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Has Honda's run - run out?
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Comments
One of the top ten, reasonably priced cars I like is a Honda. It is just sold here as an Acura. The TSX is more like the honda of old to me.
It doesn't really have anything to do with the V6, it has to do with fat Americans. The 97 Accord had a V6 that was wider than the V6 in the 98-03s. The 2002 V6 is IDENTICAL in physical size to the 2003. If it weren't for the different intake manifold, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference visually between the 2002 and 2003 V6s.....and even if the 2003 Accord isn't actually THAT much bigger than the 2002, it LOOKS a lot bigger. The 2003 looks like a porker compared to the 2002.
"That said, Accord is still four inches shorter than Altima and may be 8-10 inches shorter than the Buicks you bring up often"
I keep bringing them up? I just said that I think the tail lights look a little Buick-y.
robert, you seem to have a habit of not reading posts, or at least not completely. Twice you have followed comments of mine with virtually the same observations. Maybe it's a timing thing.
Neither am I anti-honda. In fact, I am rather pro-honda if anything, based on their reign as the true Japanese motorsport innovator. But those who can't or won't allow themselves to see any deficiencies will doom not only the discussion, but eventually quite possibly the brand.
Read more, defend less.
IMO, what Honda has done, along with Toyota and Nissan, with their equivalent cars, is build a modern version of a 1978 or so Malibu. If you go back to that cars like the Accord, Altima, and Camry are really more like a Fairmont, Malibu, Century, Aspen/Volare, LeBaron/Diplomat, Granada, etc, than they are to any Accord or equivalent Datsun/Toyota of the time.
And FWIW, I don't think 4 inches, or even 8-10 inches really makes much difference when you're dealing with cars of this size. Back in, say, 1980, the typical compact/intermediate (the lines were really blurred around that time, as they tend to be today), ranged anywhere from around 192" on up to 205-206".
Nowadays, they're probably around 185-200", give or take.
It may be optical illusion in your case, and probably because of higher cowl/shoulder design with the new Accord. I wouldn’t call the new one porker though. Somebody mentioned the new Accord looks narrow up front (which contradicts your statement). I was going to point out (in response) that the new Accord’s front has an aggressive muscular stance, especially from the front.
I just said that I think the tail lights look a little Buick-y.
At least I know now where you’re calling it Buicky. Accord has used full width tail lamps in earlier designs. By the same measure that you use to call it Buickish, wouldn’t it be appropriate to call Mazda6’s taillamp “Cavalierish”? I hope you see my point.
This story existed, right here at Edmunds, almost seven years ago when 1998 Accord arrived. People thought the tail lamp looked Buicky. They couldn’t relate the design to an evolution of 1987 Prelude’s and jumped to conclusions.
A styling element that Honda has used occasionally is to mirror/gel the shape of the headlamp to the tail lamp. This was true in 1996-2000 Civic, 1997-2000 CL, 1990-1993 Accords, 2004 TSX (look from the side), and true even in 2003-2004 Accord! The sag is also detached a little near the license plate (something that was true in its own ways, in 1992-1993 Accord). That basic design, coupled to 1998-2002 “full-width” tail lamp results in the shape that current Accord sedan has (Accord Coupe got the rear end style from Acuras from the late 90s).
I have reservations against the overall shape of the tail lamp in the Accord, and the only issue I have got with the overall styling of the car, but that is far from being Buicky IMO.
wale_bate1
Neither am I anti-honda. In fact, I am rather pro-honda if anything, based on their reign as the true Japanese motorsport innovator.
Let us not work on apologies, and discuss cars, and messages that you and I post (like I did above).
Yeah, I have to pretty much agree with that. That's about what I'd see them as in reference to the past.
Anything bigger starts to put you into Grand Prix territory, IMO.
Of course, this is coming from a compact wagon driver after all, so grain of salt please!
:-)
Andre/Kev: Yup. Pretty much bang on, I'd say.
Mazda3 Sedan (Civic Sedan dimension in parentheses)
Length: 178.3 inch (175.4 inch)
Width: 69.1 inch (67.5 inch)
Height: 57.7 inch (56.7 inch)
Would you bash Honda if it decided to increase the dimensions of the Civic? Or is it just the right size now, and Mazda3 is too fat?
Comments?
Yeah, they do resemble the older Cavalier's tail lights, and I never thought that those cars were un-attractive. They also resemble the Millenia's (one of the best looking sedans ever made IMO) tail lights too.
"This story existed, right here at Edmunds, almost seven years ago when 1998 Accord arrived. People thought the tail lamp looked Buicky."
There are always going to be some people who don't like a redesign of a certain car, BUT, I think the 2003 Accord redesign is different. I equate the 2003 Accord redesign to the 1996 Taurus redesign.
