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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It does not look like fuel cell vehicles are going to get any cheaper. Platinum is at $912 per oz. Hybrids continue to rise in price in spite of those that said they would come down as the price of batteries dropped. I would like to see where any of the hybrids have done anything other than go up in price. While all the other cars are going down in price. Toyota is discounting the Camry by as much as $4000. If Toyota was really interested in being green they would discount the hybrids as well.

    That's not the only problem for FCVs. An inexpensive replacement for platinum, the catalyst to change hydrogen to electricity in the fuel cell, is also required to bring the cost down to commercial levels (Ballard declines to say what its fuel cell actually costs, but Honda's FCX which uses a fuel cell of its own manufacture is reported to cost one million dollars).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I would like to see where any of the hybrids have done anything other than go up in price."-end quote

    Gary, ALL CARS go up in price over time, year to year, unless the features change. It's called "inflation." And cars which are in "high supply" can be discounted, too, regardless of how many drivetrains they have. Neither of those things are a "hybrid" thing at all, Gary, and after 40 years of buying cars you know that fully well.

    Gary Gary Gary.........as far as "discounting the hybrids" - no car dealer or car manufacturer will "discount" a car which because of demand they can barely keep up with the supply. Especially now, when fuel efficient cars are gaining in popularity.

    Toyota IS interested in being green, they are just not STUPID when it comes to business decisions, in part what makes them the healthiest and most profitable car company on Planet Earf.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "But the motor itself certainly isn't. The specs I've read clearly state 15kW."

    Well, it is a bit difficult to determine what the 2006 HCH kW will be from the review. In any case, the point is that it will move on electric only, unlike the current HCH. Here is part of what they said:

    TECHNICAL HIGHLIGHT
    The renewal of Honda's Civic lineup extends to the hybrid sedan, which receives several upgrades that enhance performance and fuel economy. Although the Integrated Motor Assist is fundamentally the same as introduced in the Insight two-seater—an electric motor bolted between the car's internal-combustion engine and transmission, providing acceleration assist on demand—the latest version incorporates two new wrinkles. First, the system now allows the Civic to run on battery alone for brief periods (one to five minutes) at low speeds (10 to 30 mph). Since the electric motor is always coupled to the engine, the key to this electric-only operation is a new system that seals the engine's cylinders to reduce pumping losses. Honda also improved the electric motor's output (from 13 to 20 horsepower) and regenerative capability without increasing its size by using flat copper wires, rather than round, for the windings. This allows more wire to fit in the same space, hence the stronger motor.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=36&article_id=10022
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The review I read said that the motor itself is now twice the capability.

    Then it would be 20kW. It has been 10kW for years now. And there is plenty of documentation to prove it. In fact, here's an example... http://avt.inel.gov/hev.html ...just follow the fact-sheet links for Civic-Hybrid.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    ALL CARS go up in price over time, year to year

    I am not the one that said battery prices would come down as more were manufactured. Several on this thread claimed that the reason for the hybrid premium is the cost of the battery which will come down as the hybrids get more popular. It looks as if the opposite is true. The Camry is discounted lower than it was last year at this time and the Prius is more expensive. Making the premium a lot more now than it was a year ago. It looks like right today you can buy a Camry with all the bells and whistles for about $6k less than the Prius.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    What bells and whistles? Does the Camry give you a tax credit starting in 2006? Does the Camry get 50mpg on the highway?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The Economics of Scale will bring battery prices down, and I'm sure ALREADY has done so, for the hybrid car manufacturers. You can bet that Toyota pays less for a battery when they are ordering 200,000 of them than they did when they only needed 20,000 a year. That's basic economics 101.

    But does anyone really think that the car companies are going to pass that savings on to the hybrid buyer? Not likely.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That's basic economics 101

    It looks as though Toyota executives were students of the PT Barnum school of economics. We all know what that is.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Lawmakers eye bill to encourage hybrid, alternative fuel cars

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/09/26/lawmakers_eye_bill_to_e- - ncourage_hybrid_alternative_fuel_cars/

    Tax breaks, HOV lanes, and free Fast Lane transponders.

