Luxury Performance Sedans

shmang · October 2009

Well, the M35 does not requires Premium fuel, it is recommended, but would run fine on Regular. Also, the M35 has 40 more hp (even compared with the bigger engine from Azera) and much better chassis and handling characteristics. You know it take more gas to generate power in general (when comparing with similar technology - no Hybrid). In history, CR has not been a big fan of Infiniti, so they chose M35 for a reason I believe.

bruceomega · October 2009

Were you referring to the M35 when you said "you can feel the 390lbtq pulling"?

Acccording to the Inifnity web site, the torque rating for the M35 is 262 lb-ft @ 4,800 rpm.

tayl0rd · October 2009

I was wondering where he pulled that 390 lb-ft of torque from, too. I don't even think the M45 has 390 lb-ft! :confuse:

m4m · October 2009

Sorry guys for confusion... at the time of writing I was also talking to my buddy about E550, so thats where that number came from. My M uses a 3.5 liter V6 engine newly tuned to provide 303 horsepower and 268 lb-ft of torque with 7 spd trans. Which is plenty to have fun with! : )

carolinabob · October 2009

Just found more info. on the website. 08 E350 has all red, with many full circles. Insufficient data for 09 models. Definitely looking better for M-B.
Personally I think this is really good because many owners of true "luxury" cars expect a whole lot and are quick to mark them down if less than perfect. Whereas, many cars that have luxury features, but sell for much less are marked higher because the owners are so happy to have paid a lot less for them.

houdini1 · October 2009

Of the 33 car brands in the reliability survey, Mercedes is rated #23. Hardly a glowing recommendation. The top 8 places are all Asian brands.

Included in the top 8 are 3 luxury brands: Infinity is ranked #4, Acura #5, and Lexus #7.

carolinabob · October 2009

I looked at the chart and while that is true, you have to consider other factors. The newest reliability ratings for E350 are all reds, with most full circles (best ratings). Insufficient data for 09's.
Also, while M-B may be 23rd, it also had some models that are better than some models at the very top of the list. Unfortunately, I couldn't locate a by model list. That is why it is important to compare specific models when looking for data.
It appears that some of the M-B models really drag down the brand and some of the past years contribute to this as well.
Good news is that it is improving.

m4m · November 2009

It appears that some of the M-B models really drag down the brand and some of the past years contribute to this as well.

2010 MB E350 , here you go:

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212/323593-cruise-control-error-message.h- tml

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212/319993-another-problem.html

houdini1 · November 2009

How many times are you going to fall for that. Every time a new model comes out they say, yes, we know we've had problems in the past...but no more. Then it is the same old thing all over again.

It is not just the problematic cars, it's also the stonewalling dealers and Mercedes corporate that turns me off. They need to take a page out of the Lexus playbook. With Lexus, the customer is always right. Certainly no so with Mercedes.

m4m · November 2009

Since we are approaching another winter season more people will look for AWD models. I found this really cool review, with very good points and with some entertaiment along as well:

http://www.nadaguides.com/Garage-Blo....aspx#continue

Enjoy

houdini1 · November 2009

Your link would not work for me but I agree that Infiniti makes some great cars !!

m4m · November 2009

"...M45x is not a car you see often because the crowd tends to move towards BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi when shopping in this segment. However, I think this car more than holds its own in this segment."

http://www.nadaguides.com/Garage-Blog/2009-Infiniti-M45x.aspx#continue

link has been fixed

carolinabob · November 2009

And your point is? Two problems on new cars and both fixed as far as I could tell.
With the technology and other features on today's luxury cars, there is far more room for error. Lexus dealer told me that in some LS460's they were having to replace whole engines due to problems, not to mention others they "refined".
This is one of problems with reliability surveys, many of the worst case scenarios never get reported or surveyed.

houdini1 · November 2009

Mercedes have always had their share of electronics problems and probably always will. That is just the way it is.

Whole engines being replaced in the LS 460? I guess anything is possible. Do you have a link or did you just make that up?

markcincinnati · November 2009

When I see comments here quoting Consumer Reports as supporting reasons to or not to do something with respect to this class of cars, I am unmoved. Indeed, if Consumer Reports liked this or that car, I would ALMOST consider looking much more carefully at the one they didn't like.

