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Audi A4 2005+
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Comments
So, we meet with this young man and we come to find out that even with fluent German and a great GPA, BMW in Munich has no openings so he returns to the US to SELL BMWs.
The good news is we can now test drive some pretty nifty BMW's even though we will not be in the market for over 15 months.
Yesterday, we visited our friend at the local BMW outlet here in River City and we were given the keys to a new 335 coupe.
It had a 6 speed manual and the sport package.
You long time edmund's folks know I am pretty much "all-Audi" even though I appreciate, very much, the BMW lineup.
Gulp.
This thing with at least three option packages on it was pegged at $45K with the shipping charges.
This car probably could not out gun, so to speak, an S4 (but it would come close) -- and it was NOT AWD (but it will be next year, so says our friend.)
Add, perhaps $1,800 to this car for X drive. It still is under $47K.
The MPG on the sticker: 29.
Although it was a four seater, it did have about as much knee and foot room (if not a smidge more) than the S4 would have at some $53or $54K.
Yea, but the S4 has a 4.2 V8, right? Yes it does and it is sweet.
I find it hard to believe I would miss the extra horsepower of the Audi V8, and the BMW's torque was immediate and, as I am wont to say: Weapon's Grade.
Have you priced a 2.0T with about three option packages and metallic paint? Call it $39K -- and that is without navigation.
Have you priced an A4 with the step up engine, the 3.2? Easily $44K. The A4 3.2 would only see the Bimmers tail lights, unless the BMW was parked.
This coupe rivals the S4 -- it may not be able to beat an S4, if that was your purpose. But -- this BMW would come it at thousands less, handle better and be more frugal, as if you would really buy it for its economy.
When Audi dropped the 2.7T, I "assumed" the natural progression of things would be the turbo charging of the 3.2 engine (technically 3.1+, I know.)
I assumed it would be thus and would come in for marketing reasons at 295HP with like torque.
At the time, the V8 4.2 was NOT up to its present steam of 350HP with FSI, so perhaps MARKETING intervened.
Now, the three series will have a 328 and a 335 across the lineup and also across the line, X drive.
Audis, to my way of thinking, have always been about more.
And that included MORE value.
Now, we see Audi being "matched" (and of course BMW says better since they are already better weight balanced and X drive is already RWD biased, etc.) and, producing a car with comparable performance for way less MSRP.
Assuming the residual maintains -- hmmm, the BMW with this engine will be darn near a bargain.
Nothing, today, in the Audi lineup even comes close to this. And, yes a year is a long way off -- but the counter punch needed NOW is an A4 3.2T FSI rear biased quattro for about $46,500 - $47,900 including S-Line.
There has to be some 'splainin' to do in Ingolstadt, one would think.
Actually my first choice is the A3...but was looking for a leftover 06....and i want certain options...and i'm figuring there isn't any left on the lots with what i want....i figure i could get a better deal getting an 06...but i suppose i should also look into an 07...money is an issue thats why i'm looking into an 06.
Waiting for a dealer to contact me to see if they can find any.
I want silver or grey exterior, auto dsg, winter package(heated seats), leather, and the upgraded stereo....figured if the A3 dosen't work out, then maybe an A4 would be my next choice.
Last i checked the Audi site hasn't been updated yet for building a 07 A3.
don
1. the '07 MSRP is lower
2. the '07 residual is higher
3. the discounts on the A4, although decent, are small -- at least compared to the A6 which was coming in at discounts of $8000 off MSRP.
4. the '07 has unbundled some popular options, such as bluetooth from the technology package.
If you are paying 100% cash -- or somehow able to get 0% money, the A4 '06 MAY be a better deal if you factor in depreciation (an '07 will be worth more in 3 years than an otherwise identical '06 and/or at the same MSRP.
Generally speaking, the discounts OFF of MSRP have to be rather large for an end of year deal unless the car is either "unpopular" for some reason or is loaded to the gills with options.
In the latter case, if you could find a MAXED out A4 2.0T quattro (over $40K sticker, i.e., it would probably be a better deal than an '07 comparably equipped.)
Such a car, today, here in River city would be about $500 per month, 15K miles, first month and sec dept and perhaps the acquisition fee ($350 as walking away money.)
The term would be, based on the day of the week, 36 to 42 months.
An '07 comparably equipped would be a decent amount more per month.
On the other hand, a popular optioned '07 would probably be no more than a stripped '06 A4 ON A LEASE basis, that is.
If you want an A3, be advised they are fwd unless you step to the 3.2 version which, to me, seems too expensive when put up against the A4.
One last thing, the '07 will NOT have the Audi Maint program unless you are willing to poney up $550. I would do it, were it my choice.
