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Again, Hardly. All I am doing to comparing them side by side. It is really time you got over the shock.
As for the statistical chances, if what you say is true, then the REVERSE of what you assert is true: the VW TDI has more of a chance to be statistically average to mediocre or worse. I also have a statistically better chance of getting an exceptional Honda. Neither in my case happens to be true. My take is I have an AVERAGE Civic & Jetta TDI.
However there really is no Honda TDI to compare it with, but my VW TDI will NOT have Honda gasser type problems.
The other thing I do not see diesel as future alternative energy or the solution to our energy crisis, the future will belong to hybrid, half Electric for city driving and half combustion engine for highway driving and back road fun. That’s why I will not put any money in any vehicle now, until I see what kind of hybrid vehicles will take the lead.
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People who are not excited by a trip to the dealer will find this so called"Big Deal" a significant issue and will avoid buying a car that takes them there. Take a look at the CR owner satisfaction ratings to get a good feel of how that, and other factors makes Honda the preferred choice over VW by a wide margin by people who own and drive them. My anecdotal experience with a Ford Pinto, like yours with your cars, does not translate to overall real world experience - my Pinto was the most reliable car I ever owned out of more than 40 - I drove it to over 100K miles and sold it for more than I had paid for it used. In the real world the Pinto was a pretty unreliable car.
1. Toyota 9,366,000
2. GM 8,902,252
3. Volkswagen 6,191,618,
4. Ford 5,964,000
5. Hyundai-Kia 3,961,629
6. Honda 3,831,000
7. Nissan 3,675,574
8. PSA/Peugeot 3,428,400
9. Chrysler 2,676,268
10. Fiat 2,620,864
Not that it means anything as far as quality but VW outsold Honda by a vast number of vehicles worldwide.
VW will be gunning for GM next. They got a ways to go.
For example, the one where axe-grinding Hondaphile talk is avoided, for example?
Maybe a Jetta vs Civic specific forum? Or a VW TDI haters forum?
I don't know.
There must be an actual TDI/diesel forum on edmunds somewhere - I'll look around...
You're not for real, are you? Honda may build some racing engines. The Accord is not hardly a racing platform to compare with the Jetta. The Jetta TDI has its own racing series. What has Honda got in racing here in the USA? I see several environmental groups praising the VW Jetta TDI racing series. It is carbon free. Does Honda sell any car that is carbon FREE?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/31/vw-jetta-tdi-cup-racing-series-coming-to- - -a-track-near-you-in-200/
2008 Jetta TDI Cup
But in the meantime, an interesting development is the Jetta TDI Cup, a carbon neutral (certified by Carbonfund.org) event sponsored by Volkswagen. The vehicles are getting about 25 miles per gallon in racing conditions, which is about 500% better than many race cars, and better than many regular vehicles that are never used in demanding conditions.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/2008-jetta-tdi-cup-motor-racing.php
PS
The last Honda that would be fun to road race was the CRX. Nothing since except the S2000.
Thanks!
link title
Although the 1.9 liter Pumpe-Deuse (sp.?) engines of the earlier TDI's were built in Poland, I believe the CRD engine in the '09 TDI is Made in Germany, as is the DSG transmission. The automatic transmission on gasser Jettas is Japanese built.
I don't recall where the manual transmissions are built for TDIs or gassers. :confuse:
Hey... if you have someone that can pick you up at the dealership, you've got that 4-yr warranty... Why not take the chance? Life is too short to drive boring cars (that's what we say when we get old..lol).
I'm not too sure about the quality being better.. They sure seem well put together at first inspection, though..
regards,
kyfdx
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There may be a Honda support group somewhere that can help you with that problem.
The thing that is not rewarded nor acknowledged is the fact the diesel ACTUALLY uses 29% LESS fuel than the gasser. (49-38=11/38).
Again compared against a like model diesel, it is along the lines of (49-29==20/29=) 69% This "hidden in plain sight" fact operatively tells me CUTTING fuel use is a SHAM. Getting the price UP (per mile driven) and controlling behavior is really what is going on.
First the Jetta diesel is rated 41 MPG in the highway, what you can get doing hyper-milling is not reality, because the same is true for other vihicles.
Price of diesel is $4.69 using your numbers,
Price of RUG is $3.84 using your numbers,
Price per mile diving for diesel = $4.69/41 = $0.114
Price per mile diving for RUG = $3.84/29 = $0.132
Considering you drive on average 12000 miles / year your cost for each vehicle is:
Total cost of fuel for the diesel car = $0.114 * 12,000 = $1368
Total cost of fuel for the RUG car = $0.132 * 12,000 = $1584
The difference in saving between the two cars is only ($216), it will take 10 years to break even for the premium price paid up front for the diesel ($2160) and this is considering that you get the ($1300) tax credit. The math is clear, it shows that this country is not ready for diesel, unless VW price the diesel and the Gasoline cars at the same prices, or the government start taxing diesel at the same rate as gasoline.
