Luxury Performance Sedans

designman · December 2006

I wonder if too much energy is being put into the task of categorization...

I have no doubt in my mind that the answer is yes.

qbrozen · December 2006

I think both of you guys have been around long enough to know better.

The reason so much energy goes into it is because the powers that be will slap you silly if you post off-topic. And its not that i'm saying they shouldn't ... its an all or none proposition. Do you really want folks here comparing their Kia to an M45? Without categorization, it will happen.

sfcharlie · December 2006

Maybe we need a "Bang for the Buck" forum.

lexusguy · December 2006

Whats the difference between Kia and Chrsyler? They both sell similar cars, and at least around here the dealerships are pretty similar. I do find it funny that your post implies "how dare Kia show its pathetic head around here", and yet for whatever reason, Chrysler is now a-ok. Suppose Kia started buying Chevy small block crate motors and stuffing them in their cars? Would you all then start demanding that the 400hp Optima be included? After all, dealership experience is a crapshoot, the Kia's materials are "close enough", and she sure is fast.

You can stuff 500hp in a Sebring, or 300, or T&C if you want. They are still no better than Fords, or Hondas, or Kias for that matter.

designman · December 2006

Well I wasn't talking about the energy on Edmunds' end of things, rather, that of the posters. It is what it is so there's no use in fighting City Hall. You are right about not wanting to compare a Kia to an M45.

By the way, there are threads on Edmunds where one can compare shoe laces to banana peels if one so desires.

sfcharlie · December 2006

We're both the "writers" and "readers" of this magazine. If the name of the magazine is LPS and the subtitle is "Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS", then there would seem to be some consensually agreed upon responsibility to keep "editorial content" within the generally expected boundaries.

We're in a funny position because, unless the managing editors (the hosts) declare that a thread is drifting outside the boundaries of the "magazine's" editorial scope, then anyone can post anything about any car (we had a brief foray into the Mazda CX-7, but that materialized more like a one-shot op-ed piece) and the only brake on the length of the thread is others ignoring it and moving on.

markcincinnati · December 2006

A few posts back, I expressed some confusion regarding the "common traits" that we all [or mostly all] could list and agree were LPS traits.

I did use, purely as an example, a Chrysler 300 (in large part because I had test driven one recently) as the instigator of my confusion and to shape the question.

I am not now nor then suggesting we alter the brands and models discussed here -- not suggesting we consider anything for inclusion (not Chrysler, not Kia.)

I had assumed we might come up with some broad consensus as to the attributes that defined the list of cars at the top of this particular forum.

MSRP and "amenities" (and perhaps the availability of either RWD or AWD) seem to be all I can glean from the responses.

I am fine with dropping the topic since it either has caused a drifting of the subjects posted far from the LPS topic or perhaps because "no one knows" what an LPS car really is. My only real issue is that there must be "the next" LPS cars in the wings and what are they and how will we know?

And, could one of these marquis fall from grace?:

Acura
Audi
BMW
Cadillac
Infiniti
Jaguar
Lexus
Mercedes

& a possible inclusion of Volvo.

As I read the posts over the past year or so, it seems to me that some think Acura could be in some danger of slipping.

Is it simply sales volume, or is it as has been suggested, the lack of a V8 (which I find odd since it appears that the V8 versions of the above list are but a fraction of the sales of a given model in the LPS niche of that particular brand (i.e., most BMW 5 sales, by far are 6 cylinder versions, ditto the A6 and I would assume ditto the Infiniti M etc etc.)

Which goes to my original question -- that is germane to the LPS forum -- "what attributes, features and/or functions (or design traits) comprise an LPS entrant?"

At this time, I see no reason to discuss Kia unless there is some reason to mention it in passing to demonstrate "the lack" of a trait. There was a time, for instance, when I would have assumed Saab MIGHT be a candidate for LPS inclusion. I also assume, today, we would pretty much agree that Saab need not apply (but is that because they, or "it" don't have any RWD or AWD applicants in the right places?)