Good luck.
Also the suspension on the A3 is tight but really too firm for anything but racing around back roads. I was exhausted when I got out of that car and would not want to drive it over 1 pothole per week. The A4 has great front seat room for big guys, has a super smooth, S4/A6 based suspension and of course, has quattro, which makes aggressive driving a confident, road sticking easier experience instead of an exciting torquey labor of love.
The big advantage here of course is ED, which makes the Bimmer considerably cheaper, plus free maintence ect..
Data:
Audi S4 0-60 5.3 weight 3869lbs Msrp $47,500
Audi RS4 0-60 4.8 weight 3957lbs Msrp $66,000
BMW 335I 0-60 5.3 weight 3571lbs Msrp $38,700 ED invoice 34k and change.
One independent test has the 335I coupe at 0-60 4.9
I say a bunch of "splain'in is in order...
DL
The dealer will replace all of the above, but for future occasions, is there a website where we could order interior parts?(buttons, plastic panels, etc.) or the dealer is the only option?
Thanks
We'll have to see how the AWD 335 compares to an equivalent Audi. Should prove interesting. I'm gonna wait it out until the next gen A4 or new A5 hit the shores.
My '06 A4 is now entering its second year and I have yet to have a single issue or even squeak from it. Last October I had the ECU reflashed and I really can't complain about the power of that nice little two liter engine.
Best gas mileage to date is 37.6 mpg @ 70 mph last spring. Must have been a tail wind.
Byron
Living in the South we don't get heavy snow , however something worse, Solid ICE. I have never been stranded yet,with the traction control, self drying brakes and slowing down works pretty well. How 300Hp would perform in the nasty stuff ? ,I can't say.
It's too bad Audi is dropping the Free maintence :sick:
DL
I'm not familiar with BMW's traction control but that new 335i with three hundred plus hp and lb-ft of torque would really need it, eh?
Maybe I shouldn't drive one after all. It might be too much fun
Byron
But. . .
The current bottom end of the 3 (now on line) is 328i (rwd) and 328xi (awd). This configuration is good for 230 HP. Audi's excellent and more frugal 2.0T at this point remains @ 200HP.
The "middle" for BMW now is a 335 Coupe and Sedan (at present ONLY RWD, but already announced in AWD for the next year.) This configuration produces a stout 300HP and a similar amount of torque. Gone is the 330 with 255HP. Gone, at least from the US configurator is the 330xi.
The 335 can be configured price competitive with an A4 3.2 (and for my money quattro makes it more attractive.) Yet, a drive in a 335 and an S4 would reveal the 335 feels a heck of a lot closer to the S version than Audi's middle child.
Fast forward one year and add ~$2,000 to the BMW (for X drive) and, if Audi does NOT counter punch with something like the uprated 2.0T (taking it to at least 220HP) and bringing to market a 3.2T, I would think someone shopping these two car lines could conclude: for $45 - $48K (for the Bimmer) vs $43 - $46K (for the Audi A4) that I would need to look to the S4 for similar performance (but at higher bucks.) The 335 is less money than an S4, and even with x-drive, the 335 will be less money, better gas mileage and very similar performance.
Hence: Trouble in Ingolstadt.
A sweet 335 4-door sedan with AWD and "popular options" would be very close in performance to an S4, but priced more like an A4. Also a 328xi would be close in performance to an A4 3.2 (as it now is configured) but priced perhaps only slightly more than the A4 2.0T (as it now stands.)
The A5, seems to be either an A4 coupe and/or cabriolet -- and nothing about it (from the cyber rumors, at least) suggests anything but a continuation of the current powertrain lineup.
Audis, to me, have been about value, greater bang for the buck, i.e., than BMW's as well as greater performance.
My near term concern (if someone will accept RWD) is that to get to the performance of the 335, one has to consider the S4. Moreover, if a loaded A4 2.0T quattro is on your shopping list, a 328xi is now a serious contender especially with its new found power.
I have googled 3.2T FSI and there is some evidence that the 3.2 would easily surpass 300HP were it gently blown by Audis (bi) turbos (as applied to previous engines, including the 2.7T and 4.2T.)
Were BMW to continue the 255HP 330 and 330xi sedans, or have priced the 335 several thousand higher, etc, my "trouble in Ingolstadt" post would be much less ado.
As it stands, Audi needs to reduce the price of the S4 (but that won't help its gas mileage) or bring both an uprated 2.0T AND a 3.2T to market --soon. :surprise:
Left out in that statement is that there are many of us who MUCH prefer RWD over AWD thus offering a further pricing advantage (and depending upon your point of view a performance advantage as well) to BMW.
