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Audi A4 2005+
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Comments
The article is basically about Audi and the new A4.
Here are the main points:
1) Audi is trying to step up its game by making their new model more American.
The A4 is an attempt to bounce back from sliding quality and slumping sales the last few years. The new car has extra electrical outlets because Americans drive with their cell phones and other electronic gadgets. They have new windshield wipers because the old ones squeak on low speed US roads vs the autobahn. The new A4 brake pads have less copper which makes them quieter and long lasting for low speed, stop and go driving typical of US roads The new A4 has larger, adjustable cupholders, a feature that should stop one of the most frequent American complaints
2) The A4 competes against the BMW 3 series, the Infiniti G35 and Cadillac CTS.
3) Audi’s J.D. Power quality scores slumped in the late 1990s because the company depended on quality assurance engineers based in Germany to diagnose problems that only occurred in the US. For example, fuel sensor was failing because of the high sulfur in US gasoline.
4) All German engineering is undergoing a broad decline (Mercedes, BMW, VW ) in quality the past several years as they have rushed new models and packed them with untried electronics.
5) Audi reputation took a hit three years ago when thousands of A4’s, Jettas and Passats ignition coils began burning out, stranding customers and putting their cars in the shop for days or even weeks because of slow VW reaction and a shortage of replacement parts.
6) Audi launched the new A6 after putting the car through more extensive final testing on US roads. They discovered a slight engine hesitation on cool mornings was traced to US engine-control software.
7) Growing is critical for Audi. About 80% of its sales come from Europe and 10% from the US. They need to grow market share to remain competitive with BMW.
8) One sign the effort is paying off is Consumer Reports put the A4 on its “recommended list.”
P.S. My last four cars have been Audis and I am waiting for the 3.2, 6 speed.
Not knowing what you really are looking for but here is my spin.
The new A4 is great with the 2.0litre engine. You can't go wrong with the A4 avant which is also just out on the market. Tight rear seat, marginally less way back space than the Outback/Legacy
I hate to mention Subaru again but I also rented the new Outback with basic engine during a ski week and test drove the Legacy GT Ltd. turbo both automatic and 5 speed. If you haven't been into your local subie dealer you should check out these cars. Our LL Bean was a 2001 , the 2005 Legacy based cars are a lot nicer and approach the euro feel in the "limited" edition.
Last, for the same money and but more space the new VW Passats will be out in less than 6 months - think of them as something between an A4 and A6 in size. Same engines will be in the VW as are in the A4. For the sticker price on my A4 with the 4 banger you'll be able to get a loaded new Passat wagon with just about the same Audi feel. I had the Passat 4 years without a hiccup - some would say that was lucky.
Production of the 2006 model is supposed to start sometime around June/July and should start to arrive at dealers around September. The 2006 will be the same as the 2005.5, but with more options (including the availability of the S-Line package).
2005.5 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro AT6
Premium Package
Cold Weather Package
17" wheels with All Season tires
Exterior: Dolphin Gray
Interior: Ebony
Buying this car with an auto is wringing the life out of these sporting sedans.
50 lashes with a wet noodle!
On the other hand, it is a free country and as a sentient being, you are certainly able to make any decision in this regard that suits you.
However, if anyone from Audi AG or Audi of America in monitoring this, "pay no attention to the man behind the cutrain, deep down inside we all know that manual transmissions rule and we really are 'shifting' -- mentally at least."
Another one bites the dust.
50 lashes with a wet noodle!"
----------
Thank you, but living in San Francisco with its *hills* and traffic, why would I want to drive a stick? Auto gives me a free hand to eat or whatever.
Congrats on your order of your 2.0. If I may ask, did you drive the 3.2 also and if so, what made you choose the 2.0? I'm trying to decide between the two and can't decide if the 3.2 is worth the extra money. Thanks.
I think what I'm concerned about is that I've heard many a horror story from just about every VW owner I know, and VW and Audi are related (not totally sure how but they maybe have the same parent company? Sort of like a Ford/Mercury relation?) I'd really hate to spend $40K+ on a car and have repair problems early on or even later on. I tried looking at Consumer Reports website but I'm cheap and didn't feel like paying to subscribe.
