Luxury Performance Sedans

merc1 · March 2005

Well I was speaking from a styling standpoint, not capability. Though I doubt if the driving experience is night and day either, especially from TL to RL.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

Agree on RL. As I've said before, cut 600 pounds out of it, or sell it for $45K, and it could've been 1. a real sporting contender, or 2. a typical Acura mega bang for the buck value. Its neither. Its too heavy and slow to play in the big leagues sport wise, and it doesnt come in a penny less than similarly equiped competition. Its simply an adequate effort. Worlds better than the previous RL, but that that isnt saying much.

merc1 · March 2005

Whoa! I just noticed your post. I wonder do the road test editors read these boards?

M

tiag_m5 · March 2005

The Acura RL is a flop if there ever was one. It doesn't do anything particularly well and it does several things quite poorly. It boasts a hefty 300hp yet it loses to a 225hp 530i in the 1/4 mile and only bests it from 0-60 by a few tenths of a second... not to mention BMW is turning up the power this spring with new engines. To make matters worse, you have to practically redline the tach to a screaming 5000rpms in order to access any torque. The RL has horrible nose heavy weight distribution (58/42) at a chart topping 4000lbs when other cars in this class have nearly perfect balance and a trim weight. Despite its super duper nifty handling AWD system, lateral grip isn't the best either. Perhaps the worst part about the RL is its brakes and primitive 3-channel ABS system circa 1985. In typical Honda fashion, the RL stops longer than any other car in its class and then some. C&D quoted the RL's 70-0 distance as being 180 feet! Heck, a BMW X5 weighs half a ton more and does the same stop in 167 feet according to C&D.

The new Infiniti M is leaps and bounds better than that pile it replaces, but I'm still not sold on its design. Nissan needs to take a different direction with its styling... The FX, G35 and Q45 were bad enough, and then they hit us with the M. There is something about Infiniti styling that just screams "rice racer" where Audi and MB say "sohpisticated class." Interior quality is vastly improved over the "rental car" look found in so many other Nissan/Infiniti vehicles, but still not on par with the likes of the competition. The M certainly sounds like the performer of the Japanese trio with its powerful V8 and good handling characteristics.

The new GS is a huge improvement design wise over the previous version IMO. I've never been a fan of Lexus styling but the new GS is actually quite attractive. The problem with Lexus is that they've been catering to the osteoporosis crowd for so long, that most people don't consider Lexus synonymous with performance as with BMW. It's going to take a lot for Lexus to steer its brand away from "senior citizens club," but the new GS is certainly a step in the right direction. Hopefully the new GS will be able to hold its own performance wise better than the last model!

We really need to see a knock-out comparison before any car in this group can be considered the performance king, but I wouldnt be surprised if the 545i retains its crown. In my opinion, the RL is a complete failure. I like the style of the GS and the performance of the M. That said, I wouldn't consider buying any of these cars for myself. I'll stick with the style, performance, safety and luxury of the European trio. One thing is for sure though, this segment has become fierce! Competition has never been a bad thing.

jlbl · March 2005

Good post, thank you. May I add a reflection on the Nissan strategy in relation to its new owner?

A few years ago, after Nissan financial failure in the 90's, the company was bought by French Renault. The actual CEO of Nissan is a FrenchmanI cannot remember his name now, sorry about. Before working for Renault, this man had directed the racing division of other French firm, Peugeot. He leaded this brand to win for several consecutive years the Rally World Championship (Montecarlo and all the stuff on snow/ice, ground and asphalt all year round). In Europe, this championship equals in popularity the F1. The technology developed for its rally cars is well different from that of F1. It however breaks even more new land every year for street cars. It must be remembered that in turn Renault has also a very successful racing history but in F1; in recent years, Renault has came successfully back into the race again.

Coming back to the point. By buying Nissan, the strategy of Renault was to get a good share in markets like the American that had proved to be very difficult in past years. Within Nissan, the strategy seems to be, as rboyd4 comments, to develop sporty sedans that could effectively compete to sedans more biased towards luxury, very much in the same way that BMW does in relation to MB. I am convinced that Nissan will continue making, on the other hand, many popular models as Renault does in Europe.

