Hybrids in the News

gagrice · October 2004

Accord Tourer i-CTDi diesel to America, Look out all you hybrids. That is one great looking car.

'In our efforts to extend the Force's use of diesel vehicles, to aid both the environment and our fuel budget, our ongoing partnership with Honda and the new diesel accord enables us to achieve all these aims in one vehicle. The performance and reliability of Honda in front line operations have proven to be very successful and I have no doubt that the Accord's new diesel engine will continue that success'.

http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/news/newsview.asp?id=501

backy · October 2004

I think people that are going for the absolute maximum mileage would buy the HCH, Insight or Jetta TDI with a manual transmission.

I agree, stick shifts have advantages for fuel economy, but the sad fact is that most people (in the U.S. at least) buy automatics. Probably why most third-party tests are done with them.

robertsmx · October 2004

It is okay to have beliefs. IMO, prototypes have a purpose, not necessarily to represent a future production car, but can represent technologies that can be (realistically) implemented. Dual Note fits the bill. Almost every technical piece outside of the multi-motor IMA, 6-speed clutch-less manual and the new 300 HP/V6 have been implemented in production cars (all of them, in Japanese market). Would you bet on it that the drive train components never will make it to production, in one form or another?

Dual Note also demonstrated that Honda had continued development of ATTS (Active Torque Transfer System), even with demise of the car that used it (Prelude SH). However, this time around, ATTS was coupled to an AWD system. This will sound familiar if you know a little about SH-AWD (2005 RL). But, Dual Note wasnt first prototype to have coupled ATTS to an AWD system. The history goes back to 1991 Honda FSX.

The 280 HP luxury sport sedan (FSX) with AWD system using ATTS for continuous torque movement on rear axle didnt get to production as is, 14 years later, the idea, however, is implemented in 300 HP luxury sedan (2005 RL). Sometimes, thats the purpose of prototypes.

A few months after Dual Note was revealed (2001 Tokyo Auto Show), Honda showcased another prototype, Acura RDX, at 2002 NAIAS. And it has an AWD implementation of a powerful multi-motor IMA. Of course, you dont want to believe in a powerful IMA system.

I had a question for you regarding cost of battery pack in 400H. You quoted $0. Well, I couldnt care less about replacement cost, whether Toyota is willing to take a hit, or is going to include it in the initial cost of the vehicle. The question wasnt answered as it was meant to be.

Your theory of proportions (ICE power versus Electric power) intrigues me. A hybrid set up isnt a system of disintegrated units. This is key to understanding the underlying engineering of the system. And as much as you like to compare the top end power, have you tried to do the same at the bottom end? I thought so. At one end of the spectrum that you chose (top end), IMA accounts for about 6-8% of the power. The other end that you ignore, IMA accounts for about 40-43% of the power.

I guess the more power ICE produces, the worse the hybrid system is unless the electrical system grows proportionately.

Going back to your calculations, here are some numbers for you to play with:
Voltage: 288 V
Current: 6.0 Ah

How many miles do you think the wattage would allow you to travel in a vehicle powered by a 50kW motor?

Ultracapacitors can hybrid with NiMH battery to create more synergism.

I dont see a point in having battery at all! And that, may be the future.

No, the bottom line was race car's battery don't need to deal with city driving situations so I can conveniently skip that part.

Before I let you do that, which situation is more demanding when it comes to be able to retain charge in a battery pack to go with the (high) power demand? Would it be:
A: Race Track
B: Stop and Go traffic

Based on your earlier hypothesis, one would need excessively large battery pack for a 150 HP electric motor (almost 10 times as large as the one in HAH, if you ignore progress made in battery technology over 7 years).

You can claim the next IMA will have much powerful electric motor but the track record shows otherwise.

I do not believe in absolute statements. Too many things dictate engineering and marketing decisions. Knowing that Honda has showcased multi-motor IMA system, it would come as no surprise to me if we see one in production form. Acura RDX could be it. In the mean time, it is possible that Honda will continue to refine electric motor output and storage to a point when switching to a more powerful IMA set up would make more sense. Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it. I couldnt say about you.

