Hybrids in the News

katzjamr · January 2006

i have a springer spaniel that comes to work with me. i frequently come and go from the showroom and he is used to listening for the trucks. the delivery vans he can hear easily and is in the window waiting. the hybrid is more difficult for him however in the last few months he has picked up a signature noise from that vehicle and can recognize me when i pull up in it. between 6,500 and 7,500 vehicles pass our store a day and he only reacts to my vehicles.

PF_Flyer · January 2006

Are hybrid vehicles worth higher cost?

The debate over the "premium"
continues as readers weigh in at this article.

PF_Flyer · January 2006

New Hybrid Vehicles Debut at a Critical Time for the Technology, says ABI Research

"This is an important generation for the future of hybrid vehicles," says Dan Benjamin, principal analyst for ABI Research's transportation practice. "With these models - as well as the Ford Escape and the Honda Accord -- we're starting to see hybrid versions of mainstream vehicles. The auto makers are giving customers a direct choice: to opt for hybrid technology on a given model, or not. Will they pay the premium for the hybrid technology when everything else about the vehicle is the same?"

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/jan/1280501.htm

moparbad · January 2006

mechanics school for hybrids

As hybrids get older and require repair, mechanics will be trained to repair them.

toyolla2 · January 2006

On Jan 14th there was an episode of DRIVING TELEVISION where a selection of seven vehicles were driven "convoy" style on a 200km course in the Vancouver area of British Columbia. A route was devised for a mix of road conditions with driver changeouts every half hour to average out driving styles. Here are the results :

PRIUS......5.2L/100km 54mpg
JETTA TDI..6.8L/100km the only car using a 5MT
FORD ESCAPE Hybrid..7.5L/100km
2.4L CAMRY..8.9L/100km Auto
ACCORD Hybrid..9.1L/100km
FORD ESCAPE..10.7L/100km Auto
ACCORD V6..12.0L/100km Auto

Of course the PRIUS engine is only 1.5L and is the smallest engine of the cars here.

Hybridisation for Accords and Escapes seems to trim
3L/100km. Could we expect 5.9L/100km for the Hybrid Camry ?

Because of a bridge closing the route was altered and it took a total of 6.5 hours to complete the amended 200km course.
So much for needing 255hp cars when the average speed for this organised tour ended up at around 20mph.

I think we need better roads more than we need better cars.
Fuel cost differences between the best and worst here amount to $1400 for 20k km/year driving. ( $1 /litre gas )

Other things to note
One of the Accords' trip odometer read 207km even though the vehicles were always in sight of each other !
This discrepancy will be investigated by Honda service personnel in conjunction with a team from NASA's Gravity Probe "B" - people who have skills relating to perceived relativity.

Then a Ford Escape nearly became a Ford Escapee when the driver inadvertantly locked the keys inside during a changeover. The equivalent of the AAA were called and it was nice to see that a wire coat hanger in professional hands is still a useful automotive tool with a Ford product.

Finally the Jetta survived with no electrical problems showing that although VW may not worry about diesel particulates at least their car horns still give a hoot.
T2

gagrice · January 2006

PRIUS......5.2L/100km 54mpg
JETTA TDI..6.8L/100km

According to my conversion table the Prius got 45.2 MPG US. That is 25% below EPA city rating. As a comparison the Jetta got 34.5 MPG US. Which is only 4% off of the EPA city rating. I assume this was a city test averaging 20 MPH, That is supposed to be the strong hold of the Hybrids. I would like to see the test driven at 55-70 MPH on highway test. I would imagine the Jetta would do better than the Prius.

kdhspyder · January 2006

It was a 6-8 hour test drive throughout the Vancouver area in all kinds of traffic including HWY, City and rush hour. The vehicles followed one behind the other throughout, exchanging drivers every hour or two. It was a good test of all at the same time.

Regardless of what the EPA numbers are, and you know the weak points of their testing, this drive and video is indicative of which performs best in varied ( combined driving ).

bamacar · January 2006

Combined driving = 20mph average? Only with a positive Toyota Hybrid salesman spin on it. Or did you mean "combined" city/urban? Sounds like a highway test is in order to balance these results.

kdhspyder · January 2006

Huh? Did you see the video?

Combined driving = 20mph average? Only with a positive Toyota Hybrid salesman spin on it. Or did you mean "combined" city/urban? Sounds like a highway test is in order to balance these results.

Run that by me again please. Combined driving is a mixture of city and highway driving which is what most people do. Where did 20 mph come from?

