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Hybrid Gas Mileage Good? Bad? As Expected?
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Comments
Yes
Exactly! That's why in Prius, the main 50kW motor is directly connected to the driveshaft. I believe electric cars are hooked up like this. There are only reduction gears between driveshaft and the wheels. Toyota took advantage of the nature of electric motor torque output(lower as RPM increases) to correspond with higher gear ratio in traditional transmission. So, lower torque as you go faster would be consistent with upshifting with transmission.
"Dennis any other issue ?"
Yea, IMA only has one electric motor. Therefore, it can not support ICE and generate electricity at the same time. I think it is a big disadvantage.
Dennis
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-0...con-cover_x.htm
A quote from the article, NOT used by permission:
"Sometimes I think, 'Sucker,' " says an unhappy MaryJo Meer, 37, of Chula Vista, Calif. She bought a Honda Civic gas-electric hybrid May 19 expecting close to the 47 mpg EPA rating. Instead, she's getting 34 mpg, even though most of her driving is on the highway, where Honda's type of hybrid does best.
"They're actually charging us more for a car to save the environment and all that crap, and we're not saving anything at all," she says. "If I'd have known that, I'd have kept my SUV."
Someone ought to try to contact her - I think she needs to be taught some Hybrid driving tricks !!
Very interesting article I thought.......
Someone is planting some bullstuff on this board......
Makes me giggle.....
And that's the whole point of the Hybrid phenomenon anyway, is it not..?
___The Honda’s give me > 50% better then EPA estimates at their peaks whether Hybrid’s or not. Well, the Hybrid gives me ~ 55% better then EPA estimates at peak but that was a one off hypermileage run for a world record. The Toyota’s past and present; give me another ~ 35% over and above. The Ford’s, about ~ 30%, and GM’s that I have driven for lengthy drives, about the same.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Has anyone had other problems? My 2004 Civic Hybrid is 2 mos. 5 days old and the cruise control has stopped to function.
Also paint chips very easily- just awful. Price also far too high!
mia420
Got about 31 mpg.
My friend, the owner, driving as he does quite conservatively, averages about 44 mpg and has never averaged higher than that for any *substantial* amount of time.
I also don't believe at this time that hybrids can do much more than that in "real world" driving, that is, over hill and dale, without being overly-conscious of driving habits. In other words, driving it just like a regular car.
I'm sure that people in very restrictive or unusual driving situations could do better than that however. (short urban trips in flatlands for example).
So my current conclusion is that for someone like myself, there is no economic incentive whatsoever to buy a hybrid. There may be, however, other types of incentives that I could respond to (taxes, environment, use of carpool lane, new toy aspect, conversational piece, etc.).
His wife drives that same hybrid really hard. It kills his average. She only averages 50 MPG.
That's obviously higher than the undocumented claims made here. Heck, even with the high-traction tires on my 2004 Prius (and the break-in of them), I've been averaging 53.5 MPG all summer long.
The problem is in part due to poor upkeep. Over filled oil (a very, very common problem caused by pumping oil from large bulk barrels) and uninflated tires are a simple MPG enhancing measure. Another is switching to synthetic oil.
Another issue is when the person babies the accelerator pedal. Slow accleration impairs efficiency. Brisk accleration yields higher MPG. Of the course, the other end of the spectrum is speeding. Driving the legal limit increases MPG.
JOHN
___Here is one idea in regards to Hybrid’s. If you drive from 0 - 60 in 10 seconds all the time (no mass produced and available hybrid can achieve that as of this writing), you will receive very poor mileage. You will also receive really poor mileage in the much faster std. ICE equipped counterpart as well. If you want to achieve extremely high mileage, the Hybrid can deliver in spades whereas the std. ICE is limited by its larger ICE and its lower overall gearing in most cases.
___Here is an example. An HCH might be able to achieve 70 mpg in a max mpg run. A std. Civic might hit 55 at best. If you flog the Hybrid, its fuel economy will not impress but neither will the non-Hybrid.
