The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

falconone · November 2005

Wait for the 2008 Prius or some other hybrid. By then they'll be using LiOn (hopefully).

calidave · November 2005

I can't wait until we can "plug in" a Prius (or 400H) and increase reliance on the battery over the engine.

misterme · November 2005

"what happens to the battery should a hybrid be struck so that the battery is impacted"
First, the battery connection is automatically terminated, stopping flow of high voltage.
Second, the Nimh batteries are non-toxic and non-hazardous.
Third, yes Nimh batteries are recyclable and Toyota has done this, I believe Honda has as well.

Upcoming batteries? Fuel Cell rings in my mind. Prius stands to benefit most from this.

Battery R&D is fast paced and very compeditive, especially these days.

zoomzoooom · November 2005

A company called Valence uses phosphate based lithium-ion technology called Saphion. Phosphate is not as environmentally unfriendly as heavy metals. Nor does it share the characteristic that other Li-ion batteries have in causing "thermal runaway" if ignited via a crash or short circuit. Essentially, the phosphate that is incorparated is equivalent to ordinary rust. Valence touts several advantages for its batteries -- lower weight, greater longevity and reduced hazard potential -- that make it ideal for hybrid use.

zoomzoooom · November 2005

The company I mentioned with the phosphate li-ion batteries showed off a Toyota Prius-based concept "plug-in" hybrid at an annual hybrid event earlier in the year. Another company, EnergyCS, did the conversion of the plug-concept car, with Valence's battery powering twice the run-time of lead-acid batteries and clocking a fuel efficiency that reached 125+ miles per gallon! http://www.valence.com/readnews.asp?page=PR_032905.htm&p=1

falconone · November 2005

What I am about to post will certainly energize this thread again.

I read the eBrochure from Toyota for the 06 model Prius. There are numerous errors in there, but THIS is not.

They claim that the traction battery will last at least 150,000 miles. This is contrary to what they've stated in the past. In the past, they said they expect it to last the life of the vehicle. Granted it would take me ten years to reach that 150k milestone, but I am wondering what the replacement cost, if needed would be. Granted this has been rehashed many times. If it is ~2k, I can live with that. Anything over that would be pushing it.

As we know now, all eyes in the automotive world are on Hybrids. If Toyota screws up and people have to start shelling out big bucks for batteries, you can kiss hybrids goodbye. Hopefully that will not be the case. Next few years should be interesting.

gagrice · November 2005

They claim that the traction battery will last at least 150,000 miles.

If the battery lasts 10 years and 150k miles that is not bad. If it only lasts 5 years and 150k miles that is a different story. I don't believe you will ever see a $2000 traction battery. Batteries are not and have not gone down in price while maintaining high quality. You can buy cheap batteries and that is what they are, junk. In the telecommunications business we are paying more now for industrial batteries than in the past. Unless someone comes up with a cheap material for batteries I think it will be the limiting factor for hybrids.

falconone · November 2005

What is interesting is that there are HIGH mileage hybrids out there that have not needed new batteries. I can't imagine how they expect this technology to be embraced if indeed people will have to shell out 5-6grand after 150k miles. Perhaps that 150k number is a conservative estimate. I guess we'll have to be patient. With over 100,000 04 and 05 Prius roaming the US, we will have data to analyze soon. That IS350 is looking pretty nice now!

gagrice · November 2005

That IS350 is looking pretty nice now!

How about the IS250 with AWD? They are really small aren't they? The Prius would be huge along side the IS350.

falconone · November 2005

The IS is 3 inches longer than the Prius. The wheelbase is only 1.5 inches greater. The IS250 AWD is a bargain with the equipment level. MUCH better than the A4. The IS350 is very fast compared to the IS250, but RWD in the NE is not too good. I've learned my lesson with previous Mercedes. My C230 is useless in the snow.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

How much the hybrid approach advances is contingent on advances in battery technology.

It's aiming high, but batteries that charge faster, deliver more power for longer periods of time, cost less, and are safer to dispose of or easier to recycle would be the target.

gagrice · November 2005

How much the hybrid approach advances is contingent on advances in battery technology.

I am in complete agreement. It seems each new battery technology is more expensive. NiMH is more costly than Lead Acid. Li-ion is more expensive than NiMH. Nicad was never considered for hybrids that I know of. A real break through is needed for a company like Toyota to make all their vehicles available as hybrids. They cannot keep up with the demand for parts with just 3 hybrid vehicles.

falconone · November 2005

I wonder what they're going to do when they introduce the Camry hybrid. If there is overwhelming demand, they're in deep doo doo. I doubt that will be the case. They're in an enviable position now. GM only wishes they had waiting lists for their cars. Gotta love it!!

larsb · November 2005

They have a plant readying in Tokyo City right now which will produce a Prius per minute.

