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Hybrids in the News
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Comments
So will just about any car that costs 20K.
Hybrids make sense for people who don't want to do the math or want to make a statement and are not looking at a Prius. None of the hybrids besides the Prius make sense financially. Since the hype over hybrids won't die anytime soon, there's no incentive for the makers to lower the price to reflect any saving they are realizing from advances in manufacturing and volume. The hybrids makers have to milk this hype for all its worth - they have lots of money invested in this thing.
Sure you can start saving money on gas right now buying an HAH over a V6 Accord, but the extra money one shelled out for the HAH will not be recouped within the likely life of the car with the first owner.
It will be very telling how Toyota makes the hybrid Camry - do they go the HAH route for performance and high price - or the economy and lower price differential route with a 4 cyl LE. That's another slight problem with adding a hybrid to something like a 4cyl Camry - the regular gas LE already gets 35MPG on the highway - adding hybrid to that will not make that much of % diff.
And you come to this conclusion how?
Cars don't make any financial sense to begin with.
I guess I should have elaborated to say that they don't make sense over a similarly equiped gas version of the same car. Do the math on any hybrid for which there's an equivalent regular gas model and you will see that none of them recoup the extra up front extra cost with gas milage savings over the tyical ownership period.
CVT
VSC
ABS
Hatch versatility
Xenons
Easily gets 45MPG
Side airbags
curtain airbags
Heated mirrors
Bluetooth
Navigation
built in garage/estate door opener
auto dimming rear view mirror
etc...etc...
Pick one please... or else don't make suppositions which make no sense.
True that is why the current Toyota hybrid SUVs are not bargain priced. And Toyota is doing a great job in exploiting the popularity of their hybrids.
But tomorrow is another day and Toyota will begin losing its hybrid market share to competitors. Hyundai will be introducing a 15k hybrid. Mitsubushi is going a step further and introducing a electrical Colt with no gas engine.
And let us not forget Honda! As long as there is competition==savings will be passed on to consumers.
Let us just hope that Toyota does not monopolize the hybrid market. In that case you are correct and hybrids will be just expensive toys without economic justification as a purchase.(with the exception of the Prius)
Marysville , OH - At its factory here today, Honda has started producing the newly redesigned Accord. Besides the usual V6 models, Honda is introducing 3 drivetrain variants of the popular 4 cyl models. The new 2.4L direct injection gasoline model follows in the footsteps of the venerable K24 engine that preceded it, but with increased torque and HP yet better mileage (28/38) and fewer emissions. It will be the first application of direct injection technology at this price point. The MSRP for the 4 cyl LX model will start at $20,295 with a 6 speed manual transmission. The second variant will use a 2.2L CDTi diesel engine available for some time in Europe but modified for the US market to meet tough new EPA emission rules. While this engine pays a slight performance penalty compared to its gas cousin, its EPA ratings for fuel use are rated 38 city and 52 highway - the best fuel mileage for a mid sized sedan. The diesel LX will start at $20, 995 with the same silky smooth 6 speed manual transmission. The third variant is the hybrid version of the old K24 drivetrain. After sales of the V6 Hybrid Accord have fallen below expectations, Honda decided to apply the second generation of its technology to a more mainstream and volume model. The K24 was detuned slightly to provide better mileage while the electric motor provides more low end torque. MSRP for the LX hybrid start at $22,295 with a CVT as the only transmission choice. It's EPA ratings are 45 city and 38 highway. All Honda models meet the new strict SULEV emission standards that came into affect this year. All models should be available at a dealer near you by the official release date of September 15.
Give me some stock tips that will make me rich in 07.
One little problem with the HAH prognostication: no Honda hybrid will have city fuel economy over the highway numbers with Honda's IMA technology. If they adopt a hybrid design similar to what Toyota and Ford are using, then yes, the mpg numbers could be in the ballpark you mentioned.
The other problem with your numbers is I seriously doubt we'll see mpg figures like 38/52 for the Accord CDTi after the engine has been modified to meet US emissions regulations. And if we do, then that will make another part of your vision moot--the part about the hybrid that gets "only" 45/38 and costs more than the CDTi. Who would buy that hybrid when the CDTi is available with better fuel economy at a lower price?
Okay, let's take a look at the Lexus RX400h. The Hybrid RX has V8 like performance. So shouldn't it be compared to like competition?
To say you won't recoup the cost is stupid. When you buy a ML500 over a ML350 for example, are you recouping any cost? How about a Explorer V8 over a V6?
The RX400h does give you more power & faster acceleration. It's obvious that to the people buying the hybrids, they are not expecting to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid powertrain.
