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VW Jetta TDI

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I think North American's would buy anything that got 60 mpg at 70 mph even if it burnt bat [non-permissible content removed]. "...

    Now I would (personally) NOT disagree with you. ....

    BUT... the majority DOES disagree with you !! 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet is diesel= 5.108 M. 75% are " light" diesel trucks - 3.831 M = 1.277 M diesel CARS !!

    75 mph with bursts to 80-85 mph and over two tank fulls, yielded 59 mpg !!!... Who CARES !!!???
  • longo2longo2 Member Posts: 347
    OK ruking1,

    I think you must have the all time mpg/mph best numbers on this forum.

    Not to dump sludge on your 03 Jetta Speedster, but consider what Honda's been busy at out on the race track.

    "U.K., – Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team."

    VW has this Diesel Family Sedan market all to themselves (for now) and I think if they start trying to fix what ain't broke, they will lose all they have gained since the mid 2000's with TDI,s...i.e. (rumor alert) requiring the 2010 Jettas to fill up on Urea every 7000 miles ($200)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Not to dump sludge on your 03 Jetta Speedster"..

    No worries here ! It has been tdi GURU inspected (during the 100,000 miles TB/WP change interval) !

    1. No intake manifold or EGR "sludge," despite using LSD (500 to 140 ppm) most of its mileage at that point (75% of 100,000 miles) . Thanks to the EPA and CA carbs etc. This 03 TDI was designed to run on ULSD (15 ppm to 5 ppm).

    2. Clean as a whistle camshaft (original tool markings) and innards with 25,000 miles oil and oil filter changes !! :blush: I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy, as I do not do 30,000 mile OCI's. :blush:

    My take has advocated MORE oems' putting more and varied diesels models on the US market ! I only cycle back to VW, because this is a VW diesel thread.

    I actually would like to put the Honda Accord 2.2 i CTDi through its paces. to see so called "real world" mpg.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Honda Accord had me excited about Honda once again after writing them off 30 years ago as [non-permissible content removed] Junk. The whole bit about the auto transmission version failing the emissions test smells to me. The powers know that a Honda diesel Accord getting close to 50 MPG would be a killer. Money talks even to Honda executives. The people that control CARB and the EPA DO NOT WANT A LOT OF DIESEL CHOICES. The VW TDI is just tossing a little steak at the faithful few diesel lovers. Myself being one of them.
  • longo2longo2 Member Posts: 347
    I read in one piece about the Honda Diesel speed tests, that the drivers of the vehicles got the 92 mpg figure when they drove them back to the city...

    If that was the case, I wonder just how modified they were by the factory for the Speed Tests, and how much of that 92 mpg number is from the 'Outer Limits'.

    In any case it's a shame that some sort of Diesel Conspiracy does seem to exist in the U.S.
    Everywhere you look people are knocking them using stale data from the 8o's and just downright stupid remarks.
    They are even usuing the oldest BS in the book to try and keep a lid on the subject, implying that diesel cars are somehow, "Un-American" in the 'comments' on published Jetta TDI tests in magazines and internet articles.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    I just got rid of the cargo box (Thule) on my Tdi Wagon. It takes 4 people (depending on size) to put it on and off. If you move it forward enough, it clears rear hatch. It's never too forward. I would go with Thule rather than Yakima (but that is my preference - I always had the largest Thule box on my cars). You have to remove the antenna though... But the wagon does not look right with the huge Thule box on top!
    Then I have tried Mont Blanc cargo tray/platform and got rid of that one as well (too noisy when driving with open moon roof and too small to load anything on it.
    I think I am going to try now Westin aluminum cargo tray - the large size.
    If that does not work, I have a trailer hitch now installed and I will try some of the platforms in the rear. It's an on going project now. Haven't found the solution yet.
  • longo2longo2 Member Posts: 347
    OK, I found the item and here it is. Now as I re-read it, it is even more depressing than before. Seems that everything about the Honda diesel speed records was on the up and up......................