    "The bill would also require that at least half of the state's fleet of vehicles run on alternative fuels by 2010 -- and establish an "Alternative Fuels Institute" at the University of Massachusetts."
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    At least they didn't go to the school where the GM guys went. Quite close to a few toilets? LOL
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The issue as I see it is that a hybrid is NOT an alternative fuel vehicle, unless it uses E85, biodiesel, LNG or CNG. Hybrids are still sucking down the fossil fuel at a slightly lower rate. If you give two people access to the HOV that should be carpooling you have caused more problems than you have solved. Putting hybrids in their fleet of vehicles is fine. Are they able to buy them where they are economical?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Are they able to buy them where they are economical?

    Given the track record on how economical all levels of government seem to be when it comes to spending our money, I'm not sure I'd count on that! ;)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The Prius will have no problem running on E85.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You got a buck to bet on that? Do you know anyone that has tried. It is cheaper here than regular $2.449 per gallon, so worth a try in someone else's car.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    john1701a has already used it. It is currently being sold in MN. I don't have to take your money. Just take my word for it.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    No, actually it was my college that did that with a Classic Prius. The tests went well too, with the exception of the factory emission sensors not being calibrated for that type of combustion.

    FFV technology is abundant & cheap around here. And there are 170 stations that sell E85. So we know that avenue could be pursued, if needed.

    For now, the plan (approved this last spring) is to up the standard in Minnesota from E10 to E20.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What kind of mileage did they get with the E85?
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    I'm curious as to why all the attention to the batteries? The pattern has been established throughout the industry where these and various similar type batteries have been implimented. THEY COME DOWN IN PRICE! (and will continue to). I've heard comments to the effect that the Prius has only a marginal savings as to MPG's. CHECK THIS OUT
    HUMMER*...38 gal. tank....9 mpg....342 miles to fillup
    PRIUS......**12 gal. tank....51mpg....612 miles to fillup
    I'd say there's considerable savings with a Prius
    *Ever notice nobody releases the milage of this behemuth
    ** actually 11.9
    P.S. I'll bet P.T. Barnum would have bought the first Prius to come his way.
    Railroadjames
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Given that there are only two suppliers for these batteries in the world, and they are both Japanese companies, I don't see the battery prices coming down anytime too soon. Maybe in a few years when other suppliers get in the game, but not before 2010.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.southernstandard.net/news.ez?viewStory=21522

    "Toyota donated four Prius vehicles to Friends of the Smoky Mountains National Park, which immediately turned them over to the park, during a ceremony atop Clingmans Dome on Saturday."
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Since the Hummer H1 and H2 are over 8500 LBS GVWR they do not have to be tested by the EPA for fuel ecomomy. They are considered commercial vehicles.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Wow... such wonderful insight! Amazing how you know the plans five years in advance. Can you tell me what the DOW will be in 2010 as well?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    http://tinyurl.com/8fgwf

    Link to NY Times... if you don't have a registration, just use bugmenot
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Amazing how you know the plans five years in advance.

    Take a look at my blogs from 5 years ago...

    JOHN
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Not sure I get your question. Look back at the thread.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Lets see if I got this right....You say the Hummer H2 & H1 are over 8,500 lbs (other words BIG & HEAVY) and are considered "Commercial Vehicles"....By who? Makes absolutly no sense. Its a vehicle that is purchased by the public and should meet the same standards as any other vehicle. EPA rating and reasonable mileage. Next thing they'll be calling them Auxillary Military Vehicles on Reserve Stand By thus disqualified from any required standards.
    Railroadjames This is off topic a bit but it does address the issues of how different these two vehicles really are and which one meets todays best needs.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/27/AR2005092701812.html

    ""We are seeing people who are driving $40,000 Suburbans trading them in on $15,000 Corollas," said Mathews, who manages a dealership in a state where big trucks and sport-utility vehicles rule the roads. "The last 30 days have been unlike anything I've ever seen in the automotive industry."</big

    Those of us who expected this can revel in the news......Higher MPG is indeed better !!! :D:) :shades:
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I am not saying it makes any sense but that is how the currenty laws/EPA regulations are worded. Any vehicle over 8500 LBS Gross Vehicle Weight is considered a comercial vehicle and does not have to be tested by the EPA for MPG.

    The Chevy Avalanche is another vehicle that falls into this category.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    http://tinyurl.com/cx2fh

    Sorry if this was posted already. NYT article.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Here's the bottom line: You should consider buying a full hybrid vehicle (one that can run on its electric motor alone) if you want to reduce CO2 exhaust emissions, particularly if you do most of your driving in the city.