But I really like the look of the Audi's. I think it's exactly the understated luxury I want.
Now somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Volkswagen Group is the parent company for the Volkswagen and Audi Brand groups and under each of those groups are separate brands. The Audi Group has responsibility for Lambo, Audi and Seat autos and VWs brand group is responsible for Bentley, Bugatti and VWs autos.
As far as reliability, (virtual knock on wood), my TT has been great as well as the A4 I previously had.
That's part of the problem.
-----------
Assuming this responds to me (as the 1st half of the post did), I did not drive either. I drove the 1.8T and 3.0. After driving the 1.8T, it was definitely out, no matter what. I liked the 3.0 but it was late December so I focused on the B7. I put in for the 2.0T after reading a lot of reports and deciding that I did not need the extra power at $7,000. I also didn't want to wait until now to do the test drive and then wait forever for the order since I don't have a car. Alex's posts at Audiworld have reassured me (though I doubt he has S.F.'s hills - but 207 ft-lbs torque oughta be enough). I suppose I can ditch the full-size spare too. ;->
----------
You could stop by Safeway and browse the mag like a real cheapskate. I bought the mag because reading about all the different cars is great when visiting the men's library.
DL
Although the story didn't include many of your comments it did address some of your concerns such as Audi's marketing strategy, pricing strategy, etc.
Well, y'all know we are still driving Audis (my wife, too, that is).
The issue has nothing at all to do with the inherent goodness of the cars -- although I can no longer argue they are #1 -- the best I can do is argue they are "tied for #1."
When you have passion about something, you don't just abandon it -- this could happen, of course, but it hasn't happened.
Big difference.
I hope that Audi monitors this -- the article references the dealer's frustration at the current pricing scheme, too.
Audi doesn't want to be seen as "discounting" -- and BMW does? I don't think so.
I rarely see an Audi on the roads here in Cincinnati -- well, let me amend that, sure I see plenty of B5 and even a reasonable number of B6 A4's, almost no allroads and as of the end of the year 2004, a bit more Sline A6's (which were seriously discounted to make way for the new A6's).
Audis sales dropped off nearly 10% -- their new products are Better than ever -- Best ever, frankly. I would flood the market with them, get some buzz going and/or I would advertise them heavily, print, electronic, Internet.
I would change the web site. Shameless copying if needed -- check out the Mercedes web site, for instance.
I know, Audi sold 800,000 cars and BMW sold 1.2 million or something -- I know bucks count and maybe Audi doesn't have the bucks (but the parent article in BW makes it seem like Audi has the money and the area in which it needs to shore itself up is in the United States).
We are the recipients of MIA Audi marketing from this Audi-files perspective.
Even the never follow theme is wimpy. How about something with some backbone?
So, hear me now, listen to me later: we are still in the Audi family; and, we do want to remain in the Audi family. But, as good capitalists, perhaps if we make enough noise and vote with our dollars we will get someone's attention.
Time and time again, I read that it takes 5 times as much effort (and all that implies) to acquire a new customer than it does to retain a current customer. Hmmm, that means my wife and I represent 10 customers or at least the effort required to get 10 customers!
Why not just keep us instead?
also was it a lease or loan
Thanks
dps02@earthlink.net
DL
is the premier purchase strictly from the internet/
All this help and your response is really appreciated...
2005.5 A4 2.0T 6MT Quattro
Black/Black
Premium Pkg
Sport Pkg
Lighting Pkg
MSRP- $35,000+
I put $5500 down and my monthly is $359 for 36 months/10K miles
How did you do on the actual selling price?
My concerns about Audi have nothing to do with the cars being overpriced. Using MSRP as a benchmark, alone, the Audi is usually a higher value than its competition.
However, therefore, notwithstanding, take a fully optioned A6 3.2 and comparably configure a BMW 530 and the Audi will be $54K the Bimmer $57K. If we all bought cars in cash, the Audi wins on two fronts it is less money apples to apples PLUS it is (today) the only one with AWD.