It is, of course, a free country and to each his or her own, but a combination of edmunds, Car and Driver and about 3 other enthusiasts magazine reviews typically would sway me more than anything Consumer Reports writes.

Sure the manufacturer makes the car, but the dealer makes the ownership experience (at least that has worked for me for well over two dozen cars) bad, fair, good or great.

Test drive the cars you are considering in EXACTLY the same way on the same roads, with the same tunes on the sound systems with the AC set at the same temp, etc, etc, read the passionate published reports, view the you tube videos, WHATEVER, just do like George Castanza, "the opposite" of what Consumer Reports says, and you will be a happier camper.

:shades:

lexusguy · November 2009

just do like George Castanza, "the opposite" of what Consumer Reports says, and you will be a happier camper.

CR's recommendations for similar cars in mainstream categories are pretty accurate. For example, the highest rated family sedans are the Altima, Accord, and Legacy, which is a reasonable assessment. The two worst rated in that class are the Sebring and Avenger, and buying one of those two because CR hates them is a very bad idea.

The trouble starts in categories like luxury sedans, where they are comparing totally different cars in different size and price classes, and they begin to lose all credibility. The Acura RL is a better car than the A6, 5 series, and A8? Really CR?

The "sporty cars" section has similar problems, like having a Scion tC in the same section as a BMW 135i.

I also find it rather offensive that paid subscribers are expected to pay again for "premium" access to things like pricing guides and full track test data. Wow, you sure can't get that anywhere else!

rockshocka1 · November 2009

I wish there was someway to determine the ROI of the RL since it's inception. To me, it seems like money thrown down the crapper based on sales figures here in the US. I can't believe it does much better in other markets, like the A6 being solid around the world if not here, but I could be wrong.

jimsxn · November 2009

What to look for/be careful about? I come from a generation of owning Japanese cars - the only American car I owned, gave me no end of trouble. I am attracted to Volvo for ride comfort, ease of entry and exit, space (family of four) and a dash of driving fun. Too much to ask? Why do people buy a Volvo nowadays when all cars are equally safe? Is there a better choice for about the same chunk of change?
Thanks all. Also, I would not mind somebody trying to knock some sense into me.

lexusguy · November 2009

I wish there was someway to determine the ROI of the RL since it's inception. To me, it seems like money thrown down the crapper based on sales figures here in the US. I can't believe it does much better in other markets, like the A6 being solid around the world if not here, but I could be wrong.

Good question. It's sold as the Honda Legend in Japan and Australia, but I'm not sure where else. I don't think Honda sells anything above the Accord Euro in Europe. I can't imagine that Australian and Japanese sales account for much, especially considering Japan's terrible domestic auto market these days.

If I were a long time Acura dealer I wouldn't be very pleased with HQ these days. They took away the Legend and replaced it with a barge that has never sold. They turned the ugly knob up to 11, and just after many dealers completed significant and expensive upgrades to their stores in preparation for the brand's "tier 1" upmarket push, Acura decided that because of the economy they're going to completely abandon that idea, and scrap everything they were working on. Maybe there will be a new RSX for 2013. There's something.

lexusguy · November 2009

I am attracted to Volvo for ride comfort, ease of entry and exit, space (family of four) and a dash of driving fun. Too much to ask? Why do people buy a Volvo nowadays when all cars are equally safe? Is there a better choice for about the same chunk of change?

The previous generation S80 was never more than a middling car. The seats are OK, but not nearly as comfortable as some Volvos past. Rear legroom and trunk space are average for a mid-size car. The 2.5T is reasonably quick in the S60, but it's weighed down by the S80 and is on the sluggish side. I suppose it depends on what you would consider a "dash" but the S80 was about as fun to drive as an Avalon or Hyundai Azera. Brutal depreciation makes them affordable, but service bills will be just as high as a BMW or Mercedes shop.

I wouldn't say that "all" cars are equally safe, but a Volvo is no safer than an Audi, Honda, Subaru, etc. I'm not sure why people buy them. Other than their safety rep which is largely irrelevant these days, Volvo doesn't specialize or excel at anything. Their powertrains are always a generation behind the real luxury players, and their electronics are stuck in the stone age.

