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Has Honda's run - run out?

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Comments

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I guess we'll never know. BUT the RSX-S costs a lot more than $19.9K. And that ain't no Type-R. And that Skyline won't have a warranty and NO dealer support network. But hey what's an apples to apples comparison worth anyway?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Pal the Integra Type-R actually would "Run" and was a pocket rocket. Honda hasn't built a true drivers car for the die hard gear heads since.

    Rocky
  • hahahahaha lol big time.

    image

    best 30 grand I could have spent. For the same price there is NOTHING like this...
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Honda hasn't built a true drivers car for the die hard gear heads since.

    S2000
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Yeah whatever.......The Integra Type-R would smoke the S2000 like a cheap cigar. Look at the track times and get back to me. ;)

    Rocky
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    And the S2000 is a RWD convertible. Never mind the fact that a Type R is near impossible to come across right now. Also besides the fact that niether of those cars cost the $19,900 that the Si cost. But that's beside the point. I really don't think there's much chance of any of us having to worry about actually buying a S2000 or a Type-R and taking it to the track. Whereas it is withing the realm of possibility to run down to the Honda store and buy an Si.

    I mean if you want to keep this discussion on whether the Si is a real value or not. But it seems this discussion has gone is some other direction.
  • I would add the RSX S or even a TSX for other "Drivers cars" that Honda put forth on the market. But don't forget Rock, the Civic was one of the icons that got the whole "Sport compact" craze started...
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Well, I guess if the S2000 isn't a "real driver's car", then Porsche and BMW need to head back to the drawing board. Cuz the S2K has whipped their products pretty good in terms of performance. Nissan's 350Z and a few others have been beaten by the S2K.

    If we set the bar that high, anything short of a 1/4 midget with a hemi welded to it starts to look a little soft.

    However, if we're just talking about offering a high performance vehicle for enthusiasts to drive... maybe it's your criteria that are whacked. Just a thought...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I didn't say the Civic was a crap pile, but is it really anything more than an Integra Type R?

    Integra Type-R was a stripped down to the basics track car, produced in extremely limited numbers (few hundred each year, world wide), and considering inflation based on 2001 pricing, would carry an MSRP of $27,100 in 2005.

    While Civic Si is only slightly more powerful (may be 10 HP or so, at peak, and likely more across every other engine speed due to aid of a larger displacement motor), it is essentially a luxury car compared to the Type-R, that can still deliver impressive performance, and all for $20K.

    Besides, if you choose to compare ITR directly to Civic Si... you should now already see how much more Civic Si is offering today compared to what ITR did in its day (besides thousands more units sold to Honda).
  • Actually, the Civic Si was a bit of an also ran to the early sport compact craze. The early years saw GTI's and GLH's battling with Turbo Escorts. Even the Colt Turbo was there before the Civic.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    And I don't think any of those matched the Civic in terms of refinement. They all came in about 130hp. Even the GLH was around that number unless you got the very limited edition Shelby.

    The GTI didn't get any real power until the VR6, and that engine was VERY thirsty and heavy. Not to mention the GTI had a twist beam rear suspension up until this generation. The SI got wishbones back in 1988 with the Civic redesign.

    The Colt/Mirage Turbo was all motor and no handling. Not to mention prone to self destruct. That's why there are none left. Same with the Escort.

    The Civic was the first to combine power, refinement, AND durability. Turbo motors are usually the first to die when it come to long term upkeep.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    the battle of two camps.

    There are those who prefer the stripped-down, essence-of-racer type cars, who loved the idea of the ITR, and older cars like the turbo Colts. They are fans of the Evo now. :-)

    The SI has always been more about balance: decent power, very good handling, and decent driver amenities - a car you could easily use as a daily driver, or take to the track without spending too much to make it track-worthy. It was never the fastest in the bunch, although I daresay a stock '07 SI would beat the last imported ITR (not the current JDM-only model) in any race you care to arrange. Better power down lower in the range = better launches. Slightly better power at the top end, peaking at a lower rpm too. And it is no also-ran in the handling department either. Even the ITR's limited slip is also standard in today's SI.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    I would love to see that comparo: Honda vs itself. Pit an RSX-S against an SI against the '01 ITR against an S2000 (just for fun) and see who wins. Is the S2000 a ringer in that group? Leave it out in that case.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "Yeah whatever.......The Integra Type-R would smoke the S2000 like a cheap cigar. Look at the track times and get back to me."

