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Toyota Tundra Prices Paid

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Comments

  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Here's a computerized version of a Toyota factory invoice. At the bottom, you will see all the itemized "fees." If you live in the SET region, an admin fee of ~$750 would be added or in lieu of the TDA. But, for educational purposes, if you were to build this vehicle to it's exact specs via this site, the invoice should match everything except the TDA. Reitterating that the dest., holdback, wfr, and gasoline are already built into the invoice.

    18186 VEHICLE INQUIRY REPORT DATE: 04/07/08
    DCV920 TIME: 09:51
    Model Number: 8352A SERIAL # :8X053419 Check Code: 0

    Model Description: DCAB LTD 5.7L V8 Category ..........: G
    Year ............: 2008 Current Dealer ....: 110-04136
    Interior Color ..: LD13 LD13 Wholesale Dealer ..: 04136
    Exterior Color ..: 0040 WHITE Previous Dealer ...: 00110
    Body ............: DBL CAB 5.7L LTD Invoice Date ......: 02/08/08
    Number of Cyl ...: 8 Ship Date .........: 02/07/08
    Allocation Number: 012 Retail Date .......:
    Engine Number ...: 5206225 Date of First Use .:
    Vessel Number ...: 705 TRAC ..............: NO
    Vessel Name .....: TMMTX SANANTONIO Damage ............: NO DAMAGE
    PDI ...............: YES
    Fleet .............: NON-FLEET
    Port PDS Complete .: NO

    VIN .............: 5TFBV58148XXXXXXX
    Ignition Key.....: N/A

    Factory Installed Accessories: FE AL
    Port Installed Accessories ..: C4 7J

    Retail Dealer
    Vehicle Base Model ....................: $ 38770.00 $ 33923.00
    Total Accessories .....................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50

    MECHANICAL & PERFORMANCE
    GVWR = 7100 lbs. Payload = 1560 lbs.
    Tow Capacity = 10,300 lbs.
    381HP/401 Lb-Ft 5.7L DOHC 32V iForce V8
    w/Dual Independent VVT-I and ACIS
    6-Spd Auto w/Seq Shift and Tow/Haul Mode
    Engine Immobilizer, Cruise Control
    4WDemand 4x4 System w/Electronically
    Controlled 2 Speed Transfer Case
    Tow Equip: Hitch Receiver, Supp A/T
    Cooler, 4.30 Rear Diff w/10.5" Ring Gear
    150A Alternator, A/T Temp Gauge, 7 Pin
    Conn, Trailer Brake Controller Prewire
    Automatic Limited Slip Diff (Auto LSD)
    Front and Rear Sonar
    TripleTech Frame: Fully-boxed Fr Section
    Reinforced C Under Cab, Open C Under Bed
    Coil Over Shock Double A-Arm Front Susp
    Multi-Leaf Trapezoidal Rear Suspension
    18" Alloy Wheels w/P275/65R18 Tires
    EXTERIOR
    6.5'' Double-Walled Bed w/Tailgate Assist
    Color-keyed Fr/Chrome Rr Bumper
    Chrome Grille/Door Handles/Outer Mirror
    Sliding Rr Window w/Privacy Glass
    Fog Lamps
    INTERIOR
    Leather Trim Pwr Heated Front Buckets
    Automatic Dual Zone Climate Control
    JBL AM/FM 6-CD, 10 Spkrs, Aux Audio Jack
    w/Steering Wheel Audio Cntrls, Bluetooth
    Power Windows/Door Locks/Mirrors
    Remote Keyless Entry & Anti-Theft System
    SAFETY
    STAR Safety: Pwr Assist 4 Wheel Disc ABS
    w/Electronic Brakeforce Distrib (EBD),
    Brake Assist, Vehicle Stability Control
    with Active Traction Control (VSC+ATRAC)
    Dr & Fr Pass Advanced Airbags/Seat Side
    Airbags/3 pt Seatbelts w/Pretensioners
    & Force Limiters
    Roll-Sensing Curtain Airbags (RSCA)
    Tire Pressure Monitoring System
    Retail Dealer Total
    Vehicle Base Model ..........................:$ 38770.00 $ 33923.00 $ 38770.00
    50 State Emissions .........................
    20" Alloy Wheels w/P275/55R20 Tires ........ 920.00 736.00
    Carpet Floor Mats - 4 piece ................ 115.00 69.00
    Front License Plate Bracket ................ 13.00 8.50
    --------- --------- ---------
    Total Accessories ...........................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50 $ 1048.00
    Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00
    TDA .........................................: $ 400.00
    Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00
    Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 775.00
    Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 387.00

    --------- ---------
    Total .......................................Invoice: $ 36993.50 / MSRP: $ 40503.00
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    In regards to the rebates, dealers do NOT get paid on these! They are not profit items. It is subsidized money that comes straight from the manufacturer and is used just like a cash down payment. Every customer gets them, unless they opt for and qualify for a low apr. They cannot "hide them" from you and cash them in. If you do not opt for low financing, you WILL get the rebate - no questions asked. If you want to blame somebody, blame your state DMV, as they are the ones who determine what and how much you're taxed - not the dealer.