Said another way, I would LOVE to see a RWD version of both the A3 (not likely given its engine orientation) and the A4 (which on the surface seems to be a fairly easy change). As it sits right now, if Audi and BMW presented the market with virtual like for like cars (i.e. power, mileage, acceleration, handling, space, looks, goodies...) at the same price, I'd opt for the BMW simply because I can get it with RWD.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And, hopefully, you know that sarcasm, irony and/or humor are sometimes difficult to get across appropriately in these blogs.
You have made my point.
I have driven the 335 coupe, the S4 and seen up close and personal the 335 sedan.
I would opt for the AWD version. But you are representative of many folks, I am certain. For $45K the 335 is a whole bunch of car and, frankly, a whole bunch more than a $44K A4 3.2 with sport package and 6speed manual.
Ingolstadt needs to fire back.
:surprise:
Hehe, I love being wrong, it's sooooo much fun. ;-)
Hmmm, let's see, an A3 or an A4 with a 2.0T putting out say 250HP to the rear wheels through a 6-Speed manual and some form of an LSD down stream of the tranny. Being wrong never felt so good. :shades:
Best Regards,
Shipo
"D'oh!"
I own the last RWD compact wagon sold in this silly country of ours, and loathe am I to give it up, Japanese though it may be.
"Dear Audi:
For Christmas, I would like a 250hp RWD compact wagon with all the Audi beauty of design and style I have come to know and love, plus the S4's suspension and a strong shot of DSG.
Warmest wishes for the season,
Wale"
Also, you mentioned a price reduction in the '07 line? I checked and a A4 2.0TQ 6 speed show's the same MSRP, perhaps the site needs some updating ?
DL
They indicated that the CONTENT has been "upped." The same money now gets more, so they contend. I did NOT vet this and really am not inclined to do so. If I am guilty of misspeaking, I will of course retract what I said once I get the story laid out.
My "gut" is that BMW is doing something similar.
When hell freezes over, I would wager, will be when Audi goes RWD.
YES -- they HAVE already put the engineering, development and manufacturing bucks into a 40 / 60 f/r torque split torsen diff. It is NOT yet across all cars.
As far as I know, ONLY the TT is NON torsen (of the quattro versions of the Audi line-up.)
The rest are torsen and are mostly 50 / 50 f/r torque split with "instant" power shifting capabilities (front or rear up to 75%, as I recall of the power fore or aft as needed.)
The few 40 / 60 f/r torque split torsen equipped Audi quattro cars can, so the press release says, shift up to 100% (rearward) when being REAR WHEEL DRIVE would provide the greatest performance benefit.
The upcoming B8 A4 has been leaked to offer: 40 / 60 f/r torque split in the quattro version (using torsen) and will also have the engine pushed 4 inches backwards doing a yeoman's job of improving the f/r weight distribution.
When this happens and if there is an S-Line version AND if there is a 3.2T FSI engine mated to a 7 speed DSG transmission AND the price stays below $49,999 decently equipped, I would think the BMW 335 threat would be nullified (RWD 335 OR X-drive 335.) :P
Other "chassis" improvements (to be found on some other websites) are rumored, too. These improvements, purportedly are to further improve Audis handling prowess with "advanced" quattro (TorSen) systems.
RWD, I Really Well Doubt you will see it any time soon, folks. Maybe if Dr. Piech drops dead.
Nah, probably not even then. :surprise:
As far as I know, ONLY the TT is NON torsen (of the quattro versions of the Audi line-up.)"
Ummm, how about the A3??? Last time I checked it was a Haldex (sp?) AWD system.
"The few 40 / 60 f/r torque split torsen equipped Audi quattro cars can, so the press release says, shift up to 100% (rearward) when being REAR WHEEL DRIVE would provide the greatest performance benefit."
Well, for me at least, that really isn't the point. Speaking strictly for myself, I really don't want an AWD car that is a RWD wannabe, and as such is carrying around all of extra FWD hardware and its associated mechanical drag and weight.
Thinking about this from a pure drive train perspective, it seems to me that the A4, A6 and A8 really are RWD cars with a trick tranny that can send power to the front as well. Yes, no? If that's the case, they why can't the fine folks at Audi just market a model without all of that extra hardware up there at the front end?
Once again I'm playing the "Loyal RWD Opposition" here. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
DL
OTOH, I suspect that only the lunatic fringe :P will be nit pickin' their future vehicle purchases on whether the car is FWD or RWD.
