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Has Honda's run - run out?

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The hybrids are getting about 44-46mpg in the real world, according to mileage charts I've seen.

    Realistically, a Fit or Yaris could come very close, maybe 36-38mpg or so overall.

    A difference of 8 mpg sounds like a lot, but it's not. If you go from a 10mpg Suburban to an 18mpg Pilot, it's a huge jump, but at already high MPGs you get diminishing returns.

    Some math, for this example. Say you drive 12000 miles in a year, and that gas costs $2.30.

    At 10mpg, you were using 1200 gallons in your 'burban and it cost you $2760. The improvement of +8mpg means you would use 667 gallons and spend $1533 on gas for the Pilot. Great, you just saved $1227, a savings worth investing in as long as the Pilot still met your needs.

    Now, at 36mpg on a Yaris/Fit (assuming it also meets your needs), you use 333 gallons, and it costs you $767. A jump on +8mpg by getting a Civic/Prius hybrid instead means you would use 273 gallons, which would cost just $627.

    Whoppee. You only save $140 per year. About 1/10 of what the guzzler's savings would be.

    Given the hybrid would cost about $10,000 more to acquire, the difference in interest payments alone is way, way more than what you'd save on fuel.

    Some more quick math - the $10,000 loan for 5 years at 5.9% means you'll pay $542.60 in interest in the very first year alone.

    So, paying $542.60 in interest makes saving a measly $140 not worth it. Incredibly, this example completely ignores the $10,000 extra in principle!

    Trade-in the gas guzzler, sure, but pass on the hybrid if you think a Yaris will meet your needs just as well.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    In Japan, several years back, Honda ran a promotion where buyers could get a free radio upgrade or free side airbags. They were surprised (appalled?) when most of the buyers chose the radio.

    Personally, I think it's good they didn't learn any lessons from that. Safety first! ;)
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    from most of what I have read, people seem to be averaging about 42 mpg in the Civic Hybrid, and about 45 in the Prius. When I drove the Prius for a week, since my driving mix is highway-heavy, I only managed about 44 in the Prius myself.

    In regular gas cars, I can always get close to the highway figure in my routine driving, so I would expect to get 38 mpg, maybe 39, in a Yaris. Compare this to 42 in an HCH or 44-45 in a Prius, and really what would I be gaining? A ton of automated this-and-that that I don't even want? Give me wind-down windows and push-button locks.

    But I do want the A/C and CD, and I agree with the above poster that these should be minimum content these days, especially in a Honda, which is supposed to be a cut above. After all, at the $13K price point that I expect the Fit to start at, the Koreans and Americans are making A/C standard.

    Of course, I also agree that people should not have to pick between safety and basic equipment. ABS and side airbags should be a minimum these days, and indeed they are at Hyundai, yet somehow Toyota can't manage this in the Yaris, Corolla, or $20K all-new RAV4?

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    First the good news:

    -The new Civic seems to be selling well.

    -The Oddy Mini-van and Pilot are solid sellers as well.

    -A new CR-v as said in past posts should be out by sept 07 I would think so that should generate alot showroom traffic later in the year.

    -Honda offers one of the lowest if not the lowest
    increntives numbers $$$ wise in the industry.

    -The Acura TL and TSX have sold well.

    The bad news:

    The Ridgeline and Acura RL have had lukewarm sales.

    Accord sales down 31% last month and that worries me big time. To go further into it Honda sold 38K Accords in December 2004 where as they only sold 26K Accords in December 2005. Honda should push the new Accord's release date up. As mentioned before a new Camry will come out in a couple months but also a new Altima will probably come out before a next generation Accord does.

    -Acura MDX is getting long in the tooth.

    On a side note I think Honda may grow a little in the first 3 quarters of 2006 and I would look for sales to go up more steadily later in the year with the CR-V coming out. My only concern competition wise for Honda sales would be Toyota, Hyundai, and the Mazda 3 maybe taking some Civic byers away. I don't see Nissan or Chrysler really putting any dent into Honda sales. Chrysler doesn't have a good selling mid-size car yet and Nissan sales have taken a hit of late with the declining sales in the SUV market. I have no clue when a new Sentra will be out. Meanwhile, Ford is in sort of a rebuilding mode and GM are they really a factor anymore?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "The Ridgeline and Acura RL have had lukewarm sales."

