcincinnati · October 2006

The 525xi with a manual transmission MIGHT give you "almost" the performance of the 530xi auto.

The two cars, here, use the same size engine.

The 530xi, according to sources OTHER than the EPA, apparently, is more efficient.

If you are going with the auto trans (and you KNOW I am torn on that from a "fun" vs "control" perspective) the 530xi certainly seems to be the better choice (assuming you are looking at this from an MPG perspective -- which, if I may, seems a bit odd considering the MSRP differences you would have to overcome if buying the lowest TCO was one of your top considerations.)

Go with the 530xi. OR, wait for the almost certain to be sold: 528xi (230HP)or 535xi (turbo @ 300HP with improved MPG's.)

markcincinnati · October 2006

The latest and greatest are, for me, often draws. With a virtually all optioned 2005 A6, there is nothing in a 2007 clone of my A6 that would make it worth extra money -- no, not even the back up camera and the color trip computer (mine is only red and black.)

My question, now that I have configured both an S6 and S8 and actually sat in an S6 is "where is the extra $25 to $35 thousand dollars" the S8 will seem to command?

Is it size? Is it features (other than the B&O sound system?)

Were I to acquire one of these cars, it would seem that you are correct -- and, as always, I appreciate the somewhat contrarian view (since, as you pointed out, most of the LPS cars are leased -- but often they are less expensive to do so due to generous sub-venting programs.)

The depreciation hit on an S8 will be "breathtaking" I am sure.

I just put new shoes on my 25,000 mile young A6. Nothing is not doing what I want, nothing has broken (other than the initial bout of bad pushbutton starters) -- and other than my none too secret desire for a diesel, I can see an argument for KEEPING this car.

Another sub vented lease on another German (and possibly non - German) car may change my mind. But, now at 55, I am much less likely to feel the need for the new wheels in 18 months.

But a new product COULD certainly change that attitude.

The question still stands, what makes up the 5 figure difference in the two siblings?

dewey · October 2006

Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.

Torque steer seems to be a key complaint about the FWD TL. All powerful FWD cars need to be equipped with a good torque steer management system. Honda engineers have not yet figured out how to make a great torque steer management system that can channel all the power to the road through a limited slip differential.

Before the new MazdaSpeed3 was introduced I thought it would be AWD. But I was quite surprised to hear that the 263Hp/280lb-ft torque MazdaSpeed3 would be avaiallble only in FWD. What amazed me even more were the positive Mazda3Speed reviews that did not even mention torque steer as an issue.

Obviously Mazda engineers have designed a superior torque steer management system that Honda/Acura lacks.

purplem46 · October 2006

They don't have "uber-power" now, but they will. The 2008 Nissan GT-R "Skyline" will be the first true Japanese super performance/Luxo car to date (available in the US). Lexus will follow in the not to distant future (LFA 10 cylinder).

I love the horsepower wars. I just wish there was somewhere to drive them as they were intended to be driven, safely/legally. I say we lobby for a new, U.S. Autobahn.

lexusguy · October 2006

I'm trying to decide between a 525xi and 530xi (automatic transmission). I like the extra kick of the 530 but I don't like it enough to tolerate a gas mileage plummet associated with the additional horsepower. Does anyone know if/how much gas mileage would decrease with the larger engine. I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.
Thanks.

Get the 530xi. They will be close enough for it not to matter. You should also consider that you'll have to keep the 525xi "on the boil" for things like passing, merging, etc. Full throttle is not great for mpg. With the 530xi you could take a more relaxed approach, and ultimately save gas. Besides, spending an extra few dollars on gas is an easy thing to get over. One less trip to Starbucks a week. Suffering from "I should've gotten the bigger engine" syndrome, however, is not.

lexusguy · October 2006

I just put new shoes on my 25,000 mile young A6. Nothing is not doing what I want, nothing has broken (other than the initial bout of bad pushbutton starters) -- and other than my none too secret desire for a diesel, I can see an argument for KEEPING this car.

