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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    More power and speed also equate to more carnage, especially when combined with the false perception that more safety equipment allows us to drive more carelessly.

    An Indiana state trooper who has witnessed hundreds of accidents opined, "I think people are just more in a hurry now than they've ever been," he said. "Their life is moving so fast they don't have time to think."

    But that's not the only reason for reckless driving, according to Purdue University, which conducted a study that found air bags and anti-lock brakes cause drivers to be more reckless, too.

    Researchers also studied motor vehicle data from the state of Washington during a five-year period beginning in 1992 and found that enhanced safety features actually make drivers less vigilant on the road. The findings were published in the Journal of Risk and Uncertainty earlier this year.

    But insurance loss experience for LPS cars is overall very good. So perhaps drivers of LPS cars are more experienced, skilled, risk averse, and diligent.

    Many of us are also older, and less apt to be driving around at 2am...

    So what's the solution? Maybe the trick is to design safety features that do not allow drivers to realize the edge of performance. But how you would do that, I don't know. Especially when new LPS cars are pushing 300-400 horsepower. And the driver is busy on a cell phone while blasting down the interstate. Lexus' often criticized mitigation systems may be one step toward addressing those variables.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    I maintained my 98 A6 per the specs, but had some severe problems that made me think twice about replacing it. Before 50K, I had replaced the radiator, the water pump, the timing chain, a couple of A-arms (not because of hitting something...joints got loose), leaking seals, and a few other things.

    I've mentioned it before, but the new one didn't pass my sit test. You can't get much of any nice to have options unless you buy the sunroof, and I just plain don't fit. I special ordered the 98 without a sunroof, which added 2.85" of headroom over the ones with it...nearly 3"! I refuse to drive laying down!
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    For some reason, among the various threads that run through the forum, there is an "unreliable Audi" thread. Haven't seen a similar detailed litany of repairs about other cars recently (Mark ... maybe your pro-Audi voice creates a compulsion to report only bad Audi experiences).

    So, simply to keep some balance, ... I drove the M35, which came and went in three months) 3600 miles, during which time I needed repair of the rear suspension, driver seatbelt, and headlights.

    On the Infiniti M new owners board, an owner, at the 34K mileage point, lamented: "I have owned my M45 sport for 14 months now. My previous vehicle was a FX35. I do drive about 2500 miles a month, so the car has about 34,000 miles on it. I am disappointed in how it is holding up. There seem to be some "glitches" that happen once in a while. The auto drivers seat and steering wheel work about 50% of the time. When it does not work, I have to push the memory seat position to start driving. There is a rattle in the back end of the car when I stop sometimes, and the a/c smells musty when the car starts up after sitting for more than an hour. I know these seem minor, but after spending over 50k for a car I want it to work right. I have taken it to the dealer for all of the issues only to be told that they cannot repeat them. I purchased an Infiniti so I would not have to worry about repairs. The car's initial appeal has really worn off. I am actually looking forward to my lease ending in 10 months. Its to bad, this car has potential, it just needs a little more excitement to be a show stopper."

    And, from the Infiniti M35/M45 owners' problems forum: "I've put about 12,000 miles on my 2006 M35X. Before leasing, last summer, I read all the reviews and all of the posts on various sites - including Edmunds. The reviews were fantastic and so were the posts. Many former BMW and Mercedes owners raved about the M. I'm guessing there are other potential buyers that are doing the same right now. In my opinion, the best things about this car are the sound system (best I've ever heard in a car) and the interior. I really don't like the drive AT ALL. On the highway, the steering is all over the place. The transmission shifts are really pronounced in sound and feel, reminding me of a stick shift being driven by someone that really doesn't know how to drive. When you dive the car hard, it does perform. However, when you drive the car normally, it feels like you are pulling a boat.If I could get out of the lease today - I would (and I still might, regardless of the financial loss). I dislike this car so much I left it at our winter home in Florida all winter. This way, I would only have to drive it one week per month. Our two other cars are an Audi A4 and a BMW X3. Both of cars drive better than the M. All I can think about each time I drive the M is - I really can't stand this car! I kick myself each day for not choosing the Mercedes E350 or BMW 530."
  • fonefixerfonefixer Member Posts: 247
    I sold my 2000 A6 2.7T w/ 100,000 miles for $11,500 and bought a new Mazda Cx-7 for $28,350.00. Needed more hauling capacity, liked the way the Mazda handled, and changed brands with no expectations that Mazda will be more reliable than Audi.