Two inches make it too big, but 9 extra inches don’t? That’s kind of a bad excuse trying to set a baseline.
In terms of size, it is usually the length that shows up more than width (about 70 inch) or height (about 57 inch). Here is why I find your statement amusing. Length of the cars in descending order
183 inch (TSX)
187 inch (Mazda6)
189 inch (Accord sedan)
189 inch (Camry)
193 inch (Altima)
198 inch (Grand Prix sedan)
If anything, Mazda6 and Accord are about the same size, while TSX is considerably short, and the Grand Prix is almost a minivan. Having a perspective might help. Numbers do it better than anything else.
Corolla is closer a match, than Millenia (a car I think looks good). BTW, if you notice resemblance between Accord sedan's taillamp and Buick's (which model?), do you see the same between the Accord and Mazda 929? I do.
They don't look like a specific Buick, they just look Buick-y to me, but you don't agree, so I don't know how to expain it to you....and the Accord and 929? I don't see it.
That would be my opinion. Getting bigger than the 6, as I said, starts to put the car into another segement, IMO.
Numbers can't tell the whole story, either. Only engineers operate that way! The current Accord looks substantially bigger than those number indicate. Do you have the rest of the dimensions? Maybe it's the height. Maybe it's the sizing of the greehouse and the total styling direction. Whatever it is, it seems a more ungainly and bulkier package than the 6 to me.
Civic? I don't know from Civic sedans so no feeling whatsoever there. The 3 hatch is a knockout, IMO. The Si I'd prefer they leave alone, as I rather like that particular package.
Anyway, again, it's not really about Honda v. Mazda or Buick or anyone else in particular, it's only about opinions on Honda.
You seem to be taking this all very personally.
Since you ask, Accord sedan is just 2" longer, 1 inch wider, and has the same height as Mazda6. TSX is 4 inches shorter than Mazda6, same height and an inch narrower.
My baseline for just the right size is 190 inch or less. But I may be going with TSX the next time around. That car appeals to me more than anything under-30K at this time.
Back to Mazda3/Civic comparo, let us be straight and to the point... do you think it would be okay for Honda to increase the size, or would it make the car too large? Remember, we're discussing "size" so toss every thing else out for now.
BTW, you might want to keep this on topic, and refrain from making this a "personal" exchange. Afterall, we're discussing opinions, for or against, and that is kinda personal, yours and mine and everybody elses. Let us just discuss cars.
That's good advice, robert, I'm sure we'll both follow it.
Straight to the point, I don't have an opinion on Civic other than liking the look and specs of the Si and feeling lukewarm over the sedan and cool indeed toward the coupe. Matter of fact, of those, I'd say the one that appears to need the trim job would be the coupe.
I think it hurts Honda two ways. 1) it alienates past fans and also people like me, who are not necessarily "fans" but tended to buy the types of cars Honda used to make. And more importantly from a business stand point 2) I don't think Honda can out "bland-mobile" Toyota. I think push come to shove, the majority of the "I want an incredibly reliable boring box with wheels" will choose the Toyota name of Honda (at least in my observations of this crowd). Plus just more competition with similar products.
Looks are subjective, of course, I've grown to like the back end, and the low profile deckwing makes it look better proprtioned, but I don't think I would step up to this generation Accord, and I've had 6 of them!
A few things have made the Accord better than any previous though. When we got ours, our friends and relatives were complimenting on the size of the back seat, how roomy it was. Well, the 04 is like riding around in your living room, it's so much roomier. Also the dash layout is a bit classier and the stereo is better sounding as well. I think in the end, the looks will age pretty well, as the usually do. Heck, I bought a 98 when they first came out and shopped different dealers. 3 out of 4 of them stated very clearly there dislike for that generation (sedan) comparing it to a Sable or a Buick!!!
Though I respect Honda for sticking to it's principles and philosophies (mostly) a la Subaru, and refusing to offer RWD and V8 sedans in the near- to lux segment, have they shot themselves in the toe? I guess this is parallel to the truck discussion...
That's not an unfair assessment above, IMO, BTW.
Also, the Accord gets bigger, roomier, and more comfortable with every redesign, and Buicks traditionally were big, roomy, comfy cars. You can probably blame the Toyota Camry more than any other car for the Accord's ever-increasing size. When it came on the market for 1983, it was downright massive compared to the Accord. When the Accord went bigger for '86, the Camry trumped it again in '87. Then in '90 the Accord grew again, only to see the Camry go midsized for '92. The Accord's '94 restyle was a bit curious, as it really didn't seem to emerge any larger overall than the '90-93. IIRC, the '94-97 Accord did take a lot of flak at the time, although I'll admit I like 'em. Especially the '96-97 models, that had the slight grille change with the chrome border.
But anyway, the Camry grew again in '97, and the Accord followed for '98. And most recently, the Camry ballooned again for '02, and the Accord matched it for '03.