    I think "lukewarm" might be too kind for the RL.

    The Ridgeline is doing fine, though. It's on track to make their sales goal. It will likely exceed it, if only slightly. The fact that the Ridge requires special deals and incentives is unusual for a Honda, but it is not at all unusual for a truck.

    Honda also has the Fit coming this year. Offering a low cost vehicle should help fend off Hyundai. And Acura is getting the RDX by summer.

    I agree with you on the Accord. I think the days of dominating the competition are over. Everyone is trying to build an Accord competitor. No one is trying to chase the Camry.

    But I think this will be more or less a building year for Honda. They'll hold their position in the market and start pushing again next year. At that time they'll have a new CR-V, MDX, the new Accord will arrive late in the year, and they'll probably introduce a new model.
  • The Accord seems to get uglier with each new redesign. I wish they'd stop goofing around with the tail-lights and settle on a uniquely Honda "look" and not resort to Ford Taurus-like design cues.

    I guess this could be a part of Honda's master plan...with the Accord looking homely (intended for middle-aged women), it may make up selling TSXs easier.
  • Agreed. I looked at the 2006 Accord V6 4dr and on paper it was great, but when looking at and, sitting in it/looking at the interior and driving it, I went with the 2006 TL. I felt the 2006 Accord exterior styling to be so bland and poorly proportioned that I would never truly enjoy the purchase and always have some misgivings. Interior styling was also mediocre. TL has been great except for a few rattles, great performance, excellent styling, fit and finish still not as good as the Germans (my 2003 VW Passat had better fit and finish, as well as paint and detailing in the build.)
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "I agree with you on the Accord. I think the days of dominating the competition are over. Everyone is trying to build an Accord competitor. No one is trying to chase the Camry. "

    I don't think the days of the Accord being dominant are over but the styling of the current generation Accord just is very boring and it doesn't look right. I know the Accord has always been bashed for bland styling but the 03 is just so bland the styling is just very undescript. The new back end just doesn't help the styling enough.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "The Accord seems to get uglier with each new redesign. I wish they'd stop goofing around with the tail-lights and settle on a uniquely Honda "look" and not resort to Ford Taurus-like design cues."

    I don't think the Accord gets uglier with each redesign. I mean for me the 1994-1997 Accord was probably the cloeset Honda came to taking a chance on the styling with the Accord. The late 80's Accord Coupe was also very good looking. They had no choice with the 98 Accord but to style like it like they did because they had to compete with the Camry in terms of interior room thus exterior styling suffered for the 6th generation Accord. Toyota really outsmarted Honda with the 92 Camry thus Honda was forced to make the 98 Accord bigger to compete with the Camry. The 98 Accord was bland but it still looks good. The 03+ Accord I can't say the same about. Keep in mind I am 26 years old.

    "I guess this could be a part of Honda's master plan...with the Accord looking homely (intended for middle-aged women), it may make up selling TSXs easier."

    No, I don't think that was Honda's plan just to sell the Accord to middle aged women. I think with the 03 Accord they were trying to go for GM and Ford buyers and I think thats why the styling on the 03 Accord didn't come out right. They were trying to keep the core Honda buyer but at the same time win some Domestic 3 Buyers over which backfired big time. THE TSX was brought into the line-up to compete with the Mazda 6 and Subie Legacy which are smaller cars than the Accord.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    I admit the Accord's new styling has hurt its sales. But for a sedan that doesn't depend on incentives and fleet sales, its selling quite well.

    Toyota and Honda both have different goals. Toyota wanted to keep its role as a best seller. By doing that, they had to sell their Camry's in fleets and offer incentives. That hurt it's resale value. Honda on the other hand wanted to keep its high resale value. By doing that, they had to sell very little in fleets and offer few incentives. That effected the Accords sales.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "Toyota and Honda both have different goals. Toyota wanted to keep its role as a best seller. By doing that, they had to sell their Camry's in fleets and offer incentives. That hurt it's resale value."

