Audi A4 2005+

byronwalter · December 2005

Wow!... I hadn't considered that as my '06 has just about everything but the girl... I mean nav.

That is a shame but just goes to show that you really have to do your homework. This current gen A4 is much improved over the previous generation in virtually every respect. Perhaps the dealer will be willing to work with him on another A4 with the tech pack.

Best of luck

Byron

nyccarguy · December 2005

It isn't as obscure as you think for a clutch to burn out with so little mileage on it. It has happened before. A valet on his (or her) first night could do some real damage. A poster on the BMW 5 series board who has very similar stick driving credentials to you had to have the clutch replaced at 14,000 miles on his 530i. It wqas just a freak thing. I recently replaced the clutch on my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH after only 53,000 miles. The forst half of my car's life was spent in lots of bumper to bumper traffic, city driving, on and off the clutch while parallel parking... when I lived in NYC.

rjlaero · December 2005

I was going to mention that as well. That's a nice feature and it's a shame after so many years that Audi took it out for 2006, and you have to order the technology package to get it.

The trip computer should be part of the premium package.

macmurdo · December 2005

Hi again... looking for expertise on something that my instinct tells me is a big deal...

I bought my 2005.5 A4 2.0T Q Auto in May. Have been driving it and apart from a few rattles and squeaks, it has been great. It has adapted to my style of driving, and I barely notice the tip lag that was such a pain initially.

Now, yesterday, I'm driving from A to B, using the manual shift mode as I often do, when out of the blue, it goes into "fail safe mode"... Changes to automatic, and the "gear selector" display goes to red background with all capital letter indicators... doesn't even tell you which you're driving in.

I thought this was probably something major, although the car continued to drive normally, and as soon as I arrived at B (10 minutes later). Turned it off, opened the manual and called the dealership. Turns out they are swamped today, and although they want me to bring the car in, they don't have a replacement audi, and we're expecting a winter storm tomorrow!! So needless to say, I drove it to work today. Now here is the bizarre thing, after I finished at B last evening, I started the car, and it was still in fail safe mode initially, but within 5 minutes it had gone back to normal, and yes the tiptronic system worked fine. No problems this morning on my drive to work.

Has anyone experienced this problem?? Does anyone have any ideas... I guess I best take it in anyway....

cbymene · December 2005

I just made a deposit on a manual pre-owed 2005 A4 2.0T (the newer model, the FSI one). The car only has 82 miles. My friend test drove the car for me and he said the car was smooth. After we got back to the dealer and popped the hood, the engine sounded kind of loud. It has some kind of  metal knocking metal sound. We asked the dealer and he said it is normal. Then he offered to pop another one (new 2.0T Quattro). It sounded loud too but didt have that shape metal knocking sound. So is it normal? The car is new. We asked the dealer how the car was used. (They said the car was Corporate Demo) But he isnt sure the history of the car neither. He said it might be used in the car show, picture models, stuff like that. I worried perhaps the engine was screwed by the ppl who test drove it. Thus, my main concern is the weird sound from the engine. Any clue? Thx

markcincinnati · December 2005

82 miles? A good deal? Well, it will have full protection and maint. Is it a good deal?

I would take it based only on what you have written.

06a4 · December 2005

I also am disappointed that my new a4 does not have the trip computer. The salesman told me that it did. They were so confused at the dealership that they told me that the button on the ww arm had not been installed on that particlur car and they would order a new one if I would buy the car. latter they found out the trip computer was no longer standard without the $1800 tech package.

onkloud9 · December 2005

I'm 95% sure that the sound is normal. It may have been louder because the engine wasn't fully warmed up? When you do a cold start, does the engine almost sound like a muffeled diesel? If so, its normal and nothing to be alarmed about.

onkloud9 · December 2005

If I were you, I would complain to AoA. Dealers are not very forgiving on situations like these. You really have to pull some teeth to get some sort of compensation for their ignorance.

Call AoA. Even send them a letter via certified mail. If they have it on record, they will be willing to work something out.

I've had 2 situations with AoA and both had positive outcomes:

My car had a check engine light a few weeks after I first got it. It turned out to be a small plastic valve (or so they told me) that needed replacing. No biggie, except the Service Department was waiting on Parts to receive it from Canada. So I went chugging along in a 2003 A6 loaner for about 3 weeks before I got my car back. A6's aren't bad, but it really started to irritate me that I couldn't drive my new car after 6 months of car shopping. After I got my car back, I complained to the Dealer Manager. He did nothing except pass the buck to AoA (lame). I called AoA and within 15 minutes got one month lease payment credited. Pretty fair if you ask me.