There's no spin, although you seem to want it to be that way. The video speaks for itself and the conclusion is what it is.

gagrice · January 2006

So much for needing 255hp cars when the average speed for this organised tour ended up at around 20mph.

toyolla. posted this observation with his statistics on the convoy. It was obvious the test was meant to make the hybrids shine. Why else do it in a place that limits speed to 90 KMH? How is this test any better than the Prius and Jetta from Detroit to DC? I believe that would be a better combined mileage test. Any highway test that does not include 70-75 MPH is not realistic for most of the drivers in the USA.

kdhspyder · January 2006

OK .. did you see the video? It was a combination of driving and they got stuck in rush hour traffic and had to make a detour as well. Look at the video and make your own judgement. it is what it is.

The Detroit to DC test was a good one also with one fault. They didnt drive the vehicles in parallel with multiple drivers. If both vehicle had been driven from Detroit to DC and back, changing drivers every two hours then I'd give it a little more weight.

bamacar · January 2006

120 miles in 6.5 hours. What was the average speed (around 20mph)? Sounds like combined parking not combined driving. With a trip computer, my combined driving is usually 40-50 mph. Maybe this test means something for urban driving, but not much for the other 90% of the country.

kdhspyder · January 2006

I think the test was very representative of driving in any typical large metro area:
For 20 yrs I commuted into NYC from No. Jersey ~30 mi. Min time was 75 min (24 mph avg) up to 3+ hrs ( 10 mph avg ) depending on traffic. Nearly all of it was on 4 and 5 lane highways ( I80, I95, Rte 3, GW bridge and West Side Hwy ).

It's the same in Boston or the Beltway around DC or I95 through Baltimore or the Dan Ryan out of Chicago, etc. It's pretty typical of heavy traffic driving in and around any major city.

bamacar · January 2006

That is exactly what I said urban/city mix. The normal EPA mix is highway/city. This would likely yield a 40-50 mph average. The people in some states out west would say the average should be 70mph. The people in NYC would say 20mph. The mix is 45mph. All I meant was this test was perfectly built for the Prius and does not represent well those who live in small to moderate sized cities or those in rural areas. I commute 16 miles in about 20 minutes each way.

kdhspyder · January 2006

I dont know if it was structured, I just viewed the video and agree that it's representative of suburban/city driving in heavily populated areas.

My commute now is like yours, 75 miles one way in about 80 min on a rural 4 lane highway at abt 62 mph. The Prius is now getting 48-49 mpg cruising at ~60 mph. Since the video approximates my own results then it seems valid to me.

moparbad · January 2006

future hybrid style and substance

New designs for hybrids are actually starting to appeal to my eyes.
I am excited to see the new Camry. IMO the Prius wears the crown for the ugliest car.

dewey · January 2006

New designs for hybrids are actually starting to appeal to my eyes.

The picture does not look any different from the 07 non-hyrbid Camry. In other words you dont like design differentiation between hybrids and non-hybrids. And I do agree with you.

I like low profile technology that stays hidden under the hood than having the technology advertized to others with design differentiation.

larsb · January 2006

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-briefs18.4jan18,1,2235072.story?coll=la-he- adlines-business

'Yota putting a lot of confidence in the TCH and Lexus offerings for 2006, eh?

larsb · January 2006

http://vincentric.com/press_releases/press_releases_2006_01_17.asp

Hybrids Dominate Vincentrics Best Value in America Awards

BLOOMFIELD HILLS, Michigan  January 17, 2006  Vincentrics Best Value in America awards were announced today, with hybrid vehicles leading the way. The Toyota Prius, along with the hybrid versions of the Ford Escape, the Honda Civic, and the Toyota Highlander each won the Best Value in America award in their segment. Other hybrids receiving Excellent Value ratings are the Mercury Mariner hybrid, the Lexus RX 400h, and the Honda Insight.

To determine Vincentrics Best Value in America, Vincentric analyzed over 1,800 different vehicle configurations and computed the cost to own and operate each vehicle. Eight different cost factors were calculated to determine overall Cost of Ownership: depreciation, fuel, insurance, opportunity cost, financing, maintenance, taxes and state fees, and repairs.

Using a statistical model, the company identified the Best Value in America by measuring which vehicles have a lower than expected ownership cost given their market segment and price. The strong value of hybrids was clear when both a hybrid and non-hybrid version of the same vehicle were compared to other vehicles in the same segments. In those instances, the hybrid version had ownership costs that averaged 16.2% lower than a similarly priced competitor, while the non-hybrid version had ownership costs 7.9% lower.