    Yeah I know Toyota at least in Central NJ had a 1500 dollar factory rebate on the Camry for 03 and 04 model years I think. In my opinion Camry's resale is still good though. Consumer Reports recently dropped The Camry's resale value from above average to average though.

    "Honda on the other hand wanted to keep its high resale value. By doing that, they had to sell very little in fleets and offer few incentives. That effected the Accords sales."

    Yeah I know one of the Accord's strenghs has been its resale value over the years but with a new Camry coming out soon and sales of the Accord dropping 31% last month can Honda stilll keep Accord sales from dropping significantly this 2006 sales year? I think this year is going to be tough too keep Accord sales stable from year 2005 sales in which they sold 369,000 Accord's. Its going to be tough on Honda to not only to keep Accord sales stable for this year but also next year as well since a new Accord won't probably be coming out until late 2007.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    pwnd!

    I thought the Ridgeline was obvious, since it'll affect truck design for quite some time.

    I'm a little surprised by the car result. I guess the Solstice is a huge leap for GM, but it follows a very traditional formula. The Civic's taken packaging to a new extreme, and its interior is pretty bold too. (Whether it works or not is another matter, but it's beside the point.)
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    My beef with the Solstice twins is the "piece parts" design of it. The rear end is CTS, which isn't a bad idea, the dash and motor are Cobalt SS, not a bad choice either, but the gearbox is from a Colorado Pickup! :surprise: Only 5-speeds as well... I guess it helped to keep the costs and price of entry down, but it still doesn't exude 100% effort on GM's part...

    Thing about the Civic is the WHOLE lineup that is involved, and the substantial sales and reputation that this nameplate has. it is a significant model to the Honda portfolio. Meanwhile the GM roadsters are a new entry in to the sement, but for 20k sales, it is peanuts for sales figures...
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,909
    Honda considering a 6th North American plant

    More evidence of the ever increasing Asian automakers presence in North America. Honda is now studying the need as to whether build a sixth North American assembly plant, or enlarge an existing to meet the demand for their products.

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8e51a/0

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    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Business Week

    Honda already has hybrid versions of the Civic and Accord on the road, and it will unleash gas-electric versions of the Pilot and Ridgeline by 2008.

    This is news to me. I haven't seen anything from a Honda source about plans to introduce a hybrid truck in 2008. Am I missing something? Dunno where this guy got it from.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    That one does not surprise me. The Ohio plants are now responsible for half a dozen models on at least three different platforms. December sales of their sedans were constrained because of lack of product.

    I would have thought they'd add another line at the Ody/Pilot plant down in Alabama. Not sure if this rumor means a whole new facility or a new line at an existing site.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    that must be new from the car show......????
  • AG11AG11 Posts: 31
    I agree Honda's golden years were probably 1994-2000 when the generation X crowd was buying Honda's like crazy

    Hey, another GenXer here. I loved the Honda back in early 90's. Those were the best looking Accords/Civics/Legends. I had a used Integra in college, man I loved that car! :D

    Somewhere in the late 90's, Hondas started to look frumpy, and I started trying other makes.

    This ex-Honda guy is now a happy VW/Audi customer. Well, I bought an Odyssey for my wife, so maybe I never left. ;)
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    They retracted it!

    I was just looking for the statement about the Pilot hybrid and it's no longer in that article. They changed the sentence to say something about moving hybrids into the Acura line-up.
  • Funny, as a Gen Xer, I went the other way. Used to own VW/Audi products as well as Saab, enjoyed the unique design, good performance, good safety, I think those cars have lost some of their edge (except the Audi in terms of exterior/interior design), especially the new Passat, and Saab is becoming more and more irrevelant (9-5 is aging, going on 7 years or so without major upgrade, 9-3 is ok but nothing special, 9-2x was a joke of a rebadged Subaru, and 9-7x is a major joke as a rebadged GM SUV). Reliability has always been an issue with the above makes, even though I generally consider build quality and fit and finish of recent products to be very good (i.e. paint, gaps, joints between materials, etc...)