I'll live if this question remains unanswered. And, I certainly don't want us to have this thread suspended because it drifted.

If you care to list the LPS traits you believe are immutable, however, I'm still all ears. :surprise:

domenickamarc · December 2006

I guess authorial intent is in the mind of the reader. Rereading your posts, including this one, I didn't read them as intending only to invite a "scholarly" (for lack of a better word) re-opening of what we're actually talking about on this forum, but also to involve the group in something you and your wife experienced while car-shopping, which came across to me, as reader (not as mind-reader), more like "we're finding the Chrysler 300 to be quite desirable and I want the group to tell me why, if I or my wife bought one, we should feel we had not leased an LPS?" I have the sense that, by and large, the invitations were rejected (or, perhaps, better stated) evoked a kind of annoyed RSVP.

My guess is that the question itself is somewhat off the mark (no pun intended). I think the forum has merit, as currently defined, because (1) I think a large majority of people, who are really thinking of buying one of our "official" cars, tend to do their comparison shopping within this group, and don't exclude the RL as not belonging nor consider the Chrysler as belonging, but that's just my take, obviously; and (2) most of journalism about cars keeps these cars grouped and doesn't include the Chrysler.

qbrozen · December 2006

I do find it funny that your post implies "how dare Kia show its pathetic head around here", and yet for whatever reason, Chrysler is now a-ok.

I never said Chrylser was ok. And you have demonstrated EXACTLY why I feel that way. Once one exception is made, you open the floodgates.

And I never said Kia was pathetic (by the way, saying someone "implied" anything or "meant" anything is just another way of saying you have made the mistake of trying to read between the lines rather than reading what was actually written). But, no, Kia does not belong in this discussion in any way, shape, or form.

qbrozen · December 2006

I do feel Acura is currently borderline. The RL barely breaches into LPS territory, and only by merit of AWD and 300 hp. The fact is, it is not selling for anywhere near MSRP because the LPS buyers don't feel its worth 50 large. If, for instance, a limitation of LPS was $50k street price, rather than retail, they'd be out. And what if they drop their MSRP on the car?

In any case, I think they'll need to bump the size and power of the RL to really compete with the likes of the M45, for instance.

Volvo, on the other hand, has answered the call, IMHO, with the new v8 S80.

I think we've demonstrated on the other board that Lincoln already has fallen from grace.

And as I stated earlier, I think the addition of the Smart cars to MB showrooms could hurt their image. But with something like the S600 still in their stable, I don't think they'll fall from grace completely.

lansdownemike · December 2006

Well, I, for one, have been convinced that the Chrysler 300 belongs on this board. We'll see over time whether anyone besides Mark includes it in discussions. The argument that the dinky cars in the product line disqualifies it is not convincing; otherwise the Volvo S40/V50/C30 would disqualify Volvo, and that doesn't make sense. It seems that a combined set of price, luxury, options, and performance criteria implicitly qualifies a particular model for inclusion. I'm convinced that several versions of the 300C fit. So I add my voice to the request that our "host" add it to the list at the top of the page.

fonefixer · December 2006

I believe that within the next five model years, all vehicles will have to be AWD in order to stay competitive in the LPS class. When I bought my Audi A6 2.7T in 2000, there were few nameplates, (if any), that could match Audi's engineering prowess ,(twin turbo,AWD, etc) and incorporate all this state of the art technology into a luxurious, sporting sedan.

In 2000, I was driving one of the most "complicated" (from a repair point of view) and sophisticated LPS priced under $50,000.

Today,I could not not make that claim about the Audi.

qbrozen · December 2006

The argument that the dinky cars in the product line disqualifies it is not convincing; otherwise the Volvo S40/V50/C30 would disqualify Volvo, and that doesn't make sense.

