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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

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Comments

  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I find this an interesting post.

    "sometimes, just when you need it most, the electric motor's nickel-metal-hydride battery pack runs out of juice and you're left running strictly on internal combustion."

     

    This is just as accurate as saying that you'll run out of luck trying to find a diesel station for your TDI.

     

    I drive the N. Georgia mountains often, taken long family trips, had my HCH for almost a year and have never once experienced a depleated pack.

     

    "The Hybrid relies on deceleration and regenerative braking to recharge the pack."

     

    You forgot to mention hidden charging, which accounts for around 90% of charging while on the open highway. (City you do need more regen)

     

    "Nine times out of 10, you draw the full assistance of the electric motor by simply flooring the gas pedal"

     

    I've never had to floor it for the required power.

     

    The rest of your post assumes that the HCH electric motor is a powerhouse and a major pulling contributor, which it is not. The electric motor's HP is less than my gasoline garden tractor.

     

    An EX a corvette? You must be mistaking the Civic Si, or you are exaggerating.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not my experience. It was the two guys from Popular Mechanics giving their cross country experience. Comparing the hills of Georgia with Continental divide is a stretch at best. I would imagine they were talking 10 to 20 miles or more, all up hill without any downhills to recharge the battery. This has been brought up before as a negative aspect of the hybrids. It is an interesting read for anyone interested in a hybrid.

     

    http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/7/hyb- rid_vs_gas/index.phtml
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I apologize gagrice, I've just read the article link and found your quote on page 4..

     

    10-20 Mile uphill trek is not typical or normal for 99.99% of us. I have no concern regarding another long family trip, and am planning one for next summer.

     

    My problem with that part of the article:

    "Another reality of the Hybrid is that sometimes, just when you need it most"

    Sometimes = A normal, re-occurring incident.

     

    At least they averaged 42MPG over the trip, compared to C&D's 35MPG. The average over many HCH owners is 47.

     

    Your're right, that is a good article in whole.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    10-20 Mile uphill trek is not typical or normal for 99.99% of us. I have no concern regarding another long family trip, and am planning one for next summer.

     

    No problem on the mix-up. I should have linked the article with the quote. In the West we have a quite a few long uphill stretches. I know of 3 Southern CA, on Interstate 5, 8, & 15. I have not read any posts that indicated a problem with any of the hybrids on those long uphill drives.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So far what I glean from how the discussion is going is one should pick the vehicle that most meets "one's needs" etc.

     

    While it might be true that 99.9% of the time "one" does not need to take into account cross country trips, the flip side might be: not every "one" has to navigate and sit in greater metropolitan area Boston traffic either!!?? There are plenty of other examples. What is curious however, is the UTTER lack of say like Boston and NYC hybrid taxi cabs!

     

    In that sense the Honda Civic platform seems to work the versatility card. You got your two doors, four doors, hatchbacks, coupes, wagons falling in and out of favor. You have automatic, manual, for hybrid CVT. The engine plants are also gas, gas/ hybrid, and W/W, diesel. Since I also did the math and actually bought a Honda Civic gas automatic; the hybrid in no way breaks even at anytime or thing considered normal, and this is against its own line!!! Having a hybrid is almost like wearing a status badge, so in that sense Toyota did a better marketing/recognition job doing the Prius. You can recognize it 1/4 mile away and the Prius is ONLY a gas hybrid.

     
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What is curious however, is the UTTER lack of say like Boston and NYC hybrid taxi cabs!

     

    Good point! Cabs that I ride in here and Alaska are almost always large size vehicles with big trunks easy to get luggage in and out of. All the ones I have recently rode in here in SD are running on CNG. The drivers tell me they are comparable cost to gas.

     

    If it is a cold day in NYC and the cab driver opens the Hatch back on the Prius I would think the passengers would get cold and uncomfortable. It seems the hybrid would be good for city stop and go driving. They could use them in the summer tourist season. I think the Civic is a bit small for a cab. I have never seen one that I can remember.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hybrids are smallish and cannot accomodate the large luggage that many travelers carry to and from airports.

