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Natural Gas fueled vehicles

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  • az5az5 Member Posts: 2
    kitapsever@hotmail.com
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    This is most interesting - a potential competitor for FuelMaker, and better yet some $avings for us home fuelers. Just hope Homeland Secruity doesn't stop them at the border!
    Keep on it and post updates for us all here.
    It will be interesting to follow as I believe Honda owns roughly 20% of FuelMaker, so there will either be some FuelMaker price concessions and better availability or strong resistance keeping the competition off shore and far away.
  • tstiktstik Member Posts: 9
    Did anybody ever get any info from patcng (user from a few post up) about the fm competitor or the fm mods?
  • ngvdriversngvdrivers Member Posts: 5
    I just bought my '07 Civic GX last month and had trouble finding NGV/CNG decals too. So I designed some of my own and put them on a cafepress.com shop (ngvdrivers.com). There are some "cleanest on earth" decals as well as some custom decals that look similar to the blue diamond CNG decal. They look cool placed near the blue CNG decal that's already on the car. I put the one with 4 small diamonds in it above and to the left of the CNG diamond and I get questions about it about every other day. I put the "cleanest on earth - natural gas vehicle" decal just above the chrome CIVIC emblem on the trunk and I've received several compliments on that.

    Has anyone else noticed that the Civic GX's no longer have a "GX" emblem on the car anywhere? At least there wasn't one on mine. So, I bought a "G" and an "X" from chromeemblems.com for pretty cheap (free shipping) and put it below the CIVIC emblem right aligned. The emblems from chromemblems.com are really nice. In fact, I think they provide custom emblems for some car manufacturers.
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    You could likely order the real "GX" from the parts department at a Honda dealer for any 2005 or older model, as they no longer are branding the various new Civic models for some reason....makes them all appear the same so you can't tell the spendy ones from the others I guess.

    Thanks for the links on the decals.
  • marty2611marty2611 Member Posts: 8
    All, I have a 2000 Ford Contour with 48000 miles. The transmission has gone out and they want $3,000 to fix it. Has anyone tried to remove the Natural Gas system and put on another car such as a Ford Focus? Or should I just part it out? It has the new module that Ford replaced under warranty and I just hate to junk it out. Thanks
  • kaseyjones1kaseyjones1 Member Posts: 7
    Where are you located? How much do you want for the car?

    Thank you,
    Jim Kuhlman
    York, PA
  • adeaadea Member Posts: 44
    Marty...the cng kits are only for certain cars...I doubt that there is one for the Focus, so you won't be able to transfer your system to another. But, you may be able to get another transmission cheaper than 3K, depending on where you are. We have a Geo Prizm here in AZ, and all the transmission places wanted 3K also for a new/rebuilt one, but we found a mechanic that had someone rebuild one for $750 and then our mechanic installed it for $100 for a total of $850 and it works great!
    Garry
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    1. You might consider donating it to a local community college automotive program. The CNG aspect might be of special interest there. You can get a tax credit.
    2. Check out more places to quote the transmission fix. That $3K seems rather off the scale... With a warranty replaced compuvalve, that car should run a LONG time. Just remember imported oil is not getting cheaper.

    I own 2 of the same model with replaced compuvalves - everything is running quite OK. One will be for sale shortly, to be replaced with a Civic GX.
  • ecofuelecofuel Member Posts: 2
    How much do you want for your Contour?
  • ecofuelecofuel Member Posts: 2
    Can you email me your phone number? I would like to talk to you about extending the Fuelmaker hours.
  • d_linkd_link Member Posts: 17
    Please reply with information on your FuelMaker FMQ-36 (is it actually an FMQ-2-36?). How many hours do you have on the compressor? Do you have an indoor fill attachment or is it only for outdoor?

    We have a Honda Civic GX and have owned it new since Dec. 1998. We are not impressed with Phill, especially since FuelMaker originally told us that it would cost $2,000 the first year and would drop to $1,000 within a year or two. We almost purchased a used FMQ-2-36 5 years ago, but held off waiting for Phill. That was a mistake, since Phill came out $700 higher than the used FMQ-2-36.

    We live in California, near Sacramento, but have relatives in Queen Creek, so transportation would be an easier problem to solve.

    Thanks for the information.
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Marty I hate to say this but your Contour is probably worth more in parts than in the whole. There are a lot of Contour owners out there with bad Compuvalves that would probably pay $1000 for it. The tank is worth a potential $500. The engine again to another CNG Contour owner $750 - $1500. You add these up and it's probably more than what you paid for the car. I don't carry Contours or 01 GX's for the precise problems you are experiencing. But if you want to replace the tranny any way I agree the price is high, you can get a low mile junk yard tranny with a warranty for about $750. Plus another $500 or so to inatall it. But I will warn you this will not be the last of your problems with this car, it's just the beginning. I am only speaking from experience I have sold over 30 Contours and what it cost me to fix them and make them right I ending up losing a lot of money. I carry pretty much every year make and model of CNG vehicles but you will never find either one of these cars anymore on my lot.

    Murphy
  • adeaadea Member Posts: 44
    Marty...like I said before...I know a mechanic that will have one rebuilt (like new) for $750 plus about $100-150 labor to take out the old one and install the new one. If you pay over $1000 you are paying TOO much.
    Garry
  • epnfrnepnfrn Member Posts: 87
    something that has always bothered me about public CNG stations is their means for pressurizing the gas. part of the reason i chose the GX (as with many of us) is the clean nature of the car. but every CNG station that i've been to has a big, ugly diesel engine that is used to pressurize the gas. often it is hidden away, but at my local Berkeley Trillium it is right next to the pumps, and often scares the hell out of me as it fires up. i don't know if all stations have such an inefficient way of doing things, but at the Trillium, i can not even fill my tank 5 GGE w/out the diesel engine kicking on and running for an excess of 5 minutes (i sat and timed it ... damn scientists always have to be some empirical). so 5 minutes of big pollution (this isn't one of the new breed of clean diesels) for my CLEAN lifestyle.

    is anyone else bothered by this?? the net pollution of this combination must be worse than just running gas or even diesel. clearly, an electric compressor (as in Phil, FMQ) is the better way to go. and yes, i recognize that electricity is coming from some burning at the power plant, but this is infinitely more efficient than these big diesel engines.

    thoughts?
  • marty2611marty2611 Member Posts: 8
    That is interesting. Here in Utah, they have a regular car engine that is running on CNG to compress the gas. Not sure why a gas company would want to purchase Diesel to run their compressors.
  • adeaadea Member Posts: 44
    I don't know if they use diesel engines here in AZ, but I do know that Trillium puts OIL into your system as I've had over $1300 in repairs now because of it, so even though there is a station less than 3 miles from me, I drive 28 miles once a week to get CLEAN fuel.
    Garry
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    Sounds like you found a real blooper!
    Maybe a phone call or conversation with someone in charge at Trillium to ask why, and explain the environmental concerns. Then politely suggest they seriously need to get a clean diesel engine or convert to electricity.
    Later on if nothing happens, contact the state or local DEQ agency, or CARB if they cover that area. I would think at minimum an air quality pollution (not to mention the noise) situation exists that should be investigated, etc. That application hardly qualifies as rural agricultural irrigation pumping needs...
  • epnfrnepnfrn Member Posts: 87
    murphy -- good ideas, and i will start with calling them. i am concerned that further action would result in them leaving entirely ... which of course would suck, as they are the closest to my home (20mi).

    thanks,
    b
  • epnfrnepnfrn Member Posts: 87
    got a reply from Trillium, and they say the engine running the compressor in Berkeley is CNG-powered. i'm still amazed, given how loud and raucous it sounds ... other Berkeley users: does it sound like a diesel?? Murphy -- could a big CNG engine sound like a diesel? i'm happy if it is CNG :)

    thanks,
    b
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    cng powered diesel is probably what you are referring to

    ST
  • bob9876bob9876 Member Posts: 2
    Murphy
    You seem to know a lot about Contours. I bought one used a few months ago. It seems the compuvalve has gone and will only now run on regular gas. I had a certified mechanic check it out. He said the new ones are $1K to $1.5K.
    Do you have any suggestions on where to get a used one from a reseller? Thanks.

    Bob
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    If your Contour is within 8 years / 80,000 miles since put in service, FORD will replace the compuvalve under warranty.
    You did not mention the year or mileage so likely you are past the warranty.
    Maybe try doing a phone or Internet search of auto dismantlers (junk yards) and find a used one...
    Good luck.
  • marty2611marty2611 Member Posts: 8
    Bob,

    Two items, first, the compuvalve has an 8 year 80,000 mile warranty from Ford. If you are in that range, you can get it replaced for free. You may have to push your dealer to find it as I did but it is there. Second, if you are out of that range, I have a 2000 Ford Contour that the transmission went out at 46k miles and I am going to part it out on e-bay. The compuvalve was replaced about 8 months ago by Ford and is the new style. I am traveling now but will be listing it in 2 weeks or so.
  • bob9876bob9876 Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the thoughts. I was not able to get back to this all week. The car is out of warranty as it is a 1999 with 100k. Marty - Let me know about the resale part. I am guessing that the 2000 part will work on a 1999.
  • mlancecolvinmlancecolvin Member Posts: 5
    Is it possible to replace the problematic automatic with a standard transmission? I realize you would have to put in a clutch and gearshift/linkage - but is it doable? (Seems it would solve that particular problem...)
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Bob - I have not dealt with Contours in quite some time. Last I tried I paid $980 for a compuvalve (my cost) - which is a common item to fail along with the trannies. $1k- $1500 soundss right to me. I really don't suggest repairing this vehicle though. It will turn into a money pit. Compuvalve now, tranny later, ect... You can part it out for more than it's worth whole. The car was a bad design to begin with. Then the CNG system on this car was engineered even worse. the Compuvalve on the under side of the engine 6 inches from the ground is not so smart. I learned all this the hard way after selling about 30 of them in my early days and losing a lot of money in the process.The Cavalier is a much better sub for the Contour. Civic is even better. In comparison the cavalier does nto have a compuvalve but a low pressure regulator, that if required replacement is $250 from GM at www.gmpartsdirect.com

    I will not sell Contours anymore or take them in on trade. I stand behind all my cars and I just can't afford to stand behind a Contour.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter seeks to talk with consumers who own a natural gas vehicle. Please send the make and model of your vehicle along with your daytime contact information to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, November 14, 2007.
  • jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    How can we do that when the 14th was the day before you posted it?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Doh! Deadline changed to today.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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  • nostrom0nostrom0 Member Posts: 44
    Hi,

    Can you send me a sticker as well?
    My email is in my user profile.

    Thanks,

    Bud Raymond.
  • jimcarr3jimcarr3 Member Posts: 2
    I am interested in buying a Honda GX. However, natural gas is not available in my area. I would like to know if these cars can run on propane, or if not, what needs to be done to allow them to use propane.
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    The GX is very CNG specific. The engine mechanical parts would work just fine , but it has the special cng specific fuel injectors and ecm. If you want a propane or bi-fuel light truck or car, contact Murphy at CNGMOTORS.COM. Ford , Dodge and GM made them for several years. If it can be found, he will find one for you.

    Just curious, why propane ? it costs as much as gasoline, unless you have a free or almost free supply.

    If I could find a dedicated propane vehicle meeting california ulev or sulev emission standards, I would buy one myself , but only for carpool lane access.
  • jimcarr3jimcarr3 Member Posts: 2
    Thank you for the answer to my question, Lakewood.

    Why propane? Because it isn't just about money. Although the ecological aspects of alternative fuel cars are important to me, there is a more practical reason. I have been monitoring the output of the major crude oil producers, and I don't like what I see. Output for all of them is in decline. Meanwhile consumption continues to rise. Most alarming, consumption by the producers themselves is rising even faster than industrial newcomers like China and India. (Saudi Arabia, our supplier of last resort, is in the lead here.) This leaves less and less oil for them to supply to an outside world that is consuming more and more crude. I remember the gasoline shortage during the Carter presidency with long lines just to get to a gas pump and many people in my area not being able to get sufficient gasoline at any price. And that situation was not nearly as serious as what we are facing today. Like most people, my family has to have at least one car that can keep running in such a situation.

    My ideal car is a plugin electric; but they won't be available for two years at least. Fuel cell cars are out because natural gas is not available in my area. Hybrids, although they use less of it, still need gasoline.
  • d_linkd_link Member Posts: 17
    Propane is definitely much more expensive than CNG. It also has a much greater environmental impact than CNG, pollutes more, and is much less energy dense (lower power and worse mileage). CNG is also becoming available in several locations as biomethane, created from rotting garbage, animal waste, and other cellulosic waste. These experimental plants have the potential to diversify the energy market outside of the petro industry. Farmers in California are already working with PG&E on methane reclamation projects that greatly reduce their greenhouse gas contributions.

    As to PHEVs not being available for at least two years, they are available NOW. The only negatives are that you will void your Toyota warranty if you have one of the Lithium Ion battery packs installed in your spare tire well and will be out $10-$12K. I just had a demo ride in a PHEV Toyota Prius this week. It is the first of 10 PHEV Prius which the University of California at Davis Institute of Transportation Studies will have available for a long-term study of their durability, emissions, equivalent mpgs, etc. The battery pack is 5KWh from Hymotion. During the entire demo for my middle school Computer Applications students (part of their research project on Alternative Fuel Vehicles), the gasoline engine started only once. The vehicle was well over 100mpg on its way to my school and excited my students tremendously.

    Biomethane is increasingly available in Sweden, Canada has a research facility in Vancouver, and PG&E is working toward capturing methane before it goes to waste and further damages the environment. A PHEV running on biomethane and battery power is my ideal. A serial hybrid, in my opinion, would be more efficient than a parallel with a constant speed CNG generator recharging the batteries, rather than dual duty of recharging and driving the wheels. This would also solve the problem of PHEVs possibly being "dirtier" than hybrids without pure EV mode. More on that when UC Davis finishes their study with the 10 Prius PHEVs.
  • rudylhernandezrudylhernandez Member Posts: 1
    I'm looking to purchase a used Honda GX (natural gas) does any one out there know of a used car web sight and or dealer that sells them please let me know :)
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    www.cngchat.com
  • d_linkd_link Member Posts: 17
    I have found multiple sites, but the only one with a large inventory and quality assistance is:

    http://www.cngmotors.com/index.php

    Good hunting. We have enjoyed our 1998 GX for close to 80,000 miles now.
  • lee14ulee14u Member Posts: 7
    Is well gas, direct from well without the propane and butane removed, ok to run through a refuelling device and run in the vehicle?
  • jim314jim314 Member Posts: 491
    This is an interesting question, but one which is not of much practical importance to very many people. My guess is that unpurified well gas would not an acceptable input to a home refueling unit for fueling a GX.

    "Natural gas is a gaseous fossil fuel consisting primarily of methane but including significant quantities of ethane, propane, butane, and pentane—heavy hydrocarbons removed later on as condensate—as well as carbon dioxide, nitrogen, helium and hydrogen sulfide." wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas

    The levels of hydrogen sulfide present would probably overwhelm the adsorption unit designed to remove the mercaptan odorant in commercial natural gas, and the levels of uncombustible gasses could be significant. You'd never know how far you could go on a fill. Then there would be the problem of the heavier hydrocarbons possibly condensing to a liquid in the tank.

    But this raises the question of feeding a Fuel Maker with gasified LPG (aka propane), say an LPG designed for a cold climate. What would happen?
  • kscngkscng Member Posts: 12
    Hello lee14u, please do NOT listen to jim314 as well gas can definitely be used to fuel your cng car!!! Lots of people all over the country do this.

    I've personally met a guy in PA who is in same situation as you. He is looking into what needs added (like dryer, etc.) and Fuelmaker to compress the cng. Check into what tax credits are available where you live (in CA, UT, & OK there are state tax credits, on top of Federal tax credit). Fed will give you $1,000 for purchase of Fuelmaker (but only if new). You might consider used Fuelmaker as they are very reliable - - C3 and FM4 would be 3,000 psi models, while newest model is FMQ2-36 which is 3,600 psi model (all these models compress at about 1 gge per hour). Of these, best is fmq2-36 as heads will go 4,000 hours before needing rebuild. I would NOT recommend Phill as only compresses 0.5 gge per hour and quite expensive once you consider rebuild cost of compressor and fact that it only goes 2,000 hours before needing head rebuilt. You could also add a cascade of few cng storage tanks and have your own fast-fill.

    In helping PA guy with well do his research, found terrific cng user also in PA who has been through all this on his country farm. He's built thorough website that documents his natural gas well being drilled on his farm, and all the efforts needed to get that well gas ready for use in Fuelmaker. Brian actually BUILT HIS OWN DRYER and lists all the parts needed, along with suppliers he used. You can do the same with simple supplies like pvc plastic pipe, etc. See website at:
    http://littlemetalshop.com/

    Also, I would recommend you also join www.cngchat.com which has lots of cng information as well. Finally, see www.cngprices.com which is terrific for locating public cng pumps - - backup to this site is Alternative Fuels Data Center (Federal website) at: http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/findpane.asp

    Go CNG !!! Spread The Word as CNG is definitely what is needed all across the USA to reduce dependence on foreign crude oil, AND drastically reduce pollution. Pressure local gas company, cities, post office, transportation companies, etc. to either open new public cng pump, or open a private cng site so that public can use it with just a credit card.

    Everyone in USA also need to pressure US auto dealers to bring more cng cars to USA. GM has GM/Opel Zafira cng (sold everywhere except USA) ; Ford has Focus cng (sold everywhere except USA) ; Mercedes (various models sold everywhere except USA) ; VW has Ecofuel Caddy cng & recent announcement of Passat bi-fuel (PLEASE urge VW to bring both of these to USA!!!!) For now, best and only car sold in USA is Honda Civic GX (dedicated cng) which has been named Cleanest Car On The Planet for 5 years straight . . I have one and love it!!
  • lee14ulee14u Member Posts: 7
    A really big THANK YOU to you guys, especially you kscng for all the new resources. Jim314, I appreciate you responding also. You both gave my renewed confidence in this forum. Stay tuned - maybe we'll all learn something about the properties of ng.

    I did purchase a newly rebuilt FMQ2-36 and very close to bringing online - 220 elec and ng supply plumbing now complete. Still dealing with issues of adequate water column and filters. I should have the analysis results back this Monday of the specific properties associated with my particular ng supply direct from well-tap and I will continue to post related info as I progress. Well see if this thread catches a few of us out there on the fringe. Now, on to the research of the material kscng provided. Thanks again.
  • kscngkscng Member Posts: 12
    Hello patcng,

    Curious whether the idea of converting 3,000 psi to 3,600 psi is safe?? Does it just require changing the refueling male fitting?? Any ecm changes needed?? I've got 2000 Contour that I'd like to change to 3,600 psi.

    Also, I just bought used fmq2-36 and was curious if that unit could run past 4,000 hour limit imposed by Fuelmaker??

    Please email back to cng_across_usa@yahoo.com

    Thanks !!
  • lee14ulee14u Member Posts: 7
    kscng (David) Would you have contact infor for Brian McKay in PA? No contact info on his site. Or... would you maybe contact him and ask him if he'd be willing to talk with me. I'd sure like to know how all is working out.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Hi, just an FYI - please don't post private contact info in here. It's a publicly-accessible forum so we would have to remove that post since we can't verify that the person would want their contact info posted. (your e-mail addys in your profile are, however, only accessible to registered members)

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • kscngkscng Member Posts: 12
    Lee14u - - - all I that know from looking at the Little Metal Shop website is his email. Look at the bottom of his website.

    I've asked for update from my cng friend in PA who I know has talked with Brian about how his well and Fuelmaker process all went. If he has Brian's phone number, I will send you private message.

    Also, if you'll look at setup in website, his well has some equipment that cleans out the unwanted chemicals, etc. before the line is ran up to his home-made dryer, then finally on to Fuelmaker for compression.
  • kscngkscng Member Posts: 12
    Lee14u - - - also forgot to tell you about a terrific cng website:

    www.cngprices.com

    This is excellent website for locating PUBLIC cng pumps (just type in city and state) and website tells you current price, hours of operation, method of payment required, etc.

    I use the cngprices website as a supplement to the AFDC website by Fed's which lists both private and public cng pumps . . ie sometimes private cng pump sites can be convinced to become public. Also, in a severe pinch, a private pump might let you fill up your dedicated cng vehicle if you're going to run out!!
  • lee14ulee14u Member Posts: 7
    Thanks again - I look fwd to hearing from you again. I've had a blast building my version of Brian's dryer.
    LEE
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    CNG powered vehicles are rapidly spreading everywhere especially in Asia & South America. This site give interesting stats on it
    http://ngvgroup.com/index.php?nav=estadisticas&PHPSESSID=062d6598b7cb1de342078a3- bedbf5136
    According to it, there are 7.9 million CNG powered vehicles worldwide.

    Also a Plastic LPG cylinder is being introduced in India which is lightweight. Pretty soon, Plastic CNG cylinder which may be lighter and durable and can carry more gas may be introduced soon giving a big boost to CNG powered vehicles.
    http://publication.samachar.com/pub_article.php?id=1558492&navname=Business%20&m- oreurl=http://publication.samachar.com/mumbaimirroronline/business/business.php&- homeurl=http://business.samachar.com
  • lee14ulee14u Member Posts: 7
    Am in touch with Brian of PA now. Also, I'm in the process of building my desiccant filter. Unfortunately, I am a little sidetracked with some repairs to my 01 F-150. Had a miss in cylinder #2 - seems to be the coil. Taking it apart I found a broken cng fuel injector sleeve. I may have broken it during disassembly. Anyway, I found a pretty good source for cng parts out of Fresno, CA. Hope to have it all back together sometime early next week.
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