    But if you want to save money, taking into account the purchase price of the vehicle, then you will be better off buying a conventional model, even at today's elevated gas prices

    hybrids stretch gas dollars
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Those guys can generalize and estimate and crow all they want about "how much smarter they are than all those fools who are buying hybrids" but for many of us, finances were not the only reason for buying a hybrid.

    I wanted a car with a certain "interior comfort level" and no car priced below the $19,324 I paid for my Hybrid met that mark AND also:

    1. Got 50 MPG, and
    2. Had a government tax incentive, and
    3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
    4. Was a 5-seater.

    Every mile I drive puts me more into the black.

    So all those smart people who think hybrids are financial boo-boos and thus are not smart buys are wrong in MY case, and in the case of many others too.

    If I had wanted a "bottom feeder" car, I would have gotten an Echo or a Kia or a Hyundai for $12,000.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That article just lumped all types of hybrids into a single category and it made no reference whatsoever to smog-related emissions. They've had 5 years to learn about the various aspects of hybrid operation & design. There's simply no excuse for such misleading writing anymore.

    JOHN
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I've seen a lot lately in the news about retrofitting the Prius so that it can plug in, getting nearly 200 MPG in the process. Pretty amazing.

    Now, there's talk that broadband internet can be delivered on that same household power receptical. That's awesome: so while your Prius is getting its batteries juiced, it can be receiving software updates (and maybe even report back your mileage statistics or shopping locations).

    But then, I suppose, we'll have to purchase 'pop-up' blockers and virus scan for the Prius' computer.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    How much will a plug-in add to your electrical bill every month?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I wanted a car with a certain "interior comfort level" and no car priced below the $19,324 I paid for my Hybrid met that mark AND also:

    1. Got 50 MPG, and
    2. Had a government tax incentive, and
    3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
    4. Was a 5-seater.

    A new Civic LX can be obtained for $14,600.
    1. It will obtain 40 mpg.
    2. No, it does not have welfare* (*govt. tax incentive). Government should not support your hybrid addiction.
    3. Civic LX insulates you from the future worries of high gas prices and costs $4724 less than $19,324.
    4. It is a 5 seater. In fact, it is remarkably similar in dimensions to the HCH. And the rear seats even split and fold.

    So you started out $4724 in the red. That money saved would buy gas for 69,000 miles of driving at $3.00 a gallon in a Civic LX using the 40 mpg highway mpg.
    Or is a Civic LX a "bottom feeder" and not eligible for your purchase consideration?

    You are a perfect example of why hybrids do not make cents! :P Thanks for making the article more relevant.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    50 mpg in your HCH? LOL CR can not get 50 mpg, Pete B. can not ge 50 mpg in HCH, HCH is not even rated at 50 mpg. Amazing that you get 50 mpg in your HCH larsb. You must be a phenom.

    Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.

    But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.

    "I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.


    Hybrid mileage woes
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    In California it's estimated to be the equivalent of 70 cents a mile. Maybe a bit more, but not much. Plus the power grid is ten times cleaner (measured from energy source to consumption) even when coal is used.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Hybrid addiction? Huh?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Moparbad-"50 mpg in your HCH? LOL CR can not get 50 mpg, Pete B. can not ge 50 mpg in HCH, HCH is not even rated at 50 mpg. Amazing that you get 50 mpg in your HCH larsb. You must be a phenom."-end quote

    There are MANY drivers of HCH who have more than 50 MPG as their lifetime number. Mine is actually lower because my commute is short and my car does not normally reach optimum operating temps (which make for the best fuel economy numbers) during my short commute. I also live in Phoenix and am forced to use the A/C a lot in summer, which hurts all car's MPG.

    I am FAR FROM a phenom, but my car will be at lifetime 50 MPG within about 10 more tanks. My current tank is approaching 100 miles and I am sitting at 57.9 MPG for that first 100 miles. My lifetime average is only 47.9 on the car, but I have learned a new trick lately and that lifetime number is on it's way up. :D

    That Pete Blackshaw thing is old news. He was just refusing to "play the game" and drive an HCH like it needs to be driven to achieve 50 MPG.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Civic LX did not meet my needs. No 50 MPG, no clean emissions, not the same car as an HCH. Sorry about pointing this out. :D
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > You are a perfect example of why hybrids do not make cents!