You're right, it doesn't make sense because it's not the same comparison. A C30 will still be a luxury car, much like the TSX (or RSX, RIP) is still a luxury car, they are just entry-level luxo-cars. You cannot, by any means, even think that a PT Cruiser is a luxury car. If Volvo offers up a $14k tin can, then there would be an argument to be made.

tayl0rd · December 2006

What if, and this is a BIG "what if", Chrysler released the Firepower and the ME-4-12? Would it still be denied entry into the pack? The Firepower is as luxurious as anything out there and the ME-4-12 is almost THE supercar (it smashes Mercedes' own SLR, BMW has nothing to challenge it, the Carrera GT is no challenge for it, and it makes the Enzo look like an also-ran when it comes to performance). What then? Mercedes has the C-class and is/was considering the A-class. Why couldn't Chrysler still be burdened with the Sebring and PT Cruiser and still be included? Jaguar has the X-type, BMW's bringing the 1-series, etc. (Speaking of the 1-series, won't it make the 3-series and M-coupe superfluous, especially considering it will be priced about the same, if not a splash more?)

I'm not championing adding Chrysler to the mix, I'm just saying it's not fair to exclude it simply because it has a couple of cheapy-cheapies in the model lineup. The way it stands now, it's not allowed simply because it doesn't have the uppity snob appeal.

acurat · December 2006

Acura borderline? Hardly.

I recently chose the RL over competing vehicles from Infiniti and Lexus because it is an elegant, beautifully-crafted, technologically advanced and superbly-performing car at a compelling price point. I did not consider Mercedes or Jaguar because of quality problems. I did not consider BMW because I personally find their products ugly and vastly overpriced. Having money does not obligate me to spend it unwisely.

More generally, the relative sales of various LPS have more to do with marketing than intrinsic merit IMHO. I have been amazed for years at Toyota's success in convincing a gullible public that Lexus equals luxury. A gilded Camry is a gilded Camry...

...and yes, a gilded Accord is a gilded Accord. But at least everything comes standard. Now, let the flaming begin!

:P

qbrozen · December 2006

That's fine. We each have our opinion.

I'm not saying anything bad about the RL. I think its a fine vehicle. The problem with being in this crowd is that its the best Acura has to offer against its competitors who offer much bigger, powerful, and expensive sedans. And, no, I'm not saying the RL needs to compete with those, but maybe Acura does. In other words, I think they should consider adding a car to their lineup ABOVE the RL. I want to point out, again, that I'm talking in terms of manufacturers here, not individual cars.

qbrozen · December 2006

What then? Mercedes has the C-class and is/was considering the A-class. Why couldn't Chrysler still be burdened with the Sebring and PT Cruiser and still be included? Jaguar has the X-type, BMW's bringing the 1-series, etc.

Just as in my example of the volvo, we're comparing cars of totally different calibers. The 300 does not compare to a 7-series anymore than a PT Cruiser compares to an X-type.

tayl0rd · December 2006

But the Imperial would.

qbrozen · December 2006

Possibly. And that's why I mentioned it before. Although I said they'd have to add the Imperial AND drop the PT, IMHO. I had previously said to drop the T&C, as well, but I might be persuaded out of that one if they did the rest.

markcincinnati · December 2006

Someone had better tell the TV Test-drive guy on the SpeedChannel that he can't compare the 300C to a 7 series BMW or an A8 -- in a 30 minute program he said words to the effect that the only way to describe the 300C by comparison, is to compare it with "similar" offerings from Audi and BMW, namely the A8 and 7 series.

At the time I thought "pull the other one."

Perhaps at the time he hadn't driven the STS.

For a variety of reasons, "I think" the 300 is a "near-LPS" car personally.

But the heck of it is, if you stuck a gun to my head and said "quick fast, rattle of "n" number of LPS traits," I do think the 300 would qualify.

My confusion of course is that these two are at odds: "it isn't really a member vs, the traits I would list."

The main reason a car might not qualify would be what "the dealer body is slimy?" Well the Lexus and Infiniti dealer in our city's northern auto-mall are full of the exact same "lot lizards" and "what'll it take to get you to buy today" kind of folks as the Chryco dealer that has been on the corner since the 60's."