To change it, IMA will need to change fundamentally. Maybe become more like HSD by adapting series-parallel design as in that scooter.

And what is your understanding on fundamentals of IMA?

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

"It(Accord Diesel) has a combined mileage of 44 MPG US and far exceeds the handling of the Prius."

European Prius comes with better suspension and 16" rims. Let me provide you details about European Prius from one of the article that I have.

"Tuning the chassis to suit European tastes was a priority," says Jos de Boes, general manager of the Vehicle Engineering Division at Toyota Europe. For Prius the biggest priority was achieving stability in all driving conditions. Because this car can reach higher speeds we had to ensure it was safe at those speeds even under an emergency lane change.

"Our second priority was controlling the roll motion. We wanted to avoid excessive roll during cornering. What we ended up with was adopting rebound springs at the front and rear of the Prius for Europe - which are not fitted to Japan and USA versions where driving conditions are very different.

The basis which the Japanese and European Prius engineers had to work from was very sound in the first place. The new generation Prius adopts the front MacPherson strut independent suspension from the already acclaimed new Toyota Avensis whilst the rear suspension is an evolution of the Corollas torsion beam setup that allows a degree of anti-lift geometry and toe-out under hard cornering that promotes exceptional stability and controllability.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

"I had a question for you regarding cost of battery pack in 400H...The question wasnt answered as it was meant to be."

As a consumer, I answered it from a buyer's point of view. It is not even clear how much 04 Prius battery cost so, your guess is as good as mine. I can tell you that I can buy consumer electronic NiMH rechargable batteries that can hold the same amount of electricity as Prius' pack for about $500. Salvaged 04 battery pack is going for $800 on ebay. All I can say is that 400H battery pack should cost roughly(minus sensor electronics) twice of 04 Prius' pack.

"And as much as you like to compare the top end power, have you tried to do the same at the bottom end? I thought so."

When a full hybrid(HSD) powertrain can output variable thrust at any speed, there is no need to worry about top end, bottom end, middle and somewhere in between. If you want to see HSD power curve, I can post it again. What you just described is the extra problem that was created by the need for transmission because single ICE could not do everything alone. HSD does not inherit those draw backs of traditional cars because HSD is the result of a teamwork and simply does not have a transmission. IMA hybrids are still affected by it because it was built on top of traditional car design.

"which situation is more demanding when it comes to be able to retain charge in a battery pack to go with the (high) power demand?"

I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking which create more electricity demanding situation? Or, which situation enable battery to retain more charge?

"Based on your earlier hypothesis, one would need excessively large battery pack for a 150 HP electric motor (almost 10 times as large as the one in HAH, if you ignore progress made in battery technology over 7 years)."

My calculations were based on current highest specific power NiMH modules. That includes significant progress made during EV development to until now.

I believe Ultracapacitor-Battery hybrid energy storage device is going to be the next step. A small UC pack can absorb most of the abuse from hard acceleration and regen braking at high speed. NiMH pack can recharge UC pack if needed or supply the remaining power directly to the powerful electric motor. This way, we'll get the benefit of efficient UC extreme long life and low cost of NiMH battery.

"I do not believe in absolute statements."

Honda made a strong statement when they released three generations of IMA hybrids where electric motor power lagged severely(15x) behind ICE power while ignoring reducing emission. Track record speaks for itself. It does not require you to believe in it.

"Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it."

Fair enough. What kind of engineer? I am pretty certain that you are not an electrical engineer.

Dennis

motownusa · October 2004

http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/041019/1098199080_1.html

Very interesting article about the future of hybrids. Looks like Expedition, Suburbans and other dinosaur SUVs will go the way of the dinosaur.

larsb · October 2004

An article about Ethanol/Gasoline hybrid cars in Brazil:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/20/business/fuel.html

midnightcowboy · October 2004

"Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it."