These things are firmly midsized cars now, too. According to www.fuelecnoomy.gov, here are the interior volumes, listed as passenger cabin/trunk capacity, in cubic feet...
2004 Honda Accord: 103/14
2004 Toyota Camry: 102/17
2004 Nissan Altima: 103/16
2004 Mazda6: 96/15
2004 Acura TSX: 91/13
Now, here's a rundown of a few midsize/fullsize cars of today:
2004 Ford Taurus: 104/17 (believe it or not, the EPA classifies this as full-sized!
2004 Chevy Impala: 105/18
2004 Dodge Intrepid: 104/18
2004 Chevy Malibu: 101/15
2004 Buick Century: 102/17
2004 Pontiac Grand Prix: 97/16
2004 Dodge Strtatus: 94/16
2004 Saturn L-series: 97/18
And, FWIW, back around 1980, the intermediate with the most interior volume would've been the Chevy Malibu, rated at 102/17. An Aspen/Volare/Diplomat/LeBaron would've been around 99/16, and a Fairmont/Zephyr around 97/16. The Granada/Monarch, in their final year in '80, would've probably been around 95/15, if that.
I don't like the styling of the new TL, but it is a really good car in its class and still a hell of a deal. The rest of the lineup doesn't do anything for me. MDX (ehhh, I'd rather have the Lexus RX330 in the classs), the RL is forgetable, the RSX for somereason just doesn't click with me (I really like the older Integras). Does Acura still sell the Trooper version, whatever it was called?
Acura is rebounding though in my opinion compared to even just a few years ago. Just sell the new RL replacement as a "Legend" replace the RSX with something sexier and call it an "Integra" and I think they can skate around the RWD issue with most people by going the AWD route.
Still would like to see Acura go up against the LS430 and S-Class, but that might be awhile off. Oh, and I think the Honda S2000 should have been sold as an Acura and the NSX put to sleep along time ago.
Really weird how Acura really fell of the game after owning the premium, Japanese import game.
~alpha
Sad to say, I believe GM themselves are to blame for Isuzu's demise. And off topic, I believe Saab as well.
Honda couldn't have managed to sell Accords at 400K units/year pace in America without increasing its size from 1994-97 levels. Thats a fact, regardless of whether some like it, or not.
Not really. It started with NSX (it arrived as "Acura" in 1990 as 1991 model). If we go far enough in history to Honda's first car... it followed an alphanumeric designation... S500, "S" for Sport and 500 for the engine displacement.
As for the Camry from '96-97, that's right, I'd forgotten that it didn't grow much, if at all. I just checked interior volumes, and both had 97 cubic feet of interior volume...the '97 actually lost a foot of trunk space, down from 15 to 14! They round these things off though, so it might've been less. For instance, one might've been 14.5 and one might've been 14.4!
Maybe that was one redesign that actually followed Honda's lead, as that Accord didn't seem to grow much from '93-94?
I'm not however looking forward to the possibility of ending up in the market, in two years, and being faced with giving up RWD to stay in a compact sport wagon. Not liking it at all. Making Audi look better every day. [sigh]
I think they should cave frankly. Give in and transfer the racing acumen to a RWD sport-lux sedan with the emphasis clearly on sport. Toyota doesn't have it but for compacts, and Infinti couldn't be that hard to smack around.
I know what you mean about the segment. Hell, they invented the [non-permissible content removed]-lux game here in the States. I bought one of the 1G Legend sedans. They were game on, even if it did look like "an Accord on steroids" (Car and Driver).
Call me square.
So - to shift gears slightly - does anyone think this roundness trend is going a bit far?
I'm one of those people that falls into the group that prefers the styling of the older model accords...my '94 accord to the 04s...I think the late-90s/early 00s looked good, probably better than my '94, but the 04s are rather rounded and not as visually pretty.
That said, I preferred the appearence of the '95 corolla i had to the present year corolla model. for example, what they did with the trunk lid doesn't appeal to me.
The Toyota Sienna...I think the back-end looks a tad bit like the ODY, so I like that 'cause its got angled lines, but I don't like the side profile, nor the front. I still think the ODY looks better.
And the new MPV looks better from the back, but the front?
The Nissans like the Murano and the Quest. Woa.
Roundness in a VW bug? Sure, but in the Audi and the Passats and the Jettas? I like the appearence of the '85 Jetta GLI I had over this rounded stuff.
OK, maybe I need a Ferrari...
Perhaps if Honda keeps the roundness in check, they will retain / grow market share.
I think Honda has hit a ceiling with their current business plan (FWD, I4 and V6 only). How many more Accords or Civic's can they sell given that both are already market leaders? The CR-V, Pilot and MDX are already doing well and the competition in this market segment is hot, so how much more profit can be squeezed out of this market segment? How much more decontenting can they do to generate more profits without losing ground to the Koreans and Mazda who are coming on strong?
