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Toyota Prius v. ??? (fill in the comparison)

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Child Safety
    Prius - 43 (The Highest ever recorded for any car)"

    The highest since December 2003, that is...
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "You are half-correct. Frontal impact tests cannot be compared across vehicles of significantly different weights. But side impact tests can be compared across all vehicles because the same size/weight sled is used to ram every vehicle. "

    From the NHTSA site, talking about side impact testing (emphasis mine):

    "For side crash tests, crash-test dummies representing an average-sized adult are placed in the driver and rear passenger seats (driver’s side) and secured with the vehicle's seat belts. The side crash test represents an intersection-type collision with a 3,015 pound barrier moving at 38.5 mph into a standing vehicle."

    The Excursion weighs over 6000 lbs; the Toyota Land Cruiser has a gross vehicle weight of 6800 lbs, and the Toyota Sequoia has a 6600 lbs gross weight (subtract about 1200 lbs for curb weights).

    That is twice what the Prius (and all other cars) are tested against. Thus my argument that one would be safer in a "T-Bone" accident in a larger car.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Remember, the NHSTA test was on a Prius without the Side Air Bags. Hopefully they'll have the airbag one up soon.

    There is no crash difference between the Euro and US Prii, so the Euro test is much more indicative.

    The 'feature' differences between the models would have no effect on the crash test, as I have explained before. You CAN buy the exact same car, as far as crash safety features, in the US.

    And it's not an Italian Test, It's the European New Car Assessment Programme, the EU equivalent of the NHTSA. It's also used by Australia and New Zealand for their ratings.

    The Italian Link was to an article, reporting on, among other things, Toyota's design and testing philosophy for the Prius. The Land Cruiser Test was a Toyota Design test. As I stated earlier, they designed, and tested, the Prius to be as safe as possible in collisions with larger vehicles. They PLANNED for it, which is something they do very well.

    Bottom line, if you want a Mid-Size car (or, in Europe a "Large" car), the Prius is one of the safest, if not the safest ever made.

    If you feel you need a Land Cruiser to be safe, then by all means get one, but I hear they fare very poorly in head on collisions with 18 Wheelers, unless they manage to roll over out of the way :)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    The SUV argument is rather silly for those of us in the north.

    Stopping is far more important on snow & ice than the ability to get going, since most front-wheel drives are quite capable now... especially with the availability of traction-control becoming common.

    All that weight in a monster-size SUV is very difficult to handle when you discover you are going too fast on a slippery surface.

    JOHN
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Heck there goes stevedebi's bigger is safer theory and I about had him sold on a F750

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the tests are effectively the same, does the US accept the EU tests for cars entering into the US market? Are the side airbags now standard on the Prius as they are in Europe?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Are the side airbags now standard on the Prius as they are in Europe?

    Only the base model doesn't have side airbags. All the others have them.

    By the way, all unqualified questions from now on will be answered with 2005 references... since the 2004 is no longer being produced.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    All that weight in a monster-size SUV is very difficult to handle when you discover you are going too fast on a slippery surface.

    If you are on glare ice and it is 30 degrees you better drive accordingly. I have not driven a car with traction control on ice so I will not make any judgment. I see cars, pickups & SUV type vehicles all in the ditch when people drive on ice like it was dry pavement. It happens on a daily basis in Anchorage. I would say more SUVs end up in the ditch than anything else. People think they are a lot better on ice and they are not. It is slightly better after everyone has their studded snow tires mounted after the first couple snow falls. Then the roads take a beating.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you feel you need a Land Cruiser to be safe, then by all means get one

    You forgot I did my Land Cruiser in 1964. It was the one with the small side windows. I do wish I had it now. It is worth many times more than the $2400 it cost new. I don't like what they have done to them. Not a good off roader like the old style. Just that poor copy of a Chevy six. Many parts were interchangeable.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, you've convinced me. Anyone who is reckless enough to put their children in any vehicle less than 6000 pounds GVW is risking their health and safety. In fact, it should be a criminal offense. Anyone driving children in any vehicle less than 6000 pounds should be pulled over and charged with child endangerment. Twenty years in the state pen is not too severe a punishment for such a crime. This law would have the side benefit of helping the U.S. automakers, because of all the expensive large trucks and SUVs they would sell. Another side benefit is that with so many large vehicles on the road, traffic congestion would increase and average speeds would decrease, making fatal collisions almost impossible in urban areas.