On another note, I had ordered a front plate filler usually reserved for states that do not require a front license plate (I live in Cali). It gives the car a much more cleaner/Euro look. Anyways, since my car had the s-line package and therefore a different grill, Parts Department had to call Germany for this plate (BTW, the front plate filler from the S4 would have fit just fine, dunno why the Parts Department didn't compute that even after I suggested it). Part cost was 70 bucks. Parts even told me that they could get it shipped within a week if I paid for Express Shipping (biggest bunch of BS I have heard) which was 20 bucks. A month rolls by, and the parts department gives me a lame excuse, that the part they received was defective. OK, so I waited for another month, still no front plate filler! I went to the parts department, got into an argument with the Parts Manager there, and stormed out. They said they could not refund my money (not even the "Express Shipping" charge) because the part was a special order. I got on the phone with AoA. Three business days later, the Parts Department suddenly has my part and the Manager who I had got into an argument with quietly refunds the shipping charge.

The kicker: Right afterwards, I asked the Service Department how much it would cost to install the plate. $150 bucks! I went to Auto-zone and bought a Torx screwdriver for $5.

By the way, my car has had no problems since. Dealerships suck for the most part (especially mine), but AoA redeemed itself for their quick response to my problems.

rjlaero · December 2005

Those front panel plates screw off in less than 2 minutes w/ a phillips head screwdriver. A 10 year old kid could do it. It's crazy that a dealer would charge you $150 in labor to do that.

The S line grill is indeed different than the regular ones, and those filler plates cannot be swapped out with the regular cars.

macmurdo · December 2005

Hi again... I'm in a 6 month relationship with a 2005.5 A4Q with Auto/Tip transmission.

Early in our experience, (I posted this some time ago) made a strange metallic buzzing noise, only at certain RPMs... this resulted in my dealer replacing my differential after only 2 weeks of driving. Guess what... the noise came back. Finally after several months of putting up with this, I made the lead tech go driving with me... within 5 minutes he had found the problem, a loose trim piece around the shifter (I have the aluminum trim). He pushed it hard, it went "click" and I have not heard that noise since.

Now, lately, particularly on cold mornings right after starting and while it's idling a little rough, there is a rattle that seems to be coming from the windshield... is it possible that the windshield is loose?? It doesn't feel like it when I push on it... and its hard to drive and push on the windshield to try to stop the noise... any thoughts??

Also, very annoying... when I'm coming to a stop, or sometimes going over bumpy road, there is a kind of creaking/clicking noise that sounds like it is coming from the console, but it doesn't stop when I apply pressure. A couple of times I've thought the sound was actually coming from my seatback, because it seemed to happen/change when I changed positions in the seat. The seat has a little play, but I assume that's normal. Any ideas on this one??

I know this sounds a little petty... but I left a beauty of a car (2002 Lexus GS) to move to Audi. I never once felt/heard any unusual noises in my Lexus. I guess I'm sound sensitive, but I really think this is too much. Am I over-reacting, are all A4s like mine, making little noises all the time? or is this something that I should bring to the dealer???

Sorry to be so long winded... just really frustrated!

jmg001 · December 2005

Almost all of my miles are highway.
It turns out the problem with the Audi was much more then just the clutch. The 1/2 inch steel plate below the clutch broke in half, the clutch went and the steel plate acted like a saw and cut the transmission. Audi repaired it all, but they treated me like dirt. I have never had so many problems with any car including my still operable 1995 Acura Integra, which I still own. I find it hard to believe that a valet can cause so much damage in a few minutes of time. Since they couldn't blame me directly I have to wonder if the steel plate was defective.

phollollos4 · January 2006

I can't tell you what might have caused it (yet). This just happened to me last night but with a slightly different twist. I own a 2004 S4/Tiptronic V8 30k mi. I started the car threw the shifter in reverse and proceeded to back up a driveway on a grade. The car shuttered at first as if the parking brake were still on. I checked and the parking brake was not on nor was it sticking. So I tried again, gunned the engine, the shuttering gave way to the sensation of bad clutch slippage but the car moved and made it up the small hill. At the moment the shuttering stopped the inverse lighting on the control panel lit up (Failsafe mode) and my check engine light came on.

I shut it off and started it again. As long as I drive forward tiptronic works fine in manual mode etc. As soon as I use reverse it jumps to failsafe mode. Check engine light is persistent.

I was out of town so I called Audi Roadside Assist and they towed it to the nearest dealer. When I hear something more I will post back.

onkloud9 · January 2006

For those of you who are interested, I found a few TSB's and complaints with the B7 A4:

ledname · January 2006

Quick NAV question...I am looking at the A4 on the web and was wondering if the NAV has a touch screen or if you must use the little joystick that is in the pictures.

Thanks!

rjlaero · January 2006

No touch screen in any of Audi's nav systems right now. You have to use the MMI knob. But it's not a "jostick" like an I drive. It only moves side to side and you press the center button to complete the task.

macmurdo · January 2006

Actually it doesn't move at all. It is a knob and it functions like a dial to select what is on the screen. As noted, you select by depressing the knob. The 4 buttons around the knob are also used to navigate the menus. It's really pretty intuitive once used a few times.

rjlaero · January 2006

Don't know if we're talking about the same thing. But the big round MMI knob DOES move side to side like a radio control. So it does move...just not like a joystick.

markcincinnati · January 2006

Maybe it is different on an A4, but the MMI knob rotates clockwise and counter clockwise, it can be depressed as well, it can not rock side to side or up and down like the idrive.