What about refresh time, '08? I assume you're going to want some of that.

lexusguy · October 2006

They don't have "uber-power" now, but they will. The 2008 Nissan GT-R "Skyline" will be the first true Japanese super performance/Luxo car to date (available in the US). Lexus will follow in the not to distant future (LFA 10 cylinder).

I'm not sure how much "luxo" the GT-R will have. Previous GT-R's have been all business on the inside. Then again, the same could be said about 911s previous to the 996 generation or so.

purplem46 · October 2006

re the GTR: I'm assuming about as "luxo" as a BMW M car. Which like you say, is on the sparse side, with the exception of gadgetry.

markcincinnati · October 2006

That has been a recurring theme for me -- the '05 - '07 A6's (for instance) are very similar. My all optioned '05 does not have a backup camera.

Most of the '07's don't either, but it can be had.

A new '07 A6 configured as mine is would be almost impossible to pick out from a lot full of 05's - 07's.

New functions, features, safety, or whatever haven't come as quickly this cycle.

My previous Audis, on the other hand, did seem to come with more and more and more even when I would get them every other MY.

I was pumping gas the other day and a person came up to me and said how do you like your A6 -- he thought mine was either an '06 or '07, and he had just ordered an '07.

When I told him mine was an '05 he said, "it looks brand new."

It drives that way too.

Sure an '08 B8 A4 or Whatever A6 or BMW or Infiniti M35X or whatever it is called then, may be tempting -- if it brings something new to the table other than a new style.

I've come to the conclusion that only the very well informed even KNOW what MY they are looking at.

I try to keep up and it is difficult.

Can you really tell a 2005.5 A4 from an '07 A4, etc?

I look at the BMW's and have sometimes the same issues -- without a guidebook, I can't tell if it is a 2006 5 or a 2007 -- heck, I am not even sure if it might not be a 2005.

Only when the major body style comes along do I know for sure.

As I find myself aging, I find (somewhat in contradiction to my past behavior) some genuine fondness for my car even with 25K miles on it.

I have previously written about "the itch."

I am not saying I will not "itch again" -- I am noting a satisfaction with this vehicle that is a pleasant surprise.

Now that I have my new tires, I can't wait to drive it next.

Just like it was when it was at 0 miles.

This may pass.

This may pass.

:confuse:

domenickamarc · October 2006

According to Road and Track ... "Late in 2009 Audi will launch a 4-door coupe similar to the Mercedes CLS. It will use an all-new Modular Longitudinal Platform (MLP) that will eventually be used on all new Audis from A4 upward...Engine choices will include a new V-6 and a V-8, power ranging from 300-500 bhp (the latter being the S7 version) and prices ranging from $50,000-$100,000."

Just to make it harder for the itch to pass

sfcharlie · October 2006

Tuner MTM has put together an MTM-TT where the 2.0 TFSI, after being souped up by MTM, outputs at least 245 bhp (355 Nm at 1,850 rpm). In addition to this, MTM offers 250 (363 Nm/1,850 rpm), 272 (370 Nm/1,850 rpm), and a 313 bhp (395 Nm/ 3,230 rpm) versions.

Kirstie_H · October 2006

A reporter from a large daily newspaper is looking to speak to Mercedes-Benz owners in the Washington DC area about the expectations you have with the car when you purchase it and any problems youve had to deal with. Please provide your daytime contact info to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Monday, October 16, 2006.

domenickamarc · October 2006

Although, as one recent post pointed out, CR isn't as simple-minded in its "ratings" of cars as it sometimes seems, or as sometimes is alleged (for example, they often rate the Passat first or second on family sedan list, despite its not being near top of their reliability scoring), nonetheless, I believe there are enough people who are mostly swayed by the reliability ratings themselves or by CR's "recommendations". When CR puts a group of cars together and says: "we recommend you buy this one, in fact, it's the only one in the group that we recommend," that's a powerful market force.

For example, CR has a category "ultra-performance & luxury sports cars". The category includes everything from Porsche 911 Carrera S to BMW 650i coupe to Cadillac XLR Base. The only car they recommend in this class is the $65,0000 Lexus SC, which they find to have "handling that feels no more agile than on ordinary sedan," with "a harsh ride that doesn't befit a luxury car," and overall performance that makes it not "game for driving with enthusiasm."