    After we've corrected this problem here, we can go after the reckless drivers overseas. Think of the millions of drivers in Europe and Asia who regularly risk the lives of their children by transporting them in small, unsafe cars that cannot withstand a broadside collison by a large truck. And how about those despicable parents who let their older children ride bicycles to school and work every day? They need to buy a large truck or SUV and transport their families in safety.

    The fact we'd have to find some way of doubling oil production around the world in order to allow everyone to drive these large vehicles is a small price to pay for ensuring the safety of our children.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I have feared for the safety of children in SUVs quite a number of times. Watching their small body climb out from such a height is really scary.

    And naturally, they won't wait for the parent to help them. They push the door open, which is heavy and invites a fall, and then either jump or struggle to a tumble. It's not a pretty sight.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Bravo, that was good. You are wasting your literary talents on this forum. You should be in the "why I hate SUV forum"

    harlequin1971 "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" Aug 6, 2004 5:44pm
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As I've stated, I don't hate SUVs. There are many good reasons to own one. There are also many lame reasons to own one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Rather than comparing the Prius to big SUVs and trucks, how about comparing it to 5-door hatchbacks of the same general size, offered in the U.S.?

    I did that comparison earlier this year, including a financial comparison. Here are my findings, FWIW. These comments are all based on '04 models. Note that the intended use of the car is as the main vehicle for a family of 5, children aged 8 to 15, driving 10,000 miles a year mostly in a city/suburban environment. Main drivers would be my wife and (soon) oldest son, and therefore it would have an automatic tranny. After about 6 years I would turn the car over to my middle son for college.

    Prius: Undisputed champion in fuel economy. Mixed bag on features--has voice-activated nav system, VSC, Bluetooth, and Smart Entry & Start available, and ABS/traction standard, but doesn't offer features like height-adjustable driver's seat, MP3 stereo, moonroof, and leather. One of the most comfortable rides, but not sharp in handling. Excellent warranty on hybrid components, but short bumper-to-bumper warranty. One of the best for rear-seat leg room. One of the most expensive, especially when loaded. PZEV-AT emissions.

    Mazda6i: One of the best in handling and cargo capacity. IMO the best looking 5-door hatchback. Good driving position. Good room in back seat--not quite as much leg room as in the Prius. OK fuel economy--low for the class. Good bumper-to-bumper warranty. One of the most expensive models--a bit less than the Prius due to incentives, but will cost more to operate due to fuel costs.

    Mazda3s: Perhaps the best handling and best 0-60 in the group. Good driving position. Considerably less room in the back seat than the Prius. Good bumper-to-bumper warranty. Rather expensive relative to others because of a lack of incentives. SULEV emissions.

    Matrix/Vibe: Compares very well in interior room and cargo room with the Prius--a little tighter in the rear, but more cargo space. OK ride and handling. Not much performance except with the more expensive 170 hp engine, and then the power is usable only at higher revs. Driving position OK but not great. Short warranty. Costs a few thousand less than the Prius (XR model) but TCO would be only a little less over 6-7 years. Looks are an acquired taste; I like the Matrix better than the Vibe. ULEV emissions.

    Focus ZX5: Interior room compares well to the Prius except for length of cargo area and rear seat leg room. One of best blends of ride and handling. Need to go with Premium model to get rear seat where only part of it can be folded flat. Driving position and seat not comfortable. Short bumper-to-bumper warranty. Costs a little less than the Matrix. SULEV emissions available.