    Buying a vehicle really is a crap shoot no matter what the forums or anybody says or writes. Liked the look and driveability of the Mazda, plus the slick tiptronic setup, and really have to hope for the best!

    If I have to have the radiator, water pump, timing chain, front end parts,oil seals, and "a few other things" replaced before 50 K, even if these things are covered under warranty, my search for the "holy grail" of reliable and trouble free transportation will start all over again.
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    Has anyone beside me been perplexed by the frequency of people generalizing from their car's particular service history to that brand's ultimate reliability? Contributors here seem bright, thoughtful, even insightful except in this one area.

    Here's the situation: your car's particular service history is a matter of luck: sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but it is a matter of chance. As such, it's really not worth long diatribes. What you learn from problems is how good a particular dealer is in dealing with them, and how good a brand is in standing behind their products. But you don't learn a general reliability lesson for that brand or your model.

    I've had a terrible time with my 2002 BMW X5. I wouldn't buy another one just because it has left a bad aftertaste. But I look at CR's just-released buying guide, and discover that the 2002 BMW has been of average reliability, with particular problems in electrical systems, AC, and power equipment. Well, my problems were in none of those areas; they were in the transmission, the suspension, and the body integrity. Does this mean that CR got it wrong? Of course not. It means the world is a phenomenally random place, and the hand I was dealt is not likely to get dealt again. I learned that my BMW dealer is pretty supportive and does its best to fix things and minimize my inconvenience. I might buy another BMW (maybe a 525ix wagon) and hope for a better hand. But I didn't learn much about BMWs or X5s. I go to places that do reliable surveys to learn about that.
  • fonefixerfonefixer Member Posts: 247
    The question is : Were you satisfied with the dealer service in repairing the transmission, suspension and body integrity to the point where you would purchase BMW again?

    I was not with the Audi dealer authorized service,and found an independent shop to keep the car running.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    I rarely visit here since purchase of my current non-LPS.
    But every time I do ( these cars still hold a level of interest for me ) it seems I see a post by Mark that intrigues me.

    Full disclosure here:
    My current ride is a 2007 Corvette Coupe. HP \ TQ = 400 of each. And weight is close to 3200#. Mark’s A6 3.2 has 255 \ 243 and weighs something over 4000#.

    One reason ( high on my list ) that I did not end up buying something like an Audi A6 4.2 ( I drove one of the first to arrive here in Atlanta ) is:

    More ( as in great steaming piles of ) Torque and More ( as in very, very quick for a Daily Driver ) Acceleration were of paramount importance to me. And my circumstances finally allowed me to have an only vehicle \ Daily Driver wherein I could “give up” 2 seats & 2 doors in favor of a significant step up in both acceleration & handling.

    The Corvette board I primarily monitor is rife with Corvette drivers who have 1 or more additional vehicles – and some are Audis or BMWs. But there are also a surprising ( to me ) number of folks who commute daily in their Corvettes – as I now do.

    Point here is that I am rarely able to use WOT in the first 3 gears for more than a few seconds at a time. ( I generally try to avoid exceeding every current posted speed limit in the US. ) But I can utilize WOT on occasion, and I can & do use WOT in the higher gears, reveling in the elasticity and the Torque that slings me along at entertaining rates of acceleration.

    ( My name is Ray & I am a TQ \ HP Junkie – looking for a 12 step program. )

    While I cannot safely explore the very high cornering limits of the Corvette. The handling is quite enjoyable at 6 or 7 tenths. And I can accelerate at a very enjoyable and engaging rate of speed whenever the mood & traffic \ road conditions allow.

    So. More is better. For me.

    And my recent trip to Florida over the weekend resulted in quite respectable fuel economy.

    Trip: Approx. 725 miles, mostly over 2 travel days.

    Average MPG = 28.25 ( Excel & Trip Computer nearly identical )

    I was not driving trying to achieve the best possible MPG. This trip also included a couple of ( um ) ‘demonstration’ acceleration runs: 15 – 95 or so. NOT exactly the best conditions for fuel economy . . .