If a CR reader was considering venturing into one of these "ultra-performance & luxury sports cars," to whatever extent they were influenced by CR, they'd probably tend to back off and not buy any of the cars. The magazine's rhetoric, which is the total deciding factor for a significant number of car buyers who have described their decision-making to me, has made a big contribution to a mind-change about cars: aim for 365 days of trouble-free, emotion-free driving and look elsewhere to be engaged with the world around you.

sfcharlie · October 2006

More of the same...

Mercedes boss Eckhard Cordes launched a costly quality offensive designed to cut the number of defects and catch them before cars leave the factory. That involved forging a new quality unit and making sure engineers, designers, and production and assembly managers make no key decision on engineering or purchasing without the approval of quality managers. Long-term, the fix lies in designing cars that are less complex, stripping out excess electronics and bolstering testing before new models go into production. Paul Halata, president and CEO of Mercedes USA, insists the company's efforts to improve quality are finally showing. In the latest J.D. Power initial quality survey, Mercedes moved up from tenth in 2004 with 106 problems per 100 vehicles to fifth with 104. Many analysts are skeptical. "It's really too soon to tell on Mercedes quality," says Albrecht Denninghof, an analyst at HVB Group in Munich. "We need about 12 months to see if there are still problems."

Moved up by reducing problems from 1.06 per vehicle to 1.04?

What can such a jump mean? Most readers will just see "moved from tenth to fifth". Like checking in on a stock you own.

lexusguy · October 2006

If a CR reader was considering venturing into one of these "ultra-performance & luxury sports cars," to whatever extent they were influenced by CR, they'd probably tend to back off and not buy any of the cars. The magazine's rhetoric, which is the total deciding factor for a significant number of car buyers who have described their decision-making to me, has made a big contribution to a mind-change about cars: aim for 365 days of trouble-free, emotion-free driving and look elsewhere to be engaged with the world around you.

I think CR's influence at that level is marginal at best. I seriously doubt that anyone who is genuinely interested in a 911 or 650i is going to back out because it doesn't have the "red check". CR probably has a part in helping Camry and Accord to dominate the family sedan market. Those are the cars that CR readers actually buy.

Anyone who buys a SC430 over the competition was going to buy a Lexus anyway. I don't think CR would really be a factor there.

carnaught · October 2006

For example, CR has a category "ultra-performance & luxury sports cars".........The only car they recommend in this class is the $65,0000 Lexus SC, which they find to have "handling that feels no more agile than on ordinary sedan," with "a harsh ride that doesn't befit a luxury car," and overall performance that makes it not "game for driving with enthusiasm."

I'm not a real CR proponent especially when it comes to cars, but their description of the SC430 was right-on. (I had one.)

lansdownemike · October 2006

I was with you up until your final sentence which, I fear, is a bit overstated: "aim for 365 days of trouble-free, emotion-free driving and look elsewhere to be engaged with the world around you." As was noted elsewhere, they rank their cars independently of the reliability, and then they require average (or above) reliability and a few other considerations to be recommended. Their rankings, aside from reliability, aren't far from what most people on this board would think and really don't represent "emotion-free driving." For everyone's information, their first five cars in the "Ultra-performance and Luxury Sports Car" class are the 911 Carrera S, the Z06, Boxster, SL550 and 650i. Hardly emotion-free.

For myself, I've just had a 4 1/2 year reliability nightmare with my BMW X5 4.4. I've had a new transmission, I've had it in for work on the fancy suspension 4 times, and I could go on and on. I knew that the X5 didn't have a great reputation for reliability (thanks to CR) when I bought it and I'm paying the price. For my next ride, I think I'd like a few years of a reliable LPS, so I'm ranking the M a little higher than I would have had it not been for my personal experience. I'm also thinking about the Volvo S80 because they (like BMW) are putting new processes in place to address the reliability issues.

I'm not suggesting that everyone should follow CR slavishly, but for me reliability is a useful piece of information, and for my next car, after a really ugly few years, it's a piece of information that is particularly important.