Indeed I listed the "OTHER" vehicle (Civic) !!?? If you wish to say we only do "hyper-miling" in the VW and NOT the Civic, you would be WRONG. We do not do hypermiling at all during the daily commute of which we get VW TDI 48-52 mpg/ Civic 38-42 mpg. Again you would be WRONG. The comparisons were listed.
But you lost this argument in prior posts. I understand your bias. I take umbrage when you masquerade it as FACT and accuse me of bias.
I don't think you are seeing the big picture. There are a lot of people that are interested in using less fuel. They may not want a hybrid and that leaves only one other choice. That choice will not run on gasoline. I for one will NEVER buy another new gas car. I HATE the gas sold in CA. It gives below EPA mileage with all the ethanol and other crap they put into it. It is designed to reap more road tax. That is why they call it Designer Gas.
If you are so concerned about not breaking even with a diesel car because of the higher price of diesel. Get a Yaris for $12k. My son in law gets 40 MPG with his on a regular basis. In fact you can buy two for the price of a Jetta TDI or Prius. His and Her's Yaris. Or if you really want to save money find an old Geo Metro and get 50 MPG.
While this is apples to oranges, I have had to change drive belts (A/C, starter alternator) at 90-91k on all 4/5 Toyota Landcruisers. (the 5th one I sold @ 55,000 miles) ALL were @ some stage of FRAYED. So I will be able to say @ 500,000 miles to see if any of the next 4 belts got frayed on the TDI.
This was not so for the serpentine and timing belt for the VW TDI.
The Corolla I was quoted is just over $17,800, which is quite a bit less expensive than the Jetta, and the Corolla gets 26 mpg city and 40 mpg highway.
I know that Diesel is about 75 cents more per gallon than regular unleaded, so I'm not sure if the 5 thousand dollar savings on the Corolla will offset the higher cost of diesel and higher purchase price of the Jetta.
I plan on keeping the car for at least 6 years.
Thank you,
Karen
You are the one doing the misleading based on flat wrong information!
..."You’re the one who lost this argument before, because the fuel saving versus the cost calculation shows that you’re wrong."...
The cost calculations were done in prior posts right in front of you. You didn''t even bother to run your numbers.
..."You believe in Diesel go buy it."...
It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of lack of availability. Yes I did buy one! One reason why it is relatively unavailable isbecause the regulators know it is more cost effective per mile driven; when they want to increase the cost per mile driven.
..."VW is going the wrong direction, this US market is going to be ruled by two companies Toyota Hybrid, and Honda Hybrid or plug-ins."...
For my .02 cents NO! NO! and especially NO under the current tax structure.
Welcome to the Forum. If I were you I would go with the Corolla. It is a good car and gets decent mileage. If you look at pay back as a major criteria you will not be able to justify the Jetta TDI. If you really like to get out and drive cross country there are some benefits to the Jetta that you will not get with the Corolla. There will more than likely be a limited supply of the Jetta TDI for the next year or maybe longer. That will impact the price you will be paying. Right now the Corolla is priced right and cars like the Prius and Jetta TDI are Over priced.
If you could look back at the posts from 1998 you would find my original search was for a small diesel PU truck. I had talked to a couple of fellows from Brazil that had driven a Ranger diesel PU from the tip of So America to the Arctic Ocean where I was working. They had averaged 45 MPG and I wanted just such a PU truck. However the USA being the backward country we are instead of charging more tax for fuel and trying to use less, we go along with the oil companies and use more which in the end provides plenty of road tax. You may not know that we have the best Congress that the lobbyist money can buy. You are right in the fact that I may buy a MB or BMW diesel SUV and sell my Sequoia. That does not mean I am not interested in the diesels that VW have to offer. I check each day for a nice used VW Beetle TDI or Golf TDI as a runabout. So you see I have probably been interested in saving fuel for longer than you have. I started in 1969 buying a VW Beetle to save on gas. Probably the worst car I ever owned was a 1978 Honda Accord. That said:
If you think so highly of the Toyota and Honda Hybrids why are you in the VW diesel forum? You should be over there telling people how there is no way you can pay $35k for a Prius and ever get your money back. They will love you over there.
PS
Don't go and test drive the VW Jetta TDI, you will just be frustrated driving a Honda or Toyota.