     

    But for congested "in the city" taxis, I would assume they would work fine. That one chap in Canada used a Prius for a taxicab and had fine luck with it.

     

    As far as opening the hatchback and letting cold air into the cabin, the Canada taxi guy had no issues with that, so I think that's probably a non-issue.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:

     

    ___His first taxi with all the miles was the Prius I which was a sedan. I don’t remember if he received an 03 Prius I (sedan) or an 04 Prius II (HB) as the replacement however? 5 minutes of Google should answer that question?

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    ". I would imagine they were talking 10 to 20 miles or more, all up hill without any downhills to recharge the battery."

     

    gagrice:

    I think you may not understand the HSD system. The battery is sometimes charged by regen braking and sometimes charged by the ICE. ICE charging is what would occur at highway speeds, in general.

     

    Also, note that the HSD can get electricity from either the battery or the ICE - the ICE can actually send electricity to the electric propulsion motors, to provide more power. However, that mode is not a fully efficient as having the battery provide electric power; it takes a little HP off of the engine, but my be more efficient if additional torque is needed from the electric motor.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I truly wish there were whole fleets of hybrids that had 100,000, 200,000 300,000 etc. and or more miles under their belts. Untill that time we are truly being only hopeful!?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If you are a Hybrid owner who plans to keep their Hybrid that many miles (I dont - I'm going to trade up to newer, better Hybrids every 3 to 4 yrs) I have good news and bad news:

     

    Bad News First: We don't know if your battery system will die at 100K, 150K, 200K or sooner. With the Priuses, the chances of the battery being incapacitated and thus killing the car are greater than the Honda line because of the way the Toyota system is deeper integrated into the driveline.

     

    Good News: In the case of the Civic Hybrid, it's still a "Civic" under the "Hybrid" badge, so hypothetically, you could still drive it with an UNUSABLE battery system and still get around 30 mpg, if you were in a situation where it had 150K and the battery needed replacement and you could not afford it.

     

    So the future holds marvelous surprises and wonderment for us all !!!! :):)
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I try to keep my autos for 10 years then renew.

     

    At that time my HCH will have around 175K miles.

    My Honda ext warranty covers the battery for 150k and 10 yrs.

     

    If the battery would suddenly crap at 151K, I'd still drive it with the reduced MPG for the extra 25K miles.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    What is curious however, is the UTTER lack of say like Boston and NYC hybrid taxi cabs!

     

    There are no big hybrids out there. Ford Escape is not even close to the medallion cab requirements in NYC. It took T&LC a couple of years and a few bribes from Honda to allow Honda Oddisey/Isuzu Oasis as medallion cabs. Ford followed with Explorer.

    Don't forget that yellow cab owners, not drivers make decisions. And they want the most reliable and least expensive to repair vehicle. RWD US made, cop auctioned Crown Vics, and what ever is left of Chevy Caprice fits the "cheap to reapir" bill. Oddisey fits the "reliable" requirement. I don't know what posessed someone to use Explorer's as cabs.

     

    You put a bullet proof partition behind the driver in the Prius/HCH and there is no room for passengers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You put a bullet proof partition behind the driver in the Prius/HCH and there is no room for passengers.

     

    I forgot about that partition in cabs back east. I was talking to my Cloud 9 shuttle driver the other day and he told me they have the best luck with the GM full size vans. They go an average of 400k miles before selling them. They only get about 250k out of the Ford Vans. You see very few mini-vans in the shuttle business. Once in a while the cab companies use them. I'm sure the domestics are cheaper to repair.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Bluiegod:

     

    ___That was a great post. Quite a bit of information I had no idea about!

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would also agree with you. Another set of reasons why the hybrid is not ready for "PRIME TIME"
  • tdifantdifan Member Posts: 2
    Just a few quick notes:

    The VW TDI is a proven motor. It works.

    VW's seats are really nice, but in Canada, seat warmers are a must.

    I have a 99 Civic EX, and a 01 Jetta TDI, the TDI feels more solid, and is so much easier to drive. There is torque all the time. The Jetta has 20,000 more kilometers than the Civic, because it is hands down the winner for comfort, and fuel economy. The Civic Hybrid maybe have a better EPA rating, but I can drive the crap out of my Jetta and still get 48mpg.

    Best thing for the TDI's is a chip though, (110hp, and 170ft/lbs torque)
  • tdifantdifan Member Posts: 2
    Last tank I was 1100km/s between fill ups, who needs to find a station that pumps diesel!!
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Is it not a well-known fact that the 'hybreds' fare better in city driving conditions (stop-n-go) while the TDIs are far superiour when it comes to longer trips on the highway?

     

    The EPA (Federal goverment body) has defined the means to measure "city" and "highway" MPG to be posted on window stickers. The 'Hybreds' are 'tuned' to make the best of those defined measuring processies.

     

    As an example of 'tuning' a vehicle to look good on paper, all automatic xmisstions are designed to shift into high gear AFTER 60 MPH. (at WOT) This makes the 0-to-60 measurements look the best on paper.

     

    There has been talk of updating the defined EPA measuring process to better reflect real-world conditons.... Of course since the Federal government is involved I do not expect any changes for many years to come.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "LUPO 3L TDI is banned from entering the country."

    .

     

    "FALSE. The Lupo is as welcome here as the other 5 TDIs currently in the U.S. (tourareg, passat, jetta, golf, beetle). Volkswagen simply chooses not to bring it here. Nor the Polo."

     

    .

     

    "So what you are implying is I can go to Europe and import one over here to the USA!?"

     

    .

     

    Irrelevant. You said the Lupo is "banned". It is not. Volkswagen can bring the Lupo the USA whenever they want. In fact, there already ARE two Lupo TDIs in the USA. One is owned by VW for demonstrations, and one is owned by a gentleman near Richmond.

     

    Troy
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Bottom line: I suspect that for the LUPO to be made "acceptable" to meet the US safety requirements, it would have to be many 100s of lbs heavier with all of the safety cageing."

     

    .

     

    You're probably right, but if that deathtrap called the Mini Cooper can pass safety regulations, so too can the Lupo TDI. They have near-identical styles, so the safety features used in the Cooper can be used in the Lupo too.

     

    As for that "Lupo TDI is slow" articles, I see tons of similar articles about the Prius and Civic Hybrids. Half of what they say is out-right lying, and the other half is just flat wrong. The reporters are biased against high mpg diesel & hybrid cars, and they aren't worth listening to.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds:

     

    http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I also think that you are conveniently ignoring the core of what I said. So yes, I stand by what I have said! Another thing I said was you really don't have to listen to what I say, just try importing the LUPO yourself ie be that third LUPO?!! Of course, we will probably appreciate and be entertained by your "trials and tribulations" in this endeavor. All the best!And keep us informed of your "progress."
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    "Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds"

     

    That's really bad.

    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

     

    A previously mentioned magazine article claims a scary situation with an HCH passing trucks on a 20 mile hill with a depleated pack. Wonder if they would even try it in a Lupo?

     

    I imagine it might cost around the price of an HCH, but smaller, dangerously slower, less safe and still pay about $.20 more per gallon of fuel. (At least around Atlanta)

     

    Sounds like it was a wise decision by VW to keep it in Europe.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They must not give a hoot what CARB thinks

     

    VW is the world's leading manufacturer of passenger vehicle diesels. Almost 40% of all vehicles it sells in Canada have a diesel beneath the hood. While recent VW diesels, including the TDI have been impressive - the new 2004 versions are even more so.

     

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/04jetta_tdi_se.htm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The proposed change would (summarize content and impact of proposal):* Allow for the continued sale of VW TDI passenger vehicles in the state of Maine for model years 2004-2006. In this case, Maine’s acceptance of the California New Vehicle Emission Requirements will eliminate the most efficient 5-passenger vehicle on the road today, one that helps to reduce CO2 emissions and our dependence on imported oil. Federal guidelines have accepted this class of vehicle for continued sale in 45 other states. The text of the new or modified rule would read:*

    (8) diesel-powered passenger vehicles that are Federally compliant, including the Volkswagen TDI vehicles, for model years 2004-2006, are considered to be exceptions to Sections 4 (A)

     

    http://www.solarhouse.com/resources/BEP%20Presentation.pdf
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    "Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds"

      

    That's really bad.

    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

      

    A previously mentioned magazine article claims a scary situation with an HCH passing trucks on a 20 mile hill with a depleated pack. Wonder if they would even try it in a Lupo?

      

    I imagine it might cost around the price of an HCH, but smaller, dangerously slower, less safe and still pay about $.20 more per gallon of fuel. (At least around Atlanta)

      

    Sounds like it was a wise decision by VW to keep it in Europe.


     

    If you know that your vehicle is not capable of something, why would you even attempt to do such thing.

     

    Someone driving Lupo would not attempt to pass a semi on an uphill. They are both diesels and have their reasons for going slow up hill. Just follow the semi. Same with the Hybrid, if you know that it is not capable of passing a semi on a long up hill, why even bother and clogging up th eleft lane with your car in addition of the semi holding the right lane. You will create negative publicity for the whole Hybrid line. If someone in the 50 car line up behind you holding up the left lane ever thought of buying a hybrid, they may have their doubts now. Neither Lupo nor Hybrids are racing cars, follow the semi to the top of the hill!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Someone driving Lupo would not attempt to pass a semi on an uphill.

     

    From the articles I have read the Lupo TDI has plenty of power for it's small size. It also passes the EURO4 emissions and UK Safety standards. UK safety standards required the Prius to add the side air bags and rear disc brakes to conform.

     

    The Lupo is not a highway cruiser and is not sold as such. It is a great around town honest 70-80 mpg car. For short runs to the store it would fill a niche that the hybrids are not well suited for. I think at about 60% of the price of a Civic it would be successful over here. They sell in the same price range as a GEM golf cart.

     

    0-62 12.3 seconds, top speed 106 mph, 4 star crash rating, same as the Civic

     

    http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/volkswagen/volkswagen-lupo-1.4-sp- ort-tdi-3dr.asp?switched=on&echo=826289839
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

     

    I think that is a non issue. I was sitting next to a Toyota Echo this morning. I cannot imagine the Lupo being much smaller than that little coupe. And then you have the immensely popular Mini-Cooper. I am sure the Lupo is bigger than that. Plus neither of those cars get near the mileage of the Lupo 1.4 TDI. The 65 mpg combined on the Lupo is 30-35 mpg better than the Echo or Mini-Cooper.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    And then you have the immensely popular Mini-Cooper

     

    Mini also weighs in at about 3000 lbs. A Lupo at 3000 lbs would not be a getting 65 mpg.

     

    Speaking of Mini's, take a Cooper S for a test drive. I have yet to drive a front wheel drive car that was so much fun. The next best front wheel drive car is the current Civic Si, which sells for $10,000 less than Cooper S, similarly equipped.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Impressive fuel economy and looks. However, 10,500 british pounds is far greater than 60 % of the price of a Civic. I'm sure Volkswagen will introduce this vehicle to the US, limit imports, and charge a premium.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm sure Volkswagen will introduce this vehicle to the US, limit imports, and charge a premium.

     

    You are probably right. VW dealers are not discounting any of the TDI models below MSRP. You can get most any of the gas VWs at invoice, they have lots full of them. Can you imagine how many they could sell if CA opened the door for diesel. Out of 320k cars sold in the USA this year only 10% were TDI. Compared to Europe where 50% were diesel and VW sells the most cars in Europe.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Your point about government involvement is very relevant. Currently, car companies are passing off the costs of responsible fuel consumption to the consumer. This is fine for wealthy US citizens and I complement their purchase. However, for working class citizens, a gas-powered car is far more cost effective. The US government needs to adopt more aggressive tactics to favor the purchase of smaller fuel-efficient cars (i.e. non-commerical vehicle weight limits, yearly registration costs that scale with engine displacement or weight, etc.). The current tax break for hybrids basically offsets the dealer markup. Unfortunately, the tactic that has been used in the past will likely be used in the future. That tactic is to unexpectedly increase fuel costs dramatically and send consumers running for more fuel efficient cars. Previous efforts at gradual slight improvements in the fuel economy of factory assembled cars have met resistance by senators like Trent Lott who feels that it is his "right" to ride around in a 5000+ pound gas guzzler.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    (Blueiedgod #229)

    "Same with the Hybrid, if you know that it is not capable of passing a semi on a long up hill"

    The hybrid is capable of passing these.

    (gagrice #231)

    "I was sitting next to a Toyota Echo this morning. I cannot imagine the Lupo being much smaller than that little coupe"

    Yes, the Echo is much smaller than an HCH, which was a big reason I decided against it.

    (john500 #235)

    " Trent Lott who feels that it is his "right" to ride around in a 5000+ pound gas guzzler."

    I think anyone should be able to drive any vehicle they can afford & is legal, from a Lupo to a commercial jet.

    What I don't understand are the full size vehicle owners when they complain about their fuel budget.
  • crazedcommutercrazedcommuter Member Posts: 281
    Hi, gang!! I've decided to finally check out an '03 Jetta TDI for my 110 mile daily commute to the Wash. DC area. The dealer where I checked out the Jetta is asking 18,500 for an '03 GLS with cloth seats ,no heated seats and an 5 speed. It has 22,000 miles, the power opts. and a sunroof. The first question I have is is this a fair price for this car? Second, I haven't driven a VW sice we buried the '84 golf in 1994. Is the TDI reliable? Has VW finally fixed the annoying electrical issues that plagued my '84? Is the TDI Golf a better buy than the Jetta? Any recommendations you guys can give are greatly appreciated.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    I cannot comment on the price but can tell you that my 2003 Jetta TDI is the very best vehicle I have ever owned.

     

    I just returned from an inpromptu trip from Vermont to Colorado and back.(Over 4000 miles in about 4 days) This was about a 70 hour trip where the engine NEVER cooled off!! We had 3 drivers that took turns on this non-stop trip.

     

    The TDI engine was MARVELOUS! It can cruze at 80MPH for hours on end. (Posted speed limit was 75 in Colorado) The mountian passes were a NON-issue for the trubocharged TDI. (The thin air and steep grades make NON turbocharged engines seem whimpy) Of course, the >52MPG was the best part of the trip.

     

    It still amazes me that I can drive over 100 miles and the fuel guage barely leaves FULL.

     

    In response to your question about wiring issues. I am only aware of the "coolant migration issue" that may be an issue and I check my Jetta regularly for this issue. (Easy to detect and correct... VERY expensive to fix the damage it can cause.)
  • crazedcommutercrazedcommuter Member Posts: 281
    Thanks for the comment on the '03 Jetta. What is the coolant migration issue and how can it be checked?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Here is the video about the "coolant migration issue"

     

    http://www.cincitdi.com/richc/coolantmigration.html
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    That is not a good price. You should be able to get that price on a new 2005 (invoice) not a used 2004. Remaining 2004s including TDIs are being offered at $4,500 off MSRP in Houston. The new 2006 Jetta will be coming out in March 2005. See the latest Motor Trend for some pictures and a blip on the car. 7 inches longer 24.5 cubic foot trunk. TDI will be offered.

     

    I have reasearched a lot of cars and really like the TDI. I drove a 2005 TDI manual 5-speed and was impressed with the acceleration ( and that is not an easy comment from me).

     

    Good Luck,

     

    MidCow
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Remaining 2004s including TDIs are being offered at $4,500 off MSRP in Houston.

     

    What dealer might still have a 2004 Jetta or Passat TDI available. I pulled up the Houston dealers and cannot find any 2004 TDIs available. I would buy either a Passat or Jetta Wagon TDI.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Best place to discuss prices paid, deals, etc for TDI's is in the Prices Paid & Buying Experiences message board. Here is the link to the discussion "kirstie_h, "Volkswagen TDI Models: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #, 12 Oct 2004 9:17 am">Volkswagen TDI Models: Prices Paid & Buying Experience
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14 seconds"

      

    That's really bad. Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

     

    .

