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VW Jetta TDI

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Engineers usually put out numbers like 4000 hours for a small diesel engine. So at 60 mph that's 240K miles. Even with a 25% fudge factor, that's 300K.
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    bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Lets not forget that the original VW TDI engine is STILL used in ocean-going vessels with very good reliability.

    Yes, it is kinda fuzzy math converting HOURS to MILES... however, your numbers do not match the others I have seen regarding the design-hours for the original TDI engine.

    In any case, the suspension, body and other moving parts will wear out long before a well- cared-for TDI engine.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You could be right...all I'm saying is that in 40 years of fixing, buying, selling and appraising cars, I have never personally viewed a single odometer with 400K on it. One hears of these things but I never did see one myself.

    I dunno, I just think it's setting expectations unrealistically high.

    But you are 100% correct on suggesting the point is moot, since very few cars survive long enough to even *get* near 400K---they succumb to collision, vandalism, or some other catastrophe of wear and tear.

    Getting back to the TDI in general, here's an interesting road test of the 2011 TDI---interesting in that it tested fuel economy in a "conservative" "normal" and "fuel mileage be damned" mode. The conclusions were not what you might expect:


    2011 Jetta TDI Road Test
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    bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    edited November 2010
    Thanks for the link - Actually, the 'conclusions' are simply the personal feelings of the testers. I have a knack of disreguarding their personal opionions.

    I am much more interested in the facts -n- figures. The MPG numbers they acheived are to be expected from a test-mule vehicle which was most certainly not broken-in with loving care. Also, the best MPG is not realized until after about 30,000 miles. (Even my gasoline engines had better MPG after about 30K.)... this may be due more to the gears, bearings and other moving components of the drivetrain "losening up".

    I find it interesting that some "testers" tend to forget this is a large-heavy vehicle with a lot of amenities... yet they insist on comparing it to a hybred which was specifically designed to be efficent. (Small and NOT adorned with all those amenities.)
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I don't think it's merely an "opinion". That's not quite fair, is it?

    ---they did in fact gather quantitative data. It might not be the *best* science, but it is better than throwing out numbers over a couple of beers.

    I do agree, though, that comparing the Jetta to a hybrid rather misses the total picture.

    Actually it wasn't the fuel mileage per se that interested me--it was that spirited driving yielded almost as much fuel economy as being conservative. That's what I thought was worth mentioning. It rather speaks to the characteristics of diesel engines I think.
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    eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Most of us TDI owners know from experience how the "drive it like you stole it" approach can yield optimal mpg! I drive my gassers like that too. Leadfoot up to desired speed, then into top/desired gear.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep. Heavy throttle and somewhat short-shifting is probably optimum.
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    colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Well I don't think it's merely an "opinion". That's not quite fair, is it?

    Definitely not.

    Some gas engines behave this way too, but IMHO it seems to be mostly moderate horsepower / performance vehicles. If you try this with a Camaro SS, it won't work out in favor of leadfooting. But I bet the results would be highly similar for other sub-200 HP compact and midsize cars.
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    104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    Spirited driving - a situation where spark ignition engines can easily be enriching the fuel/air ratio beyond stoichiometric to cool the converter or the exhaust manifold or the exhaust valves, thereby 'wasting' fuel. Diesels operate globally lean, injecting only the necessary amount of fuel to meet the load requirement.

    I have a diesel Ram and an Olds Achieva SCX, both with 5spd manuals. I use two routes home from work, one highway, the other stop and go. The diesel loses 5% FE on the stop and go route, and the Olds loses 10%. That's with babying the Olds and flogging the Ram, too.
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    cosmocosmo Member Posts: 203
    -14F this AM when I went out to shovel the driveway. Started the 06 Jetta TDI that had shielded at least 1/8 of the driveway. It took two tries, but after it was idling smoothly I turned on the defroster and rear widow heating elements and let it run while I shoveled away. Twenty minutes later, when I finished shoveling, the windshield and rear window were ice-free and the ice on the side windows was soft enough to scrape easily. That standard auxiliary electric heater saved me several more minutes of icy misery. Of course, the engine temperature gauge needle had not budged.
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    notquitejettanotquitejetta Member Posts: 12
    Wheels seem to be wimpy on this car. I have a 2010 and after 38,000 miles of Detroit driving I have a confimed 2 bent wheels, and possbily 3. Nothing like this has happened on past cars (other brands). Not too happy about that. Please stay tuned for my next posting, where I talk about how my less-than-one-year-old Jetta now won't start, leaving me stranded twice. This car is fast becoming a heap of crap.
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    notquitejettanotquitejetta Member Posts: 12
    Have a 2010 TDI. Been running great since I bought it. The other night I drove home from work (52 miles) and parked it in the driveway. Came back 10 minutes later to drive off again, and car would not start. Ended up having it hauled to local VW dealer. They ran diagnostics, found nothing wrong. Car started for them. So this morning I picked up the car, which started, and drove it to work. Now here I sit stranded as once again it will not start. Any ideas out there? Any history of bad fuel pumps, etc.? I have no idea what the issue is, and frankly neither does the dealership, or at least they arent' telling me. Not acceptable for a car this new - loving that German engineering right about now!
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hmmm....is it very cold where you are parked? Sometimes, if it's a cold start issue, once they bring it to the dealer's warm workspace, it starts right up...just a thought...
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    altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    LOL! They got the car to start. But did they try to restart it? Sounds like they didn't re-create the original scenario.
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    bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    I did not realize you were trying to point out that the TDI gets about the same MPG even if driven hard.