PS: they also recommend the Nissan 350Z and the BMW z4 in addition to the SC430.

lexusguy · October 2006

The SC's ride quality issues can be fixed by dumping the run-flats for real tires, just hope you don't get a flat. Unfortunately, tires can't make the car less ugly.

domenickamarc · October 2006

You make some good counterpoints to my comments.

I was looking at the October 2006 issue of CR, in which the Nissan 350Z and the BMW z4 were not including the comparison, although they are recommended on the sidebar chart.

And, also, as you say, CR routinely talks about handling, engaging drive quality, fun-factor, etc.

My main point was that, in the end, they convey the sense that, when it comes to recommending a car, the only solid basis is their reliability rating. I think that they have been believed by many buyers (although, again, I agree with your toning down of my comments, in that they are probably less influential with buyers of this particular group of cars than with buyers of family sedans, where they exert enormous influence). It would seem more honest to say that they cannot recommend any car, in a comparo where the only one that meets their reliability standard is, according to them, a mediocre driving experience (that's what led to the comment with which you took issue, about what is implied when you suggest someone buy a car with what you yourself have assessed to be mediocre driving quality). To do what they do, does seem to me to imply that, taking all factors into account, they recommend you choose a car they don't think is engaging or enjoyable, just because you'll avoid a few unscheduled service visits. That's how it reads to me.

My main problem with CR and JDP is that such ratings are presented by them in ways designed partly to inform and partly to inflate, through over-dramatizing of the statistical significance of the ratings, the importance of CR and JDP.

lexusguy · October 2006

To do what they do, does seem to me to imply that, taking all factors into account, they recommend you choose a car they don't think is engaging or enjoyable, just because you'll avoid a few unscheduled service visits. That's how it reads to me.

Yeah, I can see that. I think what CR is trying to say is that while we didnt necessarily like the car, owners say its reliable, so if you like it, by all means. Perhaps they should change the "recommended" tag to "reliable" or something like that. Something to further differentiate the reliability score from the overall score.

domenickamarc · October 2006

A frustrating personal experience with a car or SUV, such as the BMW X5 mentioned a recent post, would definitely weigh heavily on my mind in going out to buy a replacement.

Figuring out how that bad experience and/or CR's assessment of the X5 should, if at all, influence anyone else is a different issue.

I don't believe that we have the kind of reliability statistics (from either CR or JDP) that is very helpful. Use of statistics is tricky, even in very scientific forums, but as reported by CR and JDP none of us could figure out what the probability is that an M will be more reliable than, say, a BMW 530i. By choosing an M over a 530 will I be decreasing my chances of unscheduled service by 2%, 10%, 50%. No way to know from CR. And, all JDP lets us know is that, the most reliable model averages 1 or 2 unscheduled service stops in three year and the least reliable averages 3 or 4.

Similarly, anecdotal information is easily balanced by other anecdotal data. I have lunch every few weeks with a man who has owned a BMW 328i for seven years and bought an X5 about three years ago -- a 2003, I think. He was concerned that the X5 is produced at the Spartanburg plant in South Carolina and he went with the 3.0i that is powered by the 225-horsepower 3.0-liter inline six because he associates BMW with that famous inline-6 cylinder and he thinks that might have increased the probability of his trouble-free experience, since, according to what he's read in CR, for some reason, owners of the X5 Inline-6 report fewer problems than owners of the X5 V-8 . He says both of his BMWs are enjoyable and have been what he considers to be trouble-free. The X5 has had two unscheduled service days in three years. When I emailed him the "nightmare" X5 anecdote, he wrote back saying that he's going to replace his X5 with a new one, sooner rather than later if the upcoming design change "instantly infatuates" him.