So they have the "parts issue" well in hand - they are just not "tipping their hand" to the public and thus to their competitors.

The Camry hybrid, being a 4-cyl, will be VASTLY popular, as long as they don't make it high end, which I feel that they will not do, because I think they learned from Honda's Accord Hybrid that the "high-end V6 family car hybrid" is not that appealing to enough people.

They will meet their battery and hybrid parts needs - they are TOYOTA, with 30+ billion DOLLARS in the bank !!!

:shades:

falconone · November 2005

Just an FYI...that there was a fire in one of their plants in Japan. I think it is going to be closed down for a week. I don't know more on the particulars, but will post a link if I can find one.

larsb · November 2005

The fire did not sound like it was the new plant, because it was a "working plant" from the story I saw....

gagrice · November 2005

They will meet their battery and hybrid parts needs - they are TOYOTA

Tell that to this Prius owner with his car in the shop for almost a month now waiting on parts.

billkmg, "Toyota Prius Software Problems" #611, 21 Nov 2005 8:44 pm

larsb · November 2005

Not unusual to wait on a part for a Japanese or European car - that's just not that big a deal.

Means nothing at all in the context of what we are talking about.

http://www.the-best-source.com/Toyota/Toyota-PRIUS-Parts.html

http://www.drivewire.com/toyotaparts/2000-2003toyotaprius.html

http://www.partstrain.com/ShopByDepartment/Exhaust/TOYOTA/PRIUS

falconone · November 2005

Larsb..from what I read, parts should not be an issue. Unfortunately some inept techs have had to order new ECUs because they used a flawed scantool version. I don't want to post the entire story here as it is very technical (was on a Prius board).

Gary... I think Toyota has a good game plan. I'd be more worried about GM and their big parts supplier (delphi) that is threatening to strike. It seems every day I am reading doom and gloom news regarding GM. Surprising coming from liberal press sources.

gagrice · November 2005

Means nothing at all in the context of what we are talking about.

It means nothing if they give him a loaner for the whole time. From what I hear Toyota and Honda are not big on loaners. You should check your links more carefully. I just pulled up the first one and asked for a few common parts like for brakes and exhaust. They do not have any parts for the Prius. I guess it is back to waiting. You are a lot more patient than I would be. I would be screaming to the state attorney general if they did not have parts for a car that new. There are laws requiring the manufacturer to keep parts for a given vehicle for at least 7 years. I thought the Japanese had gotten better since the 1970s when you had to wait for parts. No improvement.

gagrice · November 2005

I'd be more worried about GM and their big parts supplier

Not to worry. It is only Japanese dealers that do not have parts. They bought into the myth that their cars don't break.

You blame a lot on the techs. Maybe Toyota & the dealers should be giving them decent training on all this high tech stuff they are selling. I can tell you from experience electronics fail. I don't care how good they are supposed to be. We are getting crap electronics from the best manufacturers. Add to that lousy tech support. I feel sorry for the poor [non-permissible content removed] at the agency trying to fix a car that does not have any symptoms only sporadic failures. And it is not just Toyota or hybrids. It is industry wide, and will get worse as they try to cut costs.

falconone · November 2005

Well... we're revisiting something we've touched on before. It definitely is not a myth that the Asian electronics seem MORE reliable than the German electronics. Even American cars seem more reliable with respect to electronics. It definitely is pervasive and NOT just with Toyota. As cars get more sophisticated, things will get even more dicey. Makes me just want to go out and buy a Yaris. Simple basic reliable transportation. This is why GM cars appear more reliable. They don't have any of the fancy electronics that keep appearing on other brands.

Now back to batteries.....

I wonder how Toyota "bench tested" a battery and claimed it would last ~150,000 miles. Does it automatically just fail or diminish over time? Does it start to diminish around ~150k miles? Is the car still driveable with diminished battery capacity? I still think you're wrong about the battery cost. What will happen to the 100s of thousands of Toyota/Lexus hybrids when their batteries expire? Will people just junk them? I really am looking forward to this.

IS250 AWD... I requested a quote. FYI... 8" LESS legroom than a Prius. Only 13 cubic foot trunk. I still like it.

gagrice · November 2005

Does it automatically just fail or diminish over time?

I would say time is a big enemy of batteries. However we have big lead acid batteries that are 20+ years old and still working good. As long as they do not get totally discharged and or overcharged they may last a long time. It sounds like Toyota will take them back. There has to be elements that are usable again. Freezing a discharged lead acid battery is certain destruction. Not sure about the other types.