So that is that.

erickpl · December 2006

In the end, my categorization may not meet the criteria for anybody else.

A Kia Optima maybe a LPS for one person, and a piece of junk for somebody else. Yet another may find the BMW 550i a piece of junk and think the Dodge Magnum is the ultimate LPS. It is all relative.

If somebody thinks a car falls into a category for them, then it does. Plain and simple.

Perception is reality - for the one doing the perceiving.

-Paul

tayl0rd · December 2006

... Yet another may find the BMW 550i a piece of junk and think the Dodge Magnum is the ultimate LPS. ...

Nobody's going to think that. :P

markcincinnati · December 2006

Virtually all of the LPS class do offfer an AWD version or multiple versions. It seems that further AWD "encroachment" is a fait accompli.

In five years, it may well be that the two-wheel drive versions (in this class and the "near-class,") although still offered, will be the "odd man out."

If you asked me, and I know you didn't, the "next" requirement for entry and retention may well be, Torque Vectoring Technology.

"Torque Vectoring technology enables moment-by-moment redistribution of drive-torque in response to driver demand, vehicle speed and road conditions. In doing so, it enables the vehicle to follow the driver's intended path, ultimately leading to a potentially safer, more enjoyable driving experience."

Now THAT's Luxury Performance!

markcincinnati · December 2006

Well that may be true, generally and I also would agree that perception is reality.

But, with this, "A Kia Optima maybe a LPS for one person, and a piece of junk for somebody else. Yet another may find the BMW 550i a piece of junk and think the Dodge Magnum is the ultimate LPS. It is all relative," extravagant exaggeration (hype), eh?

Maybe there is an official edmunds glossary of what traits are required for entry into and retention in the LPS club.

"A rose by any other name, kind of thing?"

No one would think an Optima is a "rose" even if you called it American Beauty. And a BMW 5 is in no danger of any loss of membership -- at least at this time.

These are easy.

Comedy is hard, er, defining LPS is [for me] hard.

Wait, is it like "porn?" You know it when you see it, but you can't define it? Ahh, that's it, LPS cars are like fine pornography.

Naaaaaaa. No way.

qbrozen · December 2006

LOL!!

fonefixer · December 2006

In your opinion, reliability issues notwithstanding, as the driver of 20+ German vehicles, have the Japanese originating brands in 2006 leveled the playing field as far as driver feel for the road, or,are now equal or better than the so-called German engineering superior road machines?

markcincinnati · December 2006

IMHO:

I would gladly take an Infiniti M and, I assume, have no regrets. The Infiniti is luxurious and, despite a 5 speed tranny, performs pretty much in the same league as either the Audi or the BMW -- the suspension is sharp and is happy to "carve up the road."

I would assume this [statement] would include an E class Mercedes, too. But my wheel time with any E class Mercedes is pretty limited (I did rent one in Germany for a day (in 2002) and drive it on the autobahn between Munich and Garmisch at triple digit, high triple digit, speeds.)

Lexus -- to me has completely cracked the luxury code and remains (to me) too isolating of an experience to qualify for anything but honorable mention in the performance sweepstakes. Yet on what seems to be the "vague but true" definition of LPS, the Lexus (G's at least) are full-fledged LPS members.

I'd take one if someone gave it to me, I'd probably even buy one for a substantial negative premium over the Infiniti and I do think most of the Germans would easily "run away" from the comparable Lexus and hardly break a sweat. Check out the current Lexus run at the A8, BMW 7, etc. in either C&D or R&T magazine, for far better prose that I can concoct on this comparo.

Acura, weeeeellllllllll, Acura just "can't get no respect," for its flagship these days (as evidenced by huge off MSRP sale prices, plunging sales figures and a general tone of disrespect.) Of the recent entrants into the LPS ranks, I suspect if any one falls, the RL will be among the first.