    I am sure you know that this is because a gasoline engine CANNOT be run lean under any conditions lest the pistons will melt. Hence, the fuel-injection MUST be maintained based on the throttle-plate opening. A gasoline engine is constantly wasting power creating a vacuum against the throttle-plate.

    A diesel engine has no such restriction and is actually throttled by controlling the amount of fuel injected. There is no throttle-plate in a diesel. This is another reason a diesel engine gets such good MPG... it is not constantly working at sucking a vacuum against a throttle-plate. Instead, the power goes to the wheels.

    BTW: My TDI gets 56 MPG carrying 4 adults and luggage in 90 degree temp and the AC blasting. (I have repeated this over several 14-hour drives)... a hybred cannot even dream of doing this. (I am not sure 4 adults would last 14 hours in a hybred anyway)
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    fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Under some circumstances EFI (gas) engines run very lean....in fact injecting little or no fuel into the engine, but you will never notice if your vehicle is properly maintained. And no I'm not talking about cylinder deactivation while cruising at a steady speed.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Your mileage is truly exceptional and seems well above the reported averages---good for you!
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    grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    My TDI gets 56 MPG carrying 4 adults and luggage in 90 degree temp and the AC blasting.

    What speed are you travelling at?
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited November 2010
    (I am not sure 4 adults would last 14 hours in a hybred anyway)

    Your car is bigger and more comfortable than the midsize hybrids that are available now or are coming on line soon??? I'm not saying any hybrid would get as good as mpg as you say you are getting but there are plenty that are as very comfortable and bigger than a Jetta or Golf.

    I haven't seen anybody else EVER report those kind of numbers with a loaded car. Approaching 50mpg maybe but that's it. I have heard of cars(gas and diesel) hit that number when they are being driven at 35-40 mph for a short periord of time in controlled conditions in some kind of mpg contest but not an everyday driver. That must be some car you have there.
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    colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Totally agree; modern gas engines do go very lean under light throttle / light load conditions. 15:1 AFR and above, easily.

    Its not the same as diesel ignition though.. of course.
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    asaasa Member Posts: 359
    You mentioned "wimpy" wheels on your 2010 TDI. Are yours the standard Bioline wheels or the optional larger wheels with low sidewall tires? Our standard Bioline wheels have been subject to real abuse (my wife has driven up and over numerous curbs at speed) without any failures. The optional larger wheels with low sidewall tires are more subject to damage because there's less room for the tire to flex.
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    notquitejettanotquitejetta Member Posts: 12
    They are the standard 16" Bioline wheels. There some nasty potholes around Detroit, and if I had bent only one of them I wouldn't be surprised. But two to three? That's why I'm thinking they're not too robust. The cost to replace with more VW wheels to sky high, so I'll probably go aftermarket once winter is over (and the road crews have patched all the new potholes from winter).
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    notquitejettanotquitejetta Member Posts: 12
    altair4:

    I'm kind of wondering that myself. After the second stranding I called another tow truck, and the tow driver, who drives a diesel all day, managed to get it to start after I couldn't. So I drove it back to the dealer, and then had them walk out and try to start it again. It wouldn't. So they got to see that after a long drive it won't re-start. It is there now, getting checked over again. Hopefully they'll track down the issue and it will be cheap to fix, since I'm already out of warranty.
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    bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    edited November 2010
    you asked ==> "What speed are you travelling at? "

    I usually lock in the cruze-control about 6MPH over the speed-limit. This is because I know that German automobiles purposly read about 2MPH higher than the actual roadspeed. (Hence, I am traveling 4MPH over the limit.)

    I also know that my TDI engine torque-peak is at 18000 RPM, this translates to maximum MPG at 55MPH.