John:
Another issue is when the person babies the accelerator pedal. Slow accleration impairs efficiency. Brisk accleration yields higher MPG. Of the course, the other end of the spectrum is speeding. Driving the legal limit increases MPG.
___That is pure BS. You really need to improve your fuel economy driving skills. Your comments about speed are dead on however.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I suggest you study HSD some more.
An engine is most efficient at around 70 percent utilization. Brisk accleration takes full advantage of that.
Remember, the resulting electricity caused by the excess thrust generated by the engine running at a higher than necessary RPM comes into play as a benefit later. And I have lots of real-world data from many Prius owners which prove that.
JOHN
If I can't take advantage of the electric motor (let's say hauling up to Lake Tahoe from San Francisco), all I'm really driving is an odd-shaped Echo.
I think I'd do better with a VW TDI in this hilly geology (earthquake territory last couple hundred thousand years).
Let me get this straight. You want to use a compact car(classic Prius?) to tow something from SF to Lake Tahoe? You'll need the right tool to do the right job. Try Highlander Hybrid or Lexus RX400H with 3,000lbs towing capability.
You don't need to take advantage of the electric motor(s). HSD will do that for you in combination with ICE (either gas for diesel).
Dennis
I alluded to the 2004 Prius performance going up the Eisenhower
Tunnel in CO on I-70 (11OOO ft) yesterday. Since I got several
personal replies and questions, I will also post more details here.
The Eisenhower tunnel climb is probably not the longest or steepest
climb on a US interstate, but considering the 1100O ft elevation, it
might be the most demanding overall. One side is very long but
mostly gradual, the other very steep (for an interstate). Speed
limit is generally 65.
Here are the details for a 2004 Prius, 2 adults, skis, gear, ~30-40 F
I-70 westbound - long but mostly gradual 5000 ft climb with some
steep hills:
You can keep it over 65 all the way to Loveland ski area. Only in
the last mile on that last hill right before the tunnel, the speed
dropped to 63 since the battery was at its lowest level (one purple
bar) and could longer contribute power full time. Even then I was
still passing cars on the highway.
I-70 eastbound - from Dillon it's an 8 mile, continously steep (5-
7%) climb up to over 11000ft:
The Prius will go over 65 for several minutes until the battery is
at one bar. Then the speed will gradually drop to 60 (floored).
This is about the same speeds as I could go with our Nissan truck (4
cylinder) or with my very old Acura (maybe it would have done better
by putting it in 2nd and redlining it, but that's bad for the
engine). All gasoline cars lose a significan amount of power at such
high elevations (just like people do too), so I'd say the Prius is
about average for a reasonably priced "regular" car. Also, if you
live in CO, you'll know that I-70 is usually clogged up on weekends
and going over 60 is often not an option anyway.
The Prius passes the test for me on such hard climbs, especially
considering that you still get great gas mileage (45-50mpg
roundtrip).
Dennis
by putting it in 2nd and redlining it, but that's bad for the
engine).
Since when redlining a Honda engine is a bad thing for the engine? Honda engines are designed to be in the upper limits of the rev range. One misinformed former Honda/Acura owner.
On the driving skills question. Someone posted that brisk accelerations may yeild better fuel economy. Although I am not sure about that, but a few years back, there was an article on the advantages of shifting 1-3-5 at redline vs 1-2-3-4-5 in the sub-3000 rpm range. The article concluded that by doing 1-3-5 shifts at redline they achieved better fuel economy vs doing 1-2-3-4-5 shifts at 3000 RPM. The 1-3-5 shifts may not work on a very tall geared Hybrid, but they work fine on the Si I have. I get consistently better "in-city" mileage than highway, because of the short gearing and i-VTEC (modified VTEC-e of yore). The i-VTEC on the Si, essentially operates as 12 valve engine bellow 2200 RPM, providing the engine with a very stratifed fuel charge and inducng "swirl" with un-evenly sized valves. Once over the 2200 the engine operates in the 16 valve mode. meanwhile, VTC is constantly advancing or retarding ignition to provide the most torque. I have to say I am very impressed with the technology that went into the new i-VTEC. Please don't confuse this i-VTEC with the ones on the RSX-S and TSX, which are true VTEC on the intake and exhaust.