    In most cases... you get one or the other - the rebate or low apr, which in this case, you said you were opting for the low apr, so the rebate wouldn't have even applied too you.
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    Thank you. Your information is very useful and informative. I stand corrected. The information you provide are not disclosed to the average consumer. The issue I have is the advertisment of low or -0-% financing, but at the back in or at the time of closing, all these above fees are automatically listed and not fully explained upfront. The auto retail game is to keep the customer in the dark and "closed the sale." It is very interesting that when a customer declines the extended warranties or rust proofing additional charges, it is like a slap in the face to the saleman, and next thing on the final signing docs, more additional charges are added. That's my experience with closing. Thanks for your input.
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    Assuming that you qualify, Toyota's -0-% financing is more a marketing ploy than reality. What I find in my research is that "there are no free lunches", and that's goes for -0-% or low interest rates on auto financing. The additional fees tacked on at closing can be construed as "disguised prepaid interest" in the form of mandatory fees, cicumventing the "truth and lending" requirements set forth by FTC. "Substance over form" in dealing with "structured finance transactions." Assuming you are correct in your assessment of mandatory fees, it is not properly disclosed to the average "joe".
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    I still don't understand what "fees" you are alluding too? If you're still referring to the TDA (ad fee), holdback and wfr... remember, they ARE part of the invoice and they are clearly mentioned on sites like Edmunds and KBB. Besides, these are billed items from the manufacturer and not some measly fee the dealer tacked on to screw you. In a competitive market, you can offer whatever you want, but the dealer has the right to say yes or no. Supply and demand will dictate how much he lets his product go for. Aged units, colors, trim levels, regional variances, etc... they all plays into the price.

    You stated that you bought a few other vehicles at invoice, and since most manufacturers have holdback and a regional ad fee, you paid these and just didn't know it. Most hard copy invoices from the manufacturer don't itemize the fees - they're simply built into the invoice, just like you see here on Edmunds. The fees you saw on the vehicle inquiry report were itemized, but they tally up to the total invoice price the dealer was billed. Toyota can charge whatever they want for their products, and they did just that, and it's not a crime for a franchised dealer to pass on their costs to you - the consumer. This is where properly preparing yourself to make a purchase comes into play.

    As for financing, when Toyota offers 0% or whatever special rate, in most cases, if a consumer is Tier 1 and above ( 700 FICO or higher) and they opt for that financing, they get it - nothing shady about it. What research have you done that proves otherwise? A dealer can't mark-up special financing, in fact, they may have to pay into it to help subsidize the low rate since it's usually well below current rates. In most cases, when a rebate is available in lieu of the special financing, and a customer opts for the financing, the money that would be used towards the rebate is typically shifted to subsidize the low rate. The only thing that might make a customer balk is a possible pre-payment penalty. TFS has no pre-payment penalty after 3 months, but what's shady about that? That's up to the lender, not the dealer.

    In regards to the products/services a finance manager tries to sell you, it's not that hard to just say "no thank you" and move on. You can't take it personally if they mope (and who really cares anyway), and if they make you feel guilty, in essence, they've done their job.
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    Let me back up to the beginning ....for any manufactured product, if its computers, software, manufacturered cars or any finished goods (wigets), manufactured in the U.S. or anywhere in the world for that matter, has the same accounting standards (GAAP) or methodogy to compute the total cost of a manufactured product or wiget . "Total Cost "of a manufactured product consists of 3 components : direct costs, indirect costs, and overhead= Total Costs of that manufactured product. This product or finished good is then sold to the retailer; in this case, the auto dealership. The auto dealership purchases the car from the manufactured as a complete unit. The actual price paid or total cost of A "car" is less than the posted Edmunds or Kelly Blue Book "dealer invoice sheet". The reality is that the so called "dealer invoice" is a reference standard for the consumer. This "standard cost sheet " is just a "reference sheet"; the so called "dealer invoice cost" that everyone sees listed on the internet is NOT the true and accurate cost reported to the EU (European Union for value added tax) nor the SEC nor posted or used in Generally Accepted Audited Financial Statements.For the accounting of retail dealerships in the U.S., GAAP or general accepted accounting procedures are used to compute profit or loss for each dealership. The accounting for retail dealerships are no different than the accounting for Walmart or Target or any retailer.

    In the world of accounting for auto dealerships, costs paid and incurred by the retailer for such costs as marketing (advertising), bank financing (interest expense), salaries, rent, utilities are considered selling and overhead costs. In the real world, these costs paid or incurred by the retailer are not passed on to the consumer. The retailer, Walmart, does not charge the consumer for an additional mark up or "mandatory fees" in addition to the sale price of an item listed in sales ad, except for local sales tax (a true mandatory fee) or Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.
    The MSRP is a suggested retail price. It is not mandated by the manufactured; it is only suggested. The so called "dealer's invoice" is just a reference to a standard cost of a finished item; it is definitely not used in financial or tax accounting that is reported to the SEC or IRS or EU.
    In purchasing a car, the consumer negoitates A "price" that his willing to pay. He doesn't want to be nickled and dime; average "Joe" just wants "one -final -negotiated -price. " In the world of negoitations, one will often hear, "tax, license, complete" for 1-price. NOT,"or by the way I have to add marketing, interest, delivery to your final negotiated price.
    According to all the auto brochures, "dealerships MAY include an advertising fee on top of the MSRP." Who pays MSRP? the dealer MAY ,not must, not will ...
    Getting back to your comments. When a consumer pays in addition to his final negoiated price; he expects Tax, License and DMV fees. Not what the dealership demands that he pays (mandatory fees) in addition to. In the regulated world of the Federal Trade Commission for consumers, the fair market value of a product is determine between a willing buyer and a willing seller, NOT in addition to! That was my point. In my previous comments, I should have preface that I was coming from the world of accounting for tax and SEC.
    Your points are well addressed in your comments. I am coming from a consumer and tax accountant. Have a great day!
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Going back to your original arguement. When you asked for invoice, what price did you expect? Did you check Edmunds or KBB? If you did, you would have seen that their selling price only differed by the amount of the ad fee. Plus, the fact that you drove quite a ways to see this vehicle, they really had no incentive to give you the best price. A local dealer at least has a ray of hope of you coming back for service and parts.

    Once again... Invoice is not cost, and I never said it was. For example, let's say you agree on a price $500 over dealer invoice for a Tundra, hopefully by now you realize that you didn't pay $500 profit. If you get a deal at $500 over (invoice less holdback and wfr), you still didn't pay a $500 profit. A dealer's profit margin involves a lot more than just what is paid for the vehicle and quite frankly, it's really not the customer's business. The sales staff isn't even aware of what the true dead cost is, nor should they. The customer should not be in the business of concerning him/herself with the financials of the dealership.