    I went to my first Honda product with a new Acura TL, design inside and out is very good, although not cutting edge, but very clean, good performance, excellent reliability, a cut below the Germans and Swedes in build quality and fit and finish (was surprised that Acuras paint is just ok and alignment of panels is just ok.) But I find the Acura to be the car which probably does not excel at any one thing but is very very good at everything, which suits my desire to have a car that suits my needs with exceptional reliability, something I do not trust VW/Audi or Saab to do (at least on the reliability and quality/competency of service area.)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Somewhere in the late 90's, Hondas started to look frumpy, and I started trying other makes. This ex-Honda guy is now a happy VW/Audi customer.

    That's interesting, I didn't buy any Hondas in the 1990's because they either didn't impress me with their looks, performance, or both. To be fair, the only cars we bought in the decade were a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed and an Isuzu Trooper (big mistake). So other than a 1995 Accord or 1996 Passport, Honda didn't get any other chances to snag me. (The Legend GS 6-speed was out of my price range).

    However,of the several other people I know that now have 2004-2006 TL's, at least three or four of them came from the Audi camp. A common cross shopping line-up among them seems to be the A6, 530i, TL and RL. And even though the TL is the least expensive, it appears to hold its own reasonably well against the others. The fact that Acura went beyond sporty design and fitted the 2004 TL with a 6-speed and gave it much better handling than the previous generation kept me from going the BMW route.

    Obviously, tastes and styling are highly personal. Had I bought my wife a "frumpy" Odyssey, she would have divorced me. ;) Her only gripe with her MDX is that it doesn't have a 6-speed manual like the TL. :(
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    MDX would be an interesting vehicle with a stick. I am very disappointed to find the upcoming RDX is also lacking a manual as well. We are a very limited breed I suspect :(
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Mrs. Varmint was fine with a stick for years. We had several. But recently she began driving more often in traffic. Too bad because a TSX would be a perfect car for her. Just can't talk her out of the automatic!
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    My wife had a few herself (Prelude, Nissan Sentra). Her last couple of cars have been Auto though as she grew tired of 3 pedals. She does on occasion drive the S2k, but has no intentions of having a manual as a daily driver.

    I might have convinced her on the 6 speeder for the TL which she oh so wants if she didn't need all the utility of the MDX. A slushbox for the TL is just so wrong...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I expected Ridgeline (when I found out the RAV4 didn't even make finalist!), but I also expected the Solistice. Not so much on merit, more so on its significance to GM.

    VW/Audi: it's funny, you get one extreme or the other. Enthusiasts who swear by them, and folks that were burned and you couldn't give one to.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Was the RAV4 even eligible? I would have thought that it needed to be on sale by a certain date.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,688
    I agree. I bet it will be a contender for the 2007 NACOTY, but not this year.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I thought I saw it on the list of nominees...don't recall the article, though.

    -juice
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "Hey, another GenXer here. I loved the Honda back in early 90's. Those were the best looking Accords/Civics/Legends. I had a used Integra in college, man I loved that car!"

    The 96-97 Accord was sweet looking back in the day. That was the particular generation of Accord that got me hooked to Honda at a very young age when I was in High School. Honda won my interest back then. As a matter of fact for my first car I wanted a late 80's Accord too. I didn't get it then though.

    "Somewhere in the late 90's, Hondas started to look frumpy, and I started trying other makes."

    I don't have a problem with the late 90's Honda's. The 03 Accord just totally was just totally just didn't look like the Honda I grew up with from the mid to late 90's period. Honda has showed me alot from coming back from the 03 Accord styling dud in the last few years in regards to exterior design with new Civic Coupe and 04+ TL. The Pilot and accord just don't do anything for me.

    On a side note, my problem is I would buy a Mazda 6 right now instead of buying a Honda. I hope the next Accord they style it real good. Right now I am a Acura CL owner.
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