    "Amongst the speed records set, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 – 2500 cc), were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period. These records were all set at Papenburg high-speed oval test track in north-west Germany on 1 and 2 May, and are all subject to FIA ratification.

    Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.

    Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a staggering 92 imperial mpg (US mpg=~76.6) average.

    The project, whose aim was to demonstrate the performance and economy of the Accord i-CTDi, was a joint production between Honda, the FIA and Italian-based JAS Motorsport, who managed fuelling and pit-stops.

    Honda UK’s driver in the speed record attempt, Robin Liddell, who has previously raced at Le Mans 24-hours, as well as the American Le Mans Series and the BRDC British GT championship, commented: "The car’s performance is very impressive, demonstrated by the records we’ve achieved. Honda has made real steps forward in styling, ergonomics and interior design with the new Accord Diesel and now has a package that can take on the best cars in its class."

    Too bad we won't get a chance to drive one.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    You may be right there but all it needs is to tax the gas the way they tax it in EU and give a break on diesel tax and the public would go for it.
    In many EU countries some people now mix diesel with cooking oil half and half to save money. EU is considering clamping down on this "tax evasion" - they may tax McDonalds and other fast foods that sell used oil through back doors and people are mixing it with diesel (my friend from UK that works for Aston Martin and drives a Subaru Forester diesel there is telling me....).
    Problem with hybrids is that technology is now already old and aging. There hasn't been any new technology introduced in the past 10 years, since hybrids were introduced. Another argument is that most cells (if not all) come from China - so instead of being dependent on Middle East oil we will be dependent on Red Chinese... seems like an average American would rather be dependent on China than Middle East, right?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    VW gets a very respectable 24 mpg on its gasser Jetta's. The like model (diesel 09 Jetta TDI, DSG) on the other hand is almost literally vilified for getting 38 mpg or 58% BETTER fuel mileage !!!!!?????

    If you use the EPA average mpg for the 09 Jetta gasser, why not use the same criteria when comparing to the 09 Jetta TDI? The EPA avg mpg for the TDI is 33mpg, not 38mpg. Where does the 38mpg come from. Is it some kind of official statistic or is it the result of several TDI affectionados. Some TDI owners get substantially better than the EPA avg and I believe there are probably some gasser Jetta owners that get better than the EPA avg as well. I'm not bashing TDIs by any means but I just like to see statements that appear as fact not be backed by a few people that either are hypermilers or close to it. I see one guy on the Camry forum that is consistenty getting 40mpg out of a reg gasser I4 Camry. That is not the norm by any means and is questionable in my opinion.

    The EPA website has the Jetta gasser getting a little better than the stated avg with 2 drivers reporting. The Jetta TDI has an average of 40mpg with 21 drivers reporting. While that sounds great and I have no reason to doubt them, it is still just 21 drivers out of thousands which may be as small a sample as 1% or less.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    I just got a new Jetta TDI sedan with DSG. Since this is my first diesel I want to break it in right. How should I drive it over the next 1000 miles to get the best results?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not an issue, then use 33/34 mpg. It is STILL 42% better !!!! ???

    I get an average of 42/43 (79%) and I am NO hyper miler. Indeed the thing will not be broken in for @ least another 3,000 miles, with 10,000 to 60,000 miles "full" break in. So there is an expectation the mpg will go up from there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    You may want to re-think break in to a MINIMUM of 10,000 miles. Full break in more like 10,000 to 60,000 miles.

    Break-In Period
  • ndmike88ndmike88 Member Posts: 155
    Anyone use it? Does it really help with the TDI performance? I know it boosts the cetane in the diesel fuel but does it really work? Is it VW approved?
  • cosmocosmo Member Posts: 203
    ruking1's link is right on. A no-brainer method is to drive in sport mode for the first 5K. Do not go on any long freeway cruises and do not concern yourself with fuel mileage during the first 5K.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    anyone use what Mike?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes. It is supposed to help with TDI performance. After 125,000 miles, I can tell no difference.
    I do use it primarily for:
    1. H20 emulsification
    2. fuel pump lubricity

    These are all chemical reasons I can NOT see.

