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Has Honda's run - run out?

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Rumor has it that the Civic Type-R will get a 2.4-liter with 250 HP. Current CTR gets 2.0 with 197 HP (in Europe) or 215 HP (in Japan).

     

    Now, interesting could be the impact on steering/handling with as much power on a (relatively speaking) light weight car. But, does this picture also depict potential of Europe getting 5-door CTR this time around?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Actually, it does. Buy a GTP, get a free supercharger. ;)

     

    And rebates on top of it. ;-)

     

    But I guess, you got the point, so I will leave this at that.

     

    A comptech superchargers costs a couple thousand dollars. A pulley, chip, and exhaust doesn't.

     

    Included in the cost of GTP to start with. Sure, factory installed SC would cost less, but that would be true in any case. Point is, SC isn't cheap.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    Agree about the looks! If the EVO or WRX STi had that look I'd own 1 now.

    Hopefully Honda doesn't price that near $30K w/o adding AWD.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,930
    I like that Civic. Take the goofy cladding and the oversized wheels, and it looks like a neat package.

     

    Of course, the US will probably only get a 4 door and 2 door coupe, and If I get another small car, it will be a hatch or wagon for the utility factor.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    That looks like the new CTR. It is rumored to have 18 inch rims, and the rear glass mounted spoiler is likely to stay as well (in CTR).
  • avs007avs007 Posts: 97
    Depends on perspective. Superchargers actually are viewed as cheap. That's why Ford opted to drop the 32 valve DOHC V8, in place of the Supercharged SOHC V8. Made more power, and was cheaper.

     

    I think the previous posters comment on tunability, was talking about from a cost point of view.

     

    I can throw a Supercharger or Twin Turbo into my G35, but if I want to be able to get low 12's with it, I'd need to swap out a bunch of internals. The GTP's motor already has beefed up internals from the factory.

     

    And FWIW, 369HP is nothing to brag about. There are many Grand Prix's that have exceeded 400hp a long time ago.

     

    And the comment about GM needing some extra cogs not being available, and Honda choosing not to supercharge, actually is a valid comment. GM is introducing a 6 speed automatic. But even GM is deciding not to use forced induction anymore. The upcoming Grand Prix GXP loses the supercharged 3800 V6, and gains a 5.3 litre all-aluminum V8, which GM claims actually weighs less than the outgoing V6.

     

    And yes, I did throw the GTP comparison in there, because I was throwing a monkey wrench into said arguments. However, when I said we didn't need to talk about blown 3800 being equivalent to 4.x litre engine, I said that because we would not only be beating a dead horse, we would be talking in circles, as that's how this whole gearing discussion started, when we refuted the comparison to 4.x litre engines, by mentioning the VQ35 and LS1/2 engines...
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "I think the previous posters comment on tunability, was talking about from a cost point of view."

     

    I was. It is easier, and cheaper to get big numbers from an S/C 3.8L than it is from the TL's 3.2L. Hands down.

     

    My Grandma could install an exhaust and pulley on an S/C 3.8L and pay for it with her social security check.

     

    That just ain't happenin' with a comptech supercharger on a TL.
  • I think the next gen Mitsu EVO has a similar nose design which is supposedly going to become the corporate nose across the Mitsu lineup. It too looks real sharp, and has functionality of 4 doors.

     

    I'll be absolutely stoked if this is the next Civic Type-R, and I'll be even happier if we (the states) get one this time around. It'll be interesting to see what Acura does with the RSX if that happens.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    Do keep in mind that they're only talking about the 2.4L in the type R, and that the arrival of the type R to the US would be a big change in Honda strategy.

    I have my doubts that they would let a Civic match the TSX.

     

    It's interesting to see that Honda's reversing its trend towards making its headlights bigger. Does this mean the Accord will follow suit?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    avs007:

    Depends on perspective. Superchargers actually are viewed as cheap. That's why Ford opted to drop the 32 valve DOHC V8, in place of the Supercharged SOHC V8. Made more power, and was cheaper.

