Hybrids in the News

gagrice · June 2005

LEIGH SALES: Americans who are abandoning SUVs aren't necessarily going for environmentally friendly options, although the market for hybrid cars is growing. Hybrids run on a mixture of petrol and electricity. Toyota's doing the best in hybrid sales and expects to sell around 100,000 in the US this year.

But they're still only a tiny part of the American automotive market. Of 17 million cars new cars sold in the US last year, only 200,000 were hybrids.

According to Art Spinella, there's currently only limited room for expansion.

ART SPINELLA: Most consumers say that they're not interested in spending any more than $500 or $1,000 for a hybrid, yet most hybrids cost anywhere up to $5,000 or $6,000 more than their gasoline powered counterpart. For the most part, consumers in the United States are easily more motivated by price consideration than they are by environmental consideration, yes.

LEIGH SALES: Does that mean there's a lesson for environmental lobby groups, and you know, has there been a failure in the way that they've tried to market products as being environmentally friendly, do they need to actually try to come up with more innovative ways to appeal to people?

ART SPINELLA: It has to be something more than just saying it's good for the planet. In this country that really is not a message that causes people to make an acquisition or a purchase.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1391020.htm

gagrice · June 2005

That was the quote from the fellow that bought my Suburban for his lady. I did not say that nor did I try to intimate it.

falconone · June 2005

You should have qualified that in your post.

gagrice · June 2005

Sorry for the confusion, I was just happy to sell my Suburban so I can get an old truck. Something to throw trash in and haul compost.

gagrice · June 2005

I guess if you cannot sell Chevy's, sell what you can...

The council, piggybacking the purchase onto a Florida state contract, is buying the four 2005 Toyota Prius vehicles for $86,060 from Alan Jay Chevrolet in Sebring. The cars will be used to transport assistant chiefs and captains.

http://www.bocanews.com/index.php?src=news&category=Local%20News&prid=10727

falconone · June 2005

Gary..wasn't your Suburban old? If you want to haul that kinda of stuff, do what I do. Rent it from Home Depot. It's cheaper than having to maintain a vehicle you won't use too often. That's why I got rid of my truck. If I need one, I go to Home Depot or borrow my friend's. Probably a couple of times a year.

gagrice · June 2005

My Suburban was a 1999 with only 49k miles on it. We have 5 acres of mostly citrus. I am always hauling loads of compost or gravel in my trailer. It would be easier with an old 3/4 ton truck. I am looking for a clean early 1990s Ford or Chevy. I won't pay over $5k for one. Just a beater that I can pull my trailer with. It will get 3-4k miles a year put on it.

markdel · June 2005

Very nice article, I am glad to see government paying attention. However, that being said (as per K. Curic..), I am not so sure that the Prius is the FE leader... :confuse:

larsb · June 2005

Another award for the Prius engine, and the Insight too:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/international_e.html

molokai · June 2005

Interesting... I didn't know that Toyota built that many diesel engines. I wonder why they don't sell them here? I bet their FE is pretty good!!

larsb · June 2005

A grand idea whose time has come. I had to teach myself and research it on my own time - it would be nice for Honda to have taught me how:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0506/15/G01-215671.htm

larsb · June 2005

Nice article, good emissions info about plug-in hybrids:

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002891.html

gagrice · June 2005

That is a good idea. I think that was a Ford slogan at one time. "A Better Idea"

molokai · June 2005

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050615/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices

This obviously indirectly effects the hybrid market. I was hoping prices continued to drop. What really annoys me is that speculation is a major component of the higher prices.

mirth · June 2005

A grand idea whose time has come.

Autoextremist.com's take on it:

http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml

Also check out their rant on Toyota.

larsb · June 2005

the Rant on the Ford driver education thing is off base.

It's not the EPA test at fault and not the technology at fault when it comes to lower MPG numbers. It's driver education. I can prove it.

My first Hybrid tank: 38.4 MPG
My best Hybrid Tank: 56.00 MPG

Did the EPA test change? Nope.

Did the car change? Nope.

Did my driving style change? Yep.

Like any OTHER TOOL in the world, you have to learn how to use it. People get better at using tools the MORE they use them.

maxhonda99 · June 2005

So, how did you change your driving style to improve gas mileage that drastically?

molokai · June 2005

He drives with open toed sandals which give better control of the accelerator. I hear that the American made ones really give precise control.

I think the examples of improving mileage in a hybrid translate to every type of vehicle. One thing that works well in the Prius is to accelerate briskly and then let off on the gas completely and feather the throttle. It appears the atkinson cycle type engines are at their peak efficiency at higher rpms. With the Honda hybrids I am not sure what techniques are employed. Perhaps Larsb will enlighten us.

larsb · June 2005

It's a combination of many things.

Much education on my part. Edmunds user tips, other website user groups. Learning to use the tools on the dash of my hybrid to max out MPG by learning what the best speeds and gears work best for max MPG.

For example, there is a big difference in being in 4th gear at 34 MPH and in 5th gear at 34 MPH. Sometimes as much as 20 miles per gallon difference, depending on the current operating temp of the engine.