The lease cost is my concern, especially since the majority of Audis (and cars, generally) are not acquired in CASH on the barrelhead.
Audi's US head claims he does not want to undo all the good that has been done for Audi over the past few years by "discounting." Do you think BMW is discounting its cars as part of an overall strategy to become the German Discount Car Company? Yea right!
I would ALMOST rather BMW would just raise its prices to match Audis, but truth be told, my concern is deeper: Audi may have lost its MARKETING edge most notably evident when the market is flooded with Premium AWD available products later this year.
Audi has been the underdog in many ways, sales being the factual measure, public/market perception is Audi is the "Avis" of cars ("we're number 2, we try hard-er" kind of thing.)
Juxtapose this point of view from a US consumer with the retailers -- this sentiment certainly seems to be shared, if you believe BW Magazine -- by the dealer body. They want to be able to sell more cars and at this point, price (as a practical matter, per month) would serve this purpose.
Then put some salt in the wound (in my estimation) by reading the current Automobile magazine that basically says "German cars ain't what they're cracked up to be" in terms of quality and reliability. This article is particularly hard on Mercedes and VW, but Audi certainly comes in at best as a "D+" or maybe a "C-" when viewed in those (quality and reliability) terms. And Audi actually seems to fare better than both Mercedes and its parent VW. But Porsche is the ONLY German brand that apparently ranks as "decent" -- your interpretation of this article may differ.
The German cars, so says this article, have dropped in quality and reliability -- all the while the Japanese cars (even for German customers) are more highly regarded in terms of quality and reliabiliy.
The article, which is a must read, BTW, does offer up the opinion that the Germans may be improving.
I read the article as just another variation on the Emperor's New Clothes.
Finally, although in absolute terms Audis are NOT more expensive, the net of all of this discussion is that, as a practical matter, Audis are not as highly regarded as some of their competitors, which does make them from a market perception point of view as that relates to $, more expensive: manifested via faster depreciation and, for reasons that seem almost bizarre, money factors that essentially make a less desirable car (ouch, did I say that) for the market, cost more. It is the ability to compare one to the other that is hurting Audi, perhaps not too much now -- but when the list of cars with "the Audi advantage -- AWD" becomes as long as your arm, Audi will not have been able to position itself as it appears they want.
What they are doing from a marketing perspective, that is, seems, to me, to be counter-intuitive.
I was very impressed by your methodical test drive and thorough reporting. I can relate to your test-drive approach -- I'm an engineering professor and I once spent an evening with friends mixing ingredients in minute proportions to determine the optimum Bloody Mary recipe.
Now to my questions...
I'm just beginning to shop for a replacement for my 1997 Audi A4 (2.8 V6, quattro, manual), but have not begun test driving yet. I'd love your input.
Here's a little background: I plan to switch to automatic, since my wife is just learning to drive (she somehow survived to her 40s without it, and I don't think she can deal with a manual).
I have really loved my A4, but there seem to be a lot of AWD sport sedans now.
1. What do you think of the Infiniti G35x and the M35x? Reviewers rave about these, but the G35 (even the 2005) looks cheap to me. I haven't seen the M35x in person, but I'm not sure I want the bigger car.
2. How would you compare the 2005.5 A4 (both engines) with a 1997 A4? (the Business Week article says you've had lots of Audis, so I thought you might have experience with this)
3. Having driven the automatic 3.2, how miserable will I be switching from manual? I've driven manual for ages, but I live in Chicago, where you don't get to fully enjoy it. How does the automatic deal with tight curves?
Any thoughts you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your informative posts.
My new B7 A4 stickered at $36,696, invoiced at 34,402.
I got 1,000 off the sticker.
There are various costs associated with any lease or purchase - plates, acquisition fee, etc. And there are sales taxes, at least in CT.