Should they be bargain priced? How are they going to price a hybrid Highlander V6 under a regular V6? SUVs are pretty expensive to begin with, the average SUV probably has a transaction price of over $30K, and the Highlander V6 hybrid is, I believe, about $35K. Toyota isn't exactly ripping anyone off. Not just that but the hybrids are only priced about $3.5K to $5K above the regular V6 versions with similar equipment. I don't see how that is *exploiting* the popularity. If they wanted to *exploit* the popularity of the whole Hybrid thing, they could jack up prices of Prius' another few grand and the Highlander and RX400h maybe another $5K.
"But tomorrow is another day and Toyota will begin losing its hybrid market share to competitors. "
Well duh, isn't that inevitable as more hybrids from more manufacturer's come into the marketplace?
"Let us just hope that Toyota does not monopolize the hybrid market. In that case you are correct and hybrids will be just expensive toys without economic justification as a purchase.(with the exception of the Prius) "
You don't have to hope for Toyota not monopolizing the hybrid market. They are doing quite the opposite. If they wanted to have a monopoly, they could have refused to sell license rights to Nissan & Ford. If Toyota does have a future monopoly on Hybrids it will be because some companies like GM, Ford, & DC failed to see the potential of hybrids.
Well, you are mostly right. However, the ULEV CVT gets better city than highway (but not by much):
5-Speed Manual (City/Highway) (ULEV) 46 / 51
CVT (City/Highway) (ULEV) 48 / 47
5-Speed Manual (City/Highway) (AT-PZEV) 45 / 51
CVT (City/Highway) (AT-PZEV) 47 / 48
Woah, Honda jumped Totota again, and will have one of the most popular sedans in the US available as an I4 hybrid by September of this year. I think that is about 1.5 years ahead of the Camry?
Of course, the Honda IMA is simpler to apply to a given car platform than the HSD.
You ought to VERY CAREFULLY RE-READ post #1763 from which you excerpted the quotation in your post #1764.
Oh, got ya. I'm used to people posting real news in this thread, as they are supposed to... is "faking" news releases OK with the moderator? I should have realized that such a thing would have been known in advance from "sneak peaks and such". BLUSH!
Though I still stand my my statement about the IMA being easier to implement on a given platform.
BTW, I'm assuming you mean my post 1774, I don't see a 1764...
Huuhhh??? :confuse: More competitors means inevitable market share loss! Do you really know what you are talking about? If you cant figure out how it may not be inevitable I can provide you with the math in the next post!
are doing quite the opposite. If they wanted to have a monopoly, they could have refused to sell license rights to Nissan & Ford.
A monopoly can license a technology. Monopolizing a technology and licensing that same technology to others are not a contradiction!
Toyota isn't exactly ripping anyone off.
Whether they are or not, the fact is that Toyota hybrid SUVs are a rip off in terms of what it is mainly manufactured for (gas efficiency). As hybrid technology advances and becomes cheaper it becomes a rational purchase in terms of efficiency.
Ofcourse you can say that buying a hybrid Highlander is not only about gas-savings. In that case such hybrids will remain a minor niche!
Let's see. It's obvious GM and DC are working on hybrids on their own at this point in time. By next year we can guesstimate that Toyota will have about a 65%to 75% market share once the Lexus GS450h arrives on scene(for the US that is). Even if Toyota adds a hybrid to just about every car in it's lineup, their market share of hybrids is going to down if and when GM comes out with Hybrids. Not to mention Ford is planning on proliferating hybrids also. Next in the Mercury Mariner, then I believe the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan.
Would that be Gary?
Not me, I already gave kudos to LARSB for the best research. Most of the rest on here is opinion and speculation.
It's obvious that to the people buying the hybrids, they are not expecting to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid powertrain.
That's because they don't bother to do the math and are buying into the hybrid hype.
Once again, hybrids that have gas equivalents, do not make sense economically for the main reason they are in existance - gas mileage gains. If one is buying a hybrid for performance gains, prestige, statement, better packaging, lower emissions, etc. then no amount financial analysis makes sense cause all of those are subjective matters.
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We have beaten this horse for a couple years. Those that purchase hybrids are not worried about economics, it is the "Green" feeling they get. That and they have too much green and don't know what else to do with it. Same as the person that buys a Porsche or any other luxury car, it goes beyond economics to emotional buying. A case for a hybrid may be made if you drive a lot of miles. Then the only factor to consider is longevity. Until hybrids have 10-15 years of relatively trouble free service we will not know if they are good for the long haul. I guess we keep debating their place in the scheme of things for several more years.
Anyone have some hybrid news?
Kudos for the Koreans---upcominig Hyundai hybrid, Samsung beating Sony and now #1 in embryo stem cell research (dont mean to provoke a political storm).
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000267038867/
Any relation to Cho at Toyota?