It is a selector dial, almost like a rotary phone dial that moves a mouse point around based on the mode you are in.

If this is wrong on the A4, and I would doubt it, I stand corrected.

It is easy to use, but touch and/or full voice would be the next best thing IMHO.

I have voice and I find it quite easy and friendly, it just needs a few more things that it can control to really move it forward.

I especially appreciate the phone commands and radio commands avail via voice.

rjlaero · January 2006

Mark, You are correct. The MMI knob works the same for both the A4 and A6. It's just a matter of location of the knobs and buttons for the A4/A6. The DVD loads in the back for the A6, but the whole screen flips down in the A4. I like the Navplus on the A4 because it has SD slots for your MP3 files, and the A6 does not.

The A4 is technically called Nav Plus and is very similar to the A6 navigation system, but it is a little different in a few of the features.

macmurdo · January 2006

Mark... thank you for clarifying the action of the MMI knob, which is as you describe in the A4. It's probably just my thickness, but I still don't quite understand what rjlaero is referring to when he says it moves side to side...

As you stated in reiteration of my post, it rotates around a central axis, but has no lateral or vertical motion ability....

Why are we talking about this anyway??

wale_bate1 · January 2006

Mark & Co.:

A4 Avant 3.2 on the company site details no S-line pkg available, but Edmunds and carsdirect both show it as an option. Carsdirect shows only black as interior option on the Avant, regardless of exterior choice (S-Line black only?).

:confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

Insights y'all?

The lease rates are too good to ignore, even if the car wasn't part of the original equation...

markcincinnati · January 2006

Red SLine A4 sits on my dealer's showroom floor.

Sline is avail on A4 and A6 models -- I do not have a clue why the website doesn't list it.

Of course I always order my cars, so this is non issue for me. Beats me what the SLine inventory policy, if any, is.

wale_bate1 · January 2006

Thank you!

I'm ordering as well. I seriously doubt anyone would have my config in stock, and I'm getting far too "seasoned" to compromise...

markcincinnati · January 2006

Ordering is like getting a new car twice -- once when you place the order and of course when you pick it up.

Add to that the fact that the car is exactly, not almost exactly, but exactly like you want.

I wonder sometimes when I get in someone's "brand new" car and I ask them to show it off -- "this even has the fill in the blank, I didn't want it but it came with it;" or, "I wanted Silver with grey, but all they had was the black interior;" or, I wanted the stick shift but in the color I wanted all they had was an automatic. . . ." and so on.

Most of these folks are acquiring vehicles with MSRP's north of $40K -- the willingness to settle completely blows me away (at almost any price point, even.)

I wouldn't get an A3 if I couldn't get it the way I wanted it.

Now having said that, if I spec'd a car and said "I'll take it in either White or Blue -- but it must have an Ecru leather interior," and they met my request, I certainly wouldn't just order one to be ordering one.

Certain things are deal breakers -- increasingly almost everything is a deal breaker for me, the things that aren't I let them know about. Further they always know I have 3 or 4 months to wait so there is less impulse buying pressure applied by them to me or vice versa.

"What'l it take to get you to buy today?"

"Hmm, how about THAT car for $500 a month," pointing to a new S8, "with no money down."

"Oh."

:surprise:

dino001 · January 2006

Most of these folks are acquiring vehicles with MSRP's north of $40K -- the willingness to settle completely blows me away (at almost any price point, even.)

But you get a "great deal", dude

. Don't matter it has wrong engine, transmission and color, but it was $1000 off :sick:

Plus, chances are, you wan't like it as much, so you are more likely to start shopping sooner than later.

You and I know it is not really a good deal if it is not what you want. But most people don't really know what they want, so they get what's there.

wale_bate1 · January 2006

Agreed with all of the above.

Well, I'm set on (if I go this route) a 3.2 Tip with S-Line, Sunroof and Premium, rear bags and headlight squirts.

I don't need NAV or Bluetooth or Sat Radio or Parktronic or xenons and such. Gut says if it's on the lot with Premium and roof, it's going to carry most of the rest as well.

Hello S.O. hello!

adeberti · January 2006

My brother is thinking about getting an A4 avant (either the old model 1.8T or the brand new one 2.0T) so that he can bring around his dog(dane/husky mix) which is about 29 at the shoulder. Does anybody know the height of the cargo area(with the seats up)? Or do you think the dealer wont mind actually having the dog jump on the car(probably not on a used one)?

markcincinnati · January 2006

Navigation is hard to live without once you get it.

Sat radio will kill broadcast radio it is so good.

Go SO and you will be happy.

wale_bate1 · January 2006

I have NAV now. For the number of times it's really come in handy for me (maybe two), I don't need it. I drive mostly locally +- 10K miles a year. Maybe four times a year I'm out of the area on business in my car, but I know where I'm headed beforehand. What would be handy for me is a portable NAV since the majority of my trips are air travel with rental.

I don't listen to the radio much in the car. Occasionally the local news channel, but for music I'm pre-recorded and that's infrequent. I like to listen to my car. :shades:

The other one is the communication piece. I've made a point of distancing myself from 24/7 professional accessibility. If someone really needs me they can get me, but I make well known what I consider an "emergency"!