    I did not select a Corvette because I expected Honda fuel efficiency – but this I do find quite remarkable.

    Just my 0.02 gallons worth.
    - Ray
    Very Happy with More . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • fonefixerfonefixer Member Posts: 247
    I have never heard of a Corvette getting THAT kind of fuel economy... once owned a blue 1980 L-82 that only made about 17-19 mpg. Must be quite a few breakthrough upgrades in every area of Corvette construction in the last 26 years!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You are always welcome here no matter what you drive. ;)
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    “I have never heard of a Corvette getting THAT kind of fuel economy... once owned a blue 1980 L-82 that only made about 17-19 mpg. Must be quite a few breakthrough upgrades in every area of Corvette construction in the last 26 years!”

    Well – 26 years has brought many breakthroughs in many areas:
    EPA estimates for mine ( six speed automatic ) are 17 \ 27.
    In my review of many, many relevant posting, 28+ MPG for trip mileage is not exceptional for a C6.

    - Ray
    Happy motoring . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    More IS better was "a" theme I was singing. However, there is a point, for me, for MY circumstances, that THAT much more is unable to be fully appreciated. And, since I can't "have it all," I see myself reaching somewhat of a saturation point. Note: I am NOT there -- YET!

    This is not to say I think my 255HP A6 is even a tiny bit more than "adequate." I suggested there are times that I think it is inadequate, but that I just couldn't put my finger on an example that stuck in my head.

    I have had cars that were so "woefully inadequate" that I thought they were dangerous to attempt to drive if one had to merge on a freeway "already in progress."

    Here is something that this discussion (or my own wanderings) reminded me of. You see, I used to be an "audio junkie" or "audio geek" (perhaps I still am, but time and tide have drastically reduced the time I have to spend in my local Audiofile Heaven and at this point, the additional money I would have to spend to improve my system gets me to "breathtakingly expensive.") Where was I, oh yea. . .

    I used to live in an apartment (way back in college.) I had spent every dime I owned on speakers, amplification, turntables (remember records?) and cartridges (sometimes costing more than the turntables they were used in.) My speakers were the epitome of 'high fidelity.'

    They played true and they COULD play both true and loud. It is a sad fact that speakers that can play true sound even better the louder they get (up to the limits of ear pain, of course.)

    So, there I was, with a really cool audio system (well, it was at least really expensive) that I couldn't play at any volume above what at the time seemed like a mere whisper (without really honking off the neighbors.) My pre-amp and amps stayed cool since they were barely cranked, the speaker diaphragms never had a chance to show off their excursive abilities. :cry:

    Fast forward. I live in a house, my "home theater" has five subwoofers and tens of thousands of dollars worth of electronics and source components -- I watch a lot of CSI, whilst I'm reading Car & Driver, Road & Track, Automobile, and -- it's pitiful isn't it. I have the tools, I have the technology, yet I still barely crack it open, barely crank it up (although my wife would disagree.)

    Ditto my situation, I'm certain, were I to have an RS4 or S8 or S6. Lots of refined brute force, so little chance to even "crank it up above a whisper" kind of thing -- AGAIN. :cry:

    So, I search for the holy grail, my Batmobile, so to speak. I want more than the 255HP that Ingolstadt has bestowed upon the A6 3.2, but see little merit in the extra cost (for the performance gain) associated with a 4.2.

    So I say, "weapons grade torque" with similar horsepressure and I'd be fine. But, I'd put a couple of thou into a sound system upgrade (cause in the car, I CAN crank it up.)

    Nevertheless, "I STILL can't drive -- 55!" :surprise:
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Interesting, for sure.

    I had an old Yaschica D camera (bought second-hand) when I was in college & took many fairly decent photos with it. Later in my life I got a Mamiya C220 (twin-lens reflex, like the Yaschica) with a number of bells & whistles & took a number (but fewer than the YD) of good photos. That camera was stolen, and I ended up with a SLR Mamiya M45, by far the best of the lot. Mostly snapshots from that one, sadly.

    But (here's the elusive point), the better my equipment got, the less time I had to use it & the less passion (or whatever) I brought to the table. Getting older has its drawbacks, and this (for me) is one of them.

    The more money one has to indulge in stuff, as one ages, the less time is available. I drove my second-hand MGB in 44 states (when I was 20) & my 240-Z 40K miles/year several years running (when I was 25-30). Now I can afford better cars, but don't have the opportunities that I had then to actually use them as they were intended.