    Elantra GT: Very low price (about $13,000 fully loaded with automatic, moonroof, and ABS/traction at the time I was shopping). Good blend of ride and handling. About same cargo space as Prius, but less rear seat leg room. Great driving position. Great warranty. OK fuel economy. ULEV emissions (SULEV version not available in my state).

    Malibu Maxx: Great rear seat room--most in the group. One of the biggest cargo areas of the group. OK fuel economy and good power with the V6. Good ride, OK handling. Some unique otions like rear-seat DVD and remote start. Short warranty. Cost about as much (with V6) as the Prius, but would cost much more over time due to fuel costs.

    Aerio: Did not seriously consider it because I didn't like it when I drove it (rattles, interior seemed cheap, not much rear seat room, short cargo area) and I don't like the looks of the 5-door.

    PT Cruiser: Did not seriously consider it because of low fuel economy, and the uniqueness has worn off for me.

    I think I could have been satisfied with either the Prius, Mazda6i, Matrix, Elantra GT, or Malibu Maxx. Ultimately my decision came down to, what is the car that meets my needs with the lowest TCO? That car was the Elantra GT, by a large margin. Had cost not been a factor, it would have been a tough decision between the Prius and the Mazda6i. But if cost were not a factor, I probably would have been looking at BMW and Audi wagons...
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    In Message 87 gagrice said (of Toyota)

    "When are you going to wake up and realize they are only building and pretending to build additional hybrids to cover up there overall horrible fuel economy and emissions record. GM still has a better mileage and emissions record than Toyota or Ford over the whole fleet."

    The EPA just released their Fleet Fuel Econonmy numbers for the year.

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fetrends.htm

    Summarized Here:

    http://www.lacar.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&s- id=302

    "2004 Fords earned the lowest average fleet fuel economy of any major car maker selling vehicles in the United States. In fact, the report reveals that Ford has earned the lowest average for every year since 1999. One might be able to overlook this figures, given the large number of trucks and SUVs that the company produces.

    The same report, however, reveals that another large producer of trucks and SUVs achieved the best average car fuel economy, the best average truck fuel economy, and the second best combined car and truck fuel economy average. That company is Toyota, and their combined car and truck figures are second only to Honda (27.6 versus 27.7 miles per gallon). Considering the vast number of trucks and SUVs that Toyota produces (versus Honda), this is quite an achievement."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have not read all the EPA report yet. LACAR failed to mention GM. The article is slanted toward the writer's opinion. He does not match vehicle to vehicle in the synopsis. The Toyota Tundra and Landcruiser are horrible cas hogs compared even to the Ford PU trucks of equal size. And Toyota is a blip on the sales charts for both PU trucks and SUV type vehicles.

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Ok, Here's GM in the Corporate overall mix.

    Toyota - 23.0 MPG
    GM - 20.6 MPG
    Ford - 18.8 MPG

    But, now I'm confused again. First you said that Toyota was only producing hybrids because they had to raise their terrible Fuel Economy Averages. You particularly mentioned Trucks.

    Now, when it turns out that Toyota not only has the highest Corporate Automobile Fuel Economy Average, but the Highest Coporate Truck Fuel Economy Average (obviously with out any hybrid assist), you seem to be running off with the goalposts again saying that one or two vehicles Toyota makes have bad fuel economy compared to some other seletcted vehicle from another manufacturer.

    What exactly is your point?

    Toyota happens to be the most fuel efficient manufacturer of both Trucks and Cars, even with the examples you picked out in the mix.

    Does this mean it's all due to Hybrids? Are you still saying Toyota's motivation for hybrids is only to make up for an otherwise bad Fuel Economy record?

    It seems to me that hybrids can only widen an already substantial lead.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Cute. But I'm holding out for a 747...

    Actually, I drive a CR-V, and subscribe to the "smaller, nimbler" theories. I was just agreeing with others as to safety in larger vehicles.

    For myself, I will take my chances and keep my eyes open, my foot ready to react, and my senses alert. It has served me thus far...
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Think of the millions of drivers in Europe and Asia who regularly risk the lives of their children by transporting them in small, unsafe cars that cannot withstand a broadside collison by a large truck."