    Rocky, Rocky, Rocky. What are you doing over here from your day job defending the future of GM??? Don't get me wrong, glad you can manage to say nice things about an Acura product, but I just wish they were accurate.

    I owned an Integra and drove every model, including the Type R. I also owned a 2002 Honda S2000. The fact that I now own a Porsche 911S has not clouded my memory of how damn good that S2000 was, and I am still quick to recommend it over a base Boxster or pre-2005 Boxster S to anyone that asks.

    Apparantly, in wiggling through the Edmunds maze to get here from the GM boards, you bumped your head rather hard. The Integra Type R was a nicely souped up FWD sporty coupe. Period. Could it keep pace with my FWD 2004 Acura TL 6 speed? Definitely not in a straight line, possibly in the curves on a smooth road, not on a rough road at all. As a FWD coupe it was one of the best in its class. But that's like me saying I'm the best over 45 weekend golfer in my group. Not exactly the same as beating Tiger Woods.

    I used to think I was partial to the S2000 because, at the time, it was all I could justify spending on a "fun" car. Now I know better. The S2000 impressed me because it truly is a world class sports car. Not to be confused with an affordable FWD sporty coupe. Ever.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It had atleast 230 hp. something the Civic Si could only dream about. BTW- your over-rated S2000 has 240 hp. and weighs significantly more and thus the Integra-R is faster 0-60, salaom, Skidpad, basically better at everything but comfort. ;) However continue to glorify the "H2K"!!!!!
    I am unbiased on Honda products, and yes a GM layal guy. I however am not the one who's bumped their head hard enough to get a "concussion :P " and distort the facts from fantasies. Why not give the "R" it's over due respect on the track.

    :shades:
    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    a true ITR fan, huh Rocky?

    The type-R never got higher than 195 hp in stock form - check here:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/acura/integra/100000493/specs.html

    It was a wonderful skateboard with a hard ride and handling most people can only dream of. But it had its own drawbacks, too. That's why the new RSX-S was considered such an advancement of the Integra in 2002 - it could beat the very limited edition type-R in most situations, yet cost less, was easier to find, and was more comfortable to drive.

    basically, the old ITR was outdated in a market that had moved on by 2001. The old Integra ran on for 8 years, altogether too long, while Honda tried to figure out if it wanted to kill it in America (to class up the Acura line) or update it. Now the same fear exists: will Honda kill the RSX this tima around, or will there be an updated 2007?

    Mum's the word. :mad:

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well their must of been a 230hp. version made. I remember reading about it in MT. ;)

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    195 hp was the peak for stock cars in the U.S. Certainly everyone and their mother has done aftermarket preps on these cars, boosting power in the process. And Japanese home market cars that were never imported here had more power in stock form too.

    And MT certainly reports very regularly on cars tuned with aftermarket parts, which is probably what you read. ;-)

    There is currently a type-R in Japan that makes like 260 hp if memory serves (which, unfortunately, it doesn't always!)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Well their must of been a 230hp. version made. I remember reading about it in MT
    Never.

    The most powerful ITR Honda ever sold had 220 ps... that will be the current ITR, using an engine also shared by Accord Euro-R and basically the same engine that Civic Si uses.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Ok maybe it was 220 hp. ;) I was close !!!! ;)

    Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Look Rocky, I'd like to keep this friendly, but you really need to stop spewing out gross inaccuracies with some tag line as "something I think I read"

    The FACTS:

    Acura Integra Type R: Type R road test
    0-60: 6.7 sec
    1/4 Mile: 15.2 sec @ 92.9 mph
    60-0: 113 feet
    Slalom (Edmunds): 62.4 mph

    Honda S2000 (2002 - Motor Trend)
    0-60: 5.2 sec.
    1/4 mile: 13.8 sec @ 101.8 mph
    60-0: 106 feet
    Slalom: 71.1 mph (R&T)

    Not only is the FWD Type R magnitudes below the S2000 in every performance measure, the Type R is well below my 2004 Acura TL 6-speed. And it's a family sedan.