If you care enough to ATTEMPT to learn how to drive more fuel efficiently, it can be done. If you are not willing to change your driving style and eliminate "fuel wasting" bad habits, then a hybrid is not for you.

P.S. Molokai is correct in that "hypermiling techniques" DO translate to non-hybrid cars. Hybrid cars have an advantage, however, over most non-hybrids: the dash instruments which help you learn how to manage the MPG are there, whereas in most non-hybrids it is more of a "guessing game." And I do not USUALLY drive with open toed sandals....

stevedebi · June 2005

And let's not forget that you are driving a small car designed for fuel efficiency. The larger, heavier, higher-frontal area HH and RX400 will increase some, but nowhere near as far, as a small fuel efficient sedan.

I think some people are considering the Hybrid SUVs as an economy vehicle. Not so, they are just too big and heavy. I suspect this is why lexus and toyota went with more performance than economy in their implementations.

falconone · June 2005

I think the Lexus RH that weighs nearly 2 tons does pretty well in the mileage department. I also think the HAH does well for the level of performance it has. Just imagine, the Lexus RH gets better mileage than a Hyundai Elantra. Pretty cool!!!

dewey · June 2005

Below is a good article about Takeshisa Yaegashi known as the father of the hybrid.

If not accessible by link, the article is in this week's Businessweek.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_25/b3938027.htm

larsb · June 2005

MB getting serious with Hybrid M-Class:

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Mercedes/concept/2005-mercedes-benz-m-class-hybrid-conce- pt/1272/

gagrice · June 2005

They have had the technology for a long time. They just did not think people would take the hit they are taking to get a cleaner burning car. Chrysler scrapped their hybrid because they felt that $28,500 was way more than anyone would pay for a 5 passenger car that only got 72 MPG. With people paying $50k plus for a hybrid car that they can buy for $40k in the non-hybrid form, it is a wide open playing field.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motor_sports/1268751.html?page=1&c=y

larsb · June 2005

They are kicking themselves now I bet. Why can't they round up all the old parts and start making that car right now? It would compete against the Accord Hybrid and have a chance at beating it badly, I would guess.

A 5 passenger car at 72 MPG, are you freakin' kidding me? Those things would sell about 7500 a month in today's market !!!

dewey · June 2005

Gagrice,

I am having difficulty finding the 72MPG figure in that linked Popularmechanics article?

That figure sounds a bit too good to be true when you compare it to the current hybrid competition! Especially for a vehicle the size of a Chrysler ESX3. I dont think DC scrapped this car because no one would pay 28.5k for a 5 passenger car. I think it is more likely that DC had to scrap this car because they were unable to develop such an ambitious vehicle.

DC is years behind Toyota in terms of hybrid technology and would have a helluva time even achieving the mileage of a Prius(unless MB develops a hybrid 2 seater Smart Car).

In fact I am a bit more excited about the MB M320 Diesel than a M SUV hybrid . A hybrid MB would involve Ferrari-like maintenance costs!

stevedebi · June 2005

Anybody notice that this was a diesel electric hybrid? Also, it uses the main battery to power all subsystems, which may mean that they had to use a different kind of guages, power door locks, etc.

Anyway, with the current diesel restrictions, I'm not sure we will see this one...

gagrice · June 2005

That was the title of the Pop Mechanics article. Here is a year by year run down on the project. It was a real car and back then would have easily passed even CARB regs for diesel cars. Chrysler execs did not believe they could sell the car with the $7500 premium. I am with you on the Mercedes new V6 320 CDI. Not sure which vehicle I want yet. I want to see the new "R" class before I decide.

http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html

PS
I don't think Toyota is that far ahead except in sales.

molokai · June 2005

Hopefully Mercedes reliability will return to the way it was a decade ago. Right now they are admitting that their quality is slipping. Not a good time to buy a hybrid from a company that can't even build reliable gas vehicles.

dewey · June 2005

Three new cd320 diesels were tested quite rigorously for hundreds of thousands of miles at some ridiculously high speed. (linked article from a previous post)

Reliability should not be an issue with these diesels!

dewey · June 2005

Three new cd320 diesels were tested quite rigorously for hundreds of thousands of miles at some ridiculously high speed. (linked article from a previous post)

Reliability should not be an issue with these diesels!

A hybrid MB is another matter :confuse:

maxhonda99 · June 2005

It's not the engines that Mercedes is having problems with on current Mercedes-Benz's. It is everything else except the engine and tranny that they are having problems with. Namely COMAND systems, electronics, and the excess gadgetry that the cars have. The engines & transmissions perform just fine.

falconone · June 2005

I've been reading about problems with the Liberty diesels but I am not sure if those engines are from MB or outsourced. Hopefully they'll get back to their glory. I had a 2001 MB C320 and never had engine problems, but suspension issues, and some electrical issues.

dewey · June 2005

I am not into high tech gizmos for cars!

If I bought a MB I would buy a base model with no gadgets. This would rule out all the problems you mentioned above.

In fact I drove my BMW 3 series for almost 7 years without any major maintenance issues. Why? Because I drive a base model with no electronic options whatsoever : 99 323BMWi.

dewey · June 2005

Good New York Times article:

As mentioned in the article, I would love to see a plug in Prius available from Toyota itself.