To show how anecdotal reports work in completely chaotic ways, the irony is that this man is about to give his son the 328i and he's shopping for an LPS. He's been skimming Edmunds forums and formed a completely skewed and subjective negative impression of the M, which he summed up: "more complaints about gas mileage than for any other LPS I'm considering" and "four or five people who didn't complain about defects (he found lots of those complaints on MB forum boards, he says), but actually said that, driving it everyday, they had to come to very much dislike the way the car drove" (I had come across those myself, when I was using Edmunds to research my own car purchase and also found that specific odd type of complaint written only about the M), and "only LPS that some auto mag reviews (including Edmunds comparison test, second opinions section) said is noisy" (which he finds completely incompatible with the entire LPS concept). I encouraged him to test-drive the M and I don't really know how influenced he is by such anecdotal data anyway.

lexusguy · October 2006

Sometimes the best data going into buying a car is data like the mpg issues, or the noise, from real life owners (even if its only a few) rather than a bunch of stats about powertrains and electricals. I've driven Ms on three occasions, and really enjoyed driving the car every time. It does have some faults though (as does every car) that I might not like as an actual owner, though. My suggestion would be to take a very long test drive, and try to do every type of driving on as many different roads as possible.

cdnpinhead · October 2006

Well, thank you for asking.

I'm driving a Lincoln LS with a manual. The main reason I own this car is that it came with a manual (the first one for Lincoln in 50 years, BTW). It was part of a brief wet dream that Ford/Lincoln had back in the late '90's having to do with competing with European brands on their own turf (this was before Ford bought Volvo & Jaguar). Anyway, the concept sputtered to its ignominious end earlier this year when the last LS came off the assembly line at the Wixom plant. They "updated" the car in '03 with lots improvements, one of which was to eliminate the manual.

I'm well beyond bitter. I bought into the original concept of a BMW competitor from the U.S., and ended up with a car that you have to review the depreciation numbers to fully appreciate. Depreciation aside, I wanted to get in on the ground floor with a vehicle that would improve year-over-year for decades. This same corporation pumped out another enthusiast car a few years earlier (Merkur), but I wasn't dialed in then. Fool me once. . .

(All) That said, it's a fine car. I'm presently in central Texas enjoying the hill country (where I went to high school), and it's been a delight. The LS turned 100K miles just before I left, and blasting across Texas at 85 (80 is legal -- God bless Texas) on I-10 was pure pleasure. I spent the day today puttering around backroads near San Marcos & many of them were curvy & uncrowded. Wonderful.

I've only driven a few vehicles farther than this one -- my Kenworth truck accumulated over 200K miles in a bit over two years, so it wins for rate of accumulation. The high-mileage champ was my '73 240-Z that I drove off the showroom floor in Edmonton with 3 miles on it. Eleven plus years later it was no match for a Chevy Suburban -- 224K miles. I loved that car.

After the 240, I bought a used Datsun 510 (with 163K miles on it). Put a junkyard engine in it & drove it an additional 106K miles over the next seven years. I modified it quite a bit -- went around corners really well. Sold it to another enthusiast who loaded it on a trailer. It went to a good home. I was pleased.

But, before any of this I drove a used MGB a little over 104K miles in a bit over 3.5 years. This was where I acquired my jones for tight steering & a transmission linkage with no rubber. This car & I went to 44 states & 6 provinces. I could change a generator (this was before alternators) bushing in under half an hour. I could pull an engine in under two hours. Lots of maintenance, but much joy as well.

After the 510, I went for a couple of Mazda Miatas, in honor of the "B". Fun, but no passion. After them, I went for a larger car (Eagle Vision), since I had a "management" job & needed something in which I could take people to lunch. It was great for the first 5 years or so, then went way South. I will never own another car with an automatic transmission, but this one gave me 98K miles, most of which were pleasant.

Our family has owned a couple of Chrysler minivans, the first one for 115K miles ('86 Voyager) & the second for 158K miles ('94 Caravan). Other than the transmission "issues" on the second one, they were more-or-less bulletproof.

As I've said before, for me the vehicle is the means to an end. The end is an excellent driving experience, preferably at 3 in the morning on a totally empty road with the Northern Lights showing, or as the sun comes up rolling down the Fraser Canyon, or as the sun sets across New Mexico on US 60 at 120 mph.

Priceless.

anthonyp · October 2006

Man you do some driving . Thanks for the story Tony

designman · October 2006

Great post.