    I recognize the humor, but this brings up a valid point. As many enviros point out, if we didn't have all these larger vehicles, everyone would be safer. Of course there are still heavy cars in Europe, but not nearly as many, and most of those are delivery trucks & etc.

    Obviously, people don't need such large vehicles. But they want them. Until that changes, those of us with smaller cars will have to take our chances.

    "The fact we'd have to find some way of doubling oil production around the world in order to allow everyone to drive these large vehicles is a small price to pay for ensuring the safety of our children."

    I'd vote for recycling all that McDonalds fry grease in a good bio-diesel that gets excellent economy. Maybe it is coming...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > we'd have to find some way of doubling oil production around the world in order to allow everyone to drive these large vehicles

    That wouldn't do any good. All the oil you want is not going to change the fact that refineries are already at maximum capacity. They couldn't produce more diesel & gas even if they wanted too.

    And even if that problem was solved, someone would just build an even bigger vehicle and the cycle would start all over again.

    JOHN
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...is the European one. Tax motor fuel to a level that changes behavior.

    Eventually, that will happen here, but probably not in my lifetime, and at 60, I'm hoping for another 25 years or so.

    Americans will simply have to join the rest of the world one of these days...we are the only place on the planet that thinks that a "family car" is a 5000 lb truck. Jeez.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Of course it is impossible--that was the point.

    I was hoping to get the discussion back around to discussing real alternatives to the Prius with #116, but given the name of the discussion I guess we could talk about fusion-powered flying cars and still be on topic.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    I still maintain that the best alternative is one that didn't make your list - the Passat TDI. I drove one last week, and came away mighty impressed. Performance is comparable to the Prius, and room inside is of course not an issue. Early adapters are reporting real-world fuel consumption in the mid-high 30s - lots of folks are seeing the EPA highway figure - 38 mpg - in normal commuting and suburban use.

    Availability right now is tight, pending the arrival of the '05s, which are starting to trickle into the ports now...but there are still plenty to be had out there, and nobody is standing in line like they are for the Prius.

    Of course, cost is nearly twice what you paid for the Elantra GT.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Of course, cost is nearly twice what you paid for the Elantra GT.

    Exactly. If I were to spend that much money, I would have gotten a Package 9 Prius. Plus predicted reliability of the Elantra is much better than for the Passat. I am also concerned (maybe needlessly so) about what happens to diesel fuel at -25 F.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    When in comes to emissions, the difference between Prius & Passat TDI is as extreme as you can get.

    Prius is at the very top, and Passat TDI is quite literally at the very bottom.

    See... http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/midcar-04.htm

    JOHN
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    ok - refresher that the discussion is Toyota Prius v. ???? (the ???? is another vehicle, not the cost of chickens, gas, eggs in Europe)

    Thanks!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Cost of chickens???
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    With respect, all discussions about this car inevitably revolve around its fuel consumption [and emissions], and that opens up a lot of issues. I appreciate your desire to keep it "on point", but this is a unique car and really begs a lot of questions outside the usual envelope - I think the central issue is the relative value of the total package vs the alternatives. And part of the relative value has to do with the price of motor fuel - the more expensive it gets, the more sense the Prius and other low consumption alternatives make, and vice versa.

    John - I'm just as aware as you are of the emissions from the Prius vs the diesel alternatives. The latter will only get better, as low-sulfur fuel becomes widely available, and VW, MB, et al can actually use the technology that is already common in Europe. Since very few people can actually lay their hands on a low-emissions Prius, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Passat TDI is an alternative if you want something with real room inside and 35 mpg, AND can't or don't want to wait 6 months to buy a car.

    Am I being unreasonable on either of these points?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Actually, a TDI can be hard to find sometimes too (like now, the end of a model year). The EPA limits how many can be sold due to the high-level of smog-forming emissions.