Fair enough. What kind of engineer? I am pretty certain that you are not an electrical engineer.

Dennis

Be careful and kind how you pass judgements. All opinions are welcome and they are all just that OPINIONS . I seem to remember something about a 400% magnetic gain and about discounting a constant 33 Hp ICE loss in the Prius. LOL

I also tend to think like an engineer. BSEE, MBA if it matters.

YMMV,

MidCow

Kirstie_H · October 2004

Enough questioning each other's credentials. This is not a forum to decide who knows more than whom, or who has the most expertise.

I can give you my cast-iron guarantee that there will be no prizes for the "winner" here.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

midnightcowboy · October 2004

Thanks,
That was exactly my point!

midnightcowboy · October 2004

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/fool/20041019/bs_foo- l_fool/1098199080

Interesting article with above title.

Excerpt:

"A recent study done by consulting firm Booz Allen predicts that within five years, 20% of the cars on America's roads could be hybrids; within a decade, the percentage could reach 80%. Two popular hybrids now on the market that have nonhybrid analogs -- the Ford (NYSE: F - News) Escape and Honda Civic -- get as much as 50% better gas mileage than their nonhybrid counterparts. America currently accounts for 40% of worldwide gasoline sales. Multiply those numbers -- 20% x 50% x 40% -- and worldwide gasoline consumption could slow by 4% over the next five years and by 16% over the next dec"

Pretty amazing how economics works!

YMMV,

MidCow

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

"a constant 33 Hp ICE loss in the Prius...I also tend to think like an engineer. BSEE, MBA if it matters"

Then, you should know if electric generator add or subtract energy from ICE. The 34hp generator(MG1) takes away power from the ICE and pass it on to the electric motor. This is the equation:

76hp(ICE) - 34hp(ICE->MG1) + 34hp(MG1->MG2) + 34hp(Battery) = 110hp

If you disagree with this correct equation, please explain in detail.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

The result was the Prius Greensport, a 2004 Prius with the stock Hybrid Synergy Drive® system, plus a couple of modifications: bigger wheels and tires, and a change in gearing.

Prius Greensport claimed the first Bonneville hybrid production car speed record at 130.794 miles per hour with Aaron Robinson behind the wheel. Shigeyuki Hori, Toyota's Executive Chief Engineer for Prius, and Fumiaki Kobayashi, a Toyota Vice President, also had fast runs on the salt. Kobayashi says, "I think it is important that Prius has set the first hybrid-car speed record. We demonstrated that hybrids could exhibit high performance. It is important for us to challenge ourselves and the auto world to see what hybrids can do. Prius Greensport will inspire us to imagine new possibilities, and might challenge others to try Bonneville themselves."

http://www.toyota.com/hybridsynergyview/2004/october/bonneville.h- - - tml

Dennis

larsb · October 2004

Wait until they get that Hot Rod Honda Accord Hybrid out there next year - Prius can kiss the speed record adios !!!

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

76hp(ICE) - 34hp(ICE->MG1) + 34hp(MG1->MG2) + 34hp(Battery) = 110hp

"ROFLMA "

Seriously, care to explain why you are rolling on the floor? ;-D Couldn't come up with a better explanation?

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

I thought HAH 2005 is suppose to come out on Dec 2004. BTW, Honda has to pass strict rules to participate in this. I have no doubt that HAH can set a new hybrid speed record.

If you remember, Accord Diesel 2.2liter with 140hp set diesel speed record at 133mph. Prius ICE is only 76hp and can reach over 130mph. You see how big aerodynamics play at highspeed. That is a huge achievement in production cars.

Dennis

robertsmx · October 2004

Hang in there! The Accord Diesel was completely stock. There were more than couple of modifications, and "helping hands" required for the 131 mph run of the Prius...