    You may sense that I am an engineer and use my knowledge to squeeze the best MPG out of my vehicles.
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    bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    You have it partually correct. A gasoline EFI injects NO FUEL during overrun conditions. However, running lean during other times can melt aluminum pistons.

    The "optimum" gasoline-air mixture is known as stoichiometric. (14.7 to 1) This means all the oxygen in the mixture is 'used up' after all the fuel burns. HOWEVER - in practice, this considerd a lean mixture and is only a theoretical optimum mixture.

    I could go into the theory behind 'swirl' combustion-chambers, multi-valve heads, dual sparkplug, specialized cooling systems and other 'tricks'.... but the bottom-line is that for a gasoline engine, one HAS to inject extra fuel to keep things cool and prevent pistons from melting.

    Back in the 1980s, Chrysler introduced the "Lean Burn" engine. It was a great concept... except that it overheated and melted pistons. A gasoline engine cannot be run lean without generating excessive heat in the combustion-chambers. This is simply the nature of the beast. There is no engineering to get around this fact.

    SURPRIZE!!! Gasoline is actually not the best fuel for automobiles. If we were starting from scratch with no infrastructure, I am certain that engineers would recommend a different way to propel people in an automobile. But this is what we have, and there are drawbacks to using gasoline. One of these drawbacks is that running lean will melt pistons.
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    nglam99nglam99 Member Posts: 1
    My 2011 Jetta TDI Sportwagen lost acceleration power on the highway. It occurred when I had the brand new car only for 2 weeks and less than 1000 miles. While I was driving on the highway at about 65 mph, the engine limped without warning and the car could only go at about 30 mph. Many warning lights came on and the engine control malfunction warning light stayed on. After I pulled off the highway and shut off the engine, the engine power returned when I restarted the car. The dealership said it was a EGR valve problem. They claimed cleaning it and re-programmed the unit have fixed the problem. VW car care line would not confirm whether other cars of the same model have the same problem. But I have heard there are other cases similar to mine. tt is interesting that after a lot of heated exchange, the VW car care person said new cars are now reprogrammed at the factory. When I asked how about the cars that are already on the road, there was no response.

    Then another scary instant happen to me on the highway about 2000 miles later. my car jerked while I was driving at around 60 mph on the highway. It felt like as if the car applied the breaks on its own. It happened multiple times during a 200 miles trip. Many warning lights came on for a short time but only the steering warning light stayed on for a while. Ultimately the engine limped and partially lost power and I had to pull off the road immediately. The car was finally towed to a dealership. They claimed this time the problem was a loose connection in the ABS module. However, the ABS warning light did not stay on when all these happened, until ultimately many warning lights stayed on.

    I am very concern about these two critical safety issue and wonder whether they are actually related; both happened at highway speed. I would like to find out whether any of you have the same experience with the 2011 Jetta TDI Sportwagen.
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    tditorontotditoronto Member Posts: 6
    I'm so glad to be reading about someone else who has had a very similar problem to mine. I have a 2010 Jetta TDI with 6-speed manual. I haven't had the warning lights go on, or had to pull off the road, but at around 2,000 rpms, which equates to around 60 on the highway in 5th, or at lower speeds in lower gears, I've had the same feeling of power loss. It's almost like a hiccup. I cure it myself by dropping a gear or two and getting the revs up. Still, it shouldn't be happening. I've got around 5,000 miles on it now, but it's been doing it since day one. Haven't had a chance to take it in for a diagnosis. Before I do, and they spend days examining it, has anyone else had a similar problem? If so, have you discovered the source?
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Your problem doesn't sound even remotely similar to the previous post. He was getting tons of warning lights and the engine went into limp mode which would only allow the car to be driven at about 30mpg.
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    mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    I have a 2009 Jetta TDI with the standard radio (not GPS). Does anyone know if there is a way to have the display light stay on whenever the radio is turned on? During the day the display is hard to see but if I turn on my headlights the radios display light makes a big difference. It looks like it would be a simple wiring job as the light goes off when I turn off the radio even though the buttons remain lit when the headlights are on.
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    tdi_roostertdi_rooster Member Posts: 2
    Last night while driving on the highway between 60-65 mph a single flash warning on the tachometer and mfd caused sudden power loss which decreased the vehicle speed down to 50-55 mph.. I felt the brake pedal move on its own braking the vehicle.. luckily I was near an exit ramp and could exit the highway immediately.. I could only maintain a speed 25-30 mph.. this is considered a new car by all means, '10 vw jetta, driven mostly highway with some secondary roads and little city driven miles.. up to now there were no per say hiccups except for getting used to driving a standard in automatic mode.. does any one know if this is a common in these vehicles..? I will be taking it in today re: recent power loss causing sudden vehicle speed decrease on its own which I think is a safety issue..
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They'll have to see if there are stored trouble codes. The symptoms you describe are really too generalized to hint at some cause---but of course, one would look at fuel pump and fuel filter on any TDI. If there are NO codes, that suggests even more a fuel delivery issue, since many of the fuel components don't throw codes.

