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Hybrids in the News
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That's not the only problem for FCVs. An inexpensive replacement for platinum, the catalyst to change hydrogen to electricity in the fuel cell, is also required to bring the cost down to commercial levels (Ballard declines to say what its fuel cell actually costs, but Honda's FCX which uses a fuel cell of its own manufacture is reported to cost one million dollars).
Gary, ALL CARS go up in price over time, year to year, unless the features change. It's called "inflation." And cars which are in "high supply" can be discounted, too, regardless of how many drivetrains they have. Neither of those things are a "hybrid" thing at all, Gary, and after 40 years of buying cars you know that fully well.
Gary Gary Gary.........as far as "discounting the hybrids" - no car dealer or car manufacturer will "discount" a car which because of demand they can barely keep up with the supply. Especially now, when fuel efficient cars are gaining in popularity.
Toyota IS interested in being green, they are just not STUPID when it comes to business decisions, in part what makes them the healthiest and most profitable car company on Planet Earf.
Well, it is a bit difficult to determine what the 2006 HCH kW will be from the review. In any case, the point is that it will move on electric only, unlike the current HCH. Here is part of what they said:
TECHNICAL HIGHLIGHT
The renewal of Honda's Civic lineup extends to the hybrid sedan, which receives several upgrades that enhance performance and fuel economy. Although the Integrated Motor Assist is fundamentally the same as introduced in the Insight two-seater—an electric motor bolted between the car's internal-combustion engine and transmission, providing acceleration assist on demand—the latest version incorporates two new wrinkles. First, the system now allows the Civic to run on battery alone for brief periods (one to five minutes) at low speeds (10 to 30 mph). Since the electric motor is always coupled to the engine, the key to this electric-only operation is a new system that seals the engine's cylinders to reduce pumping losses. Honda also improved the electric motor's output (from 13 to 20 horsepower) and regenerative capability without increasing its size by using flat copper wires, rather than round, for the windings. This allows more wire to fit in the same space, hence the stronger motor.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=36&article_id=10022
Then it would be 20kW. It has been 10kW for years now. And there is plenty of documentation to prove it. In fact, here's an example... http://avt.inel.gov/hev.html ...just follow the fact-sheet links for Civic-Hybrid.
JOHN
I am not the one that said battery prices would come down as more were manufactured. Several on this thread claimed that the reason for the hybrid premium is the cost of the battery which will come down as the hybrids get more popular. It looks as if the opposite is true. The Camry is discounted lower than it was last year at this time and the Prius is more expensive. Making the premium a lot more now than it was a year ago. It looks like right today you can buy a Camry with all the bells and whistles for about $6k less than the Prius.
But does anyone really think that the car companies are going to pass that savings on to the hybrid buyer? Not likely.
It looks as though Toyota executives were students of the PT Barnum school of economics. We all know what that is.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/09/26/lawmakers_eye_bill_to_e- - ncourage_hybrid_alternative_fuel_cars/
Tax breaks, HOV lanes, and free Fast Lane transponders.
"The bill would also require that at least half of the state's fleet of vehicles run on alternative fuels by 2010 -- and establish an "Alternative Fuels Institute" at the University of Massachusetts."
Given the track record on how economical all levels of government seem to be when it comes to spending our money, I'm not sure I'd count on that!
FFV technology is abundant & cheap around here. And there are 170 stations that sell E85. So we know that avenue could be pursued, if needed.
For now, the plan (approved this last spring) is to up the standard in Minnesota from E10 to E20.
JOHN
HUMMER*...38 gal. tank....9 mpg....342 miles to fillup
PRIUS......**12 gal. tank....51mpg....612 miles to fillup
I'd say there's considerable savings with a Prius
*Ever notice nobody releases the milage of this behemuth
** actually 11.9
P.S. I'll bet P.T. Barnum would have bought the first Prius to come his way.
Railroadjames
"Toyota donated four Prius vehicles to Friends of the Smoky Mountains National Park, which immediately turned them over to the park, during a ceremony atop Clingmans Dome on Saturday."
Link to NY Times... if you don't have a registration, just use bugmenot
Take a look at my blogs from 5 years ago...
JOHN
Railroadjames This is off topic a bit but it does address the issues of how different these two vehicles really are and which one meets todays best needs.
""We are seeing people who are driving $40,000 Suburbans trading them in on $15,000 Corollas," said Mathews, who manages a dealership in a state where big trucks and sport-utility vehicles rule the roads. "The last 30 days have been unlike anything I've ever seen in the automotive industry."</big
Those of us who expected this can revel in the news......Higher MPG is indeed better !!! :shades:
The Chevy Avalanche is another vehicle that falls into this category.
Sorry if this was posted already. NYT article.
But if you want to save money, taking into account the purchase price of the vehicle, then you will be better off buying a conventional model, even at today's elevated gas prices
hybrids stretch gas dollars
I wanted a car with a certain "interior comfort level" and no car priced below the $19,324 I paid for my Hybrid met that mark AND also:
1. Got 50 MPG, and
2. Had a government tax incentive, and
3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
4. Was a 5-seater.
Every mile I drive puts me more into the black.
So all those smart people who think hybrids are financial boo-boos and thus are not smart buys are wrong in MY case, and in the case of many others too.
