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Comments
The TL seemd smaller and it reminded me of the Lexus gs450 that I test drove two months before. Felt boxed in there too. The TL was not as much but the difference in what I was looking for got me to buy the RL.
Got back four similar offers, range from $ 42k to 44k plus tax. So I think if one pays retail price for the RL is is way over priced. I looked at a other vehicles at similar price and I told the Acura dealer what I would pay, i.e. 42000 and they bought it. Also got the extra stuff they make $$ on like wax, underseal ect. thrown in.
I hope this helps. Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Consumer Reports used to rank TL and RL at the top of their categories, but no longer. See April issue. TL may be good with a few bugs worked out and new front end, but RL needs a complete new design and mission statement.
What a blast to drive.
Great choice, the 535i is a fantastic car, definitely my favorite car in the segment. I picked up a 535xi last summer. After driving all the cars in the segment (except the Jag XF, but I'm not really a Jag fan) I easily picked the 535xi which I was fairly confident I was going to pick when I started.
The M35x, although the 2nd best performer I drove (really enjoyed driving it), is still slightly behind the 535 in terms of performance, the build quality was also lacking on the inside, in addition to a lack of split folding rear seats (kinda important to me, gives a huge increase in practicality), and not so great gas mileage. Nice, but it needs a bit more personality and a sexier exterior design.
A6 has a sleek and modern look, still has a nice interior (except for strange omission of auto steering wheel adjustment unless they changed that) and costs a bit less than the 535xi (only the A6 V6 version); but definitely exhibited more body roll in the corners than the 535xi and weaker overall performance with dull steering.
The 535's engine is simply awesome, its a twin-turbo inline 6, with stronger performance than Audi's V8, and better fuel economy. And the cost advantage for the Audi only comes with the A6's V6 engine.
The RL was a definite no-go; for about the same price as a Infiniti M35x, the M35x's performance is better, in addition to being more spacious. And compared to the 535xi it was quite a bit behind. At least it has a price advantage.
MB E Class, forget about it, a joke, and it costs more than the 535, at least the Lexus has a price argument. Lexus GS350, sorry, no way. Its steering is numb compared to the 535xi, noticeably more body roll in the corners, and headroom seemed to be an issue. I don't really need to go into any more about it because for me if the performance is not there than the other stuff doesn't matter. For others though, this may not matter as much. Lexus and Mercedes Benz don't make cars that fit my idea of enjoyable driving. The 535 is a true sports sedan and I certainly can't say that about the GS350. The iDrive, while it could be a bit more intuitive, is not that bad, and is not a deal breaker by any stretch. In fact I don't mind it at all. And no, the cup holders were not even a consideration, haha.
This is an honest opinion, no bias, if Lexus made a GS model like their own IS-F against the 535xi, then it would far more difficult.
Although the 535 has sharp handling, excellent road feel, fantastic engine performance and efficiency, I must also mention that the ride quality is excellent.
Here's how I would rate the top 3:
1st. BMW 535i (xi) (what can I say? I'll sum it up with this; Edmunds Inside Line went as far as saying the "nearly perfect sedan", and I can 2nd that)
2nd. Infiniti M35 (drives better than the A6 in my opinion with more communicative steering, but the engine is a bit unrefined and thus can be annoying loud, not Porsche loud, which is a good loud, and also doesn't do great on gas b/c of this, and isn't as sexy and its interior is not as nice as the A6. But the fact is the M35 performs better than the A6. Which car you like is better may depend on which brand you like and which aspects of a car are most important to you)
3rd. Audi A6 3.0 TFSI (better looking than the M35 and has better interior build quality, and also has split folding rear seats, imp for some, me included. New engine is also more refined than the Infiniti. Handling is not quite as good as the M35 but hopefully Audi will add an S-line pk, and with it, cornering will improve.)
4th. Acura RL; Decent job w/ the exterior redesign (still too much going on though) but it still lags behind the M35 in performance, for the same price (msrp at least)
I could go into even more details but here it is summed up in 1 simple sentence. If you want to drive, get the BMW...and I love to drive.
Also something else, the BMW and M35 are RWD. That also sets them apart from the Audi and TL.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122205
On your other point; the M35 and 535i have AWD models as well, the M35x and the 535i xDrive.
Very good write up on the various current mid-sizers. I agree with almost all of your points, but I've never been a fan of the current 5. I really liked the old 540i Sport and the old M5, but the current 5 just leaves me cold.