    Maybe it's just me.

    OTOH, I live in a part of the country that allows me to blast across Nevada & other unpopulated areas pretty much as I see fit, so on those rare (but treasured) occasions when I do engage in a road trip these days, it's a memorable thing.

    That's why I'm telling myself that the next vehicle I get, even though it'll spend 99% of the time and 95% of its accumulated mileage commuting, is worth what it'll cost.

    A handful of days a year, I can live again.

    Priceless.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    You said: "The question is : Were you satisfied with the dealer service in repairing the transmission, suspension and body integrity to the point where you would purchase BMW again?"

    My answer is slightly off target. I would buy another BMW, and I would buy it from that dealer. I'd buy another BMW because, as I said, my experiences with one BMW are just bad luck. I'd buy from that dealer because they take care of me pretty well. I've been very unhappy with other dealers of other brands--a local Volvo shop comes to mind; I'd buy another Volvo, but just not likely from that dealer.
  • fonefixerfonefixer Member Posts: 247
    Can you drive Hwy.50.."the most desolute road in America" from Fallon to Ely at 90+ mph w/o the Nevada highway patrol bothering you?
  • sidvsidv Member Posts: 64
    A Lexus is simply an appliance for people who aren't even into cars and should drive Camrys or Highlanders but whose egos won't let them. Your point about specific platforms is utterly meaningless.

    The 9-5 (a great value) is far sharper than ANY Lexus, all of which are so devoid of character that they could be large bars of soap travelling down the road. I'll take the 9-3 styling over a Lexus any day, for you to call it generic while favoring Lexus is completely laughable. I agree the 9-7 was ill advised but beats a Highlander (tall Camry) at the prices Lexus charges for the RX.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You never hear "Dont own a Lexus out of warranty!" though.

    True, very true. Truthfully though, neither German or Japanese are inexpensive outside of warranty as they mile up, but the former can be breathtakingly so.

    M
  • sidvsidv Member Posts: 64
    That's your subjective opinion. I happen to disagree with it. Saabs are not the best cars on the road, GM needs to give them more money for R&D to maintain a unique identity, but they are good deals, plain and simple. Far, far more appealing cars for the money (real world money, not MSRP) than Lexus or Audi. For what my 9-5 cost, I could only be driving an Audi A4 rather than the A6 which is much closer in size to the 9-5, and, to my tastes, the A4 is inferior in pretty much every way other than interior quality. Or I could be driving a Lexus ES. Which is a Camry (the single most boring vehicle of all time) for all intents and purposes, enough said.

    Not that I would be caught dead in an Audi either. Very unreliable in surveys and the few people I've known who have had them have had an amazing number of issues. Also they are generally quite boring cars, the least interesting of all the European brands except for VW. An A3 is a cramped, odd little car that screams "Tweaked Rabbit", why anyone would spend their money on one is beyond my comprehension.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Yes, but you still have to be reasonably careful. However, it's far from the most desolate road in America, and I prefer several others. There are a couple of N-S roads in Nevada that have both fewer towns & less traffic. They aren't U.S. highways, though, and I think where the name was first coined -- the state & county roads are definitely emptier.

    Two of my personal favourites are state 140 between Lakeview, OR, and Winnemucca, NV. There's a bit of it on US95, but the rest is through the wide-open spaces. The other is NV266 & CA168 between Lida Junction, NV, (turn left at the whorehouse) and Big Pine, CA. Lots of good curves and undulating pavement on this one.

    You still have to pay attention -- shouldn't go ridiculous speeds when there's oncoming traffic, that sort of thing. If someone comes up behind you, slow down & let them pass. The good news is that these are rare occasions.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    5-Series 5,954 (49,296 YTD)
    E-Class 4,918 (43,079 YTD)
    M 2,015 (23,475 YTD)
    GS 1,860 (25,102 YTD)
    A6 814 (14,963 YTD)
    RL 731 (10,799 YTD)

    Note that BMW had a tremendous lease deal for November - almost a zero MF!
  • allagarooallagaroo Member Posts: 88
    Well I've had 2 A6 2.7T's. A 2000 and a 2003 with very minimal repair issues. I had 5 series BMW's for 14 years and a Q45 until the Audi's. The twin turbo's give you 0-60 in 6.6 and good passing power. They also develop max. torque from 1800rpm to 3800rpm. The quattro makes the car feel very firmly planted and I drive it hard. It is fabulous in rain or snow which gives me a very secure feeling. Great trunk room and the rear seats go down also. I think a good looking car with benchmark interior. My lease is almost up and prices are way up and no more twin turbo offered so I am looking at other all wheel drive options particularly the M35X but I would hardly call the Audi boring by any stretch of the imagination.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Your point about specific platforms is utterly meaningless.