Honda is completely absent in the performance and truck markets and that is a big mistake, especially with respect to the performance market. BMW is selling Civics with a straight 6 and 50-50 weight balance for nearly $40k fully optioned out. Why doesn't Honda just make some RWD platforms, shove in a straight 6, and eat BMW's lunch?
I'm curious to see how the SH-AWD does, but I haven't seen anything yet to convince me that it's going to offer the one huge advantage of a RWD car, and that is 50-50 weight balance. Also, AWD and performance just don't go together IMO. The extra drivetrain often adds 400 pounds and that is a serious detractor of performance.
I am not against FWD. In fact, most cars I've owned have been FWD and when I lived in the Northeast, I would not buy a RWD car because they suck in snow unless you go through the hassle of snow tires. But now that I'm in So Cal, I don't have to worry about that and I'm looking for a RWD offering from Honda and it ain't there.
With all their racing experience, you'd think RWD sport an absolute no-brainer. I mean the TL is wonderful as is, but imagine it with a small-block V8 around four liters and RWD. Better yet, don't. Don't want drool-shorted keyboards out there.
I'm not sure I can say they'd be able to out BMW BMW without breathing hard. And if they did, my take is they would have to price right around the same points. But certainly they should be able to get very, very close.
Honda is hardly in the dire straights that BMW seems to be facing.
Here's to the next 3 series...
~alpha
Yowza that would be fun for me. Modern day Jag Mk II and E-type. Drool..............
I give them credit for doing what they do well, rather than trying to do everything (Like GM) and doing it poorly. But there are some cracks, it appears, in the execution.
newcar31: The Focus that I tested did not have the PZEV engine. The engine had just been released on a nationwide basis, and the dealer did not have any in stock.
2) Hyundai has been recommended, in 2002, for Sonata and Santa Fe.(comment made about long term) 1995-present Sonatas ARE recommended by CR, as are all 4 years of Santa fe models. I posted the news on autoweek.com, and other sites, yet people refused to read it, and ignored it,so ya wanna read it, go there.
Buy what you like, because I do.
PS< Honda Element is making saels to the older gorup, btu they lost a sale to my father-in-law. He tried 3 times in 6 months to get them to knock off a grand or so, and they said"MSRP", and he said'Used Jeep Laredo", and left the lot. He said he may wait to repalce his S-10 next year for the American Made Sante Fe. He knows they'll knock a few grand off msrp, as long as you argue.
DAV
1983-1994
USNR-USCG
AWD and performance dont go together? WHAT? Let me drop some names on you. 911 Turbo. Lancer Evolution. WRX STi. Skyline GT-R. Audi RS4. Audi RS6. What do all those cars have in common? They can all hit 60mph in 5 seconds or less. They handle like their on rails. And oh yeah, they're all AWD. The 450hp Euro spec bi-turbo RS4 would absolutely mop the floor with our M3.
Honda has realized this “shift” in sales, and is in the process of moving production of some Accords to East Liberty (Ohio) from Marysville (Ohio) to make room for production of more TLs. Production of 2004 Accords may have been reduced for that reason, and that the 2005 models will be out soon. Production Capacity and Inventory Turnaround would be better indicators of “slip”, if any.
That said, matching and beating all time record sales every year, and suddenly not doing it, isn’t an indication of failure especially if there is little incentive to go with it, and the car changes a little. And, Honda’s net sales and net income rose last year (I have posted the numbers earlier). It was the operating income that went down, and Honda blames Yen-Dollar exchange rate for that.
and
"That said, matching and beating all time record sales every year, and suddenly not doing it, isn’t an indication of failure especially if there is little incentive to go with it, and the car changes a little. And, Honda’s net sales and net income rose last year (I have posted the numbers earlier)."
Excellent points, and I couldnt agree more. Id rather see sales off by 9% while maintaining high margins on those sales than see sales increase by 9% and lose margin due to rebates, financing, extended warranties, etc.... which have snowball effects on resale, perception etc. Toyota has me concerned with this situation in relation to the Camry, but has smartly introduced a Camry "Standard" model to mitigate said effects and the 2005 refresh will significantly improve the car as well.
Sales arent everything.
~alpha
Having drive a 330i and 330xi, I can assure you the 330i is a much more fun car to drive.
Also, now that I live in sunny CA, I don't need AWD and I'd prefer to lose the weight of the extra AWD drivetrain and (1) get better performance, (2) save gas money and (3) lower the risk of repairs due to increased complexity of AWD drivetrain.
Can an AWD be made sporty? Yes, but is the equivalet RWD version of that AWD car even more sporty? Hell yeah. That is why in the sport/performance market it is not FWD or AWD, but RWD which rules.