SO is me fo' sho!

dl7265 · January 2006

This won't be much help. But none of the brochures I have show that measurement. Id say take a tape to the dealer. not sure they would go for a "puppy test drive". Im guessing off the top of my head he'd be fine. Considering I cram my Grey( long legs) in the backseat of my E90 :surprise:

DL

jburleig · February 2006

I would be appreciative of any candid advice a seasoned Audi owner (or someone thoroughly knowledgeable of Audi's)could offer with respect whether purchasing a new A4 is a good choice as a car to own for 5+ years. I've seen confusing information. Overall, the Audi problems and solutions forum is rather disturbing. And, it's no secret that Audi is not a good performer in the JD power surveys. Yet, I notice that Consumer Reports classifies the A4 as recommended (meaning average or better than average reliability) and especially good with respect to crash protection.

What gives? Who is kidding who? I would love to hear some honest opinions from Audi owners (those with some real world experience with the A4 for at least a few years). I like the car, as well as the A6, in the showroom and test drives. It's the unknown that worries me a bit.

Thank you.

markcincinnati · February 2006

First Audi 1977.

Current Audi 2005 A6 3.2

Total number between company cars, wife's and mine = 28.

They have all had issues from time to time. Each newer one has been an improvement in this regard over the previous one.

I would want the car to be certified to 100,000 miles which is an Audi program called CPO-ing.

It is NOT required to CPO the car when you buy it, lease it. You need to CPO it, Oh, Say by 45,000+ miles.

You could lease the car, buy the car in cash or get the hybrid lease and get it for 15,000 miles per year, as you approached 45,000 miles you could determine if you wanted to keep the car and buy it out or walk away.

I am, some would say, blindly loyal. But I would not hesitate to acquire a new Audi product if I liked the features, functions and everything about the car's drive.

No car is perfect.

The Audis are "perfectly terrific" to drive however.

The Audi advantage protects you from $.$$ shocks though.

Can't name names, but try some of the Audi only blog sites that are out there. Two of them, at least, leap to mind as good sources for the kind of dialog you are hoping for.

I would expect the folks to be rabid -- in favor of Audis.

The new A4 2.0T just won another comparo test this month against some pretty impressive competition and it beat out the BMW 325xi.

Check out Road & Track.

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .despite my "blind" loyalty to Audi, in 2005, I became price aware and decided Audis were worth more than other cars -- but only a "little bit" more.

Since I lease, I tend to look at things in terms of Cap Cost, Cap Cost reduction, Residual, Money Factor and term.

An Audi A4 with Sunroof package and no negotiation is today $369/36 months. This is the 2.0T version.

I would shop price with competing cars.

At the time my wife turned coat from Audi to BMW, last May, her two final choices were a 2005.5 A4 3.2Q vs a 2005 BMW X3 3.0. In her case two things sewed it up in BMW's favor:

#1 The BMW could be had with a manual transmission

#3 The Audi was $44K and the BMW $47K and the Audi was $684/mo 36 mo with no Cap cost contribution on our part and the BMW was $581/mo 36 mo ditto no cost contribution on our part.

There was no #2.

Audi lost my wife as a customer probably due to the stick, but the choice would have been very difficult had their have been price parity. The $103 per mo less for a $3K more MSRP vehicle was just too much to take.

My guess is for $581, the Audi would have been a SERIOUS contender to the BMW, and for $576, the Audi out of sheer loyalty would've been darn near impossible to beat.

Such is life. :surprise:

dl7265 · February 2006

And now add another $600 to the pot. In my opinion they should have Reduced pricing about $600. After all, Besides Q and beautiful interiors Audi's were allways about the better Value.

In a area in North Dallas where every other car on the road is a Lux or Navigator the Audi is very obscure. Which for me would be great. But one has to worry about the sales...

DL

mariobgoode · February 2006

I had been driving stick shift Audi's since 1985. Drove the S5000, 90, A6Q 2.7T and now have the A4 2.0T, all manual. Last year, Audi did not offer a stick in the A6, so we settled for the A4. It was adequate, but lacked zip, so we looked around for other makers (Subaru, Volvo, Jaguar, etc.) who sell AWD cars with stick shifters, and found the BMW 330xi. We got our car last December, and my wife loves it from Day 1. She drives it exclusively, while I drive both alternately. I have to admit it, I prefer the 330 over the Audi in terms of performance. I realize the engines are different, and the bimmer costs more, but if Audi drops the manual from its car line, I'll be gone for good.

socala4 · February 2006

Don't take this as gospel, but I've owned an A4 since June (2.0 liter Turbo FWD with 6-speed manual), and did my homework about the car, so here's my take.

Firstly, you are certainly taking more of a risk with a European car than you would with a Japanese one, that I cannot deny. Simply put, the Japanese makers tend to use better quality control processes than do other automakers, and they set the standard for everyone else, including Mercedes and BMW. If that element of risk scares you, then buy a Lexus, Acura or possibly an Infiniti, and be done with it.