Regards,

Jose

jmatthe · March 2005

Dude, You are guilty of the same mis-matches as most of the comparos re the RL. First of all, wait until the BMW 530 is laden with the AWD system, optioned up then tested next to the RL. It will weight about the same, be slower and cost a hell of a lot more. Still will be lacking features,ergonomics, reliability, looks, and interior quality. In fact the RL beats it on safety as well. The last data I saw had the RL on par with others on stopping distances. My dealer service experience has been light years better and actually caused me to switch from BMW to Acura alone. It's about the whole package here. If you are talking sports cars, then track performance is what matters. Maybe.

Any comparo I have seen with the 545 has lead to MB winning with the E 500 anyway. Both cars are 66K with options and in a different category.

merc1 · March 2005

Who has compared the 545i and E500?

M

merc1 · March 2005

I don't care what any of you guys say this car out classes them all:

M

bartalk3 · March 2005

Ok, I'm outvoted, drop the Pontiac analogy to Infiniti. I think what I meant was not the Pontiac of today but of yesterday, when Detroit was still king and GM's still sold 50% of the cars in America.

At that time, Pontiac was GM's performance division, with "Wide Track" muscle cars, big V-8s, rear drive, and names connoting speed and power: Grand Prix, Grand Am, Bonneville, as well as GTO, Firebird, Trans-am, etc. Pontiac was GM's hot rod, just as in this comparo Edmunds called the M45 the hot rod of the group. Ok?

bartalk3 · March 2005

Please, no more Saab stories.

jlbl · March 2005

"Any comparo I have seen with the 545 has lead to MB winning with the E 500 anyway."

Hmm look at pp. 14-22 in #1 issue of Winding Road electronic magazine at www.windingroad.com

Jose

qbrozen · March 2005

yeah, well, wake me up when we can buy one here in the States. Which will be ... oh .... never. (and please don't state 2007 because that date, which was already pushed back 3 times, was with GM money. Now that GM is out of the picture, don't expect it to ever happen.)

senneca01 · March 2005

merc1,

I am not sure if the editors read the forums or not. They probably don't even care what their loyal fans have to say. They screwed this comparison test up royally. Do you really think they are going to admit any mistakes that they made? I highly doubt it. They don't care if their reviews have a shred of truth to them or not. The consumer who visits this website is the one who gets ill-informed. All they care about it the check that goes to their bank accounts.

kyfdx · March 2005

Read the review.. Take the information that is relevant.. Ignore the rest...

Who cares if they name one car better than another, and what possible difference could it make?

Were you the same guys in grade school that said your Dad could beat up my Dad?

jrock65 · March 2005

The specs and "BYO" for the 2006 5 with the new 255hp an 215hp engines are now up on bmwusa.com. Both the 525i and 530i use 3.0L engines. BMW estimates 6.6s 0-60 for the 530i auto, and 7.6s 0-60 for the 525i auto.

MSRP seems to have gone up about $500 for the 525i and about $1000 for the 530i. The options and package, and their prices, remain the same.

rich545 · March 2005

I have to agree with others that already responded; where did you see the E500 beating the 545i? It's not as fast nor does it handle as well. The only area where SOME people seem to like it better is in styling which is a completely subjective thing. I'm not saying the cars aren't close performance-wise, but the 545i does have the edge in that arena.

mg808 · March 2005

The comparo test by Edmunds was a very ill attempt at getting some results. You can't match cars that aren't exact in specs...That said....

The Acura RL can only be compared to AWD, V6 sedans that are LOADED.

The Lexus GS300 AWD is too small and underpowered = No Comparison. Lexus Luxury = More Plastic than Wood, take a look for yourself in the 2006, Its a really lame job by Lexus.

Infiniti M35x = Nice layout and in essence a mirror copy of the Acura RL (plus or minus a few things). Waiting for a test drive from the dealer.

IMO Infiniti seems to be more gimick than car company. Maybe with the CEO's new direction, that will change, but all they do is chase, chase, chase. No identity. Are they after MB, BMW, Lexus ? Who are you trying emulate, they don't even know...

At least with Lexus you know they are all about Luxury, while Acura has always provided a car that has a large dose of reality which equates to a nice price point, luxury & reliability.