Other than the style, however, I would take an Acura RL for "performance, value and content" reasons over the G's from Lexus (I like their [Lexus] looks, by far, over the Acura and even over the Infiniti -- I just don't think their design goals and my expectations of the feel behind the wheel are in synch; but, what do I know?, they [Lexus] sell some 300,000+ in the US -- yet they, like the other Japanese cars find global sales somewhat elusive compared to their Deutsch competition.)

Infiniti, as the direct answer to your question seems to "recognize and closely resemble the German DNA." I would assume Infiniti may even have some German DNA or at least a damn good clone of it in the next iteration of the M's. The G35, too, (this time) is very desirable compared to the Audi A4 and desirable even compared to the BMW. The BMW 335i however proves that Infiniti isn't really all THAT menacing to BMW, however.

All things are never equal, but, "if all things were equal," I would consider an Infiniti M35X as a strong and compelling argument against both the 530xi and A6 3.2.

In my case, I opted for the M35X when the A6 3.2 was nearly $200 per month more on a short term lease. When Audi "turned their head and coughed," I went to the A6 3.2 with comparable equipment levels largely because of the history I had had with Audi, the dealer, the salesperson and I liked the Audi interior much better than ANY of the others (although Lexus is sneakin' up on Audi, in that regard anyway.)

Who knows what I'll do next time. If Infiniti brings out a cleaner, more "useful" V6 and a 6 or 7 speed DSG type transmission, and glosses up the wood on the dash, well -- hell, I'll certainly consider them, again, a very strong and compelling choice -- of the highest merit.

The newer A6, perhaps, by that time too will merit consideration as well as a BMW 535 (AWD version) if the wonderful turbo 6 is ported to the 5 series (and why wouldn't it be?) BMW is noted for being very expensive to buy and almost impossible to beat on a 36 month lease deal (can you say "sub-vented?" I thought you could.)

All that being said, I peat and repeat, these cars (the ones we rail on about here, mostly) are much more alike (and getting moreso all the time) than different. They are separated more and more by their styling than by their luxury content or performance proclivities (and yes that even includes the Lexus G's, they are just at the other end of the same continuum.) Even the Cadillac STS with the Northstar, AWD and the Performance Package (Magnaride, et al) is a delightful to drive sheen.

Perhaps my bias is showing but I still give the Germans a bit of an edge, and they ARE moving forward. I do think, however, that the Japanese too are moving forward and perhaps just a smidge faster.

One would conclude that at some point, if nothing changes, that the Japanese will overtake the Germans.

I am not ready to take that bet -- not yet anyway. :surprise:

fonefixer · December 2006

What part does dealer service play in this equation? As these LPS, (and every car) become increasingly harder to repair in and out of warranty, superlative dealer service, to me, would seem to be the leading edge about a repeat sale or lease of a particular marque.

lexusguy · December 2006

What if, and this is a BIG "what if", Chrysler released the Firepower and the ME-4-12? Would it still be denied entry into the pack?

Yes. Into this pack, anyway. Chevy has the Vette, Dodge has the Viper. Even with cars that can cost $60K and over 90K, they are not luxury brands. I don't know about the Firepower, but the ME-4-12 is never going to happen.

lexusguy · December 2006

My wife and I spent the last two weeks looking at the MDX, RX350, FX45, X3 and X5, A6 and Q7, and the ML350.

We found that the MDX has a surprisingly rough ride, rougher than any of the Germans. I didn't notice the "vague" steering issue that one of the mags had mentioned, but we just weren't that impressed with it. It handles very well, but even with that new 3.7L V6, its still feels sluggish off the line, and the center stack in person isn't much better than the RL's. Still looks cheap and has too many tiny buttons.

The FX was fun, but Infiniti wasn't willing to cut a deal on pricing, and the dealer is just too far from us for it to be practical. If they did pick up\drop off like Lexus it may have been a contender. Oh well.

The RX350 is much more refined than our 300, but its still just too boring to drive.

We liked the A6, but my wife decided she wasn't willing to give up the high driving position, so that was out. The Q7 is just enormous, waaaay too big for us. We'll probably take a look at the Q5 next time around.