     

    European emissions/safety equipment already matches U.S. standards, so there'd be virtually no difference in weight. And yeah 14 seconds is kinda slow, but not much slower than the Original Prius is (car&driver) ... do you think the Original Prius is slow/unsafe?

     

    Also, I & many others would be happy with 14 second acceleration in exchange for 75/90 city/highway MPG results. The Lupo merely has to get us to work. It's NOT a race.

     

    Driving a Lupo 3L is about saving the planet, conserving dwindling resources, and reducing harmful pollution. Those 3 goals are FAR more important to me than a winning a drag race.

     

    troy

     

    PLEASE READ: http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Also, I & many others would be happy with 14 second acceleration in exchange for 75/90 city/highway MPG results. The Lupo merely has to get us to work. It's NOT a race. It's about saving the planet, conserving oil, and reducing pollution. Those 3 goals are FAR more important to me than a winning a drag race.

     

    Well said. I could use one to replace my 1990 Mazda as a runabout. I don't need speed and just enough room for groceries etc. They don't cost anymore than the GEM I considered for running errands. The GEM is not allowed on streets posted over 25 MPH in CA. I tried to save our Planet. Just run into the CARB roadblocks at every corner.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    BTW, the "size" of the Lupo (not the weight) is the same as a Mini Cooper. It's a five-seat car, no trunk.

     

    And, you might want to consider that new Prius Plus car... when it's finally finished in 2006, it's supposed to go ~20 miles on pure EV. Just plug-it-in each night & burn zero gasoline.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just plug-it-in each night & burn zero gasoline.

     

    That would be a good choice. The problem with any of the current hybrids for me is they are not very efficient the first 2-3 miles. 90% of my driving is under 3 miles to all the stores. The Prius II is reported to only get about 30 mpg when used for less than 5 minute trips.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"The problem with any of the current hybrids for me is they are not very efficient the first 2-3 miles."-end quote

     

    That is not any different than ANY car. All ICE cars need to "warm up" to be most efficient. The Hybrids are "no less or more" efficient until the engine reaches optimal temps.

     

    That is NOT a Hybrid deficiency.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    electrictroy #245

    "European emissions/safety equipment already matches U.S. standards"

    I wasn't aware of this.

     

    "The Lupo merely has to get us to work. It's NOT a race"

    My post didn't mention any race, and it was in reference to the mag article complaining on a HCH with a depleted pack.

     

    I'm not getting +60MPG tanks either by seeing how fast I can accelorate. Personally I'd be turned away from a vehicle that would likely be as expensive, much smaller, slower, less safe, burns fuel that is less easy to find but more expensive to pump.

     

    larsb:

    "The Hybrids are "no less or more" efficient until the engine reaches optimal temps."

    You are right. The kids school is 3 miles round trip and the best I can squeeze out so far is about 48MPG, I usually get around 45.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Hybrids are "no less or more" efficient until the engine reaches optimal temps.

     

    Maybe it does not affect the IMA type hybrids as it does the HSD in the Prius. I remember one Prius owner complaining of 30 mpg average. The consensus among the other Prius owners was his very short commute of less than 5 minutes. To go from the high 40s to 30 mpg is significant. I have never had a car with that kind of mileage difference when comparing long trips to short trips. Those with VW TDI vehicles indicated that short trips made little difference in their city mileage.
  • crazedcommutercrazedcommuter Member Posts: 281
    Thanks for the answer on the coolant migration. I drove an '03 jetta on 1/4/05 and the dealer wouldn't drop off the 18500 price. He kept mumbling that people are flying from Calif. to Md. just to buy his TDI's and driving them back as used cars.That may be so but he hasn't sold any new Golf TDI's in 3 weeks. I gave him an offer the other night on an 05 Golf GLI and he hasn't called me back since.
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