     

    I couldn’t speak for Ford, but apparently you can. Comparing engine costs based on layouts is not as simple as you are trying to make it. Commonality along the lineup will often dictate the cost. Ford may be trying to differentiate its premium offerings from base cars by taking the route that you say was to get more power and cost effective. What does Ford GT use?

     

    The GTP's motor already has beefed up internals from the factory.

     

    Remember to get a new transmission. Isn’t that a reason often quoted regarding deliberately reduced power output from the SC/3.8? You can’t have it both ways.

      

    And FWIW, 369HP is nothing to brag about. There are many Grand Prix's that have exceeded 400hp a long time ago.

     

    It wasn’t about bragging, it was about effectiveness and acceptance to forced induction. A 4.5 psi system could add 109 HP to the top end in the 3.2/V6. For bragging, I could have used several of Civic examples that can boast way more than 400 HP from measely 1.8-liter displacement.

     

    The upcoming Grand Prix GXP loses the supercharged 3800 V6, and gains a 5.3 litre all-aluminum V8, which GM claims actually weighs less than the outgoing V6.

     

    Probably costs less too! No more cost of adding and tuning an engine with a supercharger.

     

    newcar31:

    You get what you pay for, at least in this case. With this, I’m putting this discussion on TL versus GTP to rest.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    I too would be very surprised to see them bring the CTR to the U.S. But if it truly will have the 2.4, it gives me more hope that we will see a 200 hp SI for the next gen.

     

    As for the RSX, consider that non-premium compacts have rapidly caught up to it in terms of content and handling. I think it could get away with a 200 hp base model, even if other markets get a Civic with more power. Because the thing is, they could work on the handling a lot and improve content to the point where Integra is not the "forgotten stepsister" of the Acura line. With a commensurate increase in price, of course. Even since its intro, people have called for the RSX to have little niceties that were entirely absent, such as heated seats and NAV, and which are common or even standard throughout the rest of the line.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If Civic gets 2.4 in Europe, RSX may get 2.4-liter engine here. And that could mean 200-210 HP for the base model, and 240 HP for the Type-S (slightly detuned version of the rumored 250 HP power plant in the next CTR). TSX could get 240 HP too!

     

    I doubt we will get CTR, but next Civic Si/Si-R may close the gap. It is expected to get 200-210 HP itself.

     

    It's interesting to see that Honda's reversing its trend towards making its headlights bigger. Does this mean the Accord will follow suit?

     

    Slim line headlamps were Accord signature since 1990, and in fact, I still see it in the current Accord from this angle. However, the size of the lens grew to include eye-brow/lid style turn indicators matching in overall shape Honda adopted with 1996 Civic.

     

    However, with MMC refresh, Civic now has more 1998-02 Accord/1997-2000 CL like head lamp lens. I wouldn’t be surprised next Accord would too.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "For bragging, I could have used several of Civic examples that can boast way more than 400 HP from measely 1.8-liter displacement."

     

    Lol. Don't forget a measly beefed up block (hondas have floating cylinder sleeves and they do not like 400 hp), new crank, new connecting rods, and new pistons, among other things. Basically, it's not even the same 1.8L that you started out with.

     

    "You get what you pay for, at least in this case."

     

    As far as power is concerned, no, you DON'T always get what you pay for.

     

    There is such a thing as cheap power, and expensive power.

     

    Adding lots of power to the 3.8L S/C is cheap. Adding lots of power to the TL's 3.2L is expensive. Period. It's not debatable.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think this debate is pointless, because I doubt many TL shoppers are seriously looking at a GTP. Resale alone would turn most Acura intenders away.

     

    -juice
  • avs007avs007 Posts: 97
    I couldn’t speak for Ford, but apparently you can. Comparing engine costs based on layouts is not as simple as you are trying to make it. Commonality along the lineup will often dictate the cost. Ford may be trying to differentiate its premium offerings from base cars by taking the route that you say was to get more power and cost effective.