    As for problems, the only things I see in the Technical Service Bulletins list of any relevance is issues with 02 sensors on the 2010.

    There's also a vaguely related recall campaign about a temperature sensor affecting the DSG automatic, making it shift into neutral and illuminating the "depress brake pedal" light as well as causing the gear indicator light to flash. Don't know if this is related exactly, but it kinda fits your situation.

    The recall is

    MFR'S REPORT DATE: August 20, 2009

    NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID NUMBER: 09V333000

    NHTSA ACTION NUMBER: PE09035

    COMPONENT: Power Train: Automatic Transmission

    POTENTIAL NUMBER OF UNITS AFFECTED: 16000
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    uvroweruvrower Member Posts: 10
    Just left the dealership ordering a 2011 Jetta TDI SW with 6 spd manual and panoramic roof for delivery in January. Disappointed that I cannot get the MDI for my iPhone. Originally told I could, then told only on the sedan, then told only with the Premium package that comes with NAV, which I do not want.

    Does anyone know the real story or how to add this later?

    Thanks
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2010
    The real key, actually open secret (to which you allude) is to know understand and be able to execute the VW owners manual technical page. I find your 56 mpg definitely believable. I only use cruise control to verify its functioning and to recall how it works. When I keep it to 10 mph over the speed limit with bursts up to 20 mph over that (SL) 59 mpg is achievable over multiple tank fills. Normally I am just fine with 48-50 mpg. :)
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    winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I am looking to purchase a VW Jetta TDI Wagon either new or used and I am looking for some input as well as recommendations from the VW world.

    My previous vehicle was a Jeep Liberty CRD that threw a rod at 77,594 miles. I am battling Chrysler at this moment to make them pay for the repairs.
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    mamx4mamx4 Member Posts: 10
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    happy2010tdierhappy2010tdier Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2010 Jetta TDI and I noticed the exact same hiccup. Mainly when I'm coasting or come over the crest of a hill. I mentioned it at the first care-free maintenance and they said they didn't notice it after test-driving. I'm not too worried about it. It doesn't affect performance. It's just a little hiccup.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2010
    Sorry to hear about the Jeep CRD's thrown rod. 78,000 miles is WAY too little miles for something as major as that to happen. Hopefully it will be covered under warranties.

    I have a mind to say the JSW TDI is NOTHING like the Jeep Liberty CRD. As you probably know the JSW has been the "hot" version Jetta and TDI. As such, there are less of them made/imported and they are normally sold at a premium. They have held their resale numbers and percentages over sedan TDI's, albeit slightly. The additional thing about the later models is most JSW's are actually TDI's (last I have read 84%) . I myself have a 09 Jetta sedan (that MY sold 25% TDI's). So fire away if the TDI portion is of interest to you.
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    notquitejettanotquitejetta Member Posts: 12
    Hope you get some recovery on the Jeep. All I can tell you is I have 2010 Sportwagen TDI - I've had it one year and a few days, and just rolled 40,000 miles. Any trivial issues I've had were fixed by the dealer during the free maintenance period, and they were few. I had one major issue with starting (I should say non-starting) but that turned out to be some bad fuel I was unfortunate enough to purchase (avoid BP). Other than that the car has been great; great mileage, runs great, drives great, comfortable, and everything works as advertised. I would and do recommend it to anyone.
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    winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Unfortunately Chrysler is not willing to help at all. The warranty died at 70K miles and I am 7.6K over. Since I did not have all of my oil change receipts that did not help either although the dealer I purchased my Jeep from said they would vouch for me but the DM never called.

    As to size, that is now irrelevant. I never took the Jeep offroad except once to try it in that environment. I bought it primarily for the diesel engine which is made by V.M. Motori in Cento Italy. They have been building diesels since 1947 and have a fairly good reputation. I have looked at and test driven the JSW TDI with the DSG trans. It was comfortable, quiet and had sparkling handling. It was a bit sluggish off the line but had very good mid-range power.