As an alternative to the Volvo, I would suggest looking at '08 Accords. They have similar space, and are more involving to drive. The Accord is also something you could keep for a long time, whereas high mileage Volvos tend to become maintenance hogs.

jlbl · November 2009

"It's sold as the Honda Legend in Japan and Australia, but I'm not sure where else. I don't think Honda sells anything above the Accord Euro in Europe."

In addition to the Accord, the Legend is sold over here too.

Regards,
Jose

houdini1 · November 2009

The trouble starts in categories like luxury sedans, where they are comparing totally different cars in different size and price classes, and they begin to lose all credibility.

Forbes just named the the Jaguar XF as one of the top ten clunkers to avoid. Part of their "research" came from CR. The Mercedes GL 450 also made the list.

lexusguy · November 2009

Forbes just named the the Jaguar XF as one of the top ten clunkers to avoid. Part of their "research" came from CR. The Mercedes GL 450 also made the list.

I struggle to think of worse automotive "journalism" than the stuff from Forbes. Their articles are entirely meaningless. Just words on paper. About as bad as Jean Jennings.

amerjam · November 2009

We have just eaten $5000 replacing the transmission on our S-80. We have had Volvo's all our lives and this is a first. It's a 2004 and we contacted Volvo of America, but they would only give limited assistance. Something isn't right here. We have never experienced this problem through the years. You would think that since we go religiously for service that a company such as this would have been more helpful. Sadly, I am no longer impressed with these cars - the track record is out the window.

rayainsw · November 2009

What miles?
[ Edit:
And what model \ motor ? ]
Assuming that you are out of MFR warranty period,
4 years \ 50,000 miles,
- just curious - what exactly did you expect from Volvo?
- Ray
Drove several Volvos many miles - back to a PV544 in College..

qbrozen · November 2009

In case you haven't already read, the T6 uses a GM transmission and is prone to failures. I would dump the car ASAP.

rayainsw · November 2009

"I would dump the car ASAP. "
Well - just having put $5K into a car worth something
like $10-$12K -
and having replaced the trouble-prone component,
I'm not sure that is the most prudent course...
- Ray
Out $5K, I think I'd keep it and hope to
amass a few more $$s before changing cars...

qbrozen · November 2009

well, ok, I was overstating it a bit. Yes, with a new trans, I would hold it for a while, but not TOO long.

Oh, and its only worth maybe $8k on a trade. I wouldn't have spent $5k on it in the first place. But that's me.

rayainsw · November 2009

"Member Since: November 18, 2009 "
And only this one post.
Oh, well....
My point here was only that the mfr wty is
[ whatever it is ]
and I would NOT expect the mfr to pay for
the full cost of any major repair past the terms.
Else why set terms?
Just my 0.2 gallons worth...
- Ray
Personally, would not have a Volvo
[ or any other car ]
past the mfr mty....

james27 · November 2009

On the Nissan home site, they posted a press release on the new Fuga, which will be the new 2010 Infiniti M when it hits the US in March. While there have been pictures floating around, these show the (Japanese) production car and discusses some of the new stuff available in the car. The (real) silver powder used in the finish of the wood give it an elegant look. They use active noise-cancelling technology to quiet the cabin. One speaker in each door panel and one on the rear deck. It's incorporated with the Bose stereo. That's one thing I really don't like on my 2006 M, the sound level is still annoying on a long (boring) trip on the interstate after spending about $1k on adding noise mats (Dynamat) to the whole thing except for the roof. Anyway, you can read it yourself at http://press.nissan-global.com/EN/CORPORATE/report2009.html#091119

tlong · November 2009

Personally, would not have a Volvo
[ or any other car ]
past the mfr mty....

Cool! You can prop up the economy and the automakers, and I can get a well-depreciated luxury sedan for less money and get 100K miles out of it. :shades:

rayainsw · November 2009

"Cool! You can prop up the economy and the automakers, and I can get a well-depreciated luxury sedan for less money and get 100K miles out of it."