    Am I defensive of the S2000? Damn right. Other than the 15+ year old NSX, it is the only true sports car ever produced by Honda/Acura. And, in my opinion, a BETTER one than the NSX.

    Teenie bopper boy racers might find souped up FWD Integas, Civics and Preludes their cup of tea. But as someone fortunate enough to be able to shop BMW, Porsche and even (don't tell my wife) Ferrari, the fact that Honda put out a ground up RWD sports car masterpiece like the S2000 was a great big breath of fresh air. Especially at a time when Toyota had completely punted the segment and Nissan's parts sharing, overweight 350Z was a complete insult and embarassment to the original 240Z.

    The FACTS don't lie, Rocky. But don't take my word for it. Go back to your GM - Corvette board and let Starrow - an accomplished (and mature) Laguna Seca regular tell you how S2000's regularly pass him in a 400hp Corvette.

    I, for one, would like to see Honda and Acura put out one or two real ground up RWD sports cars that seriously compete with Porsche for the serious enthusiast. Not try to swoon boy-racer wannabes with R versions of cheap FWD coupes. If you disagree, that's fine. But try to keep some semblance of accuracy in your statments. Thanks.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    0-60 was 5.4 for the 220 hp. Type-R I saw in MT some years ago. I do remember it was a track car, some sort of special edition with racing seats. It was nothing like the GS-R which was actually luxurious for a small car. ;)

    BTW-Edmunds isn't always going to have the fastest track times. "All cars aren't created equal" On another note Motor Trend would shave a second or so off the time, because it's got a A or H emblem on it. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The FACTS don't lie, Rocky. But don't take my word for it. Go back to your GM - Corvette board and let Starrow - an accomplished (and mature) Laguna Seca regular tell you how S2000's regularly pass him in a 400hp Corvette.

    The only way a S2K is going to pass a Vette, GTO, Mustang GT or Shelby, Charger SRT-8, 300SRT-8, Jeep SUV :P SRT-8,
    XLR-V, STS-V, CTS-V, Ford GT, Viper, Neon SRT-4, if the driver is asleep at the wheel, or is in 6th and crusing talking to his spouse. ;)

    habitat1, pal don't you think your getting ahead of your self saying a Honda competing with a Porsche. I guess it's ok to dream. I guess the next NSX might. ;)

    Rocky
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Ok maybe it was 220 hp. I was close !!!!

    Unreal. Out of one side of his mouth, this guy is saying that Honda hasn't built any real performance cars. Then out of the other side he's saying that the current version of the Integra is the greatest thing on the road.

    Rocky, this is the 220 hp ITR you think is so superior. If you think that it looks a little bit like the current Acura RSX, I'd forgive you.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It was the best FWD car Honda ever made. The RSX could only dream of being such a "need for speed" pocket rocket. ;) Besides that and the NSX, their isn't much performance off of the Honda assembly line. "H2K" a Miata with a higher reving engine. *yawn* :surprise:

    Rocky
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The RSX is the ITR.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Ok :surprise: If you say so. :shades:

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    I just can't resist responding again!

    The 220 hp Integra type-R robertsmx mentioned is the CURRENT ONE, which we DON'T GET IN AMERICA.

    What we call the RSX here in America is still called the Integra everywhere in the world outside North America.

    Once again, the most powerful Integra type-R we ever got in America was the 195 hp one I already mentioned.

    Got it?

    There is NO WAY the type-R could hold its own against properly designed RWD sports cars like the S2000, NO WAY.

    And yes, on any track with corners it is easy to believe that an S2000 could keep up with or pass a Corvette, because of its balance and handling.

    And I would still love to see that "Honda vs itself" comparo I mentioned above. Include the S2000 - even if it runs away from the others, they would still compete among themselves, plus it would be nice to be reminded of what the S2000 can do. It is such a shame they have decided not to renew the run of this model with a second gen.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    And yes, on any track with corners it is easy to believe that an S2000 could keep up with or pass a Corvette, because of its balance and handling.

    I wish Edmunds could arrange that race. !!!!! :P

    Rocky

    P.S. I'd love to bet you even money on it too. ;)
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Acura RSX (US) = Honda Integra (Japan). Acura renamed the US Integra in 2002 for some dumb reason (and Honda blubbered it up and dumbed down the suspension, but that is another gripe).
This discussion has been closed.