Hybrids benefited from three main factors, stated David Wurster, President of Vincentric. First was their strong fuel economy ratings, resulting in lower fuel costs for these vehicles. Second was their strong residual values due to high demand, resulting in lower depreciation costs. And third was the federal tax credit that went into effect this year. This combination of factors creates extremely strong value for consumers.

dpat · January 2006

I think it's probably more a matter of them expecting demand for hybrids in general to increase considerably with the new tax credits.

larsb · January 2006

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&ne- wsId=20060118005489&newsLang=en

These guys insist they are going to biuld and sell this car:

"We're very serious about this. We're going to produce and sell these cars," says Fambro. "We've got a perfectly timed, market busting product. We have a great team of world class engineers and designers, high-powered marketing and sales experience, and a solid business plan."

mirth · January 2006

...they're called electric cars or plug-in hybrids. They get infinite MPG as long as you stop to recharge them every 20 miles.

fordforme · January 2006

Actually that test has already been done and the Prius outranked the Jetta TDI in those tests on highway only driving. I think there were two magazines that did the test. Car and Driver and Popular Mechanics.

fordforme · January 2006

I guess lots of people like the Prius as it is kinda futuristic looking. The Jeep Liberty is somewhat cartoonish. Was watching NCIS last night and they said the Jetta was a chick car as well as the Liberty. The Prius is a geek kinda car.

gagrice · January 2006

the Jetta was a chick car

I stopped in and sat in a new HCH today. It had better headroom than the Accord Hybrid. It was already sold or the salesman at Poway Honda would have let me try it out. Price $2000 over MSRP. They are selling about one per week. There was a 2006 Jetta parked in front of the office. I asked if they had taken it in trade. The answer killed me. It belongs to the General Manager. I told him he should park it in back. He agreed and said you don't tell the GM where to park. I am still laughing.

larsb · January 2006

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2006/19/c3970.html

Honda Wins Canadian Award for Alternative Power

Honda Civic Hybrid Awarded 'Best New Alternative Power'
By Automobile Journalists Association of Canada

MONTREAL, Jan. 19 /CNW/ - Honda's advanced technology leadership in the area of fuel efficiency and low-emission vehicles was recognized by the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC) with the Honda Civic Hybrid being named the "Best New Alternative Power" vehicle for 2006.
"The new Civic Hybrid provides Canadians the ultimate in efficient technology with improved performance while providing outstanding fuel efficiency and very low emissions at an affordable price," said Jim Miller, executive vice president, Honda Canada, Inc. "With the current high gasoline prices in Canada, hybrid technology is providing Canadians a viable alternative without having to sacrifice power, features or affordability."

bigdave2 · January 2006

Historically, I agreed with you, and I thought no one would buy the odd -looking Toyota products, and would prefer the normal-looking Honda products. Man have I been wrong. (Thank god I didn't go into marketing) It looks like hybrid opwners want people to know they drive a hybrid. Or maybe more hybrid owners think the Prius technology is superior to the Civic tech. I dunno. I guess it could be as simple as there is more room in a Prius, so more people buy one.

Interesting that all the new hybrids look "normal," given that the most successful hybrid has been a hybrid that looks odd (Prius).

kdhspyder · January 2006

There was an article in the Wash Post last year that stated just this point that you make. On one side of the street was a Toyota dealership with a waiting list on Prius' and on the the other a Honda store with 10-15 HCH1 on the lot not moving.

One of the key reasons for lack of movement was the HCH looked like any other Civic. ehh.

However we have entered a new phase.. the TCH. See the new thread just started. The Prius may have accomplished it's mission.

john1701a · January 2006

> maybe more hybrid owners think the Prius technology is superior to the Civic tech

It is. Refer to the FreedomCAR study to see that their objective MPG data reveals Prius is more efficient. Then note how the system is more power, even compared to the new Civic-Hybrid.

But the big deal is how Prius supports electric augmentation, as a few owners have already taken advantage of. Being able to utilize electricity more as the battery (or fuel-cell) technology advances is the key. Assist hybrids simply aren't intended to do that; their design is for the motor to assist the engine rather than completely take over for it at times.

JOHN

bigdave2 · January 2006

John: That may be true (I'm not arguing that point), but the question is, "Is that why there are more Priuses sold than Civics?"

Is it the looks?

the technology?

what is it?

I don't think it is the looks, but I dunno. We'd all be guessing.

moparbad · January 2006

In other words you dont like design differentiation between hybrids and non-hybrids

I do not dislike the design of the Prius because it is a hybrid. The Prius is so ugly that dogs wont chase it unless a steak is tied to it's bumper!