I would like to see Audi bring over the new version of the 2.0t engine that is currently intended for the S3, which we will not see in the States. That particular 'four' is supposed to be good for 265 hp, which I believe would produce enough speed thrills for most of us (along with respectable mpg).
While we won't see the S3, I doubt that we will even get the pumped up 'two' due possibly to emission issues and 93 octane fuel requirements. I hope that I am incorrect on these points.
But that new 335i sure is tempting. I ain't gonna allow myself to drive it (well, maybe).
BTW, just came back from an unscheduled oil change (I have it changed every 5k miles) and got to speak with Fred Baker, who owns FB Audi. He said that he set a new lap record at Mid Ohio last spring. I watched that race on Speed TV and it was a good day for Audis and a not-so-good day for BMWs.
Byron
NO A6 FWD's and NO A4 FWD's have been sold, so says the sales mgr here in Cinti -- at least since 2004.
Maybe this is so. In any case I can hardly imagine anyone considering an Audi FWD, but I can see people considering both AWD and RWD BMW's all day long, espcially since our Bimmer dealer say that 60% of the BMW's he sells are RWD -- although he thinks this will change somewhat once the 7x becomes available. Of course that will have a modest impact in units sold, one would imagine.
I priced out a 335i sedan, 335i coupe, 328 sedan and coupe and both in X drive and RWD.
The net seems to be that RWD to AWD will add exactly $1900 to the MSRP of a comparably equipped version.
A well optioned 335i with the $1900 added to see what the final number would be (and this includes iDrive and Sat nav and Sirius sat radio and everything identical between the two cars as evidenced by the 328i and 328xi) was configured by yours truly. The envelope please:
Including shipping, the figure was $48,065.
The performance, if not the price, was in the S4 league.
You can "mostly" get an S4 for that much money -- stripped.
Comparably equipped, as best as I could come up with it would seem that the S4 would be about $7K more than a 335xi both with all the toys on them.
The S4, one would imagine (and I would hope) would be a hotter performer. Only you can determine if the $7K premium is worth it.
On the other hand, an A4 3.2 would be just under $45K -- roughly the same content level and seems to be closer in performance to the thousands cheaper 328xi.
This, IMHO, is a first. Usually the BMW is thousands more than the Audi. A few years ago a fully loaded 6 cylinder 5 series was about $500 less than a fully loaded Audi A6.
Of course the A6 in question was a V8 and had quattro.
Reversal of fortune, in some ways.
The 335 is, in this light, almost a gift from BMW to the US customer.
The A4 3.2 with SLine and all the option boxes checked actually would, or could, cost more than the 335 sedan.
Trouble in Ingolstadt, indeed.
O boy, Sound's like some people need to hear Mr. Shipo's "winter tires are better then awd speech" That is just hard to imagine. Granted Audi has hung it's hat on the "unfair advantage of Quattro" Although now everybody's doing it..
One of my biggest issues of Fwd ( and I have a few) is torque steer. And Audi/VW do the best job on that. My TDI with Gobs of torque at 1900 rpm has none. I hear it has to do with this new electro mechanical steering. Honestly I dont care what the "why" or "how" is, long as it works.
To me Audi allways meant Value, which right now has me scratching my head... :confuse:
DL
I believe that with the A3 you still have to pony up for the six cylinder engine to get a Quattro-configured car, which makes the A3 nutty expensive, considering that you are now close to the price of an A4 with the two liter and a Torsen AWD setup. The two liter A4 isn't very far from the six cylinder A3 in acceleration, gets better fuel efficiency, and has a nicer interior. The A4 also handles better, based on road tests that I've read and my uncalibrated butt-o-meter.
But then, as you say, BMW has changed every thing with the new 335i series. To counter this Audi is going to have to bump up the base engine to around 230 - 250 hp and perhaps swap the 3.2 liter for the 3.6 liter VW engine. This would at least keep Audi in spitting distance of the new 3xx series (assuming Audi keeps the price point from drifting too far up).
And this would be a great opportunity to slap that new 265 hp four into the A4.
But I bet that BMW's first targets were the current Lexi & Infinitis, which seem to have initiated the hp war.
Audi has time before the release of the B8 A4 to reconsider the engine configurations. I bet that Ingolstadt will 'get it'.
Last year when I drove a number of cars (from a Subie STI to an Acura TL), I nearly bought a BMW 330. And now with the 335i, I think that Audi would probably come in second. All that extra hp would really help on my 18 mile round trip to work. My usual average trip speed is a blistering 30 mph :P
Byron
The problem here is that the VW 3.6 won't fit in an A4 (or even possibly the A6) due to its length. The A4 and A6 engine bays were designed for a longitudinal engine mount and as such require shorter/fatter engines, on the other hand, the Passat (which can accommodate the VW 3.6 liter mill) was designed for a transverse type of engine mount allowing a thinner/longer mill.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Thanks for the insight on the A4 engine bay limitations.