Curious, were the A6 models you tested equipped with the sport/S-line package? The standard suspension setup on the A6 has always been a bit dull, but it's much better with the sport suspension. Prior to '09, neither A6 engine choice was great. The 3.2 was underpowered, and the 4.2's weight over the nose dulled the responses and still wasn't amazingly quick.
The S-line package is gone, but the 3.0T offers a 19" Sport package which makes it more competitive with the M35 and 5 series. You can also finally get a power tilt/telescope steering wheel if you opt for the Prestige version.
The next generation 5 series will face stiff competition from the upcoming M37, which will have as much as 350hp, a much nicer interior, and hopefully improved NVAH. Audi's next gen A6 will move to their new modular platform, and will offer much better balance, and a sportier feel with Audi Drive Select.
Lexus, Mercedes, and Acura seem to offer little threat at this point.
The current 5 did reasonably well in EuroNCAP's side impact test. It's not the best car in the segment for safety, but it's not what I would call an unsafe car.
Also, the 5 can easily out handle and perhaps more importantly, out brake the RL. Honda brakes are almost universally bad. So the 5 is more likely to avoid accidents in the first place.
Almost bought it, but after I tried out the Acura RL, and being able to discount the RL for the price, better ratings on safety, and ride which is also fun, exciting at 120 mph, I decided for the RL. Both are excellent vehicle and choices. Either way a buyer will enjoy his/her choice. And yes I like to drive fast, just don't do it over 80 mph in my own vehicle unless I have too.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Does anyone know how to set up hands free link? I dont have book on it and is this bluetooth feature or something else?
I've definitely heard people say its cold, but to be honest, I don't get that same vibe. I love the exterior design, I always have, its edgy and aggressive. That's not to say I don't love the previous generation 5 series look, its just different. And the interior is fantastic (except for interior storage space) with excellent quality materials and superb attention to detail. You need to spend quite a bit of time in the car to appreciate the attention to detail. AND what an amazing steering wheel. I agree, its not really warm and fuzzy like some other cars but that doesn't really matter to me. I don't really feel that coldness about the interior some people feel. Quality, authenticity and driver oriented design are the most important things to me... and any little feelings of coldness about the interior went away once I put my foot on the pedal.
Yea agreed, the standard suspension on the A6 is dull, I drove the last model A6 with the S-line and the sport suspension definitely made the car enjoyable. That's why I'm hoping the new A6 will have an S-line pack at some point. I haven't driven the 3.0T 19" Sport pk model your talking about though. Hopefully the next-gen A6 will be much improved, I've always wanted to like the car but when driving it I always can away with a very "blah" feeling.
I can imagine that the new 5 will certainly face stiff competition from the M37. I love the 5 series but I definitely have respect for the M. It performs very well, quite fun to drive. Just didn't have some features that I liked (ie split folding rear seats) and the interior quality wasn't the best, and bad gas mileage. But other than that I really liked it, and I'm sure the M37 will be a pretty sweet performer and have made improvement in those other areas.
Lexus doesn't seem to offer any threat at all which I'm not surprised about.......unless they design a F model GS, a driver's GS, similar to the IS-F but without the garish looking fake tailpipes and at a competitive price. But that won't happen, haha.
Don't forget that while Infiniti and Audi will be improving the M and A6, the 5 series will without a doubt be even better so Infiniti and Audi was still have a very, very tough time on their hands if they want to overtake the 5 series. While I'm not biased in my driving opinions, I won't lie, I'm definitely a BMW fan but there is no bias when I say I think the 5 series is the best car in the segment.
Not to divert traffic from these forums, but for that kind of question you might be best looking in the bimmerfest.com forums or something like that. There would without a doubt be someone there who could answer that.
I'm not sure what the future of the F program is at this point. The LF-A was supposed to be an F car, but that may or may not ever be built. It's a sure bet that there will not be a GS-F for this generation. Lexus seems to be moving away from their performance experiment and towards greatly expanding their hybrid offerings. F-sport accessories will probably continue, but special F variants may not.
In any case, as an S6 owner, I'm much more interested in the next gen S6 which will have twin turbo V8 power and most likely the S4's torque vectoring "QuattroSport" AWD system. I also really want to take the XFR for a spin. I came close to buying an XF SC, but went with the Audi in part because I knew Jag had a much more powerful engine waiting in the wings.