That being said, there are things that you can do to mitigate the risk, and there are many Audi owners not posting on the problems board who have had good luck with their cars. You may find that the level of refinement and je ne sais quoi of the driving experience make it worth taking the chance.

Based upon what I've read on forums and various Audi owners with whom I've spoken, you seem to find three categories of owners: (a) those with bulletproof cars, (b) those with niggling minor problems, such as electronics, but with no major issues with drivetrain, etc. and (c) the occasional owner of a lemon (which admittedly seems to happen more often than it would to the owner of the Japanese cars in its class.)

Also keep in mind that the turbo 4-cylinder Audis have long been the favorites of stoplight racers who like to chip/ flash their cars and otherwise drive them hard. As a result, you may find drivetrain problems that have been owner-induced and created by abuse, rather than being the direct fault of the manufacturer (although to be fair, Audi should know this about the customer base and engineer the car to handle the tweaks and additional power.)

If you're willing to go for it, I'd suggest the following with any other car, but particularly doing so for anything coming out of Europe:

-Carefully inspect and test drive the individual car that you would purchase before buying it. Don't just take delivery without making sure that the specific car that you would take home with you is in top notch condition. I advise this because unlike the Japanese that invest a lot of quality control efforts up front and throughout the assembly process, the German makers still rely heavily on the traditional Henry Ford-inspired method of putting much of the QC effort at the back end, after the car has already been assembled, which creates more opportunities for mistakes. Leave the lot confident that your car got the QC that it deserved, and that nothing problematic has slipped past anyone.

-Break it in properly. Don't just begin driving the car as you would throughout its useful life -- follow the break-in procedure strictly, being sure to vary the engine speeds throughout the range so that the seals seat properly, and avoid cruising at constant speeds and use of the cruise control during this time. You should end up with minimal oil consumption, better fuel economy and superior long-term reliability of the motor if you follow this, and can expect problems if you don't. (FWIW, I was able to get 30 mpg after extended crusing at 85-95 mph, and match the EPA 34 mpg rating if cruising at about 72 mph.)

-Change oil frequently, it is the singlemost important maintenance item for long engine life. The Audi maintenance plan provides for oil changes every year/ 10k miles after an initial 6 mo/ 5k change, which is really far too long an interval. Use synthetic oil and change it every 6 mo/ 5k (whichever comes first) without fail, even though you will need to pay for the additional changes. Some of the previous 1.8 liter turbos in the prior model had coking problems, due to the use of non-synthetic oil and infrequent oil changes.

-If you have a turbo, let it idle before shutting it down. Turbos tend to run hot and require circulating coolant in order to cool down, so idling after driving allows time for this cooling to occur. Shutting it down immediately after arrival, particularly after hard driving, is a recipe for eventual problems.

One more bit: Some of Audi's QC problems in North America came from the fact that the QC was previously handled by VWoA, which did a sloppy job of it across the entire product line. Audi's US branch has since developed its own seperate quality control group, seperate from VWoA, in order to pay specific attention to cars in its lineup. If you review the JD Power IQS, this seems to be helping, although the cars admittedly still aren't at the level of the Japanese makers.

You will have to make the decision whether the driving experience is worth some extra effort, higher parts costs post-warranty and the greater risk of reliability issues. If you intend to own the car for only a couple of years, the decision is less risky, as you would be selling the car relatively new and with a warranty that extends four years from the purchase date. Personally, I found the Asian alternatives to be a bit dull and staid for my tastes, and my car thus far has had impeccable fit-and-finish and only one minor problem (with the electronic key). The drivetrain has been solid and performs very nicely.

shipo · February 2006

On the whole I agree with most of your post, however:

"Change oil frequently, it is the singlemost important maintenance item for long engine life. The Audi maintenance plan provides for oil changes every year/ 10k miles after an initial 6 mo/ 5k change, which is really far too long an interval. Use synthetic oil and change it every 6 mo/ 5k (whichever comes first) without fail, even though you will need to pay for the additional changes."

Do you have any scientific data to back this up? I seriously doubt that changing oil before the recommended 10,000 mile oil change interval (assuming the proper VW spec synthitic oil is being used) will provide any benefit at all (FWIW, I'm not referring to the initial 5K change here). Your comment about the coking (and sludging) problems on the previous generation 1.8t mills being run with conventional oil (or even inferior synthetic for that matter) really isn't relevant to this discussion. As I see it, use the proper oil (i.e. something like Mobil 1 0W-40) OR risk coking and sludging regardless of how often you change your oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

socala4 · February 2006

I realize that there is some debate about appropriate intervals, and that some don't subscribe to the belief that frequent oil changes do much good. And I admittedly don't have a study to back me up, so feel free to differ. That being said, I look at this way:

-By definition, most drivers drive their cars under what manufacturers term to be "severe conditions" (i.e. stop-and-go traffic, dusty areas, etc.), so following the "normal" schedule makes little sense for virtually everyone on the road. At the very least, drivers should be following the "severe" schedules in their owners manuals.