    Look, if the dealer started writing in a bunch of extraneous fees on your purchase order, then you'd have every right to question them, but on a true invoice from a manufacturer, those fees were paid, whether the customer wants to believe it or not. They are not "nickel & dime" fees. Holdback was paid upfront by the dealer (as part of the invoice), and yes, this money is refunded back to them, typically quarterly, as is the wfr, but they typically go right back into overhead expenses. The TDA was paid to the regional distributor and is never refunded (at least for Toyota).

    There is no doubt that the automotive industry has created a life-long negative stigma. It sucks, but it's the nature of the business. As a consumer myself, I may have a leg up as I worked in the business and currently still consult. However, as an independent consultant, I have zero allegiance to any dealer or the slimy tricks they may pull. This is why I post on this board - to help people, not to flash around my knowledge.

    Like I said, a consumer can offer anything he wants, but you let your emotions get the best of you because you simply had no clue that those fees were part of the invoice. And in regards to the advertisnig fee, if you think that products you buy at a retail store don't have that cost built in to their product, you're nuts. Besides, buying a truck is not the same as buying a TV from Walmart - nobody at Walmart has the authority to field a price offer from a customer. If a TV is on sale for $799, you don't walk in and say you'll give them $500 for it. You'd get laughed out of the store. Needless to say, shopping for a car is not to be compared with shopping for "other" retail items. It's a completely different way of buying.

    You are correct about the invoice being an arbitrary number though. It simply allows you to compare dealer A to dealer B. If you know what people are paying for this vehicle and you got a dealer to give it too you, I still don't see what all the fuss is about. If you don't want to pay the the holdback, financial reserve, and the ad fee - fine, offer them $2k below invoice. If they say yes, you've got an exceptional deal, if they say no - well, then you'll know that they're not as desperate as everything thinks.

    Despite what people are saying about high fuel prices, demand still varies in the truck market. For example, a Crew Maxx 5.7L is not nearly as distressed as a 4.7L Double Cab. Therefore, $1000 below invoice on the DC could probably be had all day long, whereas with a CM, they may not take anything less than invoice.

    BTW... I notice you live in Salinas, I have a fantastic Fleet contact at one of the Toyota dealerships in the bay area. If you give me the specs and color of what type of truck you're looking for, I'd be happy to set you up, or get you a quote at the very least. And no, I do not work for him or recieve a referral fee. He's just an honest, professional straight shooter who will tell you what he can and can't do.

    Depsite what you might think, I want you to get a truck, and I want you to get a great deal. But understand, no matter what Toyota dealership you go to, when you ask to see the invoice (on their computer), they will all have the same items the first dealer showed you. Why? Because they are costs billed from the manufacturer - simple as that. You just happened to see them in itemized form. Had they of shown you a hard copy, the price would have been exactly the same and you would have had no idea that they were included.
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    From a consumer, I expected to receive a competitve and fair price. For the average consumer, the Edmunds or KBB "dealer's invoice" is my reference for a fair and determinable (fair market price), not MSRP or what a dealership or retailer what's to sell. Dealership bread and butter profits comes from service, not from sales. The gross margins does not support the business. Agreed, the fixed and variable costs are built into the product or car or computer or any manufactured item. The dealership is a retailer; he doesn't manufacture any wigets; his job is to move the inventory at A "price". The retailer will incurred and pay selling costs, ie floor interest, advertising, salaries. The dealership does not "directly" pass these selling costs to the consumer; he adds a mark up to the (paid price of the manufactured item) to arrive at his "selling price." He may or will at times sell the car or truck above, at, or below his actual cost to "move the inventory." All retailers repond to the marketplace: demand vs supply. My initial point as a consumer is that at the "time of closing or signing", I don't want to be "nickled and dimed" by A "salesman" for so called "mandatory fees". The only mandatory fees are state and local taxes, NOT, some "marketing ploy" or "sales practice" to get the consumer to pay added costs (in this case-profit). Granted, there are additional fees or costs that the manufactured invoices to the retailer or the dealer incurs additional "bank flooring costs" or "inventory costs." From an accounting and tax perspective for "financial statements purposes" to the owners, shareholders, SEC or the IRS or Franchise Tax Board, they are accounted for as part of Cost of Sales and Selling Costs.
    The average consumer does not have direct access to the Dealership's books and records. The financial or cost accountants, internal and outside auditors have this knowledge. After all , we're paid to follow the cash.
    From my perspective as a consumer and accountant, I refuse to participate in the "marketing or sales tactics" used in the "closing game of the sale." The auto retail industry and the timeshare industry use the same selling and marketing tactics to "close the sale." They're job is to SELL; they have to eat. I, as a consumer, chose to participate or walk to another dealer. In my case, I am going to purchase the truck from Toyota USA. Knowledge is key to the consumer, especially when you examine numbers for a living and report these numbers to the SEC, IRS, State Franchise Tax Board, and the shareholder or dealership owners.
    My main point in all our discussions is the "marketing and sales game" used at the time of closing A "sale". The auto retail industry deserves the stigma as being "unethical" in using these marketing/closing tactics:
    -0-% or low interest financing, free this or free that-TO get you into the door. Timeshare selling 101.
    Your observations as a consultant to the industry are well taken. I am just coming from debits and credits and legal.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Words in italics are quotes from justbrowse. My answers are in bold.

    From a consumer, I expected to receive a competitve and fair price. For the average consumer, the Edmunds or KBB "dealer's invoice" is my reference for a fair and determinable (fair market price), not MSRP or what a dealership or retailer what's to sell.

    MSRP has not been mentioned, so that's never been the issue - but I have to assume that you researched invoice pricing on Edmund's, so how far off was their quoted price from what you saw online? Again, my guess is that it was off the few hundred bucks for the TDA? Edmund's also has a section that discuss' regional advertising fees.