I went for 36 months and 12,000 miles. My cap cost reduction expense was $1,710. I was looking to get to a monthly cost , including the state of CT sales tax of $450 - that's approx. $422 per month before sales tax
If yor $5,500 was all up front cap cost reduction AND you paid other fees on top AND that $359 has sales tax added, you may have paid a high price.
taxman: it was 5500 down total, including everything. and 359 a month after tax
I had pretty much decided that, although this will be "my car" and the roomy Volvo wagon will continue to pull family duty, I really needed the car to pitch in as a second family car. On that basis, I dropped the BMW and Audi from my list, thanks to their now-legendary miniature rear quarters.
That brought on an intense, soul-searching debate (aided by several test drives) as to whether I could overcome the G35's somewhat sub-par interior, and (for Chicago's horrid roads) a rather harsh ride and gain a wonderfully balanced, "throw it into that curve in 3rd" machine. Or...could I get past Japanese "Speed Racer" styling, and Acura's somewhat ridiculous burdening of its Accord FWD platform with near-300 horses, and sink down past the high windowsills into the TL: The best value proposition in the category (period!)...I mean, navigation, 5.1 channel sound and Bluetooth for $33K, with a touch of negotiation??
My wife is a good sport, and accompanied me on some wild-eyed test runs, but in the end, I had to agree with her that, as fun as the G35 really was, it put us too close in touch with the inadequacies of IDOT.
Then, curiosity got the better of me, and we decided to "drop in" at the Audi dealer to see if the new B7's might have a smidgen more rear space than the B6, and to see if 30 extra ponies made the 4-cyl. even more entertaining.
Well, the back seat appears as cramped as ever, but...after riding in the big G35 and TLs, the rest of the B7 fit like I glove. I'd somehow forgotten that I was *meant to drive a VW/Audi*, with the good-natured, light shifter; taut but never harsh springing; balanced and confidence-inspiring handling, free of ugly compromises; and a beautifully understated, impeccably tailored interior.
This, and an Audi apologetically committed to doing better on reliability and service. I wanted to cry...hadn't it been hard enough to get myself to think that an Acura could be cool?
So, here I am at the crossroads again: Can I ignore the fact that my 9- and 12-year old sons are not, in fact, getting any smaller, or that they need Dad to truck them around when the Volvo is parked at the mall?
If I could wait around 6 months for the new Passat, believe me I would...I never have understood why the Passat could be endowed with most of the A4's basic goodness, but none of the passenger room.
Can someone slap some sense into me, and send me off to the Acura dealer, where the Abyss Blue 6MT with Camel leather awaits me???
--G.
I don't understand, nor do I need to, the rationale of putting $5,500 down. The only way I look at this is to suggest that for each $1,000 you put into a leased car (that you initially, at least, have no intention of buying, at the end of the lease) the payment drops perhaps $20. If the term is 36 months, and you bought down the payment by $20 (just as an example) the monthly cost without the down payment would be $720 higher over the term of the lease ($20x36). If this example holds true, then you could have put the money into almost any liquid high income investment and taken the $20 out each month and been ahead by the delta between the $1000 - minus the $720 + plus the income earned on the declining balance over 36 months.
It seems to me that putting money down on a lease makes the car cost more than if you put nothing down.
It is a free country, and you should do what makes you happy or comfortable or whatever.
I have just never been able to make money down on a leased car a workable option.
Now, if the $1,000 down reduced the payment by $50, that might make some sense since the cost over the term of the lease would be reduced $1800 netting you an $800 benefit.
I have not noticed the cost reduction per $1000 to be that great, historcially, however.
So I can only comment that if your discount off of sticker was ~3% that you did fine.
My dealer was able to come up with about $2000 off on an A4 that was ~ $44,500. On the A6, however, the most I could get off (at the beginning of 2005) was $1500 on a $52K car.
Again, my concerns were less with respect to the MSRP than the depreciation and money factors that Audi Financial structures. My experience has been that Audi Financial usually has more generous depreciation numbers than other financial institutions.