-One purpose of motor oil is to help cool the engine. The more heat the engine generates, the more quickly the oil will break down. And turbos generate more heat, so the A4 2.0 liter is a good candidate for frequent oil changes.

-Oil will, over time, become polluted by some of the dust and dirt in the operating environment. The less frequent the oil changes, the more time that dirt has to circulate within the motor. I'd prefer to get rid of those contaminants sooner than later.

-As oil deteriorates, it can create sludge, which is very difficult to get rid and will likely harm an engine. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and change frequently to avoid sludge than to deal with it, by which time it is likely to late to do anything about it.

I'd welcome information to the contrary, but I'm willing to make the effort and spend the time and money on the additional changes. I'm not using the 3,000 mile intervals that I would have in the old days, but having seen the oil that was in my crankcase prior to my first oil change, I can't imagine why I'd want to leave it in there for another six months.

shipo · February 2006

A few points...

"One purpose of motor oil is to help cool the engine. The more heat the engine generates, the more quickly the oil will break down. And turbos generate more heat, so the A4 2.0 liter is a good candidate for frequent oil changes."

As a general rule, the amount of heat generated by an engine is directly proportional to the output of said engine (before any parasitic losses associated with superchargers and such), regardless of whether the induction system is naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged.

Said another way, while the 2.0T will certainly generate more heat than the normally aspirated 2.0 VW mill, I seriously doubt that the 200 HP 2.0T engine generates significantly more heat (if any) than did the 3.0 liter 225 HP I6 mill in my 530i.

"Oil will, over time, become polluted by some of the dust and dirt in the operating environment. The less frequent the oil changes, the more time that dirt has to circulate within the motor. I'd prefer to get rid of those contaminants sooner than later."

Well, sort of. True, dust, dirt, combustion by-products and acid from the oil reacting with condensed water do pollute the oil of every engine. That having been said, there are several other factors in play here:

1) The oil filter will remove the vast majority of said dust and dirt.
2) Modern oil filters are specifically designed to last well beyond the recommended OCI.
3) Oil filters become ever more efficient at cleaning the oil, right up to the point where the bypass starts to open (something that shouldn't happen until many thousands of miles beyond the recommended OCI).
4) Modern engines produce the barest of a fraction of the amount of combustion byproducts compared to engines built as little as ten years ago. Said another way, there just ain't that much for the oil to do here.
5) High quality synthetic oils (especially those that meet the stringent VW spec) are capable of holding prodigious amounts of contaminants in suspension. Said another way, modern oil can hold more but modern engines produce less.
6) High quality synthetic oils (especially those that meet the stringent VW spec) are capable of holding significant amounts of condensed water in suspension and NOT reacting with said water to cause acid. The water is simply held in suspension until the oil temperatures get high enough to boil it away.

"As oil deteriorates, it can create sludge, which is very difficult to get rid and will likely harm an engine. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and change frequently to avoid sludge than to deal with it, by which time it is likely to late to do anything about it."

No argument from me on this one. The only comment I have is that a 10,000 mile OCI is in my book "erring on the side of caution". When I was working for MB-USA they were running some of their early synthetic oil tests on a few test mules and discovered (via oil analysis) that even 20,000 miles in NYC metro area traffic wasn't enough to bring the oil quality levels below minimum.

"I'd welcome information to the contrary, but I'm willing to make the effort and spend the time and money on the additional changes."

Consider the following:
BMW and Porsche have been recommending 15,000 mile OCIs for a minimum of eight model years now (I think Porsche is more like 10 or even 12 years). Have you heard of any oil related engine failures on those cars (some of which are will over the 100,000 mile mark by now)? I haven't.

Best Regards,
Shipo

socala4 · February 2006

Shipo, you raise fair points. Re: engine failure, though, the 1.8 liter A4 did have sludging and coking problems, which were clearly problematic for turbo failure, so I don't know if I'd be tempted to push the 2.0 liter in the same fashion.

I don't have my manual handy at the moment, but I would think that the maintenance schedule for severe conditions would not call for a 12 month/ 10k mi. interval for the 2.0 liter. I'll take a look at it when I have a chance to update everyone.

shipo · February 2006

Re: engine failure, though, the 1.8 liter A4 did have sludging and coking problems, which were clearly problematic for turbo failure...

I'm not sure when the most recent oil spec was released from VW, however, IIRC; it is a fairly recent development.

Winding the clock back a couple of decades, back when Chrysler was the largest producer of turbocharged automotive engines in the world, I drove both a Turbo-I and a Turbo-III (I think that's what the intercooled version was called). Many of my family and friends drove cars with the same engines as well, and guess what? Every one of those cars (except the two of mine) needed at least one turbo replacement (my business partners' wife needed three in only 70,000 miles). In every case, those cars were lubricated with conventional oil provided by the dealer. I on the other hand had been reading about the potential problems with oil/bearing coking and decided from day one to use only Mobil 1 oil in those engines. The first went 74,000 miles before I traded it in, and the second had more like 85,000 on the clock before I moved to NYC and became car-less for the first time in my adult life (that only lasted about three months). In the case of my two turbocharged engines, I credit the superior heat resistant properties of the synthetic oil for protecting my turbine bearings so well that they never failed.