    But since there is no time-scale on this topic, we can discussion the choices in the future... I read a paper just yesterday on how new diesel filters will be able to remove enough of the NOx and PM emissions to make diesel a practical choice. The catch is sulfur damages the filters. So all bets are on-hold until 2007. And even then, the additional costs of the filters along with the accompanying minor MPG decrease will make competing with HSD more of a challenge. Remember, the increase in production (and competition for supplying battery-modules) will help to bring prices down too.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But, now I'm confused again. First you said that Toyota was only producing hybrids because they had to raise their terrible Fuel Economy Averages. You particularly mentioned Trucks.

    Yes you are confused. First off Toyota has sold 130k PU trucks so far this year compared to GM selling 545k and Ford selling 525k PU trucks. I realize the small Tacoma is going to get better mileage (not by much) than a Chevy Silverado. If they were able to sell as many of the Tundra gas hogs they would be in the toilet. So you are comparing the sales of Toyota's small truck against the much more popular large trucks built by Ford and GM. It is a lobsided report. Of the main stream automakers Toyota still has the WORST polluters on the market, they need the Prius to balance the scales. You can distort the truth all you want and it will not change the facts. Look at the EPA reports on the Toyota Tundra, Landcruiser & LX470 they are on the top of the worst polluters list. They won't quit selling them as they are their biggest money makers.

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svtruck.asp
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually, a TDI can be hard to find sometimes

    For those of you looking for great fuel mileage and don't want to wait until your grandchildren are getting ready to retire, a wonderful VW TDI vehicle is an obvious choice. I just checked their website and Findlay VW in Las Vegas has over 50 TDI vehicles in stock. Catch a plane take a vacation and buy a great car at the same time.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    "Yes you are confused."

    Still confused.

    Nothing in your rant against selected Toyota Vehicles addresses the question.

    So, Toyota produces some of the best and worst polluters on the market. So does every other manufacturer.

    The question is: Are you still saying that the reason Toyota is producing hybrids is to raise their CAFE ratings?

    If so, what is the rationale for this when they already have the best CAFE ratings in the industry for both Trucks and Cars, and would even without the Prius?

    The Prius only makes the best better, it isn't needed to overcome Detroits abysmal CAFE performance, and picking on a couple of Toyota Vehicles won't change the big picture, so what logic are you using to determine that Toyotas motive for hybrids is CAFE? Seems like an expensive stick to use for beating a dead horse.

    Occams razor would indicate many more likely reasons for Hybrids than CAFE, so unless you can explain why you've settled on this rationale, or provide some supporting evidence for your unlikely theory, I'm forced to conclude it's just more smokey FUD emanating from your (self professed) hatred for Toyota.

    Because frankly, what your saying doesn't make much sense.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Yes you are confused.

    That totally clarified it for me... Rather than objectively looking at the merits of HSD, an "attack the integrity of the company" approach is being used.

    That still doesn't change the fact that HSD is a real-world solution to reducing emissions & consumption.

    Just ignore the conspiracy theories.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, a "wonderful" VW TDi vehicle is a good choice as long as you are willing to make significant compromises on reliability and emissions, and in many cases fuel economy, compared to a Prius. Also good luck finding a VW TDi with features like voice navigation, Bluetooth, and Smart Entry & Start. You will also pay more for a VW TDi with comparable interior room to a Prius (i.e., the Passat) than you will pay for a Prius. All in all, not a great deal in my book.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe your logic is flawed for the following reason. If across the spectrum of vehicles there is an average of 20 mpg with the worst being 15 mpg and the best being 25 mpg with the associated emissions, is that better than an average of 20 mpg with the low being 19 mpg and the high being 21 mpg? I believe it is worse to sell vehicles with the extreme low and extreme high. This is what it looks like Toyota is doing. Covering the Landcruiser's extreme low with the Prius extreme high mileage. I have nothing against the high mileage low emission vehicles that Toyota sells. It is their hypocrisy that is my complaint. And those that buy into it. I'm not making any excuses for Ford and GM. I hope you will agree that as much bad press as the Hummer2 gets it is not as bad as the Landcruiser/LX470.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My premise for buying the VW TDI over the Prius is based more on availability than total features. I am not interested in NAV & Bluetooth as much as I am good handling and braking. Prius is not as good as the VW cars in either of those areas. It is a great car for mileage and emissions. It is also all but not available. Or available if your willing to get screwed on the price.
  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    Also good luck finding a VW TDi with features like voice navigation, Bluetooth, and Smart Entry & Start.
    ---------------------------------------------