I really don't think Lexus has any intention of trying to duplicate a 5 series any more than BMW wants to duplicate a GS, so likewise, I don't see any threats to the GS from BMW.
Both cars have their pros and cons with Lexus leaning more toward luxury and reliability and BMW toward austerity and performance. Neither one is right or wrong, just different. Some people like chocolate and some like vanilla.
IMO most people buy cars that fit with their own self image and/or to project an image of how they want others to perceive them. Psychology 101.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
As much as we're all taking about great performance and this and that, the fact is a lot of people do buy cars based on psychology. Being honest, even if Lexus made some amazing performance car to compete w/ the 5 series I would still have trouble thinking about purchasing it because of my image of Lexus. I definitely wouldn't feel right in it.
I also think our preferences can change over the years. For a long time it was either BMW or Mercedes for me but for the last 10 years or so it has been mostly Lexus, with a 2002 RL (very nice car) thrown in.
I have never owned an Audi but that might make a nice change. I would not rule one out in the future. It seems like sort of a compromise between BMW and Lexus.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
For me Lexus does not have anything over BMW. BMW handles better, it's faster ( in case of 535) and more luxurious. Without sports package it offers amazing blend of great handling and ride. Lexus might be more reliable, but I lease so it's not the most important factor.
honestly with the whole reliability thing, the 3 and 5 are fairly reliably cars, not like they used to be back in the 90s. And BMWs on the whole hold their value better than Lexus so the whole lease vs. purchase is even less of an argument.
That's a fair assessment. If you get a chance, drive an Audi at night. One of the things I like most about Audi is their fanatical attention to interior detail, and you really notice that at night when all the lights are on.
When researching the cars on the net, even Edmunds pics reflected the interior at night poorly. Too much glare, & a caption to the effect of a plane's cockpit at night.
I love how everything is lit with a nice, definitely, not too glaring red.
Indeed. I also like how the accent lighting, such as the button effect lights, are soft and don't clash with the main lighting. They are either amber or red, and are just bright enough to let you know at a glance that the button is on.
My wife's BMW uses ultra-bright green accent lights, which are distracting and clash with the overall orange hue. My favorite bit though is probably the little red LED strips above each door handle. I'm not positive, but I don't think anyone else has that.
That's a nice color combo... I've seen that somewhere... Just can't place my finger on it..
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Stay tuned.
Yep, it's called the ZDX, and it seems to be a sort of cross between the X6 and 5 series GT - a tall sedan/SUV/coupe thing with a sloping roofline and a hatchback. I don't really get it.
Stay tuned.
They aren't wrong, and I'm not guessing. The ZDX is a jacked up hatchback/SUV/crossover or whatever you want to call it, intended to go after the X6. I guess they figured somebody had to challenge the X6, but I have no idea why. As I predicted, it's much uglier in reality than the concept renderings suggested. No need to stay tuned, here it is in all its.. er.. "glory".
It is a 4 door crossover that is 61 inches tall.
Crossover, SUV, whatever. The label isn't important. My car is 56" tall, the Q5 is 65". So the ZDX is either a jacked up sedan, or a chopped SUV. Take your pick. My advice to Acura at this juncture would be to focus on their core products, and restyle them so that I don't have to suppress the urge to vomit every time I look at one. Chasing after microscopic BMW invented niches is not a smart move for a brand that is getting crushed by the competition.
It is nice though to see Acura join the 21st century with a 6-speed autobox.
:confuse:
How quickly they forget. :sick: Infiniti was the first in that niche w/ the FX. And considering that the FX has been around for several years, it's BMW and (maybe) now Acura who are challenging the FX.
And yet the 5 series gets five stars or a "good" rating in most or all of the other categories in other tests. So yes, if you think you are likely to be t-boned by a "moving deformable barrier" (specifically on the driver's side and not the passenger side) and if you're the type of person who chooses a vehicle based on just one of several safety ratings, then and Acura RL is probably a good choice for you.
By the way, I also own a 2008 Volvo XC70, which has great safety ratings. But the brakes can barely handle the weight of the car and it is so ludicrously slow that it is actually dangerous to drive in heavy urban traffic and areas where agile driving is required (like frequent merging onto busy highways and beltways.) I'd rather drive the BMW that has the agility, braking, and performance to avoid an accident.
One of my best friends totaled a BMW after a car clipped him at 60 mph and flipped his vehicle over a highway guard rail. He walked away from that crash literally with only a cut on the forehead. So I'll take my chances with the "moving deformable barrier" in a BMW.