     

    I'm not speaking for ford. I'm just re-stating what Ford has said about the SVT Cobra. At least that's what I remember all the interviews to have said.

     

    Remember to get a new transmission. Isn’t that a reason often quoted regarding deliberately reduced power output from the SC/3.8? You can’t have it both ways.

     

    What are you talking about? We are talking stock to stock here, so yes, we are talking about the de-tuned 3800. But that aside, the 3800 is not grenading trannies like the TL is. The weak-spot in the 4T65-E is known. It's the spider gear in the differential. A LSD will fix that problem, and one is available from Quaiffe. The TL's tranny problem is more of a design defect, but we're not arguing about transmissions here.

     

    And yes, the new 5.3 litre V8 probably does cost less, but not becuaes it doesn't have a blower. GM has stated a long time ago, that it is streamlining it's entire engine lineup to reduce cost.

     

    So GM got rid of a bunch of engines, and now has basically:

     

    Two V8 Familes: NorthStar & LS

    Two V6 Familes: Global (2.8/3.6 VVT), 3500/3900

    Ecotech Family: 2.0, 2.2

     

    The 3800 was sort of sitting all by itself.

     

    And not that I care, but the Comptech Supercharger alone will not give you 369hp. That Comptech CL-S, also has Comptech headers, downpipe, exhaust, intake, light-weight flywheel, clutch, high-pressure fuel pump, fuel-pressure regulator, and ECU. That's a lot of money to make 369 ponies.

     

    And pointing to a 4.5psi boost pressure is misleading too. The J32 has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Most factory blown engines have a reduced compression ratio, such as 8.5:1.

     

    But getting back on topic... I for one would love to see a Civic Type-R here. We can't let the SRT-4/Cobalt-SS/etc have the market all to themselves :p

     

    I would also like to see a TSX with a J30 240hp V6 (to keep it from stepping on the J32/TL toes) I think Infiniti and Lexus were on to something by not offering 4 cylinder models in this market.
  • avs007avs007 Posts: 97
    I think this debate is pointless, because I doubt many TL shoppers are seriously looking at a GTP. Resale alone would turn most Acura intenders away.

     

    You never know what may be cross-shopped.

     

    When I bought the G35, I cross shopped the TL with the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP CompG, Pontiac GTO, Infiniti G35 Coupe, and Cadillac CTS 3.6.

     

    Resale alone will not always close the deal. I know many people that swear they will never buy Acura again, becuase of the whole tranny fiasco. I know others that didn't buy the TL, because the seats weren't as supportive as Infiniti's seats. I also know people that loved the Acura Navigation, but had to have GM's Heads-Up-Display linked navigation, etc....

     

    Different strokes for different folks...
  • A TSX with a V6 would be very attractive. I do believe however, that even with the 2.4l the TSX has beaten it's projected sales target by a large margin. I think this is a big reason for the decline in Accord sales.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Last time I checked, Acura isn’t struggling, and is growing well in fact. So, if there are fewer repeat buyers now, it would only mean that Acura is getting buyers from somewhere else!

     

    Going back to CTR, I doubt it will happen here. There isn’t a market for it. All that Honda needs is a well designed/marketed Civic Si/Si-R to keep the ball rolling.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    2002+ CR-V and 2004+ TSX may have both hurt Accord sales in recent years, another reason suggesting overall growth makes more sense than growth of individual models.

     

    As far as TSX is concerned, going hybrid may not be a bad idea. Especially if the power train happens to be the production version of the same showcased with Acura RDX prototype at 2002 NAIAS (250 HP/AWD). There is enough room for TSX to grow before it hits the base price on TL ($34K).

     

    Another interesting addition would be TL w/SH-AWD, something that is now dubbed a strong possibility.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    I don't get this 3.8L supercharged vs 3.2L n-a engine argument (I'd try harder if you guys found dyno charts over the full rev range though =] ).