I like the design of the current Mustang, 1970's Porsche 911's, Industrial Art design of the current Cadillac's, Ferrari 348, pre-Bangle BMW's, 1974 Ford Bronco, Lexus IS 250, Dodge Magnum .........

I like low profile technology that stays hidden under the hood than having the technology advertized to others with design differentiation.

Often, I share your taste in "low profile". At this very moment the vehicle that immediately comes to my mind of "low profile" is the Subaru Forester 2.5 XT. Very, very fast and it is nearly INVISIBLE. Cerainly not a beautiful design, however, it is not offensive.

The problem presented with the new Camry is it's size. It is a bit too large.
Prius HSD powertrain in a Euro Corolla 5 door, now that would be FANTASTIC.

gagrice · January 2006

When do you think Korea will try to sell their hybrids to the USA? Do you think that Japan subsidizes hybrids as much as Korea?

The government has decided to purchase 418 hybrid automobiles this year to promote a low-emission and fuel-efficient vehicle.

The Ministry of Environment said Monday it would provide a 28 million won ($28,000) subsidy for each government-purchased car to encourage state agencies and local governments to use environmentally-friendly vehicles.

In 2004, the government purchased 50 Click hybrids manufactured by Hyundai Motor, the country¡¯s largest automaker.

The government also purchased and operated 312 Hyundai Motor¡¯s Verna and Kia Motors¡¯ Pride hybrid models last year.

The ministry plans to purchase a total 3,808 hybrid cars over the next three years; 1,195 in 2007 and 2,195 in 2008.

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200601/kt2006011619000811990.htm

dewey · January 2006

Most ecologists think hybrid marketing is a lot of bunk!

Although I myself am buying a hybrid Camry, I think the way Toyota is advertizing hybrids is quite insulting to anyones' intelligence.

Advertizing Hybrid Hype

backy · January 2006

Hybrids from Korea are coming to the U.S. this fall in the form of the Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio hybrids.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/hyundai_unveils.php

dewey · January 2006

Interestingly the gas mileage of the much smaller hybrid Accent(mpg aroung 40 something) will not be much better than the the hybrid Camry's mileage(mpg low 40s).

backy · January 2006

The info I've seen estimates the hybrid Accent at around 44-46 mpg overall, and the Camry looks like it will be around 40. That is a significant difference IMO. This is Hyundai's first hybrid to be sold in the U.S. The Camry will be Toyota's fifth hybrid sold in the U.S., and they have sold other hybrids in Japan. Personally I didn't expect Hyundai to match Toyota's hybrid technology right off the bat. But where Hyundai/Kia will have a major advantge over the Camry (and Prius and Civic) hybrids is on price. The Accent/Rio hybrids will be the only hybrids available in the U.S. (as new cars) for under $20k, and they should be quite a bit under $20k.

Consider also that the gas mileage of the Honda Fit will not be better than that of the larger Civic, and the gas mileage of the Toyota Yaris will not be better than that of the larger Corolla. So Hyundai is not alone in this situation.

dewey · January 2006

You raise good points about the Fit and the Yaris.

Also the hybrid Accent should sell well if priced lower to the current competition. I think the first mainstream hybrid will be a hybrid Corolla, but only if it is priced at a reasonable level.

backy · January 2006

And a mainstream Accent or Rio would not be "mainstream"? Have you seen the ICE versions of these cars, the '06 models? They are pretty nice--at least they provide a comfortable driving position, one thing the Corolla doesn't offer for many people.

moparbad · January 2006

the hybrid hoax

About 58 percent of hybrid drivers say they aren't happy with their fuel economy (compared with 27 percent of conventional vehicle drivers), according to CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Oregon.

Is the author biased? Yes.

The federal government subsidizes hybrid fashion statements with tax breaks that benefit the rich. The average household income of a Civic hybrid owner ranges between $65,000 to $85,000 a year; it's more than $100,000 for the owner of an Accord. The median income of a Toyota Prius owner is $92,000; for a Highlander SUV owner $121,000; and for a luxury Lexus SUV owner it's over $200,000

Tax subsidies for the rich :mad: I fit into the tax bracket and I certainly am not "rich",however, even I agree that I should not receive a tax break to buy a car.

kdhspyder · January 2006

This was discussed in another location. It was originally printed in a Murdoch rag. Bias and desire to sell papers is paramount with Murcoch papers look at the environment this article is in( end rant ).