Engine speed is artificially limited to just 5000 RPM, which is quite tame by most standards.
JOHN
___In the 5-speed Insights, a 1-2-5 will get you higher fuel economy to 55 mph but it takes 1 to 2 miles of hidden charging to get you back to the same SOC. The much gentler 1-2-3-4-5 acceleration methods fuel economy is higher overall because there is no charging needed given that you didn’t use Assist or very little in the first place.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
This is very true.
Recovering a partially charged battery will always consume more energy, there is no free lunch.
___Hybrids can produce excellent fuel economy when need be (my trip home tonight ) but most are not even close. It is truly sad that those who talk the talk cannot walk the walk just because they are simply to proud or foolish to learn the tricks of the trade
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I believe most people mistakingly think cruise control gets the best result.
That's pretty darn good considering the fuel I use is E10 (which lowers efficiency by about 1.7 MPG), I switched to high-traction tires (which lower efficiency by about 3 MPG until broken-in, then by about 1.5 MPG less afterward), and I live in Minnesota where winter-formula fuel and the extremely cold temperatures absolutely kill efficiency (in all types of vehicles).
In simplistic terms, the expectation this next year is to average mid 40's in the winter and low 50's in the summer.
JOHN
With the 2004, I have no idea. The need to carry more than 2 bikes hasn't come up yet. So all my travel has been using internal storage... which is pretty sweet. I love having a hatchback!
JOHN
I found useful driving tips around the net but mainly Wayne's (xcel) suggestions helped me to drive more efficiently.
The PSI suggestion is should not be used. Never exceed the cold pressure beyond the MAX stated on the sidewall of the tire itself.
JOHN
___It looks like Sylvia nixed the post so hopefully you received the links Let me give credit where credit is due however. Rick Reese and his 5-speed Insight out of the Carolina’s (best high fuel economy - long distance hill driver in the world imho), Chisight and his 5-speed Insight near me (best high fuel economy - city driver in the world imho), and Billy and his 5-speed Insight out of Washington State (best high fuel economy - mountain driver in the world imho) taught me most of everything I know in regards to high fuel economy driving
___Wayne R. Gerdes
JOHN
___Is this the data were you interested in?
Honda Insight: 91.6 lmpg, HCH w/ CVT: 57.1 lmpg, or a Prius II: 49.3 lmpg?
Honda Insight: 1,523.9 miles, HCH: 748 miles, or a Prius II: 490 miles on a single tank of fuel?
Honda Insight: 116.5 mpg over 96 miles, HCH: 68.8 mpg over 15.7 miles, or a Prius II: ? mpg over any lengthy distance?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
JOHN
If you choose to objectively discuss class data-averages (many owners combined), then I'm interested... since they better represent real-world expectations.
JOHN
Let's stop alienating people from this discussion and other hybrid discussions by continuously requiring your personal requirements on what you will and won't discuss.
I hate to tell you, but these discussions are for everyone to share THEIR experiences. Please, don't discount that other folks may have actual experiences and opinions that differ from your own. It's a big world.
That is the maximum pressure the tire will hold safely. If you are at the max Cold, you will exceed the max warm or hot. I say that is a very daring proposition to save a few droplets of gasoline. The replacemnt tires, the damage done to the car and insurance deductible (if they cover owner's deliberate incompliance with the recommended safety procedures) will superseed any gas savings.
___Hybrids can produce excellent fuel economy when need be (my trip home tonight ) but most are not even close. It is truly sad that those who talk the talk cannot walk the walk just because they are simply to proud or foolish to learn the tricks of the trade
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Nice picture. what were the conditions and how many people did you piss off doing 25 in 55?
lol
I can get any car to do that going downhill in 5th with the closed thorttle. Heck, I will get even better mileage if I shut off the engine while going down hill.