I live to serve...
- Ray
Doing my part to 'prop up the economy'.
With [ extended ] mfr wty to past where I will likely sell or trade...

jimbres · November 2009

Agreed. So many people don't understand that post-warranty repairs generally cost less than new car depreciation.

tayl0rd · November 2009

True enough, jim, but that new car depreciation is amortized over the term of the loan, and you don't feel the sting unless you want out too soon. Whereas, a [major] repair bill is the equivalent of being hit in the face w/ a 1x6 plank when you aren't looking! :surprise:

jimbres · November 2009

Whereas, a [major] repair bill is the equivalent of being hit in the face w/ a 1x6 plank when you aren't looking!

And that's why I maintain a sizeable emergency fund - so that I can cover big bills without breaking a sweat.

I know that putting aside money from today's paycheck so that you can deal comfortably with tomorrow's unpleasant surprises is so, I dunno, prehistoric, but I am old & set in my ways.

tlong · November 2009

True enough, jim, but that new car depreciation is amortized over the term of the loan...

Who said anything about loans?

Pay cash and save those payments and that interest, and you have enough for your next car in a few years.

jimbres · November 2009

Strongly agree. We haven't financed any of our cars since the late 80s.

I also think that cash buyers (1) keep their cars longer, (2) spend more time researching their purchases & (3) are less likely to buy impulsively. That's been our experience, at any rate.

One more thing: Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

tayl0rd · December 2009

Well, it's not like paying cash for a car makes it immune to depreciation and repair bills.

fonefixer · December 2009

Mark..... How is it going with your A4 premium sedan? Your best Audi yet out of maybe 10 you have leased/owned in the past?

markcincinnati · December 2009

My 2009 A4 Prestige with Audi Drive Select, 19" sport package, almond wood trim, navigation+rear camera and power rear sunshade is either "about the same" as the outgoing A6 or, for the detail minded, a substantial upgrade in several key areas.

First off, the B8 A4 has a 110+" wheelbase -- very very close to the C6 A6. The C6 is a bit wider and from front to rear is longer -- but the 6+" wheelbase stretch made the essentially unchanged C6 A6 (unchanged from 2004) less interesting.

The B8 is RWD biased AWD and due to its configuration, now, has better F/R weight balance than the C6. The B8 is lighter, too. To me, the RWD bias is, frankly, more academic than anything else, but I do understand the possible advantages of the RWD bias over the C6's 50 50 split.

The biggest plusses for the B8 (at least as I have it configured) are the previously noted F/R balance and RWD bias coupled with the 19" sport suspension option (which means the tires are 19" and 35 series) and sport seats and sport steering wheel (with paddle shifters). The icing on the cake is the Audi Drive Select option which essentially gives you 27 different "individual" tuning points for the engine/transmission, suspension compliance or cushy-ness and dynamic steering settings.

Equipped in Prestige trim, the B8 is essentially, sitting behind the wheel, about 97% C6 in terms of everything you can see and touch, press, turn or activate. The -3% is that the C6 is a tiny bit wider and has sexy led interior lighting built in at approximately the upper third of the four doors. The C6 also had front AND rear heated seats, whereas the B8 only warms the fronts.

The B&O sound system is a huge improvement over the C6 Bose unit.

The sport seats, too, are an improvement over the A6's comfort seats.

The blind spot warning system is a must have and the single pushbutton for start and stop engine is an improvment.

The 258 pound feet of torque from sub 2K rpm with the upgraded 6 speed tiptronic make me only long for ONE thing from the 3.2 A6 -- the sweet engine sounds at full cry (the A4 is simply OK in this respect).

Overall, I believe the 2009 A4 is as deserving of the "luxury" label as was the 2005 A6; but, time marches on and I assume the A4 remains firmly in what, today, passes for near-luxury sporty sedan. However, the A4 is far more capable in terms of its ability to carve around corners and, with the ADS dynamic mode engaged, far more confidence inspiring in any kind of spirited driving.

In comfort mode the A4 seems comparable to the A6 in terms of "being, er, comfortable," but 35 series tires are a bit less forgiving than the C6's 40 series 18 inchers, so you do tend to "feel" the road more with the A4 (for me, that's a good thing.)