    Dealership bread and butter profits comes from service, not from sales. The gross margins does not support the business. Agreed, the fixed and variable costs are built into the product or car or computer or any manufactured item. The dealership is a retailer; he doesn't manufacture any wigets; his job is to move the inventory at A "price". The retailer will incurred and pay selling costs, ie floor interest, advertising, salaries. The dealership does not "directly" pass these selling costs to the consumer; he adds a mark up to the (paid price of the manufactured item) to arrive at his "selling price." He may or will at times sell the car or truck above, at, or below his actual cost to "move the inventory." All retailers repond to the marketplace: demand vs supply.

    Fair enough, but this is simply repeating what we both already know.

    My initial point as a consumer is that at the "time of closing or signing", I don't want to be "nickled and dimed" by A "salesman" for so called "mandatory fees". The only mandatory fees are state and local taxes, NOT, some "marketing ploy" or "sales practice" to get the consumer to pay added costs (in this case-profit). Granted, there are additional fees or costs that the manufactured invoices to the retailer or the dealer incurs additional "bank flooring costs" or "inventory costs."

    Okay, fair enough, but as you stated, and I can only assume that you utilized this site for pricing comparison - so if you are to base a "competitive" price against what you saw here, and were not aware of the fees, you still thought you were getting a deal, so where's the problem? It's pointless to keep repeating what's already been covered. And once again, Edmund's and virtually all other third party pricing sites include the holdback and wfr (for Toyota) in their INVOICE pricing. So I guess technically they should be reported for "hiding" these fees too, right? C'mon! You knew what Edmund's invoice price was, so the question you still didn't answer was... how could you have been shocked when the invoice they showed you was almost identical to what your researched proved? This is the question I've been trying to get out of you, but 3 posts later and have nothing more than fancy verbage? Okay, I get that the fees were itemized, but they were/are already included in the Edmund's pricing that you researched online and claimed that you use to determine a "fair market value"? Now, if the dealer's invoice was "packed" a few grand over and above what you saw online, then by all means I'd have some questions!

    The average consumer does not have direct access to the Dealership's books and records. The financial or cost accountants, internal and outside auditors have this knowledge.

    Nor should they or to any business for that matter.

    In my case, I am going to purchase the truck from Toyota USA.

    How are you purchasing directly from Toyota w/o going through a franchised dealer? Only guess is that you're getting employee pricing from your family member? Does she work for a regional distributor? My guess is that you'll pay factory invoice minus the holdback and wfr (typical employee pricing). That would be an excellent deal.

    Knowledge is key to the consumer.

    Now this we can agree on!
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    Your comments and observations are very well written and well received; after all, you are the consultant in this field. In our discussions, we have agreed on a lot points; however, as a consumer, I have issues with the sales and marketing practices of the auto industry. From my consumer retail perspective, selling and marketing of a high-end manurfactured product is no different than selling and marketing timeshares. Both industries are similar: high dollar item, available financing, creative marketing, and the same sales tactics and methodogy used in high pressured sales. Retail is retail. As an accounting professional, the accounting of income and expenses to the auto retailer is not different than any other retailer i.e. Costco, Target, Pep-Boys, and Walmart. The only stand out difference is the "sales practices and sales tactics used." Granted, they all have the same fixed and variable costs, and they all post "MSRP" on their products and have sales. However, in your auto industry, the creative marketing is to pass on these so called "fees" or expenses to the consumer on top of the agreed upon sales price at closing or signing. As a consumer, I can choose to pay or accept or negotiate with the dealer or walk. In my case, I am challenging and questioning these so called mandatory expenses. I agree, they are listed, but it doesn't mean I have to pay at closing or signing! The consumer question is: Why do I have to pay for your incurred marketing and floor interest expense? But, the answer is, That's the way we operate and do things around here for the past 50 years. As a consumer, I have a choice-pay it or don't pay it. In my case, I am challenging and questioning it. If I am spending $40,000 on A car or any high-end product or timeshare, I'm going to do my homework and due dilligence before I set foot on your showroom floor.

    I applaud Edmunds and KBB in helping the consumer in his "due dilligence." One day, your auto retail industry will have to change to the "Ebay"/ "Amazon" way of marketing cars...click, click and pick up your car at a designated pick up point...get rid of the high pressured sales and marketing tactics. If Costco can sell high end manufactured products and be very successful at it; they can surely sell cars...one day...

    With the economy slowing down and consumer sentiment at a 1982 low, and dealerships flushed with unsold inventory, more power to the Consumer!
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    Be a patient buyer...the economy will get worse before it will get better. September / and near year end is a great time. The dealerships are flushed with unsold Tundras; there are still 07's sitting on the lots, along with the 08's, and the 09's are coming out in late September/Oct. You're not going to miss out on low interest or -0-% financing, there will always going to be deals! There are too much product out there to choose: Ford, GM, Dodge, Nissan....Toyota....the car industry is using creative marketing to get you into the doors: -0- this, low this and that, free this and free that....The bottom line is that going to hammered by the saleman at closing....Timesales 101.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    You still never answered the question(s), but that's okay, it really doesn't matter at this point. I was just interested to know what you thought was a "fair" (as you called it) price?

    I still want to know how you're buying your truck directly through Toyota?
  • justbrowsejustbrowse Member Posts: 14
    A "fair price" is between a willing buyer and a willing seller. NOT, by the way I have to add on my variable and selling costs on top of our agreed upon price!

    The Ebay pricing....... get into the world of internet pricing....not what has been done (sales practices and procedures) for the past 50 years.. Retail is Retail: it's not rocket science. Don't glamorize the retail auto industry; it's racks at the top along with Timeshare selling....
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Well, please post what you pay when you do buy? Interested to know...

    I still want to know how you're buying direct? Doesn't happen unless you're a distributor or far up the chain!?!?!
  • horns90horns90 Member Posts: 4
    Was quoted 29,999 drive out. Just wondering if I could do better. Feedback please. Thanks!!!

    Specs:

    (BM) Ball Mount
    (WT) Window Tint
    (DS) Door Sill Enhancements
    (AB) 20 Inch Carved Wheel Upgrade
    (WR) Sliding Rear Window w/ Privacy Glass
    (LF) Fog Lamps
    (EJ) JBL Am/Fm Audio w/ 6 Disc Changer.
    (RL) Daytime Running Lights
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Where do you live (zip)? What's your tax rate?
  • horns90horns90 Member Posts: 4
    zip is 77494. Rate is .0825
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Does this vehicle have an MSRP of $32,297??
  • horns90horns90 Member Posts: 4
    MSRP = 33,266
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    If you're financing through TFS, ask them if there is an additional $1000 Bonus cash? If not, there is a $3000 rebate in your area.

    Like I tell everyone, you'll want them to itemize your OTD price. What are they selling you the vehicle for (in relation to invoice)? How much are your DMV's? How much is the Doc fee?

    I'd say on a truck like this, invoice to $1000 below is a great selling price.

    Selling Price + tax & doc = ??? + DMV's - rebate = Total amount to be financed (OTD)

    Look out for high doc fees. In California, we are capped at $55, but I've seen it as high as $700 in some sates - that's just flat out ridiculous!
  • horns90horns90 Member Posts: 4
    I'm financing through a credit union, would take the 3000 rebate. Only fees I was aware of on top of the vehicle cost was destination charge (685) and dealer holdbacks (562). Did some math and thought this may be 10% off the MSRP before rebates and TT&L. Didn't know if this was a good deal for my area.

    What do you mean when you say "a truck like this"? Do you mean that the truck doesn't have a lot on it so they are more likely to sell at invoice or below?

    I asked to see the invoice and saw 24,858 or something. He said that this was the base invoice. But who knows if that is the actual invoice? I mean, does the salesman even know?

    I asked the salesman about hidden fees and he said that I wouldn't pay anymore than the qouted price. If I buy, but finance through a credit union, what should I look out for when closing at the dealership? BTW, I would be ordering this truck. The guy said it would probably be ready from two days to three weeks. Don't know if that makes a difference on anything.

    Thanks for the help
  • existentistexistentist Member Posts: 1
    Thinking about an '08 Tundra CrewMax Texas Edition in 79109 with sales tax of 8.25%. We were quoted $32,808 +TTL.

    Texas Edition
    -Stainless Steel Exhaust Tip
    -Door Sill Enhancements.
    -18 Inch Enkei Wheel Upgrade
    -Running Boards
    -Custom Carpeted Floor Mats
    -Texas Edition Badging

    How does this sound to y'all?
  • sheepster08sheepster08 Member Posts: 1
    I was just offered 34,500 out the door on a new 2wd 5.7 liter crewmax SR5.
    It has a few upgrades:
    18 in alloy wheels
    JBL audio system upgrade with bluetooth
    front and rear sonar
    floor mats

    i was just wondering if this is a good price
    the MSRP was 34,552
    and I am taking the 0% financing
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    I'm financing through a credit union, would take the 3000 rebate. Only fees I was aware of on top of the vehicle cost was destination charge (685) and dealer holdbacks (562). Did some math and thought this may be 10% off the MSRP before rebates and TT&L. Didn't know if this was a good deal for my area.

    Destination is a set fee - everyone pays it. If you go back and read through some of my posts, I explain Toyota's fees (in great detail) that you'll typically see on a factory invoice, which include: TDA (regional advertising fee), Holdback (2% of base msrp) and Wholesale Financial Reserve (1% of base MSRP). These "fees" + all your options amount to the TOTAL factory invoice = how much the dealer was billed for the vehicle. Holdback and WFR are already built into the invoice prices you see on sites like Edmund's and KBB. The TDA is not however, as it varies by region (usually adds ~$500). The dealer pays this amount to it's regional distributor and is NOT refunded any of that money.

    Now, is this his "dead" cost - absolutely not, only the owner of the dealership knows that, but "that" cost involves much more than just the price of the vehicle itself. Your main concern is making sure that they sell you the vehicle at or near the factory invoice (before rebate is figured in).

    Most, if not all dealers will charge a documentation and processing fee, typically referred to as the "doc fee." Just make sure they don't gouge you and charge something ridiculous like $500 or $600.

    Obviously, you'll have to pay gov't fees like license & registration.


    What do you mean when you say "a truck like this"? Do you mean that the truck doesn't have a lot on it so they are more likely to sell at invoice or below?

    Not what I meant at all - just letting you know that the full size truck market is soft and a selling price of invoice or below should be had any day of the week in most regions.

    I asked to see the invoice and saw 24,858 or something. He said that this was the base invoice. But who knows if that is the actual invoice? I mean, does the salesman even know?

    A retail salesman may very well NOT know the invoice of the vehicle, which is even more reason that you should be working with a fleet manager. This person will know the correct figures and has the ability to "desk his own deals" - which basically means that he can play around with the numbers and approve a deal without the back and forth BS you have to go through with a retail salesman. "Let me go check with my manager... blah, blah, blah..."

    Dealer should have no problem showing you his "vehicle inquiry report" which is the computerized version of the hard-copy factory invoice. This report will itemize all your options and the fees like TDA, HB, and WFR which show you the total MSRP and total Invoice. If he has a problem showing this too you, find another dealer.


    I asked the salesman about hidden fees and he said that I wouldn't pay anymore than the qouted price. If I buy, but finance through a credit union, what should I look out for when closing at the dealership? BTW, I would be ordering this truck. The guy said it would probably be ready from two days to three weeks. Don't know if that makes a difference on anything.

    Don't get too wrapped up with the "fees" on the invoice as thy are indeed legit. They were paid, but the HB will be refunded to them at a later date, unless the dealer trades for your vehicle, in which case the trading dealership keeps that money.