And I agree that European electronics are not as reliable as American or Japanese. The problem is very little is actually made in the US or Japan. Look at a printed circuit board sometime. It includes half the countries in the world on the different components.

falconone · November 2005

Quite true. Many of those circuit boards are made in Taiwan and other Far East countries. As to the Toyota packs, we all know they're computer controlled which certainly increases their longevity. Since some of those cabs in BC have high mileage, I haven't heard of any failures. I know someone who bought one for $200 on eBay and he claims he is keeping it "just in case". I don't follow the logic because I would imagine the pack just sitting with degrade over time.

toyolla2 · November 2005

Longevity of a 6 X 28 cell battery pack is also reliant on the consistency of manufacture of each cell. This is very hard to achieve with the chemistry employed by these hi-energy devices. Electrolytic capacitors which are also available in similar beer can sizes are typically quoted with a +50% -20% tolerance which may lead some to enquire whether the manufacturers of these devices really know what they are doing ! And this with computer control in the membrane coating process I am told.

The needed breakthrough to make batteries cheaper is to use fewer cells but make them larger so that replacement of a failed 7.2v module could be accomplished with screw terminals which is not practical for the smaller modules currently used. Case in point - the 500W UPS which powers the servers in most companies will give 8 minutes of backup @ 110v yet runs off a 6 volt 11AH sealed lead acid.

Systemwise, with cars, it is more convenient (and of course cheaper) to utilize a storage voltage closer to that used by the motors. This removes the potential problem of moving electrical power back and forth from lower voltage storage systems and gives the problem to the battery guys who must now build a high voltage storage system to suit.

Time will tell on that decision. I am not blind to the fact that transforming 22kw will give issues not seen at the 500w level by the UPS designers. But should significant numbers of Prius II owners find themselves forking out $2000 or more because one tiny cell (in one particular module) out of 168 cells just went south, I for one will be going Hmmmm.
T2

falconone · November 2005

Well.. we have a perfect sample rolling down our roads everyday now. You would have thought that there would be a few failures by now.

calidave · November 2005

by falconone Nov 23, 2005 (5:59 pm)
It seems every day I am reading doom and gloom news regarding GM. Surprising coming from liberal press sources.

I'm not sure why you say the press sources are 'liberal." When's the last time you saw an editorial defending the unions in your paper? The press is far from "liberal." All we hear from the press is that companies are failing becuase of union costs. I'd hardly call that "liberal."

falconone · November 2005

Pick up a copy of Long Island Newsday and compare it to the NY Post. The press is overwhelming LIBERAL.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

...and leave the debate over the press for other places online.

looking4prius · November 2005

1) Regardless of hybrid model, the batteries last a good long time.

2) There is some concern regarding batteries and safety. Some go so far as to nix batteries (and hence hybrid vehicles) altogether, but this may be throwing out the baby with the bath water...

3) Replacing batteries, regardless of hybrid model, will not be cheap. But, then again, replacing the engine in a non-hybrid wouldn't be cheap, either.

4) Batteries store energy from braking (along with recharging). One of the big things of the hybrid is to be able to recapture this braking energy that otherwise would be lost.

5) There is further development regarding battery makeup, charge time, etc. that will make future hybrids more economical.

6) Some people are scared of batteries powering hybrids. They fear the toxic byproducts more than they appreciate the long-term benefits of such attempts at conservation.

7) Some people will not like electric cars, period!

explorerx4 · December 2005

if the priius is not started for a while, say a month or more, there may be a problem getting it started.
the reason i am asking is that there are at least 15 sitting the state motor pool staging lot next to where i work. they have been there for a few weeks.
i'm sure it was part of using up the current budget (use it or lose it).
i would hate to have it cost the state more money to get them 'revived'.

falconone · December 2005

My sister and brother-in-law didn't start their Prius for nearly a month last winter (long cruise and stayed in FL). They disabled the smart key and it started right up. Pretty nice. I am sure if it was for two months there may be an issue. A jump is no big deal. Since it requires so little amperage, it's much easier to start than a regular vehicle.

heyjewel · December 2005

Perhaps you should look at this message:

googsie, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #409, 4 Dec 2005 5:24 pm

falconone · December 2005

2002 Prius is NOT the same as the 2004. If you do a google search you will find many, many 04+ Prius owners who have left their cars for many, many weeks without ANY issues. If you are concerned, get a solar trickle charger. Do a google and find some Prius forums and do a search. You'll be quite surprised! The Prius is truly an AWESOME automobile. Best thing... it gets MUCH better than 12 MPG

gagrice · December 2005

Under the campaign, known at Toyota as the 40G program, owners of Prius models from 2001 through 2003 were warned that the high-voltage battery could leak electrolyte, the liquid that helps create electricity.