    I only mentioned the fact that Lexus actually has cars which aren't just rebadges because you seemed to be bashing Lexus for rebadging Camrys (which are mostly just gilded Camrys anyway).

    The 9-5 is not a great value, nothing that old is worth what Saab is charing for it, (although I'm sure dealers are knocking thousands off the sticker). If by "sharper" you mean better handling than anything Lexus has, fraid not. The IS350 will cream the 9-5 in both acceleration and handling. Saabs are quirky cars for quirky people. They've never been able to do performance cars properly, they'd have to dump FWD for starters, which Saab is loathe to do. The best "performance Saab" in recent history was the 9-3 Viggen, and that was a terrible car.

    The sad truth that Saab fanatics cant seem to accept is that Saab is already dead. Thats why Saabs generally aren't even invited to comparison tests anymore, a last place finish is pretty much guaranteed. The current Saab lineup is for people who aren't into cars and should drive Malibus or Trailblazers instead, but their egos won't let them. Volvos are still Volvos. Saabs are just Chevys with a Swedish badge on them, (and now a GM badge on the side, incase you couldn't tell already who made it).
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "Saabs are quirky cars for quirky people. . . for people who aren't into cars and should drive Malibus or Trailblazers instead, but their egos won't let them."

    Careful! You'll be severely disciplined.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Just returning the favor. The difference between Lexus and Saab is that Lexus has a purpose. Their cars appeal to those who value quality and service above all else. BMW does performance better than anyone else, Mercedes does luxury and prestige, and Lexus does quality and service.

    What does Saab have that no one else has, what do they do better than anyone? Nothing. They at least used to have a sense of off-beat individualism, but thats long gone.
  • sidvsidv Member Posts: 64
    OK, so the Lexi are not all Camrys, they are Highlanders, Aristos, FourRunners, Landcruisers and who knows what else, but except for the SC430 (which looks like a bloated frog carcass and was featured in the book "The worst cars ever made", and possibly the LS, they are all Toyota-based. Not too exciting of a starting point to me.

    I KNEW you'd mention the Malibu, but it's a tired and weak (non) comparison. The ES and Camry essentially share powertrains with minor variations and are clearly related in the sheet metal. The 9-3 and Malibu share a platform, that is it. No sheet metal, no engine, no transmission, no interior pieces-they are far, far more differentiated than the ES and Camry. The 9-7 is questionable, I don't dispute that, but no more or less so than the GX or EX and better looking than either.

    Regarding the 9-5, no I meant the looks of it, not the handling. Styling is purely subjective, but to me Lexus is incredibly uninspired across the line, even by the low standards of Asian manufacturers, whereas Saabs are unique in a way I appreciate. Other, conformist-minded individuals like yourself may not appreciate it but that's fine with me. The IS is a completely different car than the 9-5 with a different mission, they are not even remotely comparable except on theoretical price which illustrates how much more car (the 9-5 is more ES or GS sized) you get for the money with Saab. The IS is a tiny little thing with blah styling, incomparably tacky "chronograph" style instrumentation (or did they get rid of that in the new one?) and has the worst back seat in its class. The 9-5 is a veritable limo in comparison. A better comparison would be the ES which is so obviously a Camry all I can think when seeing one is the old adage about the fool and his money. I'll take the 9-5 any day, you keep your gilded Camry with its silly "L" badge.

    I for one live where it snows and REQUIRE FWD (or AWD). So, kudos to Saab for sticking with the FWD vs RWD. Speaking of coming in last in comparisons, check out the new Car and Driver comparison test including the LS430. It came in dead last with SUV-like stopping distances so perhaps you should quit casting stones.