The ML like the MDX wasn't that impressive. I never liked the original, and the new one hasn't changed my feelings on it. It just doesn't seem to be worth the money.

The X5 is superb. Best interior in its class, and the handling is brilliant. Unfortunately its just more than we wanted to spend, which leaves the X3. The '07 is vastly improved over the original. The ride quality is much better, the interior is a huge improvement, and that old 3 series steering wheel is finally gone. My wife loved it, so that sealed the deal. We got ours in blue with gray leather, with the premium and cold weather packages, and sat NAV. Only one Lexus left.. uh oh.

markcincinnati · December 2006

Here in Cincinnapolis, the BMW store is the 10th largest in the US and the largest in Ohio. The owner of the store is a service fanatic and the dealership is THE best example of what service should be, could be and that all others should aspire to be. We're not worthy.

The Audi store (of the two in Cincinnati) that I frequent, too, is a great example of what good customer service can be -- but they don't compare with the BMW store (and there are two of these in our city too.)

I have no idea if the "legendary" Lexus service is delivered here in our town. I have every reason to believe that it is. The Infiniti store, likewise, from a service perspective seem to be of 'at least' Audi store like quality. It's just that the BMW store bends over backwards to keep its customers not only impressed, but delighted.

One of the Toyota dealers is so "pushy" from a sales perspective that I cannot even imagine anyone ever buying from them (their approach is "you either buy or you leave never to come back" -- literally.)

I have read the horror stories about rude, arrogant and even incompetent BMW, Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, etc etc etc dealerships. My and my wife's experience with the German dealerships has been darn near flawless and when speaking of the Bimmer dealer, peerless.

This, to repeat, is NOT to suggest the high zoot Japanese brands are not up to par. It is to say that in "our fair city" (which IS, after all, German "vas you ever in Zinzinnati?") the German auto dealers in this class have pretty much nailed the "way it ought to be."

So the dealer experience does play a part in this equation, for me a pretty significant part. I have no clue what a first time buyer or even a second time buyer may think since they all talk a good game.

Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding, with 15,000 mile service intervals and pretty much rock solid cars (based on our experience) with great no and/or low charge maintenance plans (for the time being), it is pretty hard to figure out if the dealer is "all yak and no shack" until you have fully vetted the dealer experience -- which may mean, what?, two visits after 18 months for routine service or new wiper blades or a free car wash from time to time.

Perhaps if I knew how they behaved OUT OF WARRANTY, I would feel differently -- but you know me, "no car in this class should be kept out of warranty for they all are breathtakingly expensive in THAT condition."

I also know folks who for general principles have never had the same brand of car two times in a row 'cause they like to play the field. :shades:

If you believe the book, Blown to Bits, "car dealers are sitting ducks." :sick:

dewey · December 2006

Only one Lexus left.. uh oh

Congratulations!

Keep that up and you may end up changing your forum name to Jaguarguy or BMWguy (although I suspect that you do prefer the former than the later name)

warthog · December 2006

"We liked the A6, but my wife decided she wasn't willing to give up the high driving position, so that was out."

What is it with the "high driving position?" If it weren't for all the other "high driving position" vehicles on the road, there would be no need for it. Except, of course, for the ego need.

lexusguy · December 2006

What is it with the "high driving position?" If it weren't for all the other "high driving position" vehicles on the road, there would be no need for it. Except, of course, for the ego need.

She likes the view of the road. My wife is vertically challenged (5'4") and so she doesn't like a car thats low to the ground, especially if the cowl is high. It seems to me that women like the SUV driving position more than men. I think its a feeling of security, more than ego.

lexusguy · December 2006

Keep that up and you may end up changing your forum name to Jaguarguy or BMWguy (although I suspect that you do prefer the former than the later name)

I think there's already a couple of "BMWguys" around here

kgary · December 2006

Some people have Napoleon complexes.

acurat · December 2006

RE: monster pickup and SUV drivers: my theory is that they're compensating for something.

Can you say "global warming"??