Warning: If some of you are GM apologists this article may offend:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/opinion/17friedman.html?hp

mirth · June 2005

Well, that guy certainly gulped down the Toyota Kool-Aid by the gallon:

Because Toyota has pioneered the very hybrid engine technology that can help rescue not only our economy from its oil addiction (how about 500 miles per gallon of gasoline?), but also our foreign policy from dependence on Middle Eastern oil autocrats.

Yeah right. Hybrids are not going to save us from oil dependancy. We have a nice spot open here in Reality if this guy ever wants to join us. Until then, I hope he has fun searching for the Gas Pill technology that the Evil Oil Companies suppressed years ago...

gagrice · June 2005

We have a nice spot open here in Reality if this guy ever wants to join us.

What did you expect it is the NY Times? Hardly a bastion of truthful journalism.

dewey · June 2005

"Hybrids are not going to save us from oil dependancy"

Welcome to Fantasy Land where the following view exists:

If a majority of vehicles are plug in hybrids then oil dependance will be reduced . This will be positive not only for the USA but for rest of the globe.

So please enlighten me with Reality and tell me how oil dependance will not be reduced by a majority of plug-in hybrids :confuse:

dewey · June 2005

"Hardly a bastion of truthful journalism."

All forms of journalism involves some bias

Please inform me where I can find Journalism that is 100% unbiased with truth other than what used to be the Soviet newspaper called Pravda.

Kirstie_H · June 2005

OK, let's not veer too far off course here.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

dewey · June 2005

OK, let us forget a debate about journalism! Let us focus on just one question:

How will oil dependance not be reduced if the majority of vehicles worldwide are plug-in hybrids?

The article I linked above answers the question quite nicely.

If anyone disagree with Friedman's opinion---I would like to know why?

gagrice · June 2005

Personally the plugin in hybrid is the only logical hybrid for my needs. However the energy still has to come from somewhere. Our electrical grid would be hard pressed to handle enough cars to make any significant reduction in fossil fuel use. It seems the hybrids are going to encourage people to drive more than they would if the cost of fuel was a limiting factor. The original hybrids were targeting 80 MPG. That is far cry from the 3 hybrids that get around 50 MPG with the proper driving skills. Plugin Prius could get 100+ MPG depending on your driving needs. There the cost of manufacturing jumps to the heavens. IF they can ever get the cost of a BIG battery down below a couple thousand dollars the plugin option will be feasible. I thought that a better way to save oil was to encourage people to give up their SUVs and PU trucks. Seems the latest hybrids are all saying it is OK to have a big honkin SUV because we just cut the fuel usage a few percentage points. I don't think without the use of nuclear energy you can cut the fossil fuel usage more than fractionally with the plugin Hybrids.

sinepman · June 2005

I think you have awakened a sleeping giant!!!!

Kirstie_H · June 2005

That's really enough. We don't need to dredge up an argument that I deleted the first time. Guess what's going to happen to it this time?

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

mirth · June 2005

So please enlighten me with Reality and tell me how oil dependance will not be reduced by a majority of plug-in hybrids

My point was that I don't believe we will ever have a majority of hybrids - plug-ins or otherwise - so the entire article becomes useless fantasy.

IMHO, of course.

molokai · June 2005

There will never be enough penetration in the hybrid market to make a dent. Only the smart people who have embraced this technology will benefit, as their fuel costs will be much, much less.

PF_Flyer · June 2005

You guys are off into trying to prove something to each other again, and it's not likely that you're ever going to succeed. So let's stick to discussing the news about hybrids OK??

stevedebi · June 2005

"There will never be enough penetration in the hybrid market to make a dent."

Eventually, something has to replace oil. People argue about when we will run out of fossil fuels (or rather, when it will cease to be economically viable to use them), but most people think they are a finite resource. There are some exceptions, scientists who think that oil is being continuously created inside the earth, but most scientists agree the source was those big, fat dinasoars that died and turned into oil.

Unfortunately, if this statement (about hybrids, not big, fat dinasoars) is found to be true, hybrids will not be here to stay. They need more economies of scale in order to bring the costs down. Low Sulfur fuel for diesels is right around the corner (yielding MPG similar to hybrids), and hydrogen as a fuel isn't much further away.

But it will not be all a loss: I have no doubts that some of the electrical knowledge gained with the hybrids will be carried over into the pure electric propulsion of the fuel cell vehicle, when the infrastructure to support them is available and the kinks in the technology have been worked out.

dewey · June 2005

Hopefully technology progresses to the point where plug in hybrids become afforably feasible for the majority. I guess today it is an expensive option, but tomorrow who knows?

dewey · June 2005

My point was that I don't believe we will ever have a majority of hybrids - plug-ins or otherwise -

Today you are correct. Supply and demand pricing pressures are the best way to persuade the majority. There may be a point when only Hollywood celebrities can afford driving gasoline cars--I yearn for the day when gas cars become a rare status symbol and plug in hybrids becomes so average and passe.

Hybrids in the News

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