- A different interior (passenger seat was replaced with tank for ice-cold water as a cooler to the cars electrical systems)
- Chassis dropped by a hefty five inches!
- Reshaped fenders to allow wider tires
- New shocks and springs (30 times stiffer than stock)
- Atkinson Cycle 1.5 replaced with Otto Cycle 1.5 (hah!) primarily to bump up the power output (about 125-130 HP total)
- The car was also pushed to 40 mph by a pickup since Toyota figured the batteries will run out of juice at 128 mph (and the course was going to be four mile long, the third mile being the timed mile)

European Prius comes with better suspension and 16" rims.

Prius (European or not), comes with a very basic suspension set up that is usually found in cheapest cars. If it were, indeed, better than double wishbones at all corners, Toyota should have used it in Lexus GS and LS. Honda (Accord and above) and Mercedes use unequal length double wishbone front, and 5-link double wishbone suspension rear.

Honda does use MacPherson Struts front and torsion beam axle rear (like Prius and Corolla) but only in its cheapest cars (based off global economy platform, like the Jazz). Here is a link that is better than relying on company PR to understand the basics of suspension set ups.

I have not seen many reviews of Toyota Prius in Europe, and the few that I have, rarely say anything about its handling. An excerpt from autoexpress (UK):

Fully charged, the Prius can travel a mere 2km on electric power before the engine cuts in to recharge the battery. Performance on the open road is reasonable, though the Prius gets noisy when you demand maximum acceleration, partly a result of the CVT automatic transmission. Government figures say it's more economical than most diesels, but we didn't find that on the road. Roomy, comfortable and very easy to drive, most models get a great JBL stereo. The boot sill is high and there is not as much luggage space as comparable cars, back seats up or down.

The same source on Accords ride quality:
There may not be a focussed Type-R version, but the Accord's wishbone suspension is tuned for a sporting drive, but not at the expense of ride comfort. It's an impressive set up, that provides good body control and should make for a relaxed long distance cruiser.

An excerpt from the same source on Civic Hybrid:
If you think a 1.3-litre engine in such a large car suggests a lack of power on the open road, think again. Because the electric motor is used to support the engine, boosting power to levels of far large engines - yet effectively, this is 'free' power as the motor is charged not from a mains source, but from energy regenerated when the car's braking. It's all exceedingly clever and works brilliantly in practice - nearly 58mpg is possible. 

Honda has to pass strict rules to participate in this

What rules? Here some related excerpt from an article in C&D:

"Since no one had ever taken a hybrid to Bonneville before, all Toyota had to do was show up and complete the timed mile twice. The average speed, whether it was 130 mph or 30, would be a record for hybrids. There was only one problem with the plan: The SCTA wouldn't publish a record without a class designation.

Bonneville's organizers have nothing against a car with two engines, especially one that only goes 104 mph. The Pigasus Racing streamliner run by C. Calvin Smitha streamliner is basically a syringe on wheelspacks two Oldsmobile V-8s and goes over 180 mph. But when Leininger began researching how a Prius might get into the SCTA record book, the picture wasn't good."

That being said, HAH wouldn't need massive modifications to go to almost 150 mph.

robertsmx · October 2004

As a consumer, I answered it from a buyer's point of view. It is not even clear how much 04 Prius battery cost so, your guess is as good as mine.

Fair enough. My question stemmed from your earlier argument on cost of batteries/ultra-capacitor pack. I guess now that is a mute point.

When a full hybrid(HSD) powertrain can output variable thrust at any speed, there is no need to worry about top end, bottom end, middle and somewhere in between.

There is a top end, bottom end and somewhere in between end regardless of transmission being used. Not too long ago, you came up with 110 HP for Prius. That would be its top end.

My calculations were based on current highest specific power NiMH modules

Why, and only for Euro Accord Hybrid, but not for other instances?

BTW, I hold a masters degree in electronics engineering.

Sylvia · October 2004

And now that we have everyone's resume on file, let's get back to Hybrids in the News....

robertsmx · October 2004

You scared everybody.

larsb · October 2004

Story about higher gas prices forcing more buyers to consider Hybrids:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0410/21/a01-310998.htm

rfruth · October 2004

And on the business front FedEx isn't going to let the proverbial grass grow under their feet - snip - FedEx Express is taking its hybrid electric trucks to New York City, where 10 were put on the streets Wednesday in time for the holiday shopping season
http://memphis.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/2004/10/18/daily17- - .html

rfruth · October 2004

GM isn't done and neither am I - snip - Oahu Transit Services, together with the City and County of Honolulu, Department of Transportation Services set a significant environmental example this week by adding 10 hybrid buses to its mass transit fleet. Honolulu joins the growing ranks of communities investing in transit buses powered by General Motor's hybrid technology, which offers up to 60 percent greater fuel economy and up to 90 percent cleaner emissions than conventional diesel buses. http://tinyurl.com/4sav9

rfruth · October 2004

Here come the diesels, bring on the ULED ! -snip - As we all go diesel crazy Volkswagen has expanded its turbodiesel offerings in the expanding luxury sector of the new car market. The widespread acceptance of diesel-powered vehicles is increasingly evident in the upper echelons of the market, with Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz all enjoying record sales of oil-burning versions of their most luxurious limousines.

http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news20/

frank49g · October 2004

This article explains what the hold-up is on putting the California HOV access law into effect, and what's being done about it. Hybrid drivers may want to write their Congressional reps. after the election.

http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=25670

backy · October 2004

A reminder that one can't trust everything we see in print; even journalists make mistakes sometimes:

http://www.boston.com/cars/news/october/07_hybrid.html

larsb · October 2004

I must have missed the mistake? Where was it?

http://www.boston.com/cars/news/october/07_hybrid.html

backy · October 2004

Look at the photo.

larsb · October 2004

that's not a 2005 Prius?

gagrice · October 2004

What is it? I'm waiting with baited breath...

backy · October 2004

C'mon, gang! You can't tell a '04-'05 Prius from the previous generation??

gagrice · October 2004

C'mon, gang! You can't tell a '04-'05 Prius from the previous generation??

I guess to the media "you've seen one Prius you've seen em all" Personally other than the one I drove in 2000 I have not seen but a handful here in San Diego...

railroadjames · October 2004

Take note of the particular picture used. It was such that the angle of the shot might have simply been deceiving. Or...maybe the guy that included it had less than our level of expertice & know-
ledge of hybrids. One thing for sure....The Prius is a sight to behold (am I drooling?) Yes I obviously own one nicknamed BLEWBYU and as the fuel prices escalate I "smile".
Culliganman (on sabatication) (thats a term I coined by crossing sabatical/vacation) you like?
I dislike the word retired..ech!Maybe older does gain wisdom. Buying the Prius has made me feel like a kid w/ my 1st car.

backy · October 2004

Or...maybe the guy that included it had less than our level of expertice & know-
ledge of hybrids.

Maybe. But the guy (or gal) who put the picture into the article is paid to do that, and made a mistake. No biggie, folks. It's just a cautionary about treating everything we see in print as fact.

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

A huge difference.

Dennis

gagrice · October 2004

What year is the one in the mag article? It does not look like the 2000 I drove. The body style is closer to the 2004 than the classic. i'll bet it is an artist's drawing of the 2004 Prius... I like the wheels better than the one in the other picture...

usbseawolf2000 · October 2004

"What year is the one in the mag article?"

The pic in the article is 2001-2003 US Prius. Maybe you test drove one of these soup up classic Prius. ;-D

Dennis

gagrice · October 2004

It was four years ago, so maybe I just don't remember it that well. I guess the early ones were built on the Echo chassis. It did not look like your pictures for sure...Is that a show car?

larsb · October 2004

Another misinformed reporter:

"Jim Weasel, sales manager at Howard Cooper Honda in Ann Arbor, said the Honda Civic hybrid was introduced in 1999 as a two-door. Two years later, the four-door make its debut and in December, the company expects to launch a V-6 Accord Honda hybrid. Customers, he said, wanted a hybrid that was bigger."

http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-3/109906417- 319450.xml

larsb · October 2004

Good but basic info on Accord Hybrid and a list of all the Hybrids and their horsepower and 0-60 ratings...:

http://www.newsday.com/business/columnists/ny-bzhyb294022589oct29- ,0,7994412.column?coll=ny-business-columnists

larsb · October 2004

Gas $5 a gallon by 2010 ?

http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/102904/a0729peakoil.html

midnightcowboy · October 2004

Interesting math?

It is stated that the HAH is .5 seconds quicker 0-60 mph than the normal ICE Accord V6.

The normal ICE Accord V6 has a 0-60 mph time of approximately 7.0 seconds and is correctly stated in the article.

The HAH is one-half second faster (0.5) seconds less.

Instead of subtracting 0.5 seconds to get a time of 6.5 seconds, they added 0.5 seconds to obtain a 7.5 seconds.

I don't blame this reporter because almost everything he reported was from previous articles.

YMMV,

MidCow

rfruth · November 2004

The proof is in the pudding - snip - Number of hybrid vehicles sold nationwide expected to double in 2005 http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/business/10059777.htm

larsb · November 2004

That article has a lot of misleading or flat out incorrect statements. Here is the first one:

"The electric motor runs at low speeds, which makes the car more fuel efficient with reduced emissions. The gas engine kicks in during highway driving."

That's "sort of" true with the Prius, but not with the Honda hybrids, where the elec is an assist and never runs alone. But the "gas engine kicking it at highway speeds" is just flat wrong for all hybrids - the gas engine "kicks in" way before highway speeds, at 1 mph with the Hondas.

And another:

"David Komaee, sales manager with Walsh Honda, said that next spring Honda will unveil a six-cylinder hybrid Accord with a 255 horsepower engine instead of 240 horsepower. It will sell for about $30,000, which is about $3,000 more than the regular Accord, he said."

Actually, it's DEC 2004 (next month) not next Spring when the Accord will be available.

Oh, I long for the days when ACTUAL EDITORS actually checked facts........:(

rfruth · November 2004

I doubt the Macon Telegraph.com is known for its technical automotive analysis, the gist of the article is there will be more hybrids next year than there are this year (they say "expected to double " but you can bet that won't turn out to be the correct)

larsb · November 2004

Toyota's Hybrid total sales number impressive:

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=4&id=317517

motownusa · November 2004

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1518&ncid- =1518&e=11&u=/afp/20041030/bs_afp/japan_auto_toyota_gm_us- _company_041030084924

Toyota could surpass GM as the largest auto company by 06. I bet the strong demand for hybrids is one of the reason Toyota will produce 8.4 million vehicle by 2006. Looks like the "big three" don't look so big anymore.

gagrice · November 2004

I bet the strong demand for hybrids is one of the reason Toyota will produce 8.4 million vehicle by 2006.

I'll bet the hybrids are not even a blip on their radar screen. They are having perceived problems in delivering the hybrids they have already sold. I don't think they want that as a big part of the global picture. They don't make enough money on hybrids to justify expanding to the demand. If we as Americans that are worried about losing our high paid Union jobs to foriegn companies would quit buying Toyota's and Honda's we would see them building more factories in the US and paying decent wages in the existing US factories.

rfruth · November 2004

One of the headlines on wardsauto.com for Nov 3 rd is "DC Experiments with Hybrid Sprinter Van" so I select that story and am redirected to the subscribers page, anyone a subscriber to wardsauto cause I'm not.

rfruth · November 2004

Could George W. help deliver the cars some of us can only dream of ? - note to Townhall Host, I'm not trying to drag politics into this & the Motor Trend article doesn't even mention hybrids till page 2 but it is about fuel-economy and alternative-fuels ... - snip - George Bush, an oilman, could wind up a sort of fuel-economy and alternative-fuel president.

http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news47/

Hybrids in the News

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