    3. It does boost the cetane,

    4. boosts power

    5. offers high detergency

    6. better mpg

    7. cleans injectors and combustion system

    but I really have to take their word for it.

    VW's official recommendation: no additves are necessary or required.
  • tdifuntdifun Member Posts: 10
    I got my Gray DSG TDI jetta from Fitzmall for $20,992. Paided for shipping and was still thousands under what my local dealership could/would do.
  • jim1977jim1977 Member Posts: 14
    Now you have me worried. I don' want to add a rumor onto a rumor, since we don't really know if they will go the urea system route in 2010, but I also find it hard to believe that it is due to fuel economy. I am wondering if it is due to a maintenance problem with the DPF? I know that they delayed the introduction of the 2009 models (or was it 2008?) for several months until they worked out bugs in meeting the U.S. emission requirements, though nobody ever detailed what those were.

    I was on the verge (or so I thought) of buying a 2009 TDI, but don't want to be orphaned with a long-term maintenance problem. Maybe it is all a bad dream and doesn't really amount to anything.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On www.tdiclub.com there has literally been ZERO defects on the 09 DPF. There are pretty strong recommendations to use low SAPS motor oil. aka (VW specifications 504/507)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There will always be people on either side of the bell curve, but I think you are the exception on the positive side, not the rule, from what I'm reading. Still no complaints about EPA stats on the TDI. I feel confident I could also best the EPA scores.

    Personally, aside from the gear heads and aficionados, I don't think more than 10% of Americans would buy a diesel even if they guaranteed you 50 mpg @ $5 a gallon. Why? Because as fuel costs go up, gas engine efficiency, aerodynamic design and weight-saving technology goes up---historically this has always been true at least.

    so I guess I'm saying that diesel tech is not a solution, but rather an alternative out of many alternatives.

    for some however, the perfect solution --people like me, who need some cargo capacity, like in a sportwagon, and who drive 20000 miles a year.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Personally, aside from the gear heads and aficionados, I don't think more than 10% of Americans would buy a diesel even if they guaranteed you 50 mpg $5 a gallon. Why? Because as fuel costs go up, gas engine efficiency, aerodynamic design and weight-saving technology goes up---historically this has always been true at least.

    so I guess I'm saying that diesel tech is not a solution, but rather an alternative out of many alternatives.

    for some however, the perfect solution --people like me, who need some cargo capacity, like in a sportwagon, and who drive 20000 miles a year. "...

    Then I would think we are saying the same things, to you agree with my past posts or recent past posts. :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes except perhaps you don't think selling diesel cars in America is going to be the marketing challenge that I think it will be?

    also maybe you are more lenient toward VWs reputation than most people, who I think are rather wary of the company's past record in certain areas---specifically, electronic glitches and dealer service.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On the diesel marketing challenge, a firm NO !!!

    It might be IF,... say the head bureaucrat/legislator, President Obama did a President Kennedy equivalent (to the moon by June). By saying we need 25% diesel passenger vehicle fleet (63.85 M) by a date certain. My swag of the chances of this? Christ's Second Coming will be sooner. Not to reference a long closed SUV thread, but it took SUV's INXS of 30 years to go from 1/2% of the passenger vehicle fleet to 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet !!!! ??? Even at that SNAILS pace MY growth rate of .00333% per year, some folks saw that as the attack of the Hordes and the end of western civilization as we know it.

    These folks can't even pass a constitutionally mandated on time budget, but the CA legislature ran into that (on a minor level) when the overwhelming democratic legislature passed a "MANDATORY 3% of CA MY new car sales" to be plug in electric, (some years back) I have read in passing CA has 24 M registered vehicles so an obvious figure would be eventually 720,000 vehicles.

    This ill conceived effort literally died overnight.

    I actually bought VW's in SPITE of their reputations. I think it is even apparent to them, they need to work to reverse the negative reputation they have worked so hard in polishing !!??