I understand that you are proud of youe purchase, but you are going out of your way to achieve the numbers.
Of course he is - any sensible Hybrid owner is doing the same thing. Hybrids provide special gauges to help the driver learn how to maximize MPG.
It's called the Game. Play it and reap the rewards: 50+, even 60+ MPG tanks......
Those drivers that practice that extreme are probably not doing to save fuel. I think he/she is doing it for the bragging rights to be famous or infamous. Imagine what other extreme they would go to achieve those bragging mpg rights? Clogging up the traffic by not going with the traffic flow? How about the drivers behind him/her hitting brakes due to unexpected slow driver? Overall, more oil is being wasted by other drivers and he/she is being "selfish" by going against traffic flow on the public roads. Whenever I see those drivers, I question myself, if they know what kind of effect they are generating? If they know, don't they feel guilty or remorse? *steam vavle closed*
Dennis
Well, not going to speak directly for others, but for myself, driver of a 2004 manual tranny HCH, I guess I am a little "selfish."
But remember: None of the other drivers on the road are paying for my gas or my mortgage or my kid's braces - I am.
When I drive for high MPG, I try REALLY hard to stay out of the way of "speeders" and I *CONSTANTLY" monitor my rearview mirror for people I need to get out of the way for, and I change to a lane which looks to be the least crowded anytime I need to do so. It's an acquired skill, no doubt about it.
But in my case for sure, I'll never put my kids or myself or any other driver in DANGER on purpose to save 5 teaspoons of gas. Personal decision.
I *DO* reserve the right to drive 5 mph below the speed limit, and I will fight tooth and nail with anyone who says I do not. Speed LIMITS are a MAXIMUM - not a minimum. Anyone ticked off at me for going 70 in a 75 or 53 in a 55 can take a flying leap, as long as I'm not holding up a long line of cars or causing a safety issue, which I would never do.
People have lots of hobbies - one of mine happens to be trying to get max MPG out of my HCH. I don't and won't apologize for that......:)
Laterz......
Hmmm, here in California they can issue citations for not keeping up with the traffic.
But I know of no laws that can be enforced that say "if the flow of traffic is in a speed-limit breaking range" drivers can be ticketed for driving below the range, if said range is illegal.
Is that how the law is worded?
I'm doubting California is much different than that.
In all states, the right lane is for slower drivers.
Nice picture. what were the conditions and how many people did you piss off doing 25 in 55?
___Not a chance. 50 mph in our 55 mph zone. I drive mostly at 04:30 - 06:30 AM, with some 09:30 - 11:30 AM, 12:30 - 02:30 PM, 08:30 - 10:30 PM as well as 11:00 PM - 01:00 AM depending on shift if that helps.
I can get any car to do that going downhill in 5th with the closed thorttle. Heck, I will get even better mileage if I shut off the engine while going down hill.
___Really? Let see it over 96 miles. In fact, I have a little 1,523.9 mile run and a 1465.4 mile drive on a single tank of fuel back and forth to work. Why do this? If you cannot figure out the difference between driving 1165 miles on 10 gallons of fuel or 1,500 + miles on 14 vs. driving 490 miles on 9.93 gallons, you certainly could care less about saving natural resources or driving a hybrid. Why not consider placing a “Save our Troops” message on your bumper and then driving with your automobile in 2nd gear for the next three months if you haven’t figure it out quite yet.
I understand that you are proud of youe purchase, but you are going out of your way to achieve the numbers.
___You bet I am going out of my way to save fuel because God isn’t making any more of it if you haven’t heard. Why you don’t go out of your way to do the same in whatever automobile you drive is beyond comprehension given today’s main political topics of conversation. Maybe you haven’t read a paper, watched the TV news, or seen the sign posting gas prices at your local gas station in the last 9 months?