This is all I was interested in. They were able to drive in the USA. Just not be sold in the USA. 45 MPG vs 15 MPG in a Ranger V6 gasser. You do the math.
Diesel gives you better fuel mileage, but it cost more to make a gallon of diesel out of crude oil, than it does to make a gallon of gasoline. Remember the amount of BTU in Diesel is more than the amount of BTU in gasoline, and that is for reason; it takes more crude oil to make 1 gallon of diesel. Another factor, is the gasoline technology is closing the gap in MPG that diesel achieve vs the MPG gasoline does. The new direct injection engine increased the fuel economy for some cars by 10%, heated fuel line, high pressure injection system (robust injectors and fuel pumps) will increase the MPG by another 20%. Haven’t you see that GM is coming up with a replacement for the Chevy COBALT, called (CRUZE) that can achieve 40 MPG; it is due in (2010). I guess the love connection that use to exist between oil companies and US auto makers are thing of the past, now every one of these companies is trying to survive. You think the gas price went down just like that; there are different factors that pushes the price back where it suppose to be.
You are saying precisely (not the same words however) what we have been saying all along!
..."Diesel gives you better fuel mileage, but it cost more to make a gallon of diesel out of crude oil, than it does to make a gallon of gasoline. "...
The first part of your sentence is TRUE enough. However the rest of your sentence is FALSE based on a misunderstanding of the distillation process. Upshot: technologically from a barrel of oil; 100% of either product can not be distilled. Gagrice alluded to it when he has said several times if we have gasoline we have diesel and vice versa. If you want a more technological explanation Chevron.com might be a great place with informational overload, to start.
Lo and behold, what the automakers give you the government takes away. They are adding 10% ethanol that on average reduces our gas mileage by 10%. That is a MAJOR reason that I do not like gas vehicles. Straight regular unleaded is a decent fuel. When the government mandated MTBE it polluted our ground water. Now they are adding ethanol that will cause who knows what yet. Your argument that they are adding ethanol to diesel has no basis in fact. I do not know of anywhere in the USA they are adding ethanol to the diesel. So the big mileage advantage for diesel still exists. I am not saying our government will not figure a way to reduce our mileage. They are good at that. I really do not care about a Cobalt or a Cruze. I could buy an old Honda CRX HF and get 50 MPG today. Plus they were one of the few cars Honda ever made that were fun to drive. I want comfort, good handling, and good economy. With the ability to go off the highway into the desert without dragging on the rocks. Do you get the picture? The only vehicles that fit that are SUVs with diesel engines. I could consider an SUV as small as the VW Tiquan if it comes with a diesel engine and gets close to 40 MPG on the highway. I would be real excited about the Sportwagon TDI if it had about 3 more inches of ground clearance.
I would give Toyota or Honda a look if and when they bring a diesel SUV to the US market. Nothing they have right now interests me in the least.
I did the math in terms of fuel cost per mile driven, and it is MORE than clear the per mile driven cost is cheaper for diesel. No real magic why they price diesel far more than RUG. PUG of course is closer in price to D2. Of course, those in total denial, might not agree.
Indeed when you peel back the layers, it is easy to see one of the reasons why Europe can charge outrageous per gal prices for RUG to PUG and D2 is because upwards of 50% of the vehicle fleet is D2 !!??? The unused/unsold RUG to PUG being sold to a 98% USA RUG to PUG consumer !!! Truly it is the "OTHER" side of the distillation percentage deal !!! Indeed I have shown on a few posts, that "per mile driven", we pay pretty much the same as Europe !!!!! So it is pretty easy to make $4. cost the same as $9 dollar gas. (per mile driven) It is the same 5th grade math!!! RATIOS!!!
You know something? Many of us here have crunched the numbers on the hybrids vs gas vs diesel. The bottom line is if you just need an economical car and do not care about amenities, handling, braking, comfort, safety, you are better off with a Fit or a Yaris. There is NO WAY any of the hybrids or diesels can compete dollar for dollar. So crunch to your hearts content. There are those that like what the hybrids offer and those that like what diesel has to offer. And we are not worried about the premium. Some things cannot be crunched.
PS
I still have the $27k in the bank from selling my 2005 Passat TDI. I made a $3k profit after driving the car for 13 months. Try that with any Honda.
Why are all the diesel threads allowed to get bogged down with total crap that has nothing to do with the topic at hand?
"Diesels in the News" rarely ever mentions any of the new products in the pipeline. It's a constant battle of hybrid vs. diesel, and environuts vs. the anti Carb folks.
Now this thread, which has the first significant mass market diesel car in years, has become the same.
The continued refusal of the hosts to moderate these comments continues Edmunds lack coverage to upcoming diesels.
(...stepping off soapbox)