    I think the biggest problem is unseen. It is the pursuit of the (next) the "MAGIC BULLET" assumption. Logic would dictate pursuing that led us into this intellectual problem in the first place.
  • ndmike88ndmike88 Member Posts: 155
    Diesel power service is an additive you add to the diesel fuel. I have heard nothing but good things about it. Raises the cetane number, improves performance, better MPG. It's found at Wally World, AutoZone, Advance, Tractor Supply.
    Goggle it and see what you think.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Thanks ... never heard before... I have been using RedLine many years ago, when diesel still had high sulphur in my 240D....

    85 Plus (RedLine)
    Designed for use in all diesel engines. Contains extremely powerful lubricants, detergents, seal conditioners, fuel stabilizers and rust preventatives, but without smoke suppressant
    Red Line 85 Plus contains additional cetane improvers which boost the fuel 5-9 cetane numbers and additional lubricants which reduce wear in low sulfur fuel by 75%.

    This improvement in lubricity and cetane will reduce detonation, assist starting, help reduce smoking, help prevent fuel system wear and leakage and can provide 5% additional power and efficiency.

    This diesel fuel additive complies with the federal low sulfur content requirements for use in diesel motor vehicles and nonroad engines.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nothing in a can can do that I'm afraid. Such claims are spurious IMO.
  • ndmike88ndmike88 Member Posts: 155
    RedLine is good stuff also. Several guys at work have diesels and they swear by diesel power service. I bought a jug of it today and I am going to try it. Can't hurt.
  • bradnjessbradnjess Member Posts: 3
    Kris,

    I just purchased a 2009 Jetta TDI DSG and did opt for the dealer offered 84 mo / 75k mi warranty for about $1250 with $0/$100 deductible. I checked online prior to making this deal and could not beat it online... I know that you can get 84 mo / 100k mi as well for very little more... Good luck and post your deal when you buy!

    Brad
  • bradnjessbradnjess Member Posts: 3
    Hey,

    Let us know what you think of Diesel Power Service. Is it worth the price / trouble?
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    In my opinion, extra warranty is an overkill. Generally speaking it is just plain additional profit at F&I at any dealership. I would never recommend to anyone to opt for that coverage no matter how good it may sound!
    More at this link:
    http://www.consumerautomotiveresearch.com/index.htm
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    By the way, you can always cancel the extended warranty and get a full refund (within 30 to 60 days, depending on the dealership).
  • ndmike88ndmike88 Member Posts: 155
    I got an 84/60/100 for $1,000. I don't put a lot of miles on a year. If nothing else it gives me peace of mind for the next 7 years.
  • ndmike88ndmike88 Member Posts: 155
    Just added 4 oz. this morning. I'll keep everyone posted.
  • goldgary1goldgary1 Member Posts: 10
    Another change from 09 to 2010 model is timing belt to timing "chain" on 2010 TDI 2.0 Jetta, as well as on new 2010 Golf.

    Gary
  • jim1977jim1977 Member Posts: 14
    The question of belts or chains has been the subject of some ongoing discussions here, but I haven't heard any definitive word, and it is usually said that the 2010 TDI will still have a belt. Do you have a good authority for the chain information?
  • 2newonesfor092newonesfor09 Member Posts: 3
    If you are in a state that can get insurance with GEICO, they offer for $15 every 6 months mechanical repairs with a $250.00 deductable for all car repairs for 7 years which works out to $210.00.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."There will always be people on either side of the bell curve, but I think you are the exception on the positive side, not the rule, from what I'm reading. Still no complaints about EPA stats on the TDI. I feel confident I could also best the EPA scores."..

    EPA 29/40 mpg.