I feel guilty enough about 20-25 mpg in a LPS, imagine getting 10-15 in a glorified farm vehicle. :lemon:

lexusguy · December 2006

Well, at least the X3 isnt a monster SUV. It weighs no more than the typical LPS, and mpg is very reasonable.

dewey · December 2006

I feel guilty enough about 20-25 mpg in a LPS,

Please dont feel guilty. Thanks to global warming we are experiencing a miraculously balmy December here in Toronto

And I have you to thank for that! Please keep up your gas consumption. And I hope you are driving a non-Blutec diesel(My wife and I are very proud owners of a nitrogen spewing 83 MB300D)

My sincerest appreciations,

Dewey

markcincinnati · December 2006

We drove the 2007 X3 with every option EXCEPT nav and this time we drove the 6speed auto.

The power and performance with the sport package and the 19" wheels and tires were, er, "inspirational."

The new interior was way nicer than my wife's 2005 and the car was quieter and fantastically powerful up a test hill we have coined "BMW hill."

I could take the auto trans in this little dude without hesitation -- must be the power of the uprated engine.

Woo Woo! :shades:

sfcharlie · December 2006

Mark,

In one of my early posts (maybe in the spring) when I first started posting on this forum, I mentioned in passing that I had been driving a BMW 3-series and referred to it as a luxury car. You were dramatic in your confrontation, emphasizing that if BMW had convinced me that a 3-series was a luxury car, then they had done a great sell job. Do your recent comments represent a change in thinking about that?

Charlie

warthog · December 2006

The current 3-series is nearly as large in interior volume as the 5-series was when this board was born. It's L is at least equal and the P is considerably greater. So, why isn't the 3 an LPS?

I have an E39 530 that I love and would gladly trade for a new 330 or (lustfully) a 335.

markcincinnati · December 2006

The 3 series and the X3 (sort of) are entry level luxury vehicles. The BMW family continues to advance the BMW way of presenting luxury.

IMHO the most lux oriented BMW today is the new X5, yes even over the 7's.

I really like the new X3 and the new 335 coupe.

When you have a Lexus and an Audi A6 interior to compare a car to, the 3 series cannot be a true lux car, despite its many features.

BMW's are NOT high on style nor interiors that make you exclaim "oooooo, ahhhhh, wow." That and the overall entry level lux category (which is discussed here on edmunds blogs) seem to still nicely define BMW's 3 AND X3.

The new X3 is quite a fine "entry level luxury" vehicle, and especially at the mo pay on a lease for what can easily be a $50K SAV.

sfcharlie · December 2006

"BMW's are NOT high on style nor interiors that make you exclaim "oooooo, ahhhhh, wow." That and the overall entry level lux category (which is discussed here on edmunds blogs) seem to still nicely define BMW's 3 AND X3."

By the same token, Edmunds has a forum titled "Large Sedans for Under $30,000 Comparision" about which one could say that it quite nicely defines the collection of cars it included at its outset: "cars like the Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Kia Amanti."

voxboy · December 2006

If anyone can help me narrow the playing field, that would be great.

For production years 2002 - 2007, please state your opinion on what you consider the best pick using the following criteria in order of importance:

1. Safety
2. Reliability
3. General Performance
4. Performance on slippery roads

markcincinnati · December 2006

Are you looking for maximum or optimum?

Are you looking at #1 as a "deal breaker" and #2 as less of a deal breaker?

What does the ranking of "performance on slippery roads" have to do with the [broader] "safety" trait? I would assume if #1 was safety that your current #4 would have been your #2, that is.

Again, "general performance," [I would argue] is a significant contributing factor to the overall safety of a car, yet reliability trumps "general performance."

Does this, then, suggest "safety" is more or less a "crashworthy" metric than overall safety suggests [to me]?

I read your list and try not to figure out the rationale for the order of your criteria and my knee jerk reaction would be to perhaps suggest an all wheel drive Volvo of some middle or big size (in the Volvo lineup.) I guess I would suggest it be equipped with either a turbo motor or a V8 and either be CPO'd or brand new with a warranty extension "just in case."