A leak in the high-voltage battery is potentially serious. Electrolyte's main component is potassium hydroxide, a potent base rated as a "high" health hazard by independent laboratories. One measure of the care Toyota tries to exercise over the Prius is the company's Emergency Response Guide, which has 23 pages of information distributed to emergency service personnel. Among other issues, a vehicle fire can emit toxic gases.

Prius fires

falconone · December 2005

Well over 500,000 on the road! I read about a few of the new beetles catching fire. I wonder if that made the 6:00 news. Amazing,,,, the Prius after being introduced in Oct 2003 STILL has waiting lists. What other car in recent history has had this much success. Way too many jealous folks out there!!!

jsampson4 · December 2005

I too have wondered about hidden cost w/the prius battery. I was not looking forward to the thought of forking out a few thousand $ for a new battery in 10 years. However, today I read that the president of toyota in japan announced the overall cost for the prius will significantly decrease in 2008 due to planned improvements-including, yes, a new cost efficient design for a battery.
:confuse: I was wondering, will that new battery be adaptable for the older models? If so, that would be great! Does anyone know?

PF_Flyer · December 2005

Backwards compatability would be nice! I think we're still in the leading edge of the hybrid technology. Still plenty of room for improvements and cost reductions.

eaa · December 2005

The best news is all Hybrids are going to start using Lithium batteries by 2010 or before. They are lighter, last longer and the costs should drop fater than the NiMH. Toyota among others agree they are the wave of the next gen hybrids.
The Edrive calcars Prius + plugin hybrid uses a larger battery pack of Lithium batteries to get 100+ mpg.
Jim

zoomzoooom · January 2006

I believe the E-drive plugin concept car uses Valence Technology's U-Charge li-ion batteries. They've used this battery to help a couple of companies extend the range of operation for things such as electric taxis, buses, and military vehicles.

veggiebob · January 2006

I have heard on radio talk and read in the paper when discussing hybrids that when the battery's go, it's expensive and "all" of the batteries must be replaced.

Is this true ? my opinion is not all batteries would fail at once. What are you experience with battery changes.

Thanks,
Bob

calidave · January 2006

what does "expensive" mean?

if someone has an opinion on an issue and tells me "it is gonna be expensive," but they can't quote me an actual dollar amount, that is proof to me that they are simply biased and are blowing smoke. No credibility. (am not saying YOU have no cred, Bob. Just the guys who are spewing without giving facts)

midnightcowboy · January 2006

Search the Prius 2004+ thread battery life and costs have been dicussed in great excruciating detail.

Edmunds has very good search engines

imidazol97 · January 2006

I read there was a CBS news story last night about the Prius' not getting near the mileage advertised. Does anyone know where this might be linked online here? I looked at the CBS pages...

PF_Flyer · January 2006

The place to discuss hybrid mileage and expectations would be in the Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected? discussion

traveler8 · January 2006

In Newsweek magazine an article on tax tips about the credit for hybrids also mentioned the batteries cost $10,000 to replace. I went to my local Toyota dealer today to ask. They said the old battery did cost $10,000 to replace. However the new battery could be replaced 1 cell at a time costing $500 per cell. I did not ask how many cells were in the battery. I would also guess that within a matter of months all cells may need to be replaced once one failed. This is a concern for me as my current Previa is 12 1/2 years old and has 233,000 miles and runs like a top. I keep a car for a long time.

john1701a · January 2006

> They said the old battery did cost $10,000 to replace.

And the Original model Prius had a production cost of about $37,000. So what the heck does that have to do with the third generation now available?

A handful of Classic model Prius in North America have already exceeded 200,000 miles with same battery-pack they started with. So the worries steming from experiences with deep-discharge devices are proving to have absolutely no merit when it comes to a hybrid that prevents the deep-discharges.

In short, the need for replacement is unlikely.

Also note now the "full" hybrid systems routinely power their electric motors without even using the battery-pack. Electricity is generated for immediate use by the gas engine.

JOHN

midnightcowboy · January 2006

Prius JOHN has spoken:

"In short, the need for replacement is unlikely. "

This discussion can now finally come to an end, there we be no foreseeable battery replacement required. So the effective cost is ZERO DOLLARS $0.00

A Shifting Man,

MidCow

gagrice · January 2006

This discussion can now finally come to an end

I think it is just starting. People are getting high mileage on their hybrids and the complexity is rearing it's ugly head.

Brentbridge posted:

139,000 miles- IMA light comes on. Honda says the battery is dying and needs to be replaced.

brentbridge, "Honda Civic Hybrid Owners: Problems & Solutions" #452, 18 Jan 2006 9:02 am

larsb · January 2006

the percentage of replaced batteries is hovering around .0000001% about now.

The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

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