    The 09 Jetta TDI, DSG has 7.5k miles and in the spirit of the break in mode, I did a run this morning to the University of California @ Davis (and pm return) 200 miles R/T . On the way up, I ran into commute stop and go situations ( various area's familar to highway 680/80 corridor commuters, bumper to bumper 20 min delay). Even did my OCD exercise and used the sequential shifting pattern for some pretty zippy acceleration and deceleration (to vary the revs, loading and put the turbo on boost) . Got some cheap diesel (around here anyway @ 2.73) on the return trip and the thing posted app 42 mpg (42.2) . Also had the A/C on with fan set at #1 and or #2 (it was a cool 94 degrees)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    In Southern California cars automatically come with dark windows - dealers do not have to "tint" them.
    Cars in Southern California come with dark glass windows from the dealer and from the manufacturer (as long as cars are equipped with A/C ). Those, that do not have A/C come with clear untinted glass.


    Not correct. All VW Jetta sold in U.S. have tinted glass, and all have the save degree of tint. No difference in the glass of Jetta's sold in Iowa or San Diego.

    AC or no AC, the glass is tinted.

    Southern CA cars do not automatically come with darker tinted windows from the manufacturer. It is not even an option to obtain different tinted glass from the manufacturer.

    If the tint is darker, it is AFTERMARKET.
  • goldgary1goldgary1 Member Posts: 10
    Re: TDI chain for 2010. I heard it from service mgr. at dealership, then I also found it stated on the net somewhere that it as to have a chain. I don't remember where. Thats all I know. Take it for what its worth.

    Gary
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    2.0 TDI CR 103-147kW
    Configuration
    inline four cylinder 1,968 cubic centimetres (120.1 cu in) Turbocharged Direct Injection (TDI), Bore x Stroke (mm): 81 x 92.5
    Head
    four valves per cylinder, DOHC, compression ratio: 18:1 (103kW), 16.5:1 (125kW)
    Fuel system
    Common Rail (CR) multi-point direct injection (DI) with 8 nozzle output, piezo elements, pressure up to 1850 bar
    Aspiration
    turbocharger, intercooler, water cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)
    Aspiration (200hp)
    twin registered turbochargers with different diameters
    Engine management
    Bosch EDC 17
    Exhaust
    diesel particulate filter (DPF)
    Output
    103 kilowatts (140 PS; 138 bhp) @ 3,750-4,150 rpm, 320 newton metres (236 ft·lbf) @ 1,750-2,800rpm
    105 kilowatts (143 PS; 141 bhp) @ 4,200 rpm, 320 newton metres (236 ft·lbf) @ 1,750-2,500rpm
    125 kilowatts (170 PS; 168 bhp) @ 4,200 rpm, 350 newton metres (258 ft·lbf) @ 1,750-2,500rpm
    147 kilowatts (200 PS; 197 bhp) @ 4,400 rpm, 400 newton metres (295 ft·lbf) @ 2,500-3,000rpm
    Applications
    VW Tiguan, Audi A4 B8, SEAT Exeo, Skoda Superb Mk2 (125 kW), VW Jetta TDI Clean Diesel (140 hp), SEAT Leon Mk2, SEAT Altea, SEAT Toledo Mk3, Škoda Octavia 1Z (125 kW), VW Passat CC

    Interesting line up of VW diesel engines link title

    Believe it or not, here in lies the secret ..."@ 1,750-2,500rpm "...

    Max torque comes on at 1,750 and maxs out @ 2,500 rpms. Sure you can rev it out to redline @ 5,100 rpms. Much over 3,500 rpms and you really are just in the italian tune mode (no real effect) Keep it closer to, or slightly above 2,500 and the turbo is on boost. This thing in the correct gear will run all day/night @ xxx digit speeds and be happy as a clam. 09 oil consumption is still unknown (for me). The 03 TDI however consumes .25 to .5 qt in app 20,000 to 25,000 miles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's why I keep telling people not to rev their diesels up too high. That's not where the real power is.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed. For some funny reason, most folks (even knowledge able car TESTERS) like to first drive a VW Jetta TDI like it is a whinny Honda begging for higher rev ving, i.e., 6,100 rpms . Max torque 110 # ft @ 4,500 rpms (?) (no disrepect intended or implied I own a whinny Honda and guess how I drive it?..... and it gets 38-42 mpg in daily commuting !!??

    Predictably they are usually dissapointed. :confuse:

    Again off topic but the real secret to best mpg in the Civic is again to drive the torque. (aka with the 4500/6100 rpms ratio or @ 75% in mind.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Which is also why I often recommend a diesel with an automatic or manu-matic transmission in passenger cars , especially the heavier ones. The automatic might be better at picking the "sweet spot" for the power band.

    Also I think it's kind of risky to rev a little diesel right up to redline all the time. We are talking about very high compression engines, here, and I do worry about the ability of the cylinder head itself and the head bolts and gasket to take all that day after day (comment is not specific to VW).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While I understand it, it still amazes me the 09 TDI gets 39-45 mpg during break in with 140 hp and 236 # ft of torque weighing 770#'s more than the Civic's 2,515 #'s with 115 hp @6,100 rpms and 110 # ft of torque @ 4500 rpms, 36-42 mpg. Off the charts in comparison is the 03 TDI 90 hp/155# ft 2,950#'s or 435 #'s more while getting 48-52 mpg during the same point a to b commute.

    In addition, there are almost no comparisons @ any altitude (practically 2,000 to 8,000 ft).

    I guess one day I need to go back up to Pikes Peak (14,100 ft)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Compact sporty car: Scion tC

    2nd place: Volkswagen TDI
    Only two vehicles are listed here because they were the only ones to score above average in this category."...

    link title
  • tldtld Member Posts: 37
    Here is something a little depressing by J.D. Powers. Instead of the initial quality study, it's the long term study of 3 year old vehicles. In one report VW is 36 of 37 manufacturers and then the Jetta was 17 out of 18 vehicles in the compact class.

    Manufacturer Rank

    Compact Cars Ranking
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes indeed it is VERY interesting. FORD/GM /Toyota are literally at the top of the list and they are losing money in the US markets hand over fist !!! To have Buick do so well and be such a "SLEEPER" :sick: indicates a whole lot of other things are going on besides fine quality, durability, reliability, etc. You would think those qualities would MASSIVELY correlate with extremely good sales. Not even Tiger Woods (like he needs introduction as Golf legend, entrepreneur, etc.) could generate enough interest for and in Buick !!??

    As for bringing up the rear as VW does, it is a PROFITABLE company !!?? It is also poised to be a dominate force in the diesel market. It is truly the only one that have able to put a large minority (30% of Jetta models) of its model production in diesels. To do this in the worst model year sales in many years is also a feat. They are shooting for 40% of their US production as diesels !!!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If we had not had $4 gas prices last year I don't believe the Jetta TDI would have had nearly the jump off it has had. Good timing means a lot in the auto business.

    Does a companies current profits necessarily equate to quality??? That must mean when the Detroit Three were making tons of money they must have been generating very good vehicles indeed. I like to turn negatives into positives but this one doesn't fly!!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I had the Jetta TDI long before $4.50 gas and believe it or not, diesels are way cheaper per mile driven @ 2.25 to 3.13 per gal gas than like models. (on the order of 107 to 122% per mile driven cheaper)

    Well I think by the examples, a lot of things do not necessarily correlate or correlate inversely, or with no real trend.

    Another off topic example, I read in the local rag that the fate of the NUMMI, Fremont, CA plant (among other things, makes one of the best economy cars Toyota Corolla and light trucks Toyota Tacoma), looms in the "uncertain" column.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No I think people buy what they like, and that people who buy *special* cars especially, they factor in many things besides reliability. I think the reason is that these *special* cars offer something they can't get elsewhere, and the consumer knows that. JD Power doesn't meaasure "emotional response" or things like "how it drives". BMW made a fortune on "how it drivers" but you won't find that listed.

    RE: Break-In period -- I think modern cars are already broken in when you get them, pretty much. I never fuss over that, other than avoiding doing something really stupid with a car with 10 miles on it. But I think at 3,000 miles, you are more than done, and the car is fully broken in.
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