    Saab is not dead, it's not in its glory days but it's far from dead. That is silly hyperbole and about as big of an overstatement as one can make. As point of fact, there are no GM badges on 9-3s or 9-5s nor do I believe the 9-7 has them either.

    As to the PURPOSE of Saab's, they are good cars for people who find lowest common denominator styling such as Lexus offers not for them, people who prefer FWD and people who like turbo charged motors and the combination of efficiency and power they bring. I happen to be all of these, hence Saab is a better choice than Lexus to me and more than likely always will be.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I am often wrong, but never uncertain: I am certain, at this point, that SAABs are not in the LPS pack, regardless of their status as living OR dead or nearly dead or not.

    I assume your passion is genuine -- perhaps this is just not the forum to express it.

    Lord knows I have been a champion of the Audi brand which, until recently was either in jeopardy of losing its LPS status (and for some folks, I'd wager they aren't too keen on it being there in the first place) or is such a recent entrant that it is "on probation." A few years ago, I saw a ranking of cars (this was in Audis literature or attributed to Audi) that placed Audi, SAAB and Volvo in the "possible to join the club" status. Most folks that get paid to opine on this subject finally allowed Audi to join when the C6 was brought to market. FWIW, the current Acura RL has just become an LPS club member, too.

    As far as I know, neither SAAB or Volvo have products that are at this moment in the LPS crowd. Near-premium or entry level-LPS, perhaps.

    It is perhaps true, too, that FWD "only" cars need not apply (and, I, for one, happen to believe for practical purposes this is a bit unfair) for they seem unable to convince "anyone" (well, hardly, anyone) that they can play in a field that has Performance as one of its criteria. The current RL, by virtue of its AWD (or SH-AWD) is another case in point (and the lack of a V8 is sometimes cited as a reason the RL is a "poser" despite the fact that most of the Audi A6's, BMW 5's and Mercedes E's sold are 6 cylinders (for all I know this is true of the Lexus GS and Infiniti M's too.)

    Were someone to give me a SAAB, I would be quite happy to accept it. I do suspect, however, that at this point in time SAAB automobiles are considered (again by those who shape opinions and who get paid to do so) great cars circa 1999.

    Born from jets? Perhaps a cool marketing idea. But. . .SAAB doesn't offer cars that are much in touch (competitively) with what is being put forth by "these other guys" discussed on the LPS forum (even Lexus.) :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As far as I know, neither SAAB or Volvo have products that are at this moment in the LPS crowd. Near-premium or entry level-LPS, perhaps.

    Actually I think the new S80 qualifies Volvo as a genuine LPS player. (It is on the list at the top of the board after all). The last one definitely not, but now that it offers a V8 and AWD, and the price can go over $50K, its a LPS, at least as much as the RL is, if not more so.

    The 9-5 on the other hand is like the TL or ES. Big for an entry-lux car, but still entry-lux, and not on this board.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Lexusguy: I think you mistook my point. I was just being a bit sarcastic--poking a stick at the PC that is often enforced around here. You know we're not allowed to generalize about owners from the cars they drive.

    I don't give a flip about Saabs or Lexi.

    Ducking now.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Right on, Saabs rule. People just don't see how unique and awesome Saab cars are. I especially think the Saab 9-7 is marvelous.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    You're right, I don't see how "unique" a Trailblazer ... i mean Rainier ... I mean Envoy ... I mean Ascender ... I mean 9-7x is.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Despite it lackluster sales performance in the US of LATE, Audi overall is on a roll.

    In Germany, at least. Well, in China, too. And, actually even in Great Britan.

    I know this is MOSTLY a US web log site, but:

    "The Audi A6 is the clear no. 1 in its category in Germany with 52,299 registrations in the first 10 months!"

    Or, an average of 5,229 per month for 10 months.

    In the US have we ever sold 2,000 per month for two months in a row? I don't think so.

    What does this mean?

    Probably, "who cares?"

    Thought I'd share with you fans of the brand, that Audi indeed had yet another record month, November (just not HERE in Vaspucci-land -- or did we? see below.) :confuse: (But not really :confuse:'d.)