I did not get premium paint, so I did save hundreds of dollars over my C6's pricey $775 paint job -- but still, my A4 with the optional exhaust tips and the now optional Audi Assurance (all maint is free for 50K miles) came in at $49K and change. My outgoing A6 was $53,286 by comparison -- frankly the A6 seemed more of a "bargain" if any car that is north of $45K can be so designated. The lease payments are about the same and I did get a 50K lease (the C6 was a 45K lease.)

The mildly facelifted C6 with the supercharged engine would certainly be a car that I would not kick out of bed for eating crackers, but its price has swelled so much that one equipped as close as possible to my 2005 A6 would have been about $6,000 more. Given that I rarely have passengers, the A4 somehow seemed,er, an environmentally astute choice. Well, if you say it fast enough and emphasize the 4 cylinder engine that uses FSI and turbo charging, it could well be, uh, "astute."

Anyway, the B8 for 2009 did NOT come with the 3G MMI which means I had ZERO learning curve, but it also means I did not get the hard drive, the new graphics and the other improvments that time and next gen technologies typically provide.

I've had the A4 about 15 months, it has 25K miles on it and save for replacing the stock summer only tires with UHP A/S at 7,000 miles, it has had no issues other than normal maint. It is quick, fast, fun and, as my wife is wont to say, "goes like a snake in a rat hole."

With the current economic realities, despite having had over 2 dozen of these wonderful cars, I only have one negative comment, and that is, "I am beginning to question the VALUE of virtually ANY European car, and that, unfortunately, includes this one. Man, they are GIVING AWAY Cadillac AWD FE2 suspension equipped CTS's.

rayainsw · December 2009

.. to read your updates, Mark.
- Ray

cdnpinhead · December 2009

What Ray said.

Thanks.

lexusguy · December 2009

Equipped in Prestige trim, the B8 is essentially, sitting behind the wheel, about 97% C6 in terms of everything you can see and touch, press, turn or activate.

Eh... I'm not quite sure I'd go that far. The B8 has loads more technology than previous A4s, but I feel like the other side of that is they had to cut costs dramatically and it shows a bit too much for a premium car. The door pulls are rock hard plastic, and the center stack and console look and feel a bit cheap IMHO. The interiors in the B5 and B6 A4s simply blew away the competition from BMW and Mercedes. The B8 doesn't accomplish that. It's class competitive, but that's about as far as I can go.

Ultimately I would have a hard time choosing the A4 2.0T over a G37x. The A4 is a great looking car, but the just updated G has a more attractive front end than the '07-'09, and is also quite handsome. The 3.7L engine isn't the most refined in the world, but neither is the 2.0T, and of course the power difference is massive.

The new S4 is a fantastic machine, but the A4.. I don't know, I just don't feel like it's worthy of a $50K price tag.

markcincinnati · December 2009

My perception or comparison, if you like, was from this perspective:

I got out of a 2005 Audi C6 A6 which was pretty well loaded and walked over to my new 2009 Audi B8 A4 (about 15 months ago). The switchgear, the steering wheel (although my A6 did not have paddle shifters), the console, the wood, the feel of the leather, the seat's firmness, the instrument cluster, the soft plastic on the dash, the a/c vents, every knob, button, leaver, etc -- had been "transplanted" or copied from the A6 (my previous A6.) The look, out the windshield, virtually everything about the B8 was taken from the A6. The volume knob, the sat nav, the voice recognition, the bluetooth, etc etc etc -- at least 97% the same as the outgoing A6.

I was not -- indeed I cannot -- compare the B8 to a new G37x, I haven't been up close and personal to a G for 1.5+ years. Since my wife has a 2008 BMW, we do spend a fair amount of time loitering at the BMW Store -- and I do believe that the B8 still has a much nicer interior than the current 3 series (and 5 series even).

I did look at a 2008 and, as I recall, a 2009 Infiniti G (but not the 2010's) and AT THAT TIME, the G's interior had been updated from the first gen's cheapo look, but, AT THAT TIME, I still felt the Audi interiors were ahead of the game. Today, you may well be correct.

Another way to look at this -- the 2009 A4 uses an A6 design first brought to the market in 2004 on the C6 when it first hit the market as the brand new generation of A6's. I have not spent any time, period, looking at 2010 A6's, so although I assume there have been some interior upgrades, I also assume they are not as significant as the replacement A6's will be when the C7 generation comes out.