I'm well beyond bitter. I bought into the original concept of a BMW competitor from the U.S., and ended up with a car that you have to review the depreciation numbers to fully appreciate. Depreciation aside, I wanted to get in on the ground floor with a vehicle that would improve year-over-year for decades.

Yeah, I hear you. Too bad we still have to wait decades for them to earn our trust.

and blasting across Texas at 85 (80 is legal -- God bless Texas) on I-10 was pure pleasure.

On Earth as it is in Texas!

;-)

sfcharlie · October 2006

"I'm driving a Lincoln LS with a manual.

Oh, wow! The Lincoln that came out in 1999 as a 2000 year model and became Motor Trend's 2000 Car of the Year? That was a great American automobile moment! American car version of "Float like a butterfly. Sting like a bee." Relatively light for an LPS, at just under 3700 lb, good power with V6 or V8, and something like BMW's 50/50 front/rear weight balance. I saw a 2001 V8 in the spring, at an Infiniti dealership -- 74K miles, asking $16,000., if I'm recalling correctly. I had once driven a V6 (a used 2001 I talked my BMW dealer into letting me have as a loaner) with the German-made Getrag gearbox which was very smooth, and tight at the same time. Shifting gears was delightful, and although almost a year separated that drive from the test-drive of the V8 with a automatic recently, my impression is that the straight-line acceleration of the stick-shift V6 was as good as that of the V8 with an automatic transmission. That was a lot of car for a low $30K price tag, wasn't it? How bad could the depreciation have been? Or is the bitterness that you were ready to join them in a real American attempt to produce an LPS that driving enthusiasts could love (and, ironically, Lincoln is now considered a very reliable brand -- more reliable than Toyota) and they just wimped out and shut down the experiment (or too few other American drivers saw the opportunity)?

domenickamarc · October 2006

Interesting feature story quoted from Business Week: "The flexibility of BMW's factories allows for a dizzying choice of variations on basic models. At Leipzig, for instance, parts ranging from dashboards and seats to axles and and front ends snake onto overhead conveyor belts to be lowered into the assembly line in precise sequence according to customers' orders. BMW buyers can select everything from engine type to the color of the gear-shift box to a seemingly limitless number of interior trims--and then change their mind and order a completely different configuration as little as five days before production begins…There are so many choices that line workers assemble exactly the same car only about once every nine months…That kind of individualization would swamp most automakers with budget-busting complexity. But BMW has emerged as a sort of anti-Toyota. One excels in mastering complexity and tailoring cars to customers' tastes. That's what differentiates BMW from Lexus and the rest of the premium pack. 'BMW drivers never change to other brands,' says Yoichi Tomihara, president of Deutschland, who concedes that Toyota lags behind BMW in the sort of customization that creates emotional appeal."

Nonetheless, new (as of Sept 1) CEO of BMW, Norbert Reithofer believes "the pack will be coming at him from the east." One BMW staffer who has worked with the new chief says he "never spoke about Mercedes. He was always looking over his shoulder at Toyota." Business Week concludes: "Over the next decade, BMW expects Toyota Motor Co.'s Lexus and Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti brands to set up plants in Europe and then hire German engineers to work on building cars with BMW-like handling. Within five years, predicts Reithofer, it could be 'Lexus that we will be most busy competing with'."

merc1 · October 2006

You know what, I've been reading Consumer Reports lately it is seems that only thing holding them back on recommending a Mercedes is reliability. They seem to like the E,R,SL,S and GL a lot, but of course can't recommend them. I knew they liked the S, but I had no idea about the rest. Very interesting. They really seem to like Mercedes a lot, but....

M

merc1 · October 2006

Interesting since Mercedes builds even more variants of their cars and has more models. I guess this is more about one plant's flexibility?

M

merc1 · October 2006

Yeah, I can see that. I think what CR is trying to say is that while we didnt necessarily like the car, owners say its reliable, so if you like it, by all means. Perhaps they should change the "recommended" tag to "reliable" or something like that. Something to further differentiate the reliability score from the overall score.

I agree. I guess having 2 lists of cars, one that they can recommend and one for cars that they like a lot but can't would defeat CR's purpose huh?

M

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