While the facts are generally correct ( with some significant errors - the USA Today 'test' for example), it does point out several very valid points such as the way Anericans drive normally. However the point of the article, to drive a wedge between the liberal ( not always ) weenie, greeny rich and the average Joe blue collar, is in error. It is actually the average Joe who will benefit the most. The AMT cancels the right to the break for most 'rich welfare recipients'. But this he ignores. Hey if you have an axe to grind why let all the facts get in the way. Just choose the ones you like.

dewey · January 2006

About 58 percent of hybrid drivers say they aren't happy with their fuel economy (compared with 27 percent of conventional vehicle drivers), according to CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Oregon.
Is the author biased? Yes.

Read the article and thorougly looked for the author's bias and could not find any bias.
The author based his arguments on facts!What do you mean the author is biased?

dewey · January 2006

Murdoch may have certain political biases but that does not mean his media empire is spread fictions about hybrids.

bigdave2 · January 2006

scratch a hybrid owner and you will likely find someone who wouldn't be happy with his MPG even if it achieved 120% of EPA estimates

that isn't the case with the average car owner

I figured the author's bias was apparent from the fact that he writes for a Detroit newspaper. Unlikely to find objective reporting of the car industry out of Detroit.

dewey · January 2006

I am not expecting anything close to EPA 43/37 on my new hybrid Camry. But what I do know is that my 99 BMW 3 series is currently getting a dismal 18.5 mpg compared to EPA 21/29. Even though this 18.5 mpg figure is achieved during the winter while driving like a maniac, it is still somewhat of a disappointment. Contrary to my BMW driving habits I do intend to emulate my Aunt Irma's slow and painfully slow driving with a hybrid! In order to accomplish that I will have to re-wire my brain and maybe learn to meditate while driving.

I do not have inflated expectations and know that even with slow and non-agressive driving I may only achieve 70 percent of EPA figures! Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised with higher MPG figures, but I am not going to delude myself with such hopes until my own MPG results confirms good mileage.

kdhspyder · January 2006

In answer to both your posts I did read it and do acknowledge that there are valid facts there, invalid tests and a major invalid conclusion. But the point that irks me the most in a 'factual' discussion of the relative merits of hybrids, as we do here, is this statement...

JUST A FEW YEARS AGO, liberals criticized the Bush administration for allowing professionals to get tax breaks on large SUVs if they were purchased for business purposes. But evidently it's okay to subsidize under-performing hybrids

Who cares what the liberals did a year or two ago. This writer may have an opinion on the hybrid technology pro or con but if the President and Congress decides that limiting fuel consumption is a good thing for the country why make it a political issue. It's not it's a benefit for the nation, conservative, liberal, who cares it benefits everyone.

bigdave2 · January 2006

yes, that "liberals" comment does belie a bias.

besides, many people thought the SUV tax break was a stupid one, not just "liberals"

but calling out "liberals" that way certainly reveals a bias

PF_Flyer · January 2006

Leave the political commentary for other forums. Thanks!

larsb · January 2006

My 2004 HCH is still sitting at 48.3 MPG lifetime, matching EPA.

So the owners who cannot get that kind of mileage:

1. Don't care to learn enough about their car to get the most out of it, OR
2. Drive exclusively 70-80 MPH as their daily commute and never should have bought a hybrid under those conditions.

Anyone who WANTS TO can get EPA out of their Hybrid. I'm tired of all the whiners and complainers who don't want to put in the EFFORT.

Term of the day:

Vehicular Laziness.

larsb · January 2006

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/16709.html

Mexico to test hybrid cars in the capital
El Universal
January 24, 2006

Honda Mexico S.A. signed an agreement with the government Monday for a trial run of 500 Civic hybrid sedans, picking one of the world´s most polluted metropolises - Mexico City - to test its fuel efficiency.

Environment Secretary José Luis Luege said he wants to promote the use of hybrids nationwide, but first authorities will test-drive the cars themselves.

gagrice · January 2006

Drive exclusively 70-80 MPH as their daily commute and never should have bought a hybrid under those conditions.

I have to take exception to that statement. You have more than advocated people buying a hybrid for high speed travel. You have praised CA & VA for encouraging hybrid purchases by allowing them into the HOV lanes while solo driving. If they are nothing else the HOV lanes ARE high speed lanes. You will be tailgated on any of them in So. CA if you are driving slower than 70-75 MPH. They are there to get people to work quicker. Hopefully with several co-workers, not bogged down by a bunch of hybrid drivers trying to get 90 MPG from their car.

Hybrids in the News

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