    Have your check ready from your CU before making the purchase. Simply hand it to the finance manager and he should take care of the rest. Of course, he'll try to sell you some "back-end" items like rustpoofing, fancy wax, extended warranty, etc. I'd simply say "no thank you" to everything he offers, at least the first two items, but you'll have to decide how important an extended warranty is.

    Is he going to actually request a "build order" from Toyota, or he is trading with another dealership - two totally seperate scenarios. If he trades for it from another dealership, there are some factors that could affect his bottom line, such as... he loses the holdback (the trading dealer gets that reimbursement from the factory).
  • mrvmanmrvman Member Posts: 5
    I am interested in an "08" Tundra, 4DR. DBL. Cab. 4WD. SB, 5.7 L8cyl. Limited. I would like the following options; NV (navigation), SO (sonar), OF (TRD pkg), TM (towing mirrors), super white with a biege interior. I would add XM radio. No running boards, 20 in. wheels or dealer add ons. I am told that ordering (building a truck) is not available, that I must take what they have or buy domestic which allows orders. Is this true? How long does it take to build? When is the last date to build/order an 08? On the deal, this time of year, should I pay invoice or? What is the good deal on a truck like this. I am in southeastern Arizona, 85635. How should this deal go? Or as the salesperson told me, forget it, buy a domestic? Thanks for the help
  • mrvmanmrvman Member Posts: 5
    I just got off the phone with a Toyota dealer and I was told that the invoice on a Tundra limited, DBL cab, 4X4, std bed, 5.7LV8 is $35,947 on top of the invoice price is TDA=$700, $10 in gas, $771 holdback! for a total of $37,428 this is invoice? I asked if these charges were "packed" into the invoice and he said everyone except Toyota "packs them in", is this true? I guess shipping is "packed" into the invoice? This is the invoice price with no options. I thought the holdback was refunded to the dealer so why am I going to pay it? Are these charges normal? Thanks for the time, I would like to buy the truck until this came up. These information is from Phoenix AZ.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    All those items are indeed part of the factory invoice. Edmund's and KBB include all those items in their invoice prices too (they're just not itemized), minus the TDA since it varies by region.

    Everybody pays freight 'aka' destination.

    Yes, the holdback (2% of base msrp) does get refunded to the dealer at a later date, as long as the original dealer sells the vehicle and does not trade for it with another dealer. Wholesale financial reserve (wfr) equates to 1/2 of the holdback (1% of base msrp). This is used to cover interest on current inventory. TDA is not refunded, nor is it a profit item. It's unfortunate that these items (fees) are itemized as it leads the consumer to believe he/she is being taken advantage of.

    I just had this discussion with another member very recently. The bottom line is that they (the dealer) are simply quoting you invoice on what they were billed from the factory. Those are not dealer added fees - they're costs passed from the factory to the dealer, which in-turn, are passed onto you. This is typical of many retail products; costs such as advertisng and marketing are built in, the consumer just typically doesn't see an invoice, unlike in the car biz where the 411 is at your fingertips.

    In essence, it really doesn't matter what the dealer paid for his product, what matters is what the market thinks is a fair price. The collective pricing from educated buyers will get you a great price. Check your weekly auto ads or skim the net to see what type of pricing is available in your area.

    Like I've said many times before though, Invoice is strictly used as a guideline to compare deals between dealers. Invoice is NOT cost - there is much more involved to a dealer's cost then simply what a consumer sees on his computer screen.

    With that said though, Invoice is a good starting point, but ultimately, supply and demand, time of the month, sales goals, etc. will all be the determining factor(s) at which price a dealer decides to sell his vehicle. You as a consumer have the right to offer any price you want, but the dealer also reserves the right to say no... or yes.

    The last few posts describe the fees in great detail.

    My advice: offer $1000 or maybe even $1500 below invoice and tell him you're ready to buy now. By offering that price, if you want to look at it from a "fees" perspective, you're basically buying the vehicle at invoice and subtracting out the holdback and wfr. There's two days left in this month, so if he won't do it now, he certainly won't do it the first 3.5 weeks of May. The only thing that may change in May are the rebates. They certainly won't go lower, but it's always a gamble to see if they'll go higher. Won't know 'til May 2.

    Good Luck!
  • mrvmanmrvman Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the reply, The dealer is adding the holdback and TDA on top of the Invoice. The dealer invoice price is right on with Edmund's, than they added the holdback and TDA. I thought you wrote that they were part of the invoice? You are right, it is about "out the door" that counts. If the holdback and TDA are part of the invoice than Edmunds might want to consider raising thier invoice pricing. I am going to offer $1,500 under invoice, but with or with out the Holdback and TDA? On just the Edmunds invoice? They are adding $1,481 on top of Edmunds invoice. Sorry if I repeat myself but this is serious money for a truck and I have not seen "holdback and TDA" put on top of the invoice before. I am going to offer as soon as have your information. Thanks.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    I think you misunderstood what I said - Most manufacturer's have a holback of some percentage (usually 1-3%). Toyota's is broken down into 2 catergories: holdback and wholesale financial reserve. These 2 items account for 3% of the base msrp. On a hard-copy invoice from the manufacturer, these fees are built into the total invoice along with all the options but are not itemized, but if you sat across from the fleet manager in a dealership, his computerized invoice known as a vehicle inquiry report breaks up the fees - so, yes, in essence, the manufacturer charged the dealer a higher price upfront for the vehicle and therefore the dealer likes to treat it as an expense, rather than a profit item.

    If you build a truck via this site (Edmunds) exactly per your specs, your total invoice after all options will essentially match the dealer's minus the TDA. Again, there's a regional variance in cost on that item. Regardless, the total invoice price you see on Edmunds INCLUDES the dealer's holdback and wfr. It's just not itemized, but trust me, it's built in.

    If you say the TDA is $700, then the invoice you see on Edmunds (given you built an identical vehicle) should be $700 less than the dealer's. Holdback, wfr, destination, and tda are ALL built into the invoice, but the only one edmunds doesn't account for is the tda.