If I had wanted a "bottom feeder" car, I would have gotten an Echo or a Kia or a Hyundai for $12,000.
JOHN
Now, there's talk that broadband internet can be delivered on that same household power receptical. That's awesome: so while your Prius is getting its batteries juiced, it can be receiving software updates (and maybe even report back your mileage statistics or shopping locations).
But then, I suppose, we'll have to purchase 'pop-up' blockers and virus scan for the Prius' computer.
1. Got 50 MPG, and
2. Had a government tax incentive, and
3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
4. Was a 5-seater.
A new Civic LX can be obtained for $14,600.
1. It will obtain 40 mpg.
2. No, it does not have welfare* (*govt. tax incentive). Government should not support your hybrid addiction.
3. Civic LX insulates you from the future worries of high gas prices and costs $4724 less than $19,324.
4. It is a 5 seater. In fact, it is remarkably similar in dimensions to the HCH. And the rear seats even split and fold.
So you started out $4724 in the red. That money saved would buy gas for 69,000 miles of driving at $3.00 a gallon in a Civic LX using the 40 mpg highway mpg.
Or is a Civic LX a "bottom feeder" and not eligible for your purchase consideration?
You are a perfect example of why hybrids do not make cents! :P Thanks for making the article more relevant.
Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.
But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.
"I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.
Hybrid mileage woes
There are MANY drivers of HCH who have more than 50 MPG as their lifetime number. Mine is actually lower because my commute is short and my car does not normally reach optimum operating temps (which make for the best fuel economy numbers) during my short commute. I also live in Phoenix and am forced to use the A/C a lot in summer, which hurts all car's MPG.
I am FAR FROM a phenom, but my car will be at lifetime 50 MPG within about 10 more tanks. My current tank is approaching 100 miles and I am sitting at 57.9 MPG for that first 100 miles. My lifetime average is only 47.9 on the car, but I have learned a new trick lately and that lifetime number is on it's way up.
That Pete Blackshaw thing is old news. He was just refusing to "play the game" and drive an HCH like it needs to be driven to achieve 50 MPG.
Notice how you totally, completely ignored smog-related emissions too.
That does not make sense (or cents) at all. The 2006 model hybrid will be PZEV rated. That non-hybrid is only ULEV. That's a very big difference, of importance that simply cannot not be ignored or dismissed.
JOHN
I've gotten as high as 73 MPG and that was with three people in the car. And I'll happily pay the $12,000 to do the plug-in conversion.
Plus, I don't understand why people like Moparbad try to talk down hybrid. We're giving him an obvious freebee: everytime I DON'T go to the gas station, I'm placing less demand on the infrastructure.
You'd think that if he truly believed that we were lemmings, he'd be pointing out where the cliff is for us!!
:lemon:
I'd be in the airport with my head shaved, passing out Prius brochures.
If the fuel consumption difference is not significant, the good ole fashioned base model MT Civic will look like compelling value!(assuming your ego can live without the hybrid hoopla)
Show us how HCH saves money. Compare your HCH to a comparable non-hybrid, the Honda Civic LX. Give an example of the math.
This is not the right place for this discussion. A Civic LX is not the right car for me. Maybe a Civic EX had enough "creature comforts" for me. There was an EX on the lot the night I bought my HCH which was $1524 less than my HCH. That difference would have been easy to recoup in tax and gas savings. The HCH had the right features, including 50 MPG.
Why?
1. There is much false information that buying a hybrid will save you money. It is just not true. Reporters and auto execs. such as Carlos Ghosn understand this.
Hybrid owners on this forum too often cheerleaders for this myth.
2. Hybrids lower emissions, hybrids obtain more mpg than comparable vehicles with conventional gas drivetrains. I simply believe that the premium for the hardware of a hybrid is not currently a wise expenditure. Funny thing is, hybrid owners too often say they purchased a hybrid to save money, not to have a green vehicle.
3. Hybrid fanatics are against other technological options. Research and continuing progress is needed on many fronts, not just reliance on hybrids.
4. Emissions!! There are other low emissions choices than hybrids. PZEV vehicles I ignore emissions when trying to make a point due to the fact that I am not trying to make a point about emissions. Can you not understand this John?
5. Overall market- hybrids are more of a publicity stunt at this time than a purchasing choice given the very small number that are available.
7. Tax incentives- I do not want to pay for your choice of a vehicle. An incentive for hybrids is just as bad as an incentive for SUV's. Let hybrids succeed or fail on their own merits.
They weren't driving on MARS my friend. These are examples of REAL PEOPLE driving the hybrids like ANYONE ELSE can do also, with the proper training.
And the reasons the hybrids do not "resemble advertised MPG" is that the EPA tests are faulty, not the hybrid technology.
Anyone who owns an HCH and has MY commute or something like it can learn to drive an HCH and achieve 50 MPG. It's not magic my friends, it's techniques which hybrid drivers can learn - ANY hybrid driver willing to make the most of their car.
Or I'm lying?
I get 54 MPG in the city. And you can post as many arguments to the contrary as you'd like, it's just a simple fact. I get over 60 MPG on the highway.
If you can't believe that, it's your problem.