Good observation and now BMW is inventing yet another micro niche with its BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/AllBMWs/ConceptVehicles/5SeriesGT/Default- - .aspx
The need to "self insure" makes this even more of a very expensive proposition.
Look at it this way: this is (or was) a high end car from its model year. Its safety reputation and even its performance reputation are decent.
The economy sucks.
Why not keep it, unless you for some reason don't need a car?
My point is that this is a "risky bargain."
Get a new Korean car from that company with the name beginning with an "H" -- or at least consider it.
This is based on my assumption that you were looking for a low price on what would be, new, a pretty expensive car.
So on both tests from the only two US agencies that do these tests the driver proved vulnerable and fared worse than in the RL (which was the vehicle that started this discussion).
This is meaningful to me because the driver's seat is the one I occupy. Also, the "moving deformable barrier" is the auto safety engineer's best approximation of the forces generated in a standardized, reproducible hit by another vehicle. In the case of a driver's side impact, that is the time when the driver is most vulnerable owing to the proximity of the impacting vehicle and the lack of significant deformable body structure in that location.
I'm glad your friend wasn't seriously injured in that rollover, but this kind of anecdotal information doesn't allow measured comparison with other vehicles. No doubt people have rolled Pintos and Corvairs and been fortunate enough to remain uninjured.
I agree with you about agility being another factor in accident avoidance and would never argue that it not be considered in a safety profile.
The 5 series does seem like a truly great car in so many respects that I am disappointed that the only response I got from one of their salespersons was to discount the testing..."that was one car on one day...". ..this while they have a framed certificate in the dealership for the 5 star crash rating of the 3 series. I trust that even if their salespersons don't have the grace to admit that this represents a problem their great engineers will solve this and remove it as an issue for those of us who care very much about moving deformable barriers.
If your budget can manage it, the '04s are rated much better than the '02s, especially the '04 2.5T five cylinder version. Or, you may want to consider something with easier maintenance, like an Accord.
The 5 did reasonably well in EuroNCAP's side impact test, but the 5 is not the best car in the segment for passive safety. There are a lot of factors that go in to making a car buying decision, and that's one factor. When I drove the the RL back when it was released, I found the seats to be uncomfortable, the cabin claustrophobic and cramped, the steering too heavy and completely numb, the transmission dimwitted and sluggish, throttle response poor, and ergonomics lousy. I would much rather drive a 535i than an RL, even if it is a bit less safe.
Fortunately there are a lot of choices in the midsize luxury segment, and the A6 is very safe, nice to drive, comfortable, and spacious.
But I digress...the Volvo had some significant problems, from a clunky transmission to noises that the service department could never figure out to a number of bad radios. For EACH problem we experienced, the car was back to the dealer 4 times for the same issue before it was sort of resolved.
I would never buy ANY Volvo without some kind of extended warranty, and you should definitely have the car gone over by a tech familiar with Volvo prior to purchasing.
Good luck.
Having said that, I would tend to agree that Volvo has quality issues (below average reliability) while Infiniti (at least the M) have 5 star reliability ratings and rated very high on most resources.
My M has been driven by some neutral experts, including a master technician from Nissan who is also trained on Infiniti, who told me the vibration would be unacceptable to him in a Sentra, let alone an M. The issue for me is not so much the problem itself than the way Infiniti handled it. When the vibration began causing a buzzing noise inside the car at certain speeds, the service manager of the dealership told me to "turn the radio up".
For the record the Volvo was driven by my wife, not me, and we are both very good to our cars--we do not drive them hard at all.
My choices for a new car now are the Audi A4 and the BMW 328xi. We drove the 335 and it is too much car for my wife.
Again good luck with the Volvo if you so choose.
I consider reliability as one of the biggest safety factors which most studies don't take into account. BMWs are far behind Acuras in terms of reliability. I have seen enough BMWs stranded on the roadside to never consider buying one.
Thanks for that list, interesting stuff. Acura deserves credit for their commitment to safety, and they also deserve credit for quickly improving the RL's quality to among the best in the segment after a very mediocre first model year. You'll get no argument from me there. The RL is a very well engineered product. It is however, IMO, a rather poorly designed product.
The A6 is both very well engineered and very well designed, and its quality as of late has been excellent, if not quite a match for the RL and M.
I expect delivery mid-late July.