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/03/30/spark.air.car/index.html
But I think there are probably more Chos over there as there are Smith/Jones over here!
"At the 40mpg.org Web site, consumers can make their picks for three of the 10 best-selling vehicles in America with no publicly announced plans (as of May 15, 2005) to introduce hybrid models. 40mpg.org encourages higher fuel-efficiency standards for U.S. vehicles and is a Web-based campaign organized by the Results for America arm of the nonprofit and nonpartisan Civil Society Institute (CSI).
The 10 best-selling vehicles with no publicly announced hybrid plans are (in order of sales): Ford F-Series pick-ups; Toyota Corolla; Chevy Impala; Ford Explorer; Ford Taurus; Chevy Trailblazer; Jeep Grand Cherokee; Ford Focus; Chrysler Town&Country; and the Ford Econoline. "
http://www.ems.org/nws/2005/05/26/news_sending_det
Not knowing what you paid for your Prius I will give you the local So. CA price. A bare bones 2005 Prius with package #1 has a TMV of $22,976 before tax & License. I can buy the basic 4 cylinder Camry at the same dealership for $18,654 with the airbags comparable to the package #1. That is a $4322 difference. The average Prius is getting combined 48 MPG, many would argue that is a high number. The Camry combined is 28 MPG. Figuring 15k miles per year that is an additional 223 gallons of gas for the Camry or about $535 per year saved on gas. That is an 8 year break even over a bigger better handling car. If you want more luxury the Camry XLE with leather and moonroof is going for $22,341 still less than the base Prius. If it is not for the Green feeling, what is it? I have tried to see the economics in the Prius II and cannot find them. I think most people look at it as I do. Other than on this hybrid board. For the Utopian feeling that those in love with the idea of hybrids to ever become reality, they will have to become economically feasible.
Same goes for Honda. The HCH Selling $400 under MSRP here is still $3063 over the top of the line Civic EX. I include diesel cars in that mix also, anything over Invoice is money down the toilet. Most people don't realize that until they go to sell or trade their vehicle.
My vote is to ECONOMIZE. Of those best selling vehicles that are hybridized the Chevy Silverado comes to mind. The exact same model not hybridized is $5735 less, both with a $4000 rebate. Not only that it is supposed to be a work truck and only comes in the Short Bed version. To make it worse it has the same EPA 18 MPG combined mileage. I wonder how many they have sold? You can blame it on GM if you like. I blame it on the technology. Not enough gain for the cost of the extra PARTS. I want a 40 MPG + vehicle as much as anyone. Not to the extent it costs more money than can be saved on fuel.
GM's "mildbrid" trucks are really a joke as a "hybrid." They do not propel the truck, they merely store battery power and use it to perform an AutoStop function at red lights. That's such a minor hybridization it can hardly be called hybridization at all. But even so, it increases the MPG of the truck by 6%, which is nothing to sneeze at - that's 6% better than ZERO, is it not?
The technology has been shown to be effective and it works. The car makers who do not have hybrids are the only ones slowing down this wagon - they need to get crackin on more hybrids and meet the demands of buyers, which are turning more and more to smaller and more fuel efficient SUVs, CUVs, and smaller cars.
For example. Our 1990 LS400 has 83,000 on it. We use it mostly for highway trips and it gets 27 MPG. Say were were to buy one of the new Lexus GS450h cars for only $5000 more than the ICE only version. If it gets 37 MPG on the highway which is not likely. It would take us 29 years to recoup that $5000 difference.
"Call me a conspiracy theorist. Go ahead, I can take it. Now that we have that out of the way, here's what I'm thinking: Toyota (NYSE: TM) wants to buy GM (NYSE: GM). Or maybe Ford (NYSE: F). But more likely GM."
http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2005/mft05060910.htm
larsb, "Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids" #193, 26 May 2005 1:34 pm
Please refer to the article below:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-24-hybrids_x.htm?csp=N009
No CVT
Pricier too
Does it have NAV and HIDs?
No bluetooth
No Voice recognition
Me too styling
No thanks!
Good luck with your Prius Molikai
No CVT? No thanks give me manual please!
NAV/HID/Bluetooth/voice recognition-----Give me a gem of an engine with a stick and you can keep your distracting gizmos. It's the thrill of driving I seek not a video archade!
Me too styling? How else should a wagon look other than square(Mazda or any wagon)
Thanks but no thanks these are not what I call good reasons for a Prius!
Reasons for a Prius: It is a technological gem with its hybrid system and fuel savings---that in itself is good enough for me! Prius is the only hybrid that has my interest!
A trip to the supermarket
Walking back to your car with your hands full
Opening the door with your pinky without searching for your keyfob.... PRICELESS!!!
Go hybrid!! I love my Prius!!