     

    They're different applications. Lots of manufacturers supercharge V6's to emulate V8's, and expect other cars' V8's to be the direct competitors. You can say something about Honda not offering a V8, but for the time being Honda and people looking for V8 behavior are just not meant to be together. (In any case, while I do see Honda eventually making a V8 I don't think it'd go in the TL.)

     

    It doesn't say much about engineering prowess, either. The 3.8L has almost 20% more displacement - that alone should give it more torque.

     

    The underlying question is back to what Honda likes vs. what hypothetical customers like. Is it worth keeping a company's character at the cost of some possible growth? Would Honda suffer in the long run if it sold out? How important is an enthusiast base to a company?
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "Would Honda suffer in the long run if it sold out?"

     

    Sold out? How would Honda "sell out"? Some would say that Honda "sold out" by offering a V6 in the historically 4 cyl only Accord. Obviously, Honda didn't think of people who wanted a midsize V6 family sedan as "hypothetical customers". If selling out means competing with competitors, then Honda can't afford not to sell out.

     

    "How important is an enthusiast base to a company?"

     

    Important enough for a 270 hp TL. Important enough for a 240 hp Accord. Important enough for "Type-R" versions of vehicles. Important enough for the existance of the NSX. Honda has been selling out for quite a while now.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    "Is it worth keeping a company's character at the cost of some possible growth?"

     

    I like the technical complexity of Honda's engine design, which guarantees smooth high-revving engines using no forced induction. To me, an S/C is a quick and dirty fix to a power deficiency, which has its time and place of course. Toyota has used them occasionally over the years to boost power in models that became underpowered in their segments more quickly than Toyota intended, like the 90s Previas and early 90s MR2s.

     

    But "engine companies" like BMW, Honda, and Porsche rarely if ever use forced induction, and I think that is the way they should stay. Even if it does mean that Honda loses itself a few potential customers by doing so.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "like BMW, Honda, and Porsche rarely if ever use forced induction"

     

    BMW and Honda, yes. Porsche, no. Porsche has a history of using forced induction.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    in street models or racing cars?

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • Don't forget BMW's Turbo'd 2002. Gas crisis kind of did it in, but it was a production model.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    "If selling out means competing with competitors, then Honda can't afford not to sell out."

     

    Honda's growing despite not having a V8, and its V6's continue to like revs. But yeah, obviously at some point they're hurting themselves too much and I expect a V8 sooner or later. But it won't be a 6L pushrod.

     

    But say Honda went totally mainstream, gave all of its engines class-leading torque and a 5000rpm redline, and standard automatic transmissions across the line. Would those of us who complain have any bearing on Honda's finances? What's the reason not to go down that path?
  • avs007avs007 Posts: 97
    If anything, I think Acura needs a V8. If anything, only to compete with Lexus and Infiniti, (and the germans), with regards to prestige for the luxury market. A V8 is almost ante for the table.

     

    And you can have a high torque engine, with a high redline. Saying that a high torque engine has a 5000RPM redline is a bit much image Just look at the BMW V10, and the upcoming Z06 LS4 engine. (I think that's the designation anyways). Both have redlines north of 7000rpm... (And the latter is a pushrod image)
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    The 2002 Turbo never was to be sold in the U.S. So technically Bimmer has never sold a gas turbo in the U.S. Just like Honda.

    http://www.bmwworld.com/models/newclass/2002tii.htm

    That's almost as old as the antiquated 3.8.

     

    Porche uses Turbos in the 911 and Cayenne.

     

    Ferrari nor Lambo uses them. Nor did Mclaren in the F1.

     

    Benz has gone Turbo crazy though.

     

    Honda used them in the non-U.S. City Turbo. But never shipped any Turbos here.

     

    http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html

    Been around for a loooooong time.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    Sorry, I meant high torque and low power. Above 5250rpm, you generally get more horsepower than ft-lbs of torque. But I think you know what I meant. The kind of drivers that make up the bulk of sales never go above 4000rpm, and an engine set up to sacrifice the high end completely for their benefit might be a good sales strategy.

     

    I'm just hoping there's some reason for Honda to remain as it is.
This discussion has been closed.