    I realize I repeated this several times, but I want you to understand that they are not charging you those fees above and beyond the invoice after the fact - they're already included. When I say offer $1000 below invoice, I mean $1000 below the dealer's factory invoice (which includes the tda).

    Here's what the bottom portion of the dealer's computerized invoice will look like. For illustrative purposes, I picked a random Tundra, but you can see that it's total invoice is $34871. Offering $1000 below invoice would mean a selling price of $33871 on a vehicle that retails for $38502. That would be a discount of $4631, then if there is a $3000 rebate, your "net" savings would be $7631. That's a damn good deal on a Tundra!

    Total Accessories ...........................: $ 2107.00 $ 1468.50
    Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00
    TDA .........................................: $ 391.00
    Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00
    Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 714.00
    Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 357.00
    --------- ---------
    Total .......................................: Invoice:$ 34871.50 MSRP: $ 38502.00
  • closenoughclosenough Member Posts: 31
    ocautoseeker,

    Great information. Still a bit confusing though. It all clicked when I got the vehicle inventory sheet you spoke of and finally understood what you said about them carrying these as "expenses". For me the confusion is based on the phrase "included" Does that mean it has already been netted out or not. Bottom line is that the Edmunds invoice prices includes expenses for holdback and WFR as you stated.

    Anyway my proposed vehicle is a loaded (package G) CM Limited 5.7 4x4 MSRP of $48,371, invoice of $43,793 which includes expense items for TDA (500) and the holdbacks (841 plus 420). A few dealers I spoke to easily met the 43,793 number but balk once I offer into the holdback. How far can I go? I'd like to pay 42,532. I can be patient but I'd like some reassurance.

    All this is before the 0% plus 1k.

    Interesting to see that the holdbacks on the toyota invoice are calculated only on the vehicle base for that model and not on the total MSRP. For instance the vehicle mentioned above 2% holdback of 821 is based on the model base MSRP of 42,070 not on the specific vehicle MSRP of 47,686 (no destination.)

    Thanks,

    Closenough
  • katzatkatzat Member Posts: 45
    I ordered a Tundra back in December that I believe will be delivered within the next week or so. Edmunds does not yet indicate a factory to buyer rebate for May. In April, it was $3,000. Does anyone have any information regarding a May rebate? Have sales taken off so much that Toyota has dropped the invoice? Do they wait a while each month to announce the rebates? If a rebate will come out later in the month or next month, I may be forced to leave my truck on the lot until it is announced. Help.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Dealer's are alway gonna' get snippy when you hint at the idea of dipping into their holdback. However, for reassurance, the Edmund's invoice you negotiated is a great price.

    Remember, the salesman (in most cases) doesn't know the "dead cost" of any vehicle, all he knows is the difference between MSRP and Invoice. Plus, most do not get paid on holdback even though it represents a profit, so by offering them invoice - minus holdback, wfr and tda, they look at the deal as a "no profit" deal - and it very well may be. The consumer will never know.

    If you're set on that price of $42,532, tell them that you're ready to buy and that is your offer. Be polite, but firm. If they continue to balk, you know that they are unwilling to sell you the vehicle at that price - unfortunately that's their right. If this were to be the case, offer to meet them half way between your offer and the edmund's invoice they were willing to sell for.

    Good luck!
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    The site can be a bit slow on updating rebates/incentives.

    Go to buyatoyota.com for recent rebates/incentives based on your zip code.

    In SoCal, the rebate just went to $4000 or 0% for 60 months.
  • eltipoeltipo Member Posts: 21
    This past Saturday I purchased on '07 Limited Double Cab 4x2, TRD package in Radiant Red (North Florida). It was a demo with 2000 miles. I got the price down about $3500 from invoice. I don't think that is terribly good, but I was able to get $3000 rebate PLUS 0% for 60mos which I could not pass up.

    I used the equity in my Jeep Wranlger and walked away with no money out of pocket. I probably could have worked a better deal, but in the end I am satisfied with my purchase.

    Looking forward to a long life for my new truck.
  • katzatkatzat Member Posts: 45
    Thanks for the intel. Turns out that yesterday, the truck arrived. It was ordered in late December and arrived on May 7. Just over 5 months, but I expected it as I had ordered a Sequoia back in 2004 and it took about 5 months to arrive that time as well.

    Turns out that I did find, through the dealer's site, that the incentives for the truck in my area are $3,000 OR $1,000 and 0% for 60 mo. The wife and I have committed to never finance a vehicle, but I considered that on roughly $44,000 (including the absorbative IL sales tax and vehicle licensing charges), I could not afford not to use their money for this purchase. Edmunds Rebate or Low Finance calculator/decision assistor, was a real help with this ( http://www.edmunds.com/apps/calc/CalculatorController ) . I used my mortgage rate (because I have a mortgage) less the benefit of tax deductability as the base rate on my money if I financed the deal.

    Turns out that the $2,000 difference in the rebate makes buying the truck with cash only viable if my cost of financing is less than 2% or the amount financed is less than $20,000. All of this surprised me, as in the past, I have always found that the incentive offers made the decision more difficult -- the offers were closer to a wash or actually incentised the buyer to pay cash if he could. The current rebate/financing offers on the Tundra don't appear to have been calculated based on the typical cost of the truck.

    Nevertheless, we bought the truck for $800 over invoice. I had another offer from a dealership that we had dealt with in the past for straight invoice, but the girl that was assigned to assist me with the order (take the order) could never seem to get it correct. The guy that I finally dealt with took the order, took a credit card over the phone for the $200 to secure the deal, and I never spoke to him again until the truck was delivered. We were in the dealersip for an hour signing the paperwork (with two 7 year olds) and home in time for bed.