    So what? I wouldn't want ANY car with those features.

    Turboshadow
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I am not interested in NAV & Bluetooth as much as I am good handling and braking. Prius is not as good as the VW cars in either of those areas.

    Per Motor Trend tests:

    Prius: 60-0, 125 feet
    Jetta TDi: 60-0, 130 feet
    Jetta Wagon: 60-0, 125 feet
    New Beetle Turbo S: 60-0, 130 feet
    Passat W8: 60-0, 142 feet
    Tourag V6: 60-0, 132 feet
    Tourag V8: 60-0, 126 feet

    It looks to me like the Prius compares very well to VW cars in braking. Also it accelerates better than do the TDi models, e.g.

    Prius: 0-60, 9.8 secs.
    Jetta TDi: 0-60, 13.8 secs.

    As for availability, being widely available doesn't help if the car is in the shop.
  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    As for availability, being widely available doesn't help if the car is in the shop.
    _______________________________________

    LOL...oh so true.

    Turboshadow
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Sept. Car and Driver compares Prius, HCH, Echo and Jetta TDI.

    It's viewable on their online edition too, but seems to be missing some of the box charts. I'm not sure about Edmunds link policies but you should be able to find it.

    This is what they found:

    Toyota Prius = 52 "City" / 50 "Highway"
    Civic Hybrid = 40 "City" / 43 "Highway"
    Toyota Echo = 42 "City" / 41 "Highway"
    VW Jetta TDI = 33 "City" / 42 "Highway"

    "Never mind what some people say: EPA city and highway numbers come from tests executed to perfection. If you drive the test conditions, you'll get the test mileage. But tests, even our tests, are idealized in certain ways. We drove real cars on real roads in real traffic. So the results are real."

    "For highway mileage we drove freeways across Michigan from Ann Arbor to Holland and back, 337 miles between fills. Traffic hustles along these days. We drove 75 to 80 mph where possible, at the upper range of flow."

    "For city we rolled up 107 miles around metro Ann Arbor on a perfect summer's day, delaying the start until after morning rush hour to ease our need for Rolaids. Speeds were sensible but, again, in the upper range of unimpeded traffic flow where space allowed."

    Interesting note on the HCH:

    "We ran this test twice with consistent results, except for the Civic's. The Honda ran the first loop in the automatic temperature mode, the second in auto with the "econ" button pushed. Econ allows the engine to shut down at traffic lights. The results were profoundly different — 40 mpg with the engine running all the time, 53 mpg when the engine could shut down in times of its own choosing. This is a bigger difference than we expected."

    Final Score:

    HCH 91
    Prius 90
    Jetta TDI 78
    Echo 3 (Yes, 3)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Any particular reason you excluded the data people most commonly ask about: "Suburb driving"?

    And yes, that is the type of driving Prius shines the brightest with.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Per Motor Trend tests:

    Prius: 60-0, 125 feet
    Jetta TDi: 60-0, 130 feet
    Jetta Wagon: 60-0, 125 feet
    New Beetle Turbo S: 60-0, 130 feet
    Passat W8: 60-0, 142 feet
    Tourag V6: 60-0, 132 feet
    Tourag V8: 60-0, 126 feet

    I'm not sure about Motor Trend and their tests. EPA says the Prius brakes 60-0 in 135.1 feet. 70-0 tests I have seen show Prius 172 feet and the Jetta braking 70-0 in 152 feet. The VW is better in my book. I won't argue the VW reliability. I see a fair amount of Prius quitting on the highway for no reason on this forum. Time will tell if Toyota can make the Prius and HSD reliable. Until then, it is an experimental car.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tech/TechSnapPrius1_5_01b.pdf
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If so, what is the rationale for this when they already have the best CAFE ratings in the industry for both Trucks and Cars, and would even without the Prius?