    Thanks to all who have contributed answers. I would also like to hear about the 2005 and 2006 Jetta TDI. I would also like to hear about problems, maintenance costs, etc.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Finding a 2005-06 Jetta wagon with TDI is next to impossible. If you do it either has 200k miles on it or way over priced. They also did not have the DSG transmission which is a great transmission. If you want AWD the Touareg TDI is quite a vehicle. Of course it is $50k like the competition from Audi, BMW and Mercedes. The Touareg roots are tied to the Porsche Cayenne. It is probably far and away the best of the bunch offroad.

    I have followed your whole ownership of the Jeep CRD. I am sorry to hear of your problems with that engine. I know you have kept everyone up to date. That just seems crazy it would not last any longer than 77k miles. What is a rebuild going to cost? I would imagine the Chrysler BK protects them from any kind of litigation. A real bummer.
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    winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I am not aware of an remanufactured CRD engines. The dealer down in Florida will not entertain putting in a used engine either.

    On the Jeep blog someone mentioned the "Secret Warranty" or "After Warranty Assistance". I read that article and came away very angry at Chrysler. The article implied that loyalty also means getting your vehicle serviced at the dealer and getting your vehicle serviced elsewhere or doing it yourself is considered or implied to be an act of disloyalty toward the manufacturer.

    When I purchased the Jeep in 2005, I did look at a Jetta wagon. I found it tight to sit in considering I was coming from a Dodge Dakota Pickup with the extended cab. I also looked at a basic Passat TDI wagon but the dealer I went to insisted that they do all of the maintenance because of warranty issues if I did the work myself. That was a real turn off for me.

    I will be leaving work early today to look at a Kia Sorrento. A Toureg is just too much money. CarMax has 2009 and 2010 Jetta TDI sedans and wagons for a few thousand less than new and they have 20K or less on them. They also have a BMW 335d for $36.5K. It had 19K miles on it. If I had the money I might jump on that one.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2010
    The BMW 335 D has been a MOST impressive vehicle !!! In almost all ways it is totally over the top. 405 to 425 #ft of torque is almost a total rush. I was cautioned (by a close friend who is a non diesel BMW wonk) to make sure about the 335 D's tire availability (size is weird 225/45/17 min to 225/40 18 F 255/35/18) . It also goes without saying one should be ready for the COST and @ much more frequent intervals.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The 335D has to be a rocket. I test drove the X5 with that engine and it would blow the doors off most V8s. I think the 335D is in the 6 second range on 0-60 MPH. I am not sure why the Touareg is so expensive. Other than it shares a lot of parts with the very expensive Cayenne.

    I would think an independent diesel shop could overhaul that CRD.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The run flat tires do cause me to look elsewhere also. Not sure if BMW offers alternatives to those of US that will not buy into the Run Flat scam.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It really might come down to an independent shop who is skilled and knowledgeble about diesels. It would seem to me to be those folks who have taken a speciaty in Cummins, Ford or Chevrolet diesel/'s "light" (heavy) trucks.

    The dimensions of the JSW have almost radically changed but really, not by much. The fact the 2005/2006 JSW's are PD engines might be the good/bad news and present buying opportunities. As you probably have heard PD engines seem to have a higher RATE of camshaft failures R/R can take the better part of a 2,000 dollar bill.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The dealer mislead you. Doing some of your own maintenance does not automatically imperil your warranty. That is just nonsense.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would agree. You really have to wonder why it was said. Was it part of the justification for warranty denial? Was it to tenderize one for the coming engine replacement bill? Go away boy, you're bothering me?
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I think it was said in order to corner all the service work back to the dealership. Dealer service profits often carry the dealership along far better than the sometimes slim margins on their entry level cars.
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    eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited December 2010
    for the 04/05 passat TDI, doing 100% dealer-service is probably a good idea. 100% of those engine encounter catastrophic oil-chain/oil-system failure by about 100k. VW issued a redesigned gear-setup and no longer sells defective parts/chain-setup. The repair is a multi-thousand$ job from what I have seen.
    Some people had to pay for it out of their own pocket, others didn't.
    Some covered by VWUSA "out of warranty". Some not. Sometimes the dealership would split the cost of whatever VWUSA didn't cover. Probably there are 95 variations of how it was handled in different cases.
    (But I think we can guess which customers the dealerships mostly tend to go-the-extra-mile for - convincing VWUSA/zone-office/corporate to step up and pay for these by-design out-of-warranty failures.)
    Needless to say , there are great TDI/VW dealer service depts, and others that are not so great. The one nearest to me happens to be fantastic....
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    eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    ps - the "100%" in previous article was probably overstated. I've seen an estimates of "50%" from a knowledgeable actual-mechanic.
    sincerely,
    armchair-mechanic
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