Hope this clarifies. :shades:

P.S. I did conclude, too, with my own out loud doubts about the VALUE prop of the A4 (and, frankly, every other European car) when for less money you can get a new 300HP AWD sport lux optioned CTS (which does have a pretty nice interior treatment, too.) TODAY, based on the local paper here in Cincinnati, the CTS would be the "biggest bang for the buck," even after reading the fine print on the deals offered.

lexusguy · December 2009

and I do believe that the B8 still has a much nicer interior than the current 3 series (and 5 series even).

Mmmm.. I'm not sure on that one. I haven't spent any time in a new 3 or 5, but at least as far as appearance is concerned, I think the 2008+ 5 series looks significantly richer and more upscale than the B8 A4. I didn't like the initial '04 interior at all, but BMW made significant improvements as part of the '08 freshening, and I think the current 5 now gives the A6 a run for its money, and beats it in some areas. The 3's center stack is on the cheap side, though BMW is rather more liberal in doling out the wood trim than Audi is in the A4, which sort of makes up for it. Overall I'd probably give it to the B8 over the current 3, but its not a total knock out as with the B6 over the previous gen 3 series.

Audi improved the start button in the C6, and the gray trim piece that surrounds the instrument cluster and NAV screen was painted silver, but that's pretty much the end of it. Other than the rear lights and the new engine, the C6 really hasn't changed since '05.

BMW has stepped up their game that much further on the 2011 5, which has a look nearly identical to the X5 and 7 series. It embarrasses the new E class on the inside, and Audi is going to have their work cut out to beat it with the C7 A6. The 2011 M has by far the best interior Infiniti has ever done, so there's challenge from that too.

The new A8 and the A7 concept still have that old Audi "surprise and delight" interior magic, and I hope some of that makes its way into the C7.

The CTS just doesn't appeal to me. I've never liked the blocky "Art & Science" look, and while the interior does look nice at first glance, when you actually get up close it's a lot more Acura than Audi. I like it better than the C-class (I like pretty much everything better than the C-class), but IMO the G is the much better value champ.

markcincinnati · December 2009

An Infinit M almost became mine back in '05 -- and, for me, Infiniti still stands as the Japanese BMW. The way folks here are praising the new G37, I guess I'd better check one out before I succumb to the Art and Science's low price allure.

I did test the latest CTS -- and I have NOT tested a recent Acura, so your observation is probably right on. In any case, the CTS seems, today, to be a lot of car for the money.

Now, having said that, I thought the M I almost bought was also a lot of car for the money compared to the Audi (but then Audi gave me a super deal that leveled the playing field.)

I have been so loyal, so almost blind, I wonder if I am just stuck with the "nothing even comes close" to a German car mentality that it will take a lot of pulling to not re-up again. But, OWWW, $50K for an A4 2.0T, even with all the toys, it seems a lot.

As I recall, it is damn near impossible to get a G UP TO $45K -- although maybe that has changed, too.

This recession has just made me think more of bang for the buck -- as if "I've been spending too much on cars for too long, 'specially when I can get what SEEMS to be the same for less." Now, having said that, I simply ASSUME that all the accolades the CTS gets are pretty well deserved and, if that assumption is valid, well, why pay more unless you really do get more?

Then, I wake up and remind myself I still hold on to the notion that you generally get what you pay for.

Oh hell, maybe I'll just get a Jeep.

lexusguy · December 2009

As I recall, it is damn near impossible to get a G UP TO $45K -- although maybe that has changed, too.

The G37x is pretty much all out of ideas at $43K. That gets you tech, premium, sport, and NAV, including active cruise and headlights, sport seats, BT, the top level sound system, and all the rest. And from what I hear, Infiniti dealers are not exactly asking sticker for these.

backstreets1 · January 2010

I just got a new Blackberry 8530. Took my car to the dealership and was told Blackberry's are tricky with the MB bluetooth system. Can't transfer my contacts into the car. Anyone have a similar situation? Anything I can buy to help transfer contacts? thanks.

lynnminny · January 2010

You might try the website for Blackberry. In the past they have had updated software for some cars that are having difficulty pairing with the Blackberry.

lynnminny · January 2010

Try this link:

http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/

Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles