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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm glad the Prius has generated competition.

    Like that article I posted a few hours ago about how all the Toyota competitors are now focusing on improving fuel economy...Toyota and Honda primarily can take credit for that... :shades: :D
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    But the gamble by Toyota, the pioneer in producing hybrids, still faces a variety of major challenges, among them increased competition, new tax rules that favor its American competitors and a spreading realization among car buyers that not all hybrids offer big savings on gas.

    As larsb stated competition is good for everyone, Toyota included. Absent some revolutionary breakthrough Toyota may end up adopting something akin to GM's technology on the new Tundra next year. Good for GM. Just do more.

    The HCH is good and has good technology but the HAH and maybe the V6 HH are going in the wrong direction. Both save fuel but both are aimed frankly at a more well-to-do clientele and maybe dont belong in the HonYota lines.

    The boldfaced phrase in your quote by whoever was the writer is just dumb. Why is there an advantage to a GM buyer who next year gets a $400 rebate or a Ford buyer who gets a $2000 rebate over a Prius buyer who likely might get a $3150 rebate.

    BTW.. this quote is from some online digital rag in SE North Carolina Vacationland. I live just north of there on the Outer Banks. It's a regurgitated piece from the NYT to which I've written already questioning their sloppy thinking/'reporting'.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The Prius was already popular when gas WAS $1.75/gallon. Do you think it will stay that way for long? The world is quiet now. One middle east incident and you'll see a spike. You are right... once the average goes below 2 bucks people will start coming back to SUVs. I won't have ANY pity for them when gas goes up again.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why is there an advantage to a GM buyer who next year gets a $400 rebate

    I was curious about that statement also. I think the NYT article made the claim that Toyota had already sold 60k vehicles and would not be eligible for the new tax credit. The credit has a fairly long life that will give all the car makers time to build either hybrids or clean diesel cars to take advantage of the credit. I'm not a big fan of most of the media unless they back up my opinion. :) :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The motive for their $23,000 impulse buy, Uhlhorn said, was high gas prices. Quinn commutes 80 miles one way to work in West Palm Beach. The Prius, which runs both on a gas engine and an electric motor, generally gets better gas mileage than a traditional car.

    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13147350.htm
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.primezone.com/newsroom/news.html?d=89831

    "With the idea of saving gas on everyones' minds these days, ZAP plans to unveil its new XEBRA(tm), one of the world's only production all-electric cars. U.S. consumers will have the first chance to order this unique four-passenger vehicle for under $10,000 as ZAP sets up distribution in the United States through its authorized dealers.

    image

    ZAP is also unveiling two new prototype "trybrid" automobiles through a partnership with Brazilian automaker OBVIO!(tm) Automotoveiculos S.P.E. Ltda., of Rio de Janeiro. ZAP is the exclusive North American distributor for the OBVIO! "trybrids," which have the ability to run on gas, electricity or alcohol. ZAP plans to make OBVIO! available to consumers through its dealer network by 2007."


    Did they have to make it so......handsome challenged?
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Thanks for the post Larsb.

    Ugly isn't the only thing that stands out in my mind, but safety. It looks rather fragile to me. If it came down to a crash duel between a ZAP and 90% of anything else on the road today, I'd bet on anything else.
    Bet it would spin like a top around its rear axle if hit on the side of the front quarter panel near the headlight.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that they are working out the energy issues. I think they still have a ways to go.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Although I was looking at the three wheel setup. With four people in there, you'd have to be real careful about how fast you took a tight corner!

    I know that the arguement is going to be three wheels means less rolling resistance than four...
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    They'd have to pay ME ten grand just to drive that thang!! :D:D
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Fantastic article. I like this quote:

    And hybrids, for all their megawatt buzz, are not the only answer—they account for just 1.3 percent of the market, since most car buyers can't afford the $4,000 to $10,000 premium to own one. The real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars.

    That is 100% correct.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Not for long. They already account for more sales than diesel cars in the US. And... hybrids are only around for less than ten years. Diesels have been around for 100. Guess the diesel gravy train is unhooked. Hybrids...gotta love the technology. Anyone see the projections for hybrid sales lately? Now they're talking millions!!!

    Gotta love it baby!!!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    And hybrids, for all their megawatt buzz, are not the only answer—they account for just 1.3 percent of the market, since most car buyers can't afford the $4,000 to $10,000 premium to own one. The real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars.

    moparbad: That is 100% correct.

    While we havent agreed on much I do agree 100% with that statement as well.

    Just as 90% of the market can't afford a Lexus, Acura, Bimmer it's true that regarding the hybrids '..most car buyers can't afford the $4000 to $10000 premium to own one.' The typical car buyer is looking for a $10-12000 vehicle ( probably used ).

    The First Time Buyer, young struggling couple, single teacher, pensioner on a limited income cannot afford the luxury of thniking of fuel economy differential vs hybrid premium if they have to worry about paying the car note on a $12k vehicle.

    The demographic moparbad posted two weeks ago described perfectly the typical hybrid buyer; i.e. well-to-do, well educated with the disposable income to 'indulge' his/her environmental conscience. It is for now a small segment for sure.

    The marketing has been directed to this group and it has been more successful than even Toyota imagined. These buyers can likely purchase any vehicle they wish but they choose to purchase a Prius, for example.

    As the above-referenced quote mentions the real action though is in conventional cars.. or getting the public interested in them again. In addition increasing the FE of any big vehicle by 20-30% is just as valid as increasing the FE of a midsized auto from 28 to 48 mpg.

    Interesting comparison:
    A) Prius vs 4c Camry
    Prius combined mpg ~ 48 mpg or 20.8 gal/1000 mi driven
    Camry combined mpg ~ 28 mpg or 35.7 gal/1000 mi driven
    the Prius saves 13 gal/1000 mi driven

    B) HyHighlander vs ICE Highlander
    HH combined mpg ~ 25-27 mpg or 38.5 gal/1000 mi driven
    ICE H comb. mpg - 20 mpg or 50 gal/1000 mi driven
    the HH saves 12-13 gal/1000 mi driven !!!

    C) GMC 'Hybrid' Sierra vs ICE Sierra ( to be confirmed )
    hybrid comb mpg ~ 16 mpg or 62.5 gal/1000 mi driven
    ICS combined mpg ~ 14 mpg or 71.4 gal/1000 mi driven
    If these ratings are accurate or if they can be combined with diesel savings then the Sierra will save at least as much or more fuel than the Prius.

    The Prius ratings are sexy but only because they are so BIG ;) . The real action is in all the other vehicles on the road.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Software bugs

    Wow! What is next for the Prius? Anti-Virus and Firewall?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Moparbad-"The real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars. "That is 100% correct."-end quote

    Actually, not even CLOSE to being 100% correct, at least not in the way you intended to say it, I think.

    What that is is a reporter relying on OLD news and not using current trends to drive his reporting.

    Sure, hybrids only make up 1.3 percent NOW but look at the increases - sold 81,000 in 2004, now almost 200,000 to be sold in 2005, and with the new tax credit for 2006, does ANYONE REALLY think that number is not going to go up a LOT AGAIN in 2006?

    And what the author meant by "the real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars" is the fact that because of Hybrids and what they have done to fuel economy (i.e. driven it UP) the engineers at car makers are now having to engineer good fuel economy into conventional gasoline cars in order to compete with the hybrids.

    THAT is the "real action" he was talking about. Action being "engineering action" for the engineers trying to compete with the superior Hybrids with gas only cars.

    So, the the key thing to remember about this article is that HYBRIDS are the cause of all the new interest in building gasoline cars with higher fuel economy, so they can compete.

    Don't misunderstand things, folks.....:D
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The author makes it sound as if the Prius problem due to software is unusual. It happens all the time in the automotive world. Maybe the difference is that a software problem on, say, a Hyundai Elantra, isn't as sexy as a recall on a hybrid. All new cars have computers; computers run on software; software is written by humans; humans are fallible. Anyway, what is the difference if, say, a transmission is made inoperable due to a programming error or a hardware error? There is one I can think of: the fix for software error is a lot easier to apply.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.indiacar.net/news/n17528.htm

    " TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. will begin using a cheaper and smaller hybrid system from 2008, more than doubling production of the fuel-sipping vehicles by then to 600,000 units a year, the Asahi daily reported on Wednesday.

    Japan's top auto maker is keen to spread the hybrid powertrain as the main fuel-efficient alternative to internal combustion engines to make up for initial spending on research and development and to lower high per-unit production costs.

    Toyota is aiming to sell 1 million hybrid vehicles annually some time in the decade beginning in 2010.

    Since rolling out the world's first gasoline-electric hybrid car in 1997, Toyota has improved the powertrain with a second-generation system it calls THS II, which powers the remodeled Prius and Lexus RX400h SUV, among others.

    But the hybrid system, which allows vehicles to run on an electric motor under certain driving conditions to save fuel, still costs manufacturers -- and consumers -- a premium of thousands of dollars over regular cars.

    By making the system smaller, Toyota aims to slash the premium by half and expand its use to most of its mid-sized or larger cars, the Asahi said, without citing sources."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,69519,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_5

    good stuff....

    "Engineers are developing adapter kits for hybrid vehicles that will increase their efficiency to 100 miles per gallon by powering them solely on electricity during short trips."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    About dang Time, Eh?

    "Supervisors Zev Yaroslavsky and Mike Antonovich introduced the motion, which was approved 5-0. The motion pointed out that even though hybrid cars cost more than gas-only cars, federal research has found that hybrid drivers pay an average of $8,000 less overall after five years of ownership."
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Once again... thanks for those interesting links!! What's interesting is that the anti-hybrid crowd mainly show their angst to the Prius. The FEH is essentially a Ford Escape with very similar Prius technology. The RH and HH also don't seem to have as many haters as well. I still think it has to do with the amount of favorable press the Prius has received. It's bound to bring out the worst in some people. Not good to be jealous. Deal with it!! Hybrids are here to stay.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.wsusignpost.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/11/16/437ad0e1834a6

    "Hybrid cars are not new to WSU. Several years ago, WSU received one of the 30 hybrid Ford Escorts donated to colleges across the nation. After a few years and with only 2,000 miles on it, the car was going to be scrapped. But rather than scrap the vehicle, Bill Clapp, WSU Department of Computer and Electrical Engineering chairman, found the car a new home."

    I never knew Ford had made Hybrid Escorts.....Wonder why they made 30 and stopped?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Wonder why they made 30 and stopped?

    Same reason that Chrysler canned their hybrid in 1997. The accounting departments could not see a profit in the long range. That is still in question on all but the Prius. And I question the Prius being profitable. I also question the quality of the hybrid system that costs half as much to manufacture. I suppose you are going to say they are not cutting quality? Time will tell. There are some people on Edmund's with some mighty big repair bills on Prius barely 3 years old. $1900 for a used transaxle. What did one from Toyota cost?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Regardless of the car, anyone who does not pay extra for a bump-to-bump 100K extended warranty is just making a mistake. Cars break, and all new cars, Prius to Echo, have expensive parts.

    As far as the profitability of hybrids, can we just leave that alone? There is now way on God's Green Earth that the chairman of Ford would commit to making 250,000 hybrids a year and Toyota would say they want to build a million a year if the vehicles were not profitable. Let's just put that myth to rest forever, OK, AllRightyThen ??!!??

    Gary, "smaller and less complicated" does not mean "lower quality" last time I checked. You have something that proves it does?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Let's just put that myth to rest forever, OK, AllRightyThen

    No, the myth is that Toyota is making a profit. Almost every car manufacturer has come out and said that hybrids are NOT profitable. They are written off as GREEN advertising. One remote statement by a Toyota exec is your total basis of argument.

    "smaller and less complicated" does not mean "lower quality" last time I checked.

    You are right. The part you are pushing is the cheaper. Cost cutting invariably means cutting quality. There is NO free lunch in any business. Maybe when they build all the Prii in China as they are saying by the end of this year they will cut labor costs. I would say that is the only way they can cut the cost of the hybrid system in half. Do you think that will make the cost to the consumer any less? My money says it will not. You will not see Toyota lowering the MSRP on the Prius.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Assuming your car does not involve high operating expenses, I think a better hybrid purchase is a delayed hybrid purchase!

    If Toyota achieves its goal then hybrids will make dollars and sense independent of other considerations(environment) in about three years hence!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"Almost every car manufacturer has come out and said that hybrids are NOT profitable."-end quote

    OLD NEWS. That was in the days of 50,000 hybrids sold in the USA. As they get more popular, production prices go DOWN and margin goes UP. Get up to date:

    "Ford recently said it was planning to boost global production of fuel-sipping hybrid vehicles tenfold to 250,000 annually by 2010. More than half of the company's vehicles are expected to have hybrid capability by then. "There is no concern on meeting that commitment," Samardzich said."
    from:
    http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/09/Autos/ford_hybrid_plans/

    So even if Ford only loses $100 per vehicle, that's 25 million bucks lost. Seems like a lot of wasted energy and time for just a "green marketing" scam. Puh-Leeze. If they want to to spend $25 million on advertising, that's a lot less effort than making hybrid cars.

    And you seem to ignore the fact that almos EVERY SINGLE car builder who sells cars in the USA is working on a hybrid car or SUV or truck for the US market.

    Do you think all those carmakers are just idiots, looking to lose money? That's ludicrious to think they would do that, just for what, so they can "say they care?" That's ridiculous.

    PS If any of you own car company stocks, I would contact the board immediately and tell them that you don't want your dividends being dumped into "losing money" hybrids. See what they tell you.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ford is not worried because they know they will not sell that many hybrids. You keep glossing over the facts. There is but ONE successful hybrid. The Prius is the only one that is not sitting on the lots and or being highly discounted to move. The HCH may get a surge of sales. That is if the dealers can contain their greed. I cannot imagine a person that is not in a mental institution paying a $5000 premium on a Civic Hybrid.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    OK, so you are saying they are going to BUILD 250,000 but not sell them? That's worse than losing $100 on each one !!

    And as far as "one successful hybrid" I guess it depends on what your definition of "success" really is.

    I'd say the "hybrid movement" as a whole is vastly successful, since it is now forcing other carmakers to build hybrids to compete and MORE IMPORTANTLY than that is the fact that the car companies are now pouring engineering power into making all vehicle engines more fuel efficient.

    Even if ZERO hybrids are sold in 2006-2015, the movement has had incredible success as of TODAY.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    so you are saying they are going to BUILD 250,000 but not sell them?

    I did not say they would build them. Your article says that. You can bet if they are not selling they will not continue building them. They cannot get enough parts to build 250k hybrids without finding new manufacturers.

    Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.

    In one breath you say that the car makers will build x number of hybrids. In the next they cannot meet demand due to lack of PARTS. Then you say they will get the parts manufacturers to sell the PARTS cheaper. It is not logical that a company that has orders that cannot be filled, will be beat down in price. Your millions of hybrids on the market is not likely.

    I am glad to see a resurgence in research toward more efficient cars. I wonder if it will be like the last one in the 1980s. Honda got up to 50 MPG and the price of oil fell and with it the desire to build or sell FE cars. In fact the whole 1990s was just the opposite. Bigger and mo betta gas guzzlers. It could happen again. People like big luxury cars & SUVs. The oil companies want to sell gas. Match made in heaven.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That parts shortage thing is going to be short-lived for sure. The hybrid parts vendors are having a hard time, but they WILL ramp up because if they DONT, that's money out of their pockets, lost sales. That will be remedied.

    This resurgence in research thankfully is different in that now, cars are going to be "full featured" *AND* get good gas mileage.

    Back then, the Chevy Chevette "plastic transmission" boxy little death traps were the norm for high MPG cars, while now and in the future, cars will be normal sized, extra safe, have all the power you need, AND are going to be fuel efficient.

    Once again, all in thanks to the Hybrids which started the MPG push.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Once again, all in thanks to the Hybrids which started the MPG push.

    If you believe that, I have a bridge for sale.
    High fuel prices are the one and only factor that will cause consumer to choose mpg over horsepower!
    Fuel efficient smaller vehicles have been available since the 70's and they have been as popular as bird flu in the US.

    I wish it was different.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    while now and in the future, cars will be normal sized, extra safe, have all the power you need, AND are going to be fuel efficient.

    Thanks for describing my wife's 83 MB300D!

    Who needs hybrids when diesels were available bout a century ago!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Back then, the Chevy Chevette "plastic transmission" boxy little death traps were the norm for high MPG cars

    I think the mileage champ for gas was the Honda CRX. One of the most fun cars to drive ever built. The modern Civic does not hold a candle to the CRX for fun for the money. Unless you think gadgets make a car fun.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    PS
    The last oil crisis brought out diesels by almost every maker. They were not near what they are today. If the high fuel prices hold look for a good assortment of modern diesel cars. VW was the mileage champs back then with 50 MPG cars & small PU trucks. Many of them still on the road 25 years later. ULSD and biodiesel the practical answer to fuel economy.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Oh, sorry Dewey, I forgot to mention CLEAN as one of the criteria too - diesels left out, especially the 1983 MB300D, which puts out more dirty emissions on one mile than my HCH does in probably a tank.....:D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    especially the 1983 MB300D, which puts out more dirty emissions on one mile than my HCH does in probably a tank

    No reason to get rid of a perfectly good 22 year old car because the government failed to control fuel formula. I wonder how many 2003 hybrids will be on the road in 2025?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Moparbad-"High fuel prices are the one and only factor that will cause consumer to choose mpg over horsepower!"-end quote

    What my point of saying "once again, all in thanks to the Hybrids which started the MPG push" was referring to is the article I posted which said that the car companies are now putting extra engineering effort into making ALL engines more fuel efficient.

    THAT is the result of the hybrids gaining market share and attention.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > No, the myth is that Toyota is making a profit. Almost every car manufacturer has come out and said that hybrids are NOT profitable.

    Wake up and smell reality.

    Those automakers fighting hybrids are the same ones that define "profit" as an obscene amount of money gained from the sale of each individual vehicle with no concern about remaining competitive. That just plain is not realistic anymore. The business model has changed. They are in denial.

    Reality is that automaker survival is based on earning only modest profits now. So to end up with large quantities of cash like in the past, production volume & sales has to be significantly increased.

    This is the identical transformation that the computer industry faced a number of years ago. With respect to personal computers, that pretty much killed IBM and allowed HP to go from startup to major player. We will be seeing fundamental shifts of power just like that in the automotive industry.

    Change is coming. Get used to it.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    THAT is the result of the hybrids gaining market share and attention.

    Once again.
    You are in denial. Thank the $3 gallon gasoline. High energy costs are the reason that automakers are marketing and engineering increased mpg. 1% market share of hybrids is not the motivation. Scared consumers buying a low profit Malibu i/o a cash cow Tahoe is the motivation.

    I did an informal survey at work and the managers don't care about hybrids and the labor is not even aware of them for the most part.

    You are giving too much credit to the hype.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Of course change is coming. This is why GM is tetering on the brink of bankruptcy! I wonder if any mechanics will be around in 2025 to fix the 300 or so "hybrids" they built. In 2025 there may not even BE a GM. BUT.. you know what there will be? Yup... Toyotas with probably half their cars operating in either hybrid mode or some other type of propulsion system. The Toyota/Honda hybrids are extremely reliable. Much more so than the big 3. AND..that's a FACT!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hybrids sold well WAY before the hurricanes, and the trend was happening before then too:

    http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2002/April-2002/April-2002-4/April-24-02-p3.htm

    "Toyota Worldwide Hybrid Sales Top 100,000 Mark, April 24,2002"

    Total Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicle Sales 2000-2004

    2000: 9,367
    2001: 20,287
    2002: 35,961
    2003: 47,525
    2004: 83,153
    2005 as of end of October: 173,237

    That's an undeniably incredible growth chart, and is why "higher fuel efficiency" is on the mind of consumers AND car engineers.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    I own an RX400h. The Toyota/Lexus hybrid synergy drive is so superior a power plant that I will never purchase any car not having HSD or its equivalent (An engineering friend says Honda in its upcoming Civic hybrid will match Toyota). Today Toyota Motor announced the third generation hybrid will be put in forthcoming vehicles with some expectation of lower cost. In the Toyota Exhibition Hall on the Champs-Elysees in Paris, a Prius has its engine compartment cut open. One sees the 4 cylinder engine mounted transversally attached to an electric generator (much bigger than the usual alternator) connected to a big electric motor which has mounted above it a large streamlined container for the control system. It's clear that such a power plant is more costly and I'm happy that I'm fortunate enough (the hard way I earned it) to be able to afford it. It is regrettable affordability is low at this time but many of the posts here strike me as ill-informed.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    This is one of the primary reasons that very little can be gleaned from some of the posts. Read my post on why I believe there is so much anti-hybrid sentiment. A lot of it has to do with jealousy.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    I just want to post this web address for the 3G hybrid synergy drive I alluded to.
    http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200511160186.html
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Perhaps envy is there but I think it's more likely to be scepticism towards new developments. Nothing wrong with that. I believe that most people are open minded. So I post to help educate the automotive enthusiasts populating these forums about the things like automotive power plants that aren't external and visible.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Good luck!! You'll need it!!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There certainly is skepticism rampant here and a high level of disbelief as well but this trend is still in its infancy. The vehicle best known is intentionally directed to a specific market segment which is more open to change.

    The next step goes to the heart of the market with a comfortable friend, the Camry, being converted to HSD. As per your link, with a significantly lower cost the HSD might be added to every vehicle. Who would turn down more power and better FE.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Production has increased incredibly, why has cost not decreased at all? Cost has increased with each new model.
    In the last FIVE years there is no success in decreasing the component costs that are reflected in the sales price, so why do you think the Camry is going to change this in one year?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Novelty and Eyesore

    The common perception in America seems to be that these vehicles are a novelty, and in some cases an eyesore, especially with unknown models like the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insight. But consumers seem more willing to buy vehicles that look familiar

    Ninety-seven percent of respondents recognize "hybrid" vehicle terminology, 78 percent of respondents would consider buying a hybrid vehicle. If true, these stats are impressive.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In the last FIVE years there is no success in decreasing the component costs that are reflected in the sales price, so why do you think the Camry is going to change this in one year?

    Its called free market pricing. You are equating cost savings with price reductions. Why? If you can sell every vehicle you make at the price you 'suggest' why reduce it? It's what the Big 3 cannot do, find the price at which the public will buy - without discounts.

    It is extraordinarily good marketing.
  • haefrhaefr Member Posts: 600
    "Production has increased incredibly, why has cost not decreased at all? Cost has increased with each new model."

    This statement isn't really true - costs have gone down considerably. It's pricing which has remained stable or risen. For the first three years (and still true to some degree) hybrids were sold at a loss in spite of their $2,000-$3,000 premium over similar sized conventional models. Production costs have gone down, but the manufacturers are finally starting to amortize their previous losses, so don't look for an immediate favorable pricing adjustment - especially while demand is still hysterically peaked.

    (The above from my "Making Hay While the Sun Shines" text on economics on sale at booksellers everywhere - get your copy today!)
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