___Here is a small story that might bring you up to date
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,107- 57920%5E28737,00.html
___So are you satisfied with your fuel economy or not and or for all the right reasons? It doesn’t matter that you drive a Hybrid or not to answer this simple question
___Wayne R. Gerdes
How about SMOG related emissions?
___I don’t know, since it is rated a LEV on our garbage high sulfur fuel here in the Chicagoland area. Remember SMOG forming pollutants are calculated with a % mix of City/Hwy in g/mile. With that, maybe you can enlighten us all given my 105 mpg average over the entire summer or 90.6 mpg lmpg. Give me some Blue Planet and I bet I am darn near SULEV What are yours given you are receiving less then EPA estimates on Blue Planet? Are you still at PZEV levels or not given the poor fuel economy you have received these past months of ownership?
___Here are my Insight 5-speed’s, Misterme’s HCH w/ CVT, and your Prius II’s data that can be documented just in case you missed it above
Honda Insight: 91.6 lmpg, HCH: 57.1 lmpg, Prius II: 49.3 lmpg to help you with the math.
Also, I refuse to engage in debates about personal data (just one owner), since personal situations are never clear.
___You always ask for data so I am using your documented data vs. mine. Why would you not want to use your own data? Is it not factual?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As I already stated, it is not objective to base real-world expectations on data from just one owner.
If it was, I would use Bill's data (a 2004 Prius owner that lives close to me), whose current tank is 63.6 MPG at 480 miles.
JOHN
Since when is 53.7 MPG poor?
And taking into account the E10 fuel (1.7 MPG) and the new tires (2 MPG), that average is actually 57.4 MPG.
Not a single person here can argue that 57.4 MPG for a mid-size sedan delivering PZEV emissions is "poor".
JOHN
Those drivers that practice that extreme are probably not doing to save fuel. I think he/she is doing it for the bragging rights to be famous or infamous. Imagine what other extreme they would go to achieve those bragging mpg rights? Clogging up the traffic by not going with the traffic flow? How about the drivers behind him/her hitting brakes due to unexpected slow driver? Overall, more oil is being wasted by other drivers and he/she is being "selfish" by going against traffic flow on the public roads. Whenever I see those drivers, I question myself, if they know what kind of effect they are generating? If they know, don't they feel guilty or remorse? *steam vavle closed*
___I don’t know what type of individual you are to doubt my motives but since you aren’t a Hybrid owner and highly doubt you are attempting to drive economically in whatever you drive nowadays, why ask? I have a $22.00 budget for fuel and I am darn well going to try and meet that budget irregardless of Rain, Sleet, Snow, or Temperatures. Fortunately, the right lanes in and around my locale are for a minimum 45 to a maximum 55 mph. What everyone else does in the 4 lanes to my left is their business and their business alone
___Whenever I see drivers speeding in the right lane as you appear to do, I can hope they get pulled over for not at least following the speed limits let alone being dangerous to those driving the speed limits in that lane. Maybe you should consider following the speed limits yourself or leaving a bit earlier in your normal commute to save some of our planets resources or at least lower your emissions given your haste to get wherever it is you are trying to get to.
___As to the topic of the thread, you don’t own a hybrid and apparently don’t receive EPA estimates from whatever you drive so why bother posting at all? Are you saddened by the fact that you don’t own a hybrid or meet EPA estimates in whatever you drive because you are in such a hurry? Set your alarm clock to ring 15 minutes earlier so you can leave without being in such a hurry. The life you save very well be your own let alone a bus filled with school children or whatever else you hit while exceeding the speed limits in that far right lane.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Hybrid is certainly not the one to save the natural resources. Even though Hybrids do achieve great MPG's, the costs associated with the production of the added equipment negate any savings the vehicle achieves during its useful life. So, in reality, hybrids just relocated the "emmisions" somewhere else.
Also, by someone doing 5 mph under the speed of traffic is causing other drivers to use more gas to pass them. So, in reality, yes you are saving money on gas for your self, but you are not generating a better net energy economy.
The only currently available technology to generate net energy savings is the mass transit. So, be honest, ride the bus!