Given that the industry allegedly learned two decades ago about how to protect turbine bearings from the oil coking problem, I'm surprised that VW/Audi allowed their various turbocharged engines to operate on anything less than a full synthetic oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .of quality may include durability and reliability.

I am the wrong guy to ask anything about durability having no German car (and hardly any car period) longer than 49,999 miles.

The current two German cars my wife and I have would seem to be candidates for keeping beyond 50,000 miles if we were not so keen on having current technology.

I have no reason to dis Japanese cars for their legendary reliability and durability.

I have reason to support their legendary reliability and durability.

Indeed if I were a gossip (or more than I am), the stories I could tell about unreliable and not very durable cars do not include any German cars (and, other than Saab, no European cars, period.)

They do however include several unreliable Acuras and a Toyota or two.

The most durable cars -- which is separate from reliable -- seem, however, to be American cars. You can beat the everluvin's stuffin' out of the ones I know and you "can't kill them."

Now, that being said, the driving experience and other ownership considerations have not made the American cars -- to me -- all that attractive.

But the American cars with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on them that seem to thrive on abuse are in my experience legendary, moreso than the Japanese cars.

Now, reliability is another issue entirely.

Early on (in my string of 28 Audis), I did have what I, in hindsight, would call reliability problems. None so serious to strand me -- but lots of little do-hickeys that seem to go south. Overall the German cars my wife and I have had, however, SEEM to be durable.

The current level of reliability and durability is, too, hard to determine since my wife has just over 15,000 on her 2005 BMW X3 and I have just under 14,000 on my 2005 Audi A6 3.2.

I have had two oil changes.

My wife has had NONE -- and the meter says due in 2600 miles which would be just under 18K.

The BMW full service counter rules or whatever the heck they call them says "within 1000 miles" no exceptions.

It is a leased car, we do not intend to buy it.

It will have about 48K miles when we trade out.

Much as I think 10K syn oil and filter changes are probably adequate -- I can't see paying for the oil changes to get rid of a car in warranty that the mfgr knows about (in terms of freq of oil changes.)

They must know stuff I don't know.

I say live it or live with it!

Overall point, our two dozen plus German cars have been very reliable in the context stated. Can't say if they've been durable -- but they were fine as wine for us.

The driving experience is and almost always has been exemplary. :shades:

jburleig · February 2006

First, thanks to all who responed to my earlier question (re: advice). The info was quite helpful.

I was curious if anyone had advance word on what Audi might be doing for next year's model, which I assume arrives late summer this year. With the redesigned 3-series and Lexus IS already on the streets, and with the A4 full redesign still years away, I was thinking Audi might try sweetening the pot with their 07 A4 to maintain competitiveness. The others seem to offer quite a bit for the money.

byronwalter · February 2006

I'd guess that there might be a special S Line variant with a tweaked two liter engine... maybe 220 hp? But we will have to wait until '08 for the major revision. BTW, there are some "spy shots" floating around out there that suggest a much more muscular-looking A4. I like these suspect images.

And as for oil changes, my car would fall under the severe duty classification and thus more frequent oil changes are called for. I'm going with 5k changes. Besides, I've got a case of Amsoil in the garage, ready for action. Might as well use it. Also my car has an APR 91 octane reflash for those times when I need a bit more oomph.

So far my two liter manual A4 with the sport suspension has been absolutely perfect. Not even a squeak during the cold weather here in NE Ohi.

Byron

socala4 · February 2006

With the redesigned 3-series and Lexus IS already on the streets, and with the A4 full redesign still years away, I was thinking Audi might try sweetening the pot with their 07 A4 to maintain competitiveness.

The current model (code: B7) was debuted in March 2005 as a facelist to the prior model. The engines are all-new and the exterior body style has been modified from the previous car. Audi claims that the car is about 60% new from the prior model, which was introduced in 2002.

The B8 sketches photo renderings are already out, and the new car is expected to be released for 2008 (which I presume means autumn 2007). There is also an A5 planned, which will be a two-door coupe built on the A4 platform meant to compete with the 2-door 3-series and Mercedes CLK.

In other words, the Audi, BMW and Lexus aren't quite on the same design cycles. There will be a new 3-series coupe coming for this next model year. (As was the case with the last 3, BMW released the coupe one year after the sedan version.)

Take a look around the net, you can see what the B8 is expected to look like. (From what I've seen, it looks very promising -- aggressive and arguably more interesting than the Bangle-styled 3-series.)

dhamilton · February 2006

find it interesting the huge disparity in performance {for the A4} between the Edmunds A4 vs 330 comparo, and the Road & Track comparo between the various all wheel drive sedans?
I guess it just goes to show the following
1. Don't get to hung up on comparisons.
2. Tires, and track conditions vary, and impact largely.
3. Do your own research.