    "AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Audi of America, Inc. today reported sales of 9,209 for the month of November, making it the best November in the company’s history. Sales are up 16.4% over the same period in 2005. For the calendar year to date, Audi sales total 78,219, up 5.4% over 2005. Audi is on pace to set a sales record this year." - November 4th, 2006 Audi of America. :blush:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Speaking of the A6 Mark, I've got a question for you. What do you think of the latest Avant? The wife is thinking of trading in her RX for a new car. She still wants AWD, but is willing to give up the space of the RX (we really don't use it) for better fuel economy. She wants more space though than the typical LPS trunk, which makes the A6 Avant seem like a good choice.

    What do you recommend in terms of option packages, leasing etc? Also, I've been meaning to talk home theater with you, I've got some new Bel Canto amplifiers and a bunch of other stuff. I'll send you an email about that.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter with a national newspaper is hoping to talk with consumers who have received or are giving a luxury car as a gift for Christmas. Please reply to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Friday, December 8, 2006 with your daytime contact info.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Since there is no longer an allroad in the US, the Avant makes a great imitation. Test drive it, I can't imagine you will be disappointed.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    Nov 16, 2006

    AUDI AG has been presented with one of the automotive world’s most important and coveted Awards. The decisive factor for the Autocar jury was the range of products that Audi has launched in recent years. When compared to models from premium competitors such as BMW and Mercedes, the magazine concluded that Audi products: "offered equal value, were arguably better built, and often technologically more interesting. Our exhaustive tests show its models now stand with the best“.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    You are somewhat off base here. Sounds more like bias opinion for SAAB rather than actual discussion about Audi. You need to check some of the latest data that proves you wrong on the reliability front with CR recommending the A4 as "highly recommended" to start. There is no way a SAAB can touch an Audi A4 in terms of build quality, design, and just plain badge snobbery. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Audi is Tier 1 and SAAB is distinctly Tier 3 at most. Your anaylsis is somewhat off if compared to general reviews and other data. So, it is great that you enjoy SAAB, but save the anti-Audi stuff. It is so passe already!
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    The median and mean age of automobiles has steadily increased since 1969. In 2005 the overall median age for automobiles was 8.9 years, a significant increase over 1990 when the median age of vehicles in operation in the US was 6.5 years and 1969 when the mean age for automobiles was 5.1 years. Of all body styles, pick-up trucks had the highest mean age (9.4 years), followed by cars with a mean age of 8.4 years and van with a mean age of 7.0 years. As SUVs are part of a relatively new consumer trend originating mostly in the 1990s, SUVs had the lowest mean age of any body style in the US (6.1 years). The mean age has increased continuously for all body styles from 1969 to 2005
  • acuratacurat Member Posts: 87
    Interesting. My treasured 1969 AMX was a piece of junk after 8 years, replaced by a 1977 Celica, which became a piece of junk after 4 years. My first and last Toyota.

    What per-gallon gas price will it require for all those recently-minted SUVs and monster pickups to go to the crusher? (Oh Happy Day, Oh Happy Dayyyy...)

    Bring it on! What I wouldn't give for daily L.A. traffic reports minus the obligatory 5:30 am SUV rollover blocking multiple lanes...somehow it's never a LPS in the midst of the chaos.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Wow! That's a heckuva grudge you're carrying there. Good thing not everyone judges a manufacturer based on a car from the '70s or there'd be ALOT of companies out of business! ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The entire US auto industry would be gone, as would all of the British brands, Korean brands, possibly Toyota and Nissan, and VW\Audi. Based on 1970s quality, Honda, Mercedes, Porsche and Volvo would probably be the only brands left.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    In Australia the proportion of women buying traditional large luxury "saloons" as well as top-end luxury roadsters is on the way up, but even today only 19 per cent of E-Class customers are women compared to 17 per cent in 1994.

    If figures are similar in the U.S. and any of the men of this forum have been confused about a holiday gift for wife or girlfriend, not to late to get her an E-Class and close the gender-gap at the same time.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    With rumors of an impending takeover (controlling shares and Board seats) of VW by Porsche, several stories emphasize VW's chance to stop the Toyota juggernaut (e.g., Business Week, NY Times) and convey the sense of people rooting for or against VW or Toyota. Interesting how much emotion cars evoke -- not that one could detect that in our controlled environment here :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    With rumors of an impending takeover (controlling shares and Board seats) of VW by Porsche, several stories emphasize VW's chance to stop the Toyota juggernaut

    If anybody can stop Toyota, its not going to be WV AG, at least not in this country. They are a bit player here.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    If anybody can stop Toyota, its not going to be WV AG, at least not in this country. They are a bit player here.