    Notice how you totally, completely ignored smog-related emissions too.

    That does not make sense (or cents) at all. The 2006 model hybrid will be PZEV rated. That non-hybrid is only ULEV. That's a very big difference, of importance that simply cannot not be ignored or dismissed.

    JOHN
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I'll tell you what: when gas prices in Atlanta start hovering around $5.00 a gallon, I'm going to be glad that I bought a car that can be further refined in terms of efficiency.

    I've gotten as high as 73 MPG and that was with three people in the car. And I'll happily pay the $12,000 to do the plug-in conversion.

    Plus, I don't understand why people like Moparbad try to talk down hybrid. We're giving him an obvious freebee: everytime I DON'T go to the gas station, I'm placing less demand on the infrastructure.

    You'd think that if he truly believed that we were lemmings, he'd be pointing out where the cliff is for us!!

    :lemon:
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Oops. Lemming. Not lemon.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    In fact, if I were a Hummer owner, I'd be the most ardent supporter of hybrid technology of all!!

    I'd be in the airport with my head shaved, passing out Prius brochures.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I cant wait to see real world driving comparisons between the 2nd edition of the HCH against the new edition of the gasoline Manual tranny Civic?

    If the fuel consumption difference is not significant, the good ole fashioned base model MT Civic will look like compelling value!(assuming your ego can live without the hybrid hoopla)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    So all those smart people who think hybrids are financial boo-boos and thus are not smart buys are wrong in MY case, and in the case of many others too.


    Show us how HCH saves money. Compare your HCH to a comparable non-hybrid, the Honda Civic LX. Give an example of the math.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    QUOTE Mpoarbad-"Show us how HCH saves money. Compare your HCH to a comparable non-hybrid, the Honda Civic LX. Give an example of the math."-end quote

    This is not the right place for this discussion. A Civic LX is not the right car for me. Maybe a Civic EX had enough "creature comforts" for me. There was an EX on the lot the night I bought my HCH which was $1524 less than my HCH. That difference would have been easy to recoup in tax and gas savings. The HCH had the right features, including 50 MPG.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Plus, I don't understand why people like Moparbad try to talk down hybrid.

    Why?
    1. There is much false information that buying a hybrid will save you money. It is just not true. Reporters and auto execs. such as Carlos Ghosn understand this.
    Hybrid owners on this forum too often cheerleaders for this myth.
    2. Hybrids lower emissions, hybrids obtain more mpg than comparable vehicles with conventional gas drivetrains. I simply believe that the premium for the hardware of a hybrid is not currently a wise expenditure. Funny thing is, hybrid owners too often say they purchased a hybrid to save money, not to have a green vehicle.
    3. Hybrid fanatics are against other technological options. Research and continuing progress is needed on many fronts, not just reliance on hybrids.
    4. Emissions!! There are other low emissions choices than hybrids. PZEV vehicles I ignore emissions when trying to make a point due to the fact that I am not trying to make a point about emissions. Can you not understand this John?
    5. Overall market- hybrids are more of a publicity stunt at this time than a purchasing choice given the very small number that are available.
    7. Tax incentives- I do not want to pay for your choice of a vehicle. An incentive for hybrids is just as bad as an incentive for SUV's. Let hybrids succeed or fail on their own merits.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    QUOTE DEWEY-"in all honesty the above examples are extreme and do not reflect the real world of driving. You do know that?"-end quote

    They weren't driving on MARS my friend. These are examples of REAL PEOPLE driving the hybrids like ANYONE ELSE can do also, with the proper training.

    And the reasons the hybrids do not "resemble advertised MPG" is that the EPA tests are faulty, not the hybrid technology.

    Anyone who owns an HCH and has MY commute or something like it can learn to drive an HCH and achieve 50 MPG. It's not magic my friends, it's techniques which hybrid drivers can learn - ANY hybrid driver willing to make the most of their car.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Wow, so I have to completely ignore my own anecdotal driving experience? Or admit that I'm driving like an oddball to accomplish what I'm accomplishing (I now see a lot of Expeditions driving like they're trying to se the MPG record in THEIR class)?

    Or I'm lying?

    I get 54 MPG in the city. And you can post as many arguments to the contrary as you'd like, it's just a simple fact. I get over 60 MPG on the highway.

    If you can't believe that, it's your problem.
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