What's Infiniti ?

pat · March 2005

>> I wonder do the road test editors read these boards?

I think they do from time to time, but you can't count on them seeing everything that is posted. For anyone who wants to make sure they hear you, the best thing to do is use the Feedback link at the top of the page ... as well as post your comments here for everyone else, of course.

pat · March 2005

Please do not use "rice" terms in our Forums. As they arose from an offensive ethnic slur, we'd rather not have them here. If you have questions, feel free to email me (don't post them here). Thanks!

rayainsw · March 2005

I posted on the M35/M45 board. . .
Just f.y.i.

jrock65 · March 2005

2005 E320:

MSRP ($48,500) - Invoice ($45,105) = $3395 or 7.5%

2005 530i:

MSRP ($45,400) - Invoice ($41,495) = $3905 or 9.4%

2006 M35:

MSRP ($39,900) - Invoice ($36,676) = $3224 or 8.8%

2006 GS300:

MSRP ($42,900) - Invoice ($36,465) = $6435 or 17.6%

Interesting, the M35 invoice is actually higher than the GS300 invoice. Lexus dealers must LOVE Toyota USA.

bartalk3 · March 2005

Wow, what a spread between invoice and sticker on the GS. Too bad us buyers won't see any of that for a long while.

jjacura · March 2005

Geesh Merc...I just came back in here and read Your and Lexasguy's follow up on my RL post. When do you guys sleep? I noticed the time stamp on your posts. Even retired guys like me go to bed sometime. I noticed these pictures. Nice lines. Give us some more info on these cars. JJ
PS Is Merc short for Mercury? :-) LOL

jmatthe · March 2005

Roundel of all places...not in overall performance, but overall package. R&T rated the e320 way ahead of the 530...sorry, meant to say 5 series vs the E class.

merc1 · March 2005

Well I'm at work now so.....

Nope, of course "Merc" isn't short for any American brand of car.

M

merc1 · March 2005

Well I've never really been a fan of Edmunds reviews because they swing widely it seems. They said the current SL500 was underwhelming and then put it over every other car in the segment by far and couldn't stop raving about it.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

Good point. Usually (though not in 100% of cases) when you read a comparison test in C&D, or Motortrend, you have an idea of whose going to win before you read the test. Those magazines have a certain way of thinking about cars, certain aspects of the entire experience means more to them, and cars that best match their particular expectations usually win. In Edmunds, on the other hand, the winners of comparison tests seem to be almost entirely at the whim of the particular writer at the time. This time it appears to have been written by a bunch of old fogeys that picked the GS because it was oooo so comfy! If it was written by an editor more interested in handling than easy to use controls, the M45 most likely would've won.

merc1 · March 2005

I saw this on another board:

Audi......beauty with brains
BMW.....sportiness with class
MB......elegance with muscle

I found this to be right on the money as far as the German brands go. How would the Japanese luxury car fans here group Lexus, Infiniti and Acura?

M

lexusguy · March 2005

Its harder to describe them. Infiniti and Acura have done an about face in terms of their products in just the last few years. Lexus is precision crafted luxury. That has essentially always been their mission. Acura and Infiniti are teenagers that are still "finding themselves".

bartalk3 · March 2005

Audi is beauty with brains? (Probably ought to be beauty without brains, considering all the electronic glitches.)

What about the GS? A friend of mine has an '04 GS, black with darkened windows. When he approaches, it's downright menacing, and confirms the original Lexus commercial for the car, taken from Shakespeare, "Something wicked this way comes..."

The new GS, on the other hand, he describes as "feminine". I actually think there's something to that. Something about the softened lines and curves of the car and the voluptuous interior. It's not macho enough for him, and he prefers his black getaway car.

pasgener · March 2005

"Teenagers finding themselves"?? Not so sure about that. Infiniti has become "sporting luxury with value" (G35, G35c, new M35/45, FX35/45). Acura has been "Honda plus" for a number of years.

markcincinnati · March 2005

Acura, it has been written, wanted to produce -- in the Legend -- the Japanese Audi. Budget (or high value) Sport-Luxury (and if you were Audi, plus quattro). Until the new RL, based significantly on a long test drive of a new TL, I assumed Acrua's rival (from Europe) remained Audi. When the RL came out, I thought, naah Acura is off on another road. But then the new A6 came out and I thought again.