Whew, this is a somewhat difficult question, especially given your criteria's numeric ranking. And, to further exacerbate the situation, you have asked this to be, apparently, listed by car for a period spanning 6 different model years.

Perhaps a Japanese marquis would pass "reliability" with flying colors, but not be #1 in Safety nor be particularly high performing "generally."

Perhaps a Mercedes would acquit itself well in 1,3, & 4 and not so much in #2.

The new A6 was one of 13 "most safe" cars -- period -- and the report was issued within the past month or so. Yet, before the 2005 model year (notably 2002 into 2003, the Audi reliability was not as high as the others, but the car was completely covered for 50,000 miles with a full on free maintenance and warranty protection.) And since most A6's were awd and many many many were turbos or V8's, well performance -- generally and on slippery roads -- was up there. But in some years the best performing on dry pavement, by far far far, was the car with the blue and white propeller. Not so much when conditions were slippery unless you got one of the X-drive versions, but they have not been around in that configuration for as many years as your date range demands.

BMW, also a favorite for General Performance and, with X drive, Performance on slippery roads. BMW's -- some at least -- pass the safety ratings of the insurance institute. BMW reliability of late has gotten up there, but they still are nowhere near as reliable in some of those early years you list as some of the LPS Japanese makes.

If safety is the #1, go look up the cars that have made the safety list for each of the past 5 or so years. List them.

Then pick ones with at least 5 speed auto transmissions or with stick shifts (available); make certain they have high hp and/or high torque engines, within reason, the number of cylinders is important, but not the end all be all answer to your quest.

How about this: the car must have at least 5 cylinders and at least 250 HP and similar torque (assuming it is an LPS or LPS-wannabe sedan.)

If you could narrow your years that you are considering, that could go a long way for helping someone give you an informed (but still biased) opinion.

With your ranking, I'd still have to strongly consider the Volvo 60 or 80 series w/AWD and the Turbo motors or a V8 if new enough -- leaving all other subordinate traits as you have them listed.

Help us help you by further narrowing and/or clarification.

To me, performance (within reason) IS a safety characteristic.

lexusguy · December 2006

For production years 2002 - 2007, please state your opinion on what you consider the best pick using the following criteria in order of importance:

2002 - 2007 is a VERY large range of cars. That covers two generations of the RL, GS, M, 5, A6, and S80.

If you are considering buying one of these cars, you first need to narrow down how much you want to spend. The difference between a used '02 LPS and a new '07 can be $30K or more.

domenickamarc · December 2006

Two questions:

Does your question imply that you're open to buying any car? No aesthetic, test-drive, or previous ownership experiences, nor even things you've read, have narrowed down the field in your mind?

Are you interested exclusively in cars in this LPS category (e.g. a Volvo S80 but not an S60, or Infintii M, but not a G35)?

allagaroo · December 2006

I had a 2000 A6 2.7T and have a 2003 coming off lease in March. They've been great in snow and wet conditions. Because of the secure feeling they have given me I'm only looking at all-wheel drive cars to replace it. In all the professional and personal reviews I have read I have seen very little comparing the all wheel drive systems in rain and snow between the M35X, 530Xi, GS 350, RL and E350. Right now I'm leaning to the M35X but would like to know how it compares in inclement conditions to the other cars. Can anyone give me any insight into this? Thanks

mnrep2 · December 2006

I have an 05 G 35x. It shares the exact same drivetrain..

It handles very well, we have a steep driveway that can be icy and we make about a 120 degree left turn into it. No problems with that maneuver :shades: Driving slippery roads the awd drive cuts in and out seemlessly. Using "Snow mode" locks the torque split 50 / 50 to 29 mph and then goes back to normal rwd, until any slip is detected. It also retards the throttle response so you are less prone to spin the tires at start-up.

In the one winter we used it so far, it has more than proven itself as a capable snowmobile.

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