    Toyota sells lots of Camry's. That helps their otherwise dismal mpg/emissions record. The reason Ford and GM sells 10 Pu trucks to every Toyota PU truck is they are that much better.... The people that buy those Ford and GM trucks are not worried about 1 or 2 mpg. They are interested in the overall quality of the truck and the reliability. Naturally they have a lower overall mileage rating they are much larger and have more capacity. If you check the EPA you can buy a full size Chevy Silverado that gets the same 17/20 as a tiny Tacoma PU truck. There is no comparison and the market bears this out. So you are comparing apples to lemons in the case of Toyota trucks. Ask the guy that has gotten stuck with two of them.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    "Any particular reason you excluded the data people most commonly ask about: "Suburb driving"?"

    Because I don't have the magazine yet, only the online version, and the numbers someone else posted elswhere, which did not include the "Suburban" figures.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Braking distance is a very weak argument. There is very little to discuss.

    Simply switching to high-traction tires is all you need to do to shorten the distance. At full price, that's around $400. With trade-in of the new tires, it's around $300.

    JOHN
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Actually, the "scores" referred to in the above post were in a separate sidebar in the magazine article that was specifically focused on the "fun-to-drive" factor - no surprise that the poor Echo scored a measly 3 points.

    They made no attempt in the body of the main article to "rank" the cars - they simply spoke to the numbers [mpg] that were generated in each of their three test phases.

    I thought the article was pretty balanced and, for a change with C&D, not laced with the behind-the-hand snide remarks about "greenies" and "weenies" that so dominate their editorial columnist's monthly contributions. They seem to finally recognize that there is a community of actual [gasp!] car enthusiasts whose enthusiasms embrace the idea of low fuel consumption as a legitimate measure of automotive performance. For the magazine that never saw a pair of black streaks on the pavement it didn't like, this is progress.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I can see why you are not sure about Motor Trend's test results--because they don't agree with your bias towards VW. As for time telling whether Toyota can make the Prius reliable, time has already told that story. For example, CR has rated the Prius one of the most reliable cars on the market, based on information provided by owners.

    What is a "fair amount" of Prius quitting on the highway for no reason? Two? Three? I don't recall seeing reports of lots of Prius quitting on the highway for no reason. And it doesn't make sense that any car would quit on the highway for no reason--there has to be a reason a car quits. No one said the Prius is defect-free. No car model is defect-free.

    BTW, the link you provided, and the stopping distance data, is on the PREVIOUS-GENERATION Prius. Does your VW bias prevent you from considering current data, such as the Motor Trend numbers I provided?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Skinny tires proved to be the Prius' Achilles' heel in braking and cornering tests. The Jetta stopped 20 feet shorter from 70 mph (172 versus 192 feet) and was able to corner better

    I like to think my bias against Toyota is a balance for others bias toward Toyota. Here is another comparison showing the inferior braking on the 2004 Prius. I know some here don't think 20 feet is much when you are braking from 70 mph. It could be the difference between life and death.

    http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/bus- iness/1087734648278220.xml
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    You ignored the tire comment. Why?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I didn't ignore your tire comment. You gave no statistical data to prove that if you buy new tires for the Prius it will stop faster. I am assuming it will stop & handle better. I am saying someone that buys a new Prius will not know unless they happen to wander onto this or your website. It is not right that Toyota does not give you the option to have good handling or high mileage tires off the showroom floor. I should not have to go buy new tires for a new vehicle to get good braking & handling. It is not like Toyota is unaware of this issue. Every article written on the 2004 Prius makes mention of the poor handling, especially in a cross wind.
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