    OK ... that's one unemotional bet on Toyota? And a rebuttal to the automotive economists quoted in these articles.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    What's that other place outside this country? ... Oh, yeah, the rest of the world. No auto maker cares about the location from which its profits flow. Nor, on the consumer side of the auto market, does popularity in the U.S. trump popularity in little places like Europe and China. Porsche has been aggressively incorporating Toyota's "lean" production techniques and now has the highest margins in the industry. As Porsche more and more controls VW (with its 20% of the European market and 17.5% of the Chinese market), they might well finallly get costs down at VW and, as Business Week concluded, "it would start to create a war chest to match or trump Toyota in every segment."
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    "I don't think German luxury cars are built to last longer than 100K miles without major life support. Any Legend, Q, or LS though should handle 100K miles in its sleep."

    Baloney! My 97 BMW 528 with more than 155k on the clock has been near bullet-proof and is still quieter than any current Japanese LPS I have driven, and it handles much better. Keep drinking the koolaid if it makes you feel better. While you're at it, tell us about the Toyota/Lexus automatic transmission reliability. There are pages and pages of whining about this topic on other boards. If anything, Japanese reliability has gone down while everyone else's has gone up.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Baloney! My 97 BMW 528 with more than 155k on the clock has been near bullet-proof and is still quieter than any current Japanese LPS I have driven, and it handles much better.

    Thats wonderful that you've had such a great experience with your BMW, but a sample of 1 is not a valid statistic. Generally, European cars don't age mechanically as well as Japanese cars do. Thats a fact. There are exceptions on either side of course.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I generally agree with your reply. However, I also agree that Japanese reliability has declined somewhat.

    Overall, I do believe we are experiencing an improvement in reliability of cars from most of the major players.

    Two of my clients, Honda and Toyota have responded to some of the issues regarding an apparently temporary decline in their car's reliability; and, here we are with the quality and reliability once again on the uptick from these American-Japanese companies.

    Indeed, my casual read of articles, blogs, "expert" articles etc, leads me to believe I would not need to be too concerned with the reliability of ANY car on most folks radar screens.

    Finally, although major breakdowns are far less likely than in the past, I still would NOT want to have one of these cars out of warranty protection.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I generally agree with your reply. However, I also agree that Japanese reliability has declined somewhat.

    It depends on the brand, I think. Hondas (as far as I'm aware) are still extremely good pretty much across the board. Acura on the other hand has definitely taken a dive, starting with that nasty TL\CL transmission recall. Initial year quality for the RL wasn't any better than the A6 or 5 series.

    Nissan is definitely having a lot of trouble with their American plants, as evidenced by the dismal quality of the Quest, Titan, Armada, and QX. The Infinitis that come in from Japan though seem to be up there with Lexus.

    Toyota is still a much safer bet than VW in terms of reliability, but I don't think they are as good as they used to be. Hyundai is now at least on par with them, which should make the Toyota guys very nervous.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    Generally, European cars don't age mechanically as well as Japanese cars do. Thats a fact. There are exceptions on either side of course."

    I have not been able to find reliability data that compares repair records of cars between, say, 50K and 100K. Have you? If not, is "a fact," in your comment, an idea to which you attach high truth value based on anecdotal data? That would seem to matter to you, since you were careful to point out that N=1 doesn't lead to statistically solid conclusions. Neither does one person's observations. But if there is a place where repair records of cars between 50K and 100K, or beyond 100K, has been collected, that might stop us from periodically circling back to an argument which we have no "facts" to resolve.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Domenick, I agree.

    A related example ...

    According to Consumer Reports, most newly designed models have more problems during their first model year than in the model year before or in the model years that follow. First-year models continue to have more problems as they age . Using cars made in 2000, 2001, and 2002 CR identified the 2000 BMW as the least reliable first year newly introduced model. When I did a cursory check of BMW history, I couldn't find a major BMW series that was in its first year in 2000. Do any of the BMW fans here know what brand-new 2000 BMW model CR might be referring to? Otherwise, is this another example of CR using data any way that helps to make a dramatic point?
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