Also, huge difference in slalom speeds. Road & Track uses a 700 foot slalom, with 100 foot spacing. Does anyone know what the numbers are for Edmunds slalom tests? {Maybe those numbers are a benchmark? If so please forgive my ignorance}
Different sets of tires for sure. I guess I didn't mention that up top.
Discuss, Road & Track magazine is neither a road, or a track :P

socala4 · February 2006

Anyone find it interesting the huge disparity in performance {for the A4} between the Edmunds A4 vs 330 comparo

Based upon what I've been reading, I believe that many of the early press coverage and road tests of the current A4 were based upon pre-production models that weren't quite up to snuff.

I'm noticing that 0-60 times for the 2.0 liter have fallen from the low 7's to the high 6's, which makes sense, given that Audi's reported figures are in the low 7's (the manufacturer has historically tended to be conservative in its claimed times), and that tests of the 2.0 liter turbo A3's and Golf GTI's have also been running in the high 6's.

That being said, the enthusiast publications tend to like the sort of controlled oversteer that can only come from RWD, and the 3-series is concerned to be the benchmark car in its class for performance handling. In contrast, the FWD A4 has a tendency to understeer, something which the mags don't tend to care for as much...but how relevant are oversteer characteristics during the average owner's daily drive?

markcincinnati · February 2006

Some of the early tests of the A4 3.2 were made on models that, due to the way the 2005.5 A4 was introduced were equipped with automatic transmissions, no sport set ups, etc.

None of these reasons excuse the early test results of what was to be a refreshed and more powerful car.

The A4 2.0T S-line when pitted against the 325xi perhaps demonstrated Audis experience and tenacity in AWD more than any real failing on BMW's part.

BMW's IMHO are about balance. BMW's x-drive sedan offerings in the US seem to have been deliberately tuned to be more un-sporty -- and I find this somewhat of a corporate contradiction.

Audi, apparently knowing it has nose heavy cars that tend to understeer far more than BMW's continues to work on performing engineering miracles with respect to their suspensions and "going for every trick" they can gin up to shift weight rearward (well, every not radically expensive trick, that is.)

A data point: I have been to the Audi driving school in Seefeld Austria four times -- every single time we have been schooled in "power sliding" or steering with the throttle -- always in stick shift A4 quattros that are off the assembly line, not special versions.

I would misrepresent the facts if I claimed the Audi was prone to wagging its tail. However, it is amazing -- once you get the tail out there, how the quattro system induced to oversteer (with the ESP off) can almost literally perform figure 8's with judicious application of the throttle.

Then, when you are offered the chance to drive a RWD BMW 3 in a circle (on ice with 4 studded snow tires) and drive it faster and faster and faster until it breaks loose, then do the exact same thing in the A4 Q, you realize that the A4 can drive in a circle on ice much faster than an otherwise identically powered and tired BMW RWD 3.

Other amazing feats include driving up a snow covered hill with the quattro system versus the x-drive system. The quattro shows the x-drive its tail lights pretty early on the climb.

In real life, however, the point is well taken -- a 325xi will probably be "as fine as wine" on the highways we all frequent, as will the Subaru and the A4.

This one time, the A4 came out on top.

Don't count BMW out, just a little bit down this time.

Don't cry for me Argentina.

socala4 · February 2006

Some of the early tests of the A4 3.2 were made on models that, due to the way the 2005.5 A4 was introduced were equipped with automatic transmissions, no sport set ups, etc.

None of these reasons excuse the early test results of what was to be a refreshed and more powerful car.

Very good point. And to add to that, the magazine comparo tests pitted this automatic car against 6MT versions of the 330i. I won't claim that the BMW isn't a worthy drive, but comparing a manual version of one to the automatic version of the other is going to create an obvious disparity during a comparison test.

IMO, it was a serious PR mistake for Audi to release the early 3.2 liter B7's without a manual transmission. (It is now being offered for 2006.) Even if the average US driver generally prefers automatics and the average A4 3.2 buyer in the US will opt for the tiptronic, the fact is that the US enthusiast press and the enthusiast tastemakers often do want an MT, meaning that the early reviews were bound to be less positive than they could have been.

Not quite on point, but one thing I've noticed with BMW is that finding a 3-series on a dealer's lot with a manual transmission is next to impossible -- it is basically a special-order item that few customers want, aside from people like me.

Yet the magazines always review the MT versions, and cast their judgments on a car that most 3-series buyers in the US will never drive. And the same magazines never mention that in the real world, this MT-equipped car is an elusive animal (perhaps because they are handed the car by the manufacturer, and never need to bother with shopping in order to get one.)

The point is that BMW clearly makes an effort to address the tastes of the media when providing cars to be tested, equipping them as the magazine testers would prefer to have them. Audi should be learning from this, offering MT cars to the market from the onset so that the press can make apples-to-apples comparisons.

Incidentally, as did BMW, Infiniti also provided MT versions of the G35 sedan to the magazines for testing. While I shopping for cars, not once did I ever find a MT-equipped sedan version of the car on a dealer's lot. Again, why the magazines don't seem to see that the cars they test are often not available to the average buyer, I don't know...

Audi A4 2005+

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