Both of these Infinitis are quite nice. However, the M35x is the clear choice here. The G35x is powerful, well appointed and overall I would not have any problems if it were my daily driver -- but even with its improved interior for 2005, it is from that one perspective a notch below the Audi A4's interior. Last year, the G35 "beat" the B6 A4 in a comparo in C&D magazine. The Infiniti was #1, the Audi was #5 (of seven).
The M35x gives up nothing -- it reminds me very much of a somewhat more powerful new Audi A6 3.2 with sport package. The Audi, in relative terms, is sluggish when compared with the M35x, and the interior of the Audi is still at the top of the class -- but the Inifinit's interior is a close second. I liked the Infiniti better than either the RL or the new GS -- but the GS from Lexus, did seem to be the poshest interior in the land. That poshness does not catapult it to a higher status than the Audi however. Audi, regardless of what other things you may have heard, "knows interiors better than anyone!"
So, the M35x with 280HP, 270 pound feet of torque and a 5 speed auto with Infinitis take on RWD biased AWD, is the Japanese BMW (so says at least two auto magazines.) I understand this sentiment.
I wonder if this is an indication that the auto journalists felt that the M handled better than the Audi (Motor Trend, for one, certainly felt it did) since Audis tend to have more understeer than BMW's (coming soon better balanced Audis, but not here today). So net net, I'd take the A4 over the G35 price not part of the equation and vice versa if the deal on the G35x beat the A4 (the G35 is more powerful than the Audis, BTW, big time -- and the warranty is to 60K b2b and 70K on the powertrain.) Are you spotting a trend here?
2. How would you compare the 2005.5 A4 (both engines) with a 1997 A4? (the Business Week article says you've had lots of Audis, so I thought you might have experience with this).
Night and day difference. The new A4 is a jewel (in either guise). If I were getting one with an auto, I'd go ahead and get the 3.2. If a stick would be even remotely possible, I would probably find the 2.0T just perfect (and order it with all the toys, including sport.
3. Having driven the automatic 3.2, how miserable will I be switching from manual? I've driven manual for ages, but I live in Chicago, where you don't get to fully enjoy it. How does the automatic deal with tight curves?
The 6spd tip is wonderful -- caution, it MAY be inflicted with tip lag. I have test driven the 6spd several times and found no lag, but already over on the A6 forum/town hall, some folks seem to have induced it. If it responds to the retrain command, that would probably not be so much an issue that I would avoid it -- I just like sticks, but the A4 3.2 was fantastic and the tip has a sport mode. The tip is intuitive, it knows what and when to do things, it was great on the curves, it held the gear and did not upshift, which allows you to power out of the apex of the curve.
In a world where there was lease price parity, I might not ever have test driven the Acura, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, Jeep Hemi, Cadillac and others too numerous to mention here -- the edge that I believe Audi has lost has more to do with marketing than content or performance. There is something about the feel of an Audi that is ALMOST in a class by itself. Indeed it used to be in a class by itself. Now, however, there are many reasonable alternatives and Audis head in the sand leasing schemes do little to persuade me that they understand that they are perhaps at a point of inflection and that all the good to great carmakers are bringing fine premium AWD cars to the market THIS YEAR!
Hello is this thing on?
Under normal driving conditions the next generation quattro system “biases” 60% of drive torque to the rear axle and 40% to the front. In the U.S. market it looks like only the 2005.5 S4 will have it for now; all quattro-equipped 2007 models are due to be fitted with the new system.
You're a performance enthusiast, so is this new system a big deal to you? Assuming, of course, that you stay with Audi.
I drove the G35, Subi Gt Ltd, checked out the TL. But then saw the A4 on 2/20. The other three don't compare. I'm sure the Passat will be a fine car when it hits the US. But I picked up the A4 2.0 Q manual on 2/24.
No regrets.
No kids to drive around, just a 20 speed racing bike that fits nicely with the rear seats folded.
I wonder if VW Passat 4 motion models will have drop seats when the new ones come out?
My comments about balance, were not just the RWD biased AWD that so many auto journalists go on about -- rather they were a statement that suggested that Audis in comparison to BMW's had too much weight on the front wheels -- that is the current Audis have more than 56% of the total weight on the front end. Some other cars have closer to a 50 50 F/R "balance."