    I documented this process in 2004 when I bought the Sequoia, but when I read on these forums about the dickering and trouble with the dealerships when dealing with salesmen on the sales floor, it makes me cringe. I cannot recommend enough the value of the Edmunds article "Confessions of a Car Salesman" ( http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html ). The point is that there are dealerships that recognize that there are folks out there that buy vehicles based on other than emotional reasons (Specificaitons, comfort, previous experience with reliability, etc.) and have setup a sales channel for them. It is usually called the fleet or internet sales channel. You send these guys an email (directly from Edmunds.com if you wish) and they give you a quote. It is usually their lowest price (invoice or some price referenced against invoice). You accept it, order the vehicle, put a couple hundred down on a credit card over the phone, and they call you when the vehicle arrives. You print out your Edmunds price report with all of the invoice numbers, understand the advertising fee that is part of the cost but not on the Edmunds report, and take it with you when you pick up the vehicle. When you look at the cost on the dealer's price sheet, you simply compare it to your Edmunds report and ask questions. My experience is that these guys explain or make adjustments per your agreement and you are out of the dealership with the car you ordered in record time with absolutely no crap -- your agreement was based on the invoice after all, no discussion regarding MSRP or dealer installed options or adders.

    I am happy after last night's experience. For those of you in the Chicagoland area, the dealership I dealt with was David Bruce Toyota in Bourbonais. Continental Toyota in Countryside also has a fleet/internet sales channel that works well, but I have found that unless you initiate the transaction through the internet/fleet channel, you wind up having to deal with a sales floor salesman. The deal gets complicated with the typical crap (you may have to insult the salesman by asking to speak to the internet/fleet sales manager).

    Thanks again Edmunds.
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    ok I have been reading and trying to remember as much as I can before making my deal. I am getting a '08 Tundra 4x4, CrewMax, SR5, TRD
    running boards
    cloth seats,
    P4 vechicle shield package
    Skid Plate enhancment
    Carpet mats
    for $31,989.65 before TT&L. but does include the $4000 off
    So be honest did I do okay or not really? It won't be here until the 20th so still time to change my mind if I choose to.

    What got me was the TT&L. He figured them for me and that came to $7264.50 extra. I have asked for him to email me a break down on this cost. But man that seems a little high. Is it just me or what?

    By the way I live in Lafourche Parish , Louisiana.

    Any help and advice is very welcomed. Thank you.
  • sbell4sbell4 Member Posts: 446
    [ ] true story
    [X] leaving out a lot of details
    [X] makes deal and then asks if it is a "good deal"
    [ ] tax and fees is usually 20% of the cost of the vehicle
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    Trying not to get the screws put to me on this one. Hence why i have asked for an accountability of where these fees are coming from. taxes $3000 at the most. so where is the rest coming from? I will find out and if it is what I think it is, tacking stuff on the rear they can keep it. No way am I going to negotiate for a good deal only to haev them try to slip it to me in the backside.

    As I said truck isn't in yet. Only thing that was done was agreed upon a price and put down $300 to hold it for me. Thought I was doing great till he mentioned the total with TT&L. what gives?
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    correction to above agreed upon price is $31689.65.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    What's the total MSRP of the vehicle? What is you sales tax rate? Has to be a typo!?!?
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    TotalcMSRP $38,486, 8.5% tax rate. Sure as heck hopeing it's a typo.
  • katzatkatzat Member Posts: 45
    I live in Illinois where we have a pretty stiff sales tax and licensing charges, and my TTL was less than $3,000.

    You should look at the new car pricing on this site and select the base model and options you want. You should be able to get the truck for Invoice. Just remember that there will be some additional charge on the dealer's invoice usually called the advertising fee. For my truck on Wednesday in IL, that was something like $550.

    Once you have the invoice amount, the incentives come off of that. Its majic.

    I couldn't help but notice what appears to be non-standard options in your list. You should consider if you really want these. If the salesman squawks, I would suspect you are being jaked. You may want to consider pricing the vehicle out as I describe above and request Internet quotes. This bypasses the floor salesman. I wouldn't do it any other way.
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    he had made a typo when sending me the email. We agreed on $31,689.50 before TT&L. With TT&L came out to $34,604.26. I feel a lot better now. Now just to wait until the 20th and pick up my new toy and burn some gas.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    I figured as such...

    Congrats on the new truck!
  • outlawsixoutlawsix Member Posts: 8
    Thank you Sir. And I must say a big thank you to you as well. Now I probably didn't get as good a deal as I could have. But me not being a natural born haggler I was behind the eightball already. But due to reading your input on here I feel I did pretty darn well.

    Not sure where you are located but if nearby I would buy you a cup of coffee. Thank you again for all of your help to myself and others here.
  • ocautoseekerocautoseeker Member Posts: 425
    Happy I could help!

    Getting a good deal is subjective - you feel good about your purchase and that's all that really matters!
  • closenoughclosenough Member Posts: 31
    My deal is complete. I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed here. The knowledge I picked up was invaluable in formulating a competitive, if not aggressive price.

    My deal was for a CM Limited 5.7 4wd MSRP about 48.4, agree upd price of 43.2 before the rebate, about 600 below invoice.

    Email me if you need any details.

    Thanks.
  • 08tundrapaul08tundrapaul Member Posts: 2
    Dealer cost on that truck, with front navigation and rear dvd entertainment system, tow package, TRD Off Road Package, and 20" Alloys is just under 40k after the rebate.
  • closenoughclosenough Member Posts: 31
    TundraPaul,

    I'm not quite sure what your point was, your definition, or where you found your numbers. My terms/numbers are easily verifiable.

    I don't know what the term "dealer cost" means, I believe only the dealer knows that. I'll stick with the ones we can verify, MSRP and Invoice. These numbers can be verified here on this website or on a dealer inventory sheet (just ask.)

    In my case the MSRP of 48,371 has an invoice price of 43,793 including expense items for TDA, Holdback, and WFR.
  • 08tundrapaul08tundrapaul Member Posts: 2
    I posted that to basically confirm you got a pretty good deal. Dealer costs(how much the dealer pays for the truck) are available to USAA members through their car buying service on their website.
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