Acura seems to be targeting (for conquest) Audi; while Audi, in Germany at least, has targeted BMW for conquest.

Having spent a reasonable amount of time "in and around" both the RL and the GS (at the auto show here in late Feb) and having driven the Audi A4 & A6, both Mercedes and BMW's small and midsized cars and Infiniti's secret weapons the G35x and the M35x, here is my take on the current rivalry German to Japanese. If it is not a rivalry, then at least the following equivocation is meant to suggest where these brands must feel their foreign competition stacks up.

Acura = Audi
Infiniti = BMW, then Audi
Lexus = Mercedes

Broadening this to include same country rivalry:

Audi = Acura, BMW, Infiniti
BMW = Audi, Infiniti
Mercedes = Phaeton (possibly other VW's over time), Lexus, BMW (7 series).

I certainly do not mean to suggest I think these are "=" [equal] cars, I used the equal sign to denote what I have read about the marketing and engineering (in that order) approach.

Audi certainly must concern itself with Mercedes, especially the A8 and the S class (and now more than ever that so many Mercedes can be had with 4Matic).

Acura must look at Lexus as a competitor for market share, too. However, based on reading too many car magazines for too many years, it does seem that Lexus, for example, has attempted to be the Japanese Mercedes and that Infiniti is becoming the Japanese BMW.

Of course, were I an exec @ Audi of America corp headquarters and I picked up my copy of today's Wall Street Journal with the slick plastic wrap proclaiming "Introducing the All-Wheel-Drive Lexus GS," I might feel I was being "attacked on all fronts" by Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volvo and even VW.

My BMW and Mercedes owning friends and colleagues, kid me without mercy, saying that Audis are VW's who know somebody, Acuras are Honda's that know somebody, Infiniti's are Nissans that. . .and that Lexus are simply Toyota's that . . . well you get the idea.

If Audis lease programs stay in the "incomprehensible zone," I would think the Infiniti would be a no-brainer. Hopefully Audi gets its head out of its nose and doesn't allow me to walk away.

mg808 · March 2005

Very nice write up.

Its funny how the Japanese stigma of Toyota, Honda & Nissan is very hard to shake off.

Lexus has tried and done the best job. The others still show a design lineage from their parent companies.

Pureists (if there are any), will always say mention the parent companies, instead of Lexus/Acura/Infiniti.

In the end, its what you want to drive.

Its also interesting how the Japanese car companies target their german rivals and one-up them in design, relability and price.

jrock65 · March 2005

How come the "lesser" Avalon has the remote engine starter, but the luxury GS and upcoming IS don't have this feature/option?

lexusguy · March 2005

I would argue that Infiniti is still working on that. There's nothing sporting about the Q45. Once their entire line is focused on sport first like BMW's is, then yeah, sure. But while there are still remaining stragglers from the "old" Infiniti days, not quite.

Mark, Audi might have been the original focus for Acura's Legend, but unlike Lexus who stuck to their S class guns with the LS, Acura lost that focus long ago. The Legend became RL, a boring, bland, completely unsporting car that wasnt a particularly good value, whose target was ES shoppers, and I guess LS (or so Acura wished). The Vigor was bland nothing, and the TL that replaced it was bland nothing until about '99 or so. The rest of Acura's products we're "Honda plus" as it was put.

jerry horton · March 2005

I think the "Parent company" argument could be made for more than just Japanese brands. The most notable of which is Audi (VW). Take a look at the new Passat. There is a striking resemblance to the A6. Also, you are beginning to find Mercedes parts in Chryslers. On more of a hypothetical note, I wouldn't buy a Maybach if I had the money, because it uses so many Mercedes parts. This kind of thing happens with all manufacturers, all more concerned with the bottom line than individuality.

untrue · March 2005

That is because most lexus,infiniti and Acura cars are actually sold in their native countries under their Toyota, Nissan and Honda badges.

footie · March 2005

That's why the stigma has reversed.

There's no stigma associated with buying Japanese any more and hasn't been for about 10 years, ever since their QA improvements left the stagnant U.S. companies and ever falling German companies falling behind.

The stigma, is 'why in the world did you pay more money for something that works worse?'