Byron
Can anyone give me some thoughts on:
1) Reliability of the Turbo (have >100K on the 6 w/no Probs.)
2) Whether Premium gas is REALLY required
3) Performance with an Auto Trans. compared to the 6 cyl.
4) How the 4 cyl compares to the 6 in MPG
Thanks
Premium is required, but I know the story about the engine management computer and its ability to retard the spark enough to prevent pre ignition and other nasty side effects. But, using regular costs more, that using premium, so apparently you WANT to spend more money, which confuses the heck outta me.
Performance with the Auto compared to the 2.8 V6? Or the 3.2.
I have driven all three plus the 1.8T (with both transmissions.)
The 2.0T does have decent HP and torque and very little lag.
But the 2.0T, IMHO, begs for the stick for power and performance. But it is better than just OK even with the auto.
The 4 is a sipper compared with the 6.
Were you to use 1000 gallons per year:
Regular $2500
Premium $2700
I know it is $200. But it is a relatively small amount for the gains in both mileage and performance.
At $3, well:
Regular $3000
Premium $3200
And, gulp, at $4, well even less:
Regular $4000
Premium $4200
So the markup is $200 for Prem vs. Reg.
The probability of "below $2/ gal regular for a prolonged period of time" -- your guess is as good as mine.
I think we're not likely to be too shocked at $3/ gallon returning "in the near term."
What's up?
Went there again, and there it is, never mind.
How about the 4.2 litre in the RS? That fits, so my guess is that the 3.6 from VW should fit too... though I dont really think Audi is going to do it, they`ll come up with something smarter than that.
:P
Best Regards,
Shipo
The tires are Continental ContiProContact 17"...
I have driven on lots of different tires over my 32 years of driving, and have never had tires wear out so quickly. Does anyone have a similar experience or sage comment?
See if you can get a reading in millimeters of the tread depth of each tire. If you have 4mm or more you can easily milk those tires to the 30,000 mile mark or more before they are legally gone.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I replaced mine at 25K with a hair over 3/32" tread left.
My wife's TT came with summer only tires UHP or MAX performance. They lasted about 12K miles and we thought that was OK considering.
Audi has taken an approach FOR THE US MARKET, so it seems, that attempts to get the most mileage possible out of tires that give the highest performance level possible AND typically are all season, to boot.
Grand Touring A/S or HP (not UHP) A/S tires seem to be a compromise. Frankly, I did not care for the Grand Touring, H rated All Season Conti's that came on my 2005 A6 (245 x 40 x 18") -- I thought the car was very quiet but the handling was not as crisp as it would have been with UHP tires (I replaced mine with another compromise tire, the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S which are UPH A/S tires.)
The handling improved greatly. The treadwear, I fear, will be 20K?
Your tires may have died young, but I don't think so. They simply died younger than YOU wanted them to die.
You can have: low price, longer [relative] wear, appropriate performance for the car's suspension -- pick two.
:surprise:
Being an S4 fan, It no longer makes sense to me with the 335 being put in to play. Thoughts, questions, concerns, lab values?
BTW, so far I absolutely love this car. Never gave Audi a second look until I wandered into an Audi dealership last week, after a visit to Lexus and Infiniti. The combination of comfort, performance, and gas mileage is very impressive for the money. Hopefully it will be as reliable.
My manual '06 shifts pretty good in the cold (NE Ohio) if it didn't I would make the change too.
BTW, I had my ECU reflashed to the APR 91 octane program (about 230 hp) and really like the results. And after a year and a half my car hasn't had an issue with anything, not even a rattle. Down right creepy!
Byron
I wouldn't think it would be a big deal; however, the service manager nearly stroked out when I mentioned doing this. I may just ask a local Audi shop too. Just making sure I don't do something stupid.
I have been lurking over in the AudiWorld board and it seems the ECU reflash you have is the way to go. I may pull the trigger on that after a good break in period. Good to hear yours has been bulletproof Cheers!
BTW, I too lurk (and post) over at Audiworld. While the site is full of 'cutting edge' Audi info, there's just a tad too much cultism for me.
Once you've cast your dice, get back and let us know how things played out for you!
Wow! :surprise:
Perhaps that's too extreme but there is some of that self-congradulatory drivel by some of the less mature posters.
Cars as religion... and perhaps a compensatory mechanism for a deficiency of "manly tumescence"? :P
BTW, in a few months we're gonna need an A5 section
Byron