To "shut some people up" (no one in particular), I think Audi will bring RWD biased AWD to their cars in the very near future -- but as long as the engine overhangs the front axle (since it is NOT transverse in most Audis), the balance will be more of an issue, IMHO, than the bias of the AWD system. For the record, Volvo's AWD system is 95% F and 5% rear even though it can shift torque to the rear instantly when needed. The quattro system is fundamentally a 50 50 split, making it 40 60 or whatever seems to me will have less of a dramatic performance impact than would pushing the engine back to better balance the weight.
The performance issues that plague recent Audis are generally understeer induced -- I do not see how biasing the AWD to the rear will make as dramatic a contribution to improved handling as would getting the F/R weight distribution as close to 50 50 as possible.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
At least the RWD biasing of the AWD is responsive to the "criticism" that is "out there" -- completely rooted in fact or not.
This change to RWD biased AWD beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but, to repeat, is NOT the end all be all for performance improvements that one could hope for.
Funny -- the nose heavy RS6 still handled great -- Audis engineers have proven time and time again that they can engineer their cars to handle far better than their lop sided weight distribution suggests would be possible.
Imagine how good it will be when the weight bias is improved AND the new torque split AWD system is brought on line.
I've thought for quite some time that if Audi went to "all quattro all the time" they could achieve more of a 50/50 weight balance, which would greatly improve the attractiveness of the car to me. Let VW be the FWD Audi.
It seems the slightly modified torque split is more of a PR move than anything else.
I heartily endorse your choice of the 2.0T quattro manaul. As Car and Driver put it,
"The 2.0-liter, in particular, provides much more muscular low- and midrange response, with full-boost urge now so vivid that front-drive models have begun to feel the effects of torque steer—something Audi's clever front-suspension geometries had previously repressed. In Quattro all-wheel-drive models, however, the extra thrust simply hauls the car down the road in a way that makes you question the need for the V-6."
Meanwhile, my boys will be marched to the Audi showroom this evening for one last back-seat fitting to see if I am truly out of my mind, "or what."
Reading reviews of the B6 (such as the C&D article you mentioned) made A4 seem uncompetitive. It seems like the new engines in the B7 have brought the A4 back into the ballpark at least. Would you agree?
Quick question: Can you explain what sport mode does on the tiptronic?
Can you elaborate on differences I'll notice between my 97 A4 and the B7? Is it mainly the more powerful engines?
Thanks again for your insightful input.
DL
Refinement quotient is up in the B7. Performance is up. Economy too is improved.
Sport mode: simply put, holds each gear longer. Shifts from lower to higher gears take place at higher RPM's. The car is more responsive since at any one time the engine is at a higher RPM in sport mode than in D mode.
I never counted the A4 out, regardless of a test report -- but Audi needed these new engines to compete in the current higher HP and torque environment we enjoy today.
The full screen MMI navi system is great too -- not quite up to Acura's standards, but a huge improvement over nav lite.
I think VW is adapting a similar rear suspension in the B6
Big thumbs down on the passenger space, as in, "OWWWW-WW, move your seat UP, Dad!!"
So...it appears my little fantasy is over.
Another look at the TL confirmed, plenty of room...plenty of yawns (and claustrophobia trying to see out).
I am now seriously considering sitting tight until the new B6 (2006 VW Passat) is out. It solves all the space problems, makes most of the new A4's virtues available (including the tasty 2.O FSI), and offers a good value even when loaded up with goodies (keyless start, bluetooth phone link, DVD-based navi, 10-channel sound, etc etc etc)
Now if I can just wait until September...
-G.
NOW, the car seats are gone (down to just a booster... SO, I can downsize and upscale)... a 6 and a 9 year old girl need to fit in the back (and they need to still fit when they're 9 and 12...) Fortunately, they're slight of build...
Sorry to hear about your applecart! Now I'm worrying about mine!!!
Help?
Scott
PS: As Mark has pointed out so eloquently...if we could only get leases on the A6 like the 5-series has going right now...