Or as my sister in Savannah says when I ask her why in the world she drives an Acura RL when her friends drive MB's and BMW's. She say 'I got the money honey, I just dont' got the time'. What she says in private company about her friends...well, that's private.

merc1 · March 2005

That sort of thing may be happening with all car companies, but with two leading German brands BMW and Mercedes it happens a lot less than in Japanese cars. Everyone knows that a Maybach is just a giant Mercedes, the kind of car they always wanted to make anyway. BMWs are pure as pure can be, they share nothing with any other brands. Even the Mini is a fwd car unrelated to a BMW. The Phantom uses a 6.75L version of the BMW V12, but it isn't even close to a 7-Series in construction. Yes there are Mercedes parts a whole lot of engineering in Chrysler, but nothing in the reverse like Chrysler parts in a Mercedes.

VW and Audi are a lot like Toyota in Lexus, from styling to engines and everything else they share a lot from their "regular" brands to the luxury one. Though other than the grille I don't think the new Passat looks anything like the A6, imo.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

I was very surprised to see how much body sits behind the rear wheels on the new Passat. Its side profile seems almost buick-ish with such a big butt.

merc1 · March 2005

I'll have to look at the picks again, because I didn't see anything even close to a Buick about the Passat. VW/Audi does have a lot of front overhang on a lot of their cars and everyone knows why.

M

liy · March 2005

I don't why (VW/Audi) has "a lot of front overhang on a lot of their cars..." Why?

LIY

markcincinnati · March 2005

We all have our opinions and perspectives on the cars we discuss here, but here is another voice from the new C&D (writing about the new GS):

"All told, the GS300 AWD provides a driving experience that's exactly what we've come to expect from Lexus: creamy, competent and quiet, augemented by beautiful interior appointments and celestial sound. None of that adds up to passion, at least to us. But for most prospective buyers, that won't matter."

Jay Leno too was attributed with saying something to the effect, ". . .Lexus makes perfect cars, perfectly boring cars."

I have not driven the Lexus, but I sat in the three new Japanese rivals, the GS, M and RL. The Lexus certainly had the lux/posh routine down pat. It was beautiful on a scale of 1 to 10 at an 11.

I am 53, the Lexus seems to appeal to someone much older than I, in the same way, I used to think Cadillacs and Buicks and Lincolns appealed to the post AARP set.

If, forced to choose, today between these three contestants, I would go with the M. Yet, this may not be fair, since I have only driven the M -- who knows, driving either the GS or the RL might change my mind.

Thankfully, I do not have to make the decision today.

bartalk3 · March 2005

Mark, What were the acceleration and skidpad figures for the GS300 C&D tested? Thanks.

hpowders · March 2005

I drove the GS 430 and it will not appeal to the AARP set.

merc1 · March 2005

It has to do with Audi's engine/transmission layout. In most of their cars the bulk of the engine's mass sits in front of the front axle which makes the front section sort of longish looking, on some models. Audi being a expert stylist can usually hide this, but not always. The layout also has an adverse affect on handling, especially compared to BMW, which they want to compete with model for model.

They're getting better are moving all the hardware towards the center of the car, or behind the front axle line, but still. The A8 and VW Phaeton for example still have most of their engine in front of the front axle, not good for handling.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

This is what I'm talking about. The new Passat seems to have more hanging off the rear than the front.

merc1 · March 2005

Oh, I see what you mean. There might be an extra inch or so on the rear overhang compared to the front, but I hardly see where it makes the car even close to being unattractive imo. This new Passat just like the old one when it was introduced, looks better than anything in its segment, imo. Simply gorgeous to me. Cars like the Maxima, Avalon, Accord and Camry look like lawnmowers in comparison.

M

jjacura · March 2005

Mark, Now that you mentioned your age, I've got you by 10 years. (Which has nothing to do with anything... :-) But I Always enjoy your posts. Well almost always. The one thing I can't figure is.... When are you going to make time and test drive the RL. It's been around 4 months longer that the M you drove. But you talk about it all the time and you are in the RL forum all the time.

lexusguy · March 2005

I agree the Accord, Maxima, and Camry arent much to look at. I like the looks of the new IS, G, and TL better than this Passat though.

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