Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

newcar31 · November 2004

Whatever. If you go and buy a new Mazda6 right now, you won't have to worry about the rust issue. I'm starting to believe that I won't have to worry about it either because it hasn't gotten worse. And my car had 2 recalls. Again, not a big deal for a first year car if you ask me.

I haven't had one CEL, no clutch problems, and my cloth seats are fine. Knock on wood.

Go check out the Accord and Camry threads and you'll see that there are pissed off people in there also. A guy just traded his new Accord because of brake rotor problems. Rattles seem to be a problem with many new cars. Can you imagine how pissed off you'd be if you bought a $40K car that rattled? Well, it happens.

IMO, the only truly concerning problem with the first year Mazda6s was the rust issue. CELs and rattles and a few recalls aren't a huge deal IMO, especially when a rental car is part of the warranty. FWIW, CR doesn't recommend the Mazda6 anymore and I'm very curious as to what they're basing that on. I'd bet the Mazda6 got docked hard because of the rust issue. CR figures those kinds of problems into their reliability ratings.

I mean, if people can forgive VW after numereous window clip and ignition coil failures, a rattle or two seems insignificant. The VW problems left you with windows wide open and your car stranded on the side of the road....and it took them YEARS to address those issues.

Back on topic....I wouldn't be concerned about problems with the TSX, Legacy, or TL, although I'm still wary of Honda automatic transmissions.

ateixeira · November 2004

I followed the Mazda rust issue early on but dropped out of those threads when it started to get ugly.

But unless they replaced your door's sheetmetal, I would not call it resolved.

Also, spiked soap made the sheet metal rust? Aren't they using galvanized steel? What does it say about the quality of the sheet metal used if some soap lubricant used to get some trim pieces on got the metal to rust?

And why have some 2004 owners complained if they stopped using that spiked soap?

I own a Miata and enjoy it thoroughly, BTW.

I agree with your conclusion about the head gasket problem, I'm just sharing my experience from the Subaru threads here. Complete engine failures haven't been occuring. In theory they could, sure.

But yes, to get back on topic, the engine in the new Legacy GT has not showed any signs of gasket failures so far, nor has the TSX engine showed signs of oil leaks/engine fires. I believe the TL's tranny issues are also sorted out.

Don't worry, be happy.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2004

Not all body panels are galvanized. And even if they are, the zinc plating only sticks to the surfaces of the sheetmetal, not the edges where it may have been stamped or cut (thus exposing raw steel). For that matter, the welds can rust too. In the regions they were having the rust problem, it seems positive it was coming from the edges of the panels or where there were welds.

I think they must have a lot of regions where paint was not protecting raw steel, hence the rust started and then bled through the paint.

Craig

newcar31 · November 2004

"But unless they replaced your door's sheetmetal, I would not call it resolved."

Well, it's not the door's sheetmetal with the issue, it's the window frame weld spots under the weather stripping. I check the situation often, and it doesn't appear to getting any worse. I suspect it won't be a serious issue for as long as I own the car, but maybe it will be 10 years or so down the road, but even then, you won't see it unless you look under the weatherstipping. Also, I check around the bottom and sides of the doors every time I wash my car and there is no sign of rust, and I'd see it easily because my car is silver. New door panels wouldn't have made me any happier anyway because they would've had to paint them and tear apart the inner door panels and reassemble them.

"Also, spiked soap made the sheet metal rust?"

No, it's not the sheet metal, it's the welds on the window frame that hold the weatherstripping sash in place.

"And why have some 2004 owners complained if they stopped using that spiked soap?"

Apparantley, early 2004s were also affected, I'm not sure of the exact build dates though.

ateixeira · November 2004

Interesting, guys. Still seems like a good paint job by itself should have protected it.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2004

I think the problem is that they can't possibly get paint into that region. They spot welded a small channel onto the door frame (the weatherstrip slides into the channel). The interface between the channel and the door frame is not air/water tight but it's pretty much impossible to paint. In fact, being a real thin gap, it would wick water right in. So they were asking for trouble with this design. If not soapy water, I am sure rainwater would eventually cause the same problem.

They basically need to seal that gap. If you look on the edges of our doors and other body stampings where sheetmetal comes together in a seam, it is usually sealed for this very reason. Any raw edges, unpainted metal, or seams that are not sealed are asking for a rust problem.

Craig

pat · November 2004

Hey folks, we're pretty far off-topic here ... Maybe you can find a Mazda discussion where this would be appropriate.

ateixeira · November 2004

Good suggestion. Haven't seen rust on a Subie since the Loyale models.

-juice

uncledavid · November 2004

newcar31 -CR cited problems with brakes, fuel delivery systems and electrical problems. The M6 actually had one of the worst reliablity ratings in its class.

BTW, the Mazda MPV and Mazda RX8 also had dismal reliability, and were removed from their recommended list.

Personally, I think Mazda, Subarau, and Acura are all going to make reasonably reliable cars, but that is just my opinion.

ateixeira · November 2004

The MPV surprised me because it was ranked highly for years, ahead of the Odyssey in fact.

The 6, I've heard plenty of complaints, so that didn't really surprise me. Still, an equal amount of people love their 6s.

The MazdaSpeed version will be interesting, for sure.

-juice

uncledavid · November 2004

The MazdaSpeed version is going to be built in Japan and I'll bet it will be as realiable as each of the vehicles we are discussing in this thread, and it will also be competitive in terms of performance. But, I guess we'll have to wait to see.

checkitout · February 2005

IMO, ateixeira has asked a couple of good questions in trying to confirm your story.

It is not that we don't trust you but like Prez Reagan said, "trust but verify".

Nothing wrong with verifying, especially in the world wide net.

So please answer his questions/concerns: "please share the last 4 digits of your VIN, I'll have an SoA rep look up your case (if it's even true)... At least tell me the dealer, again I'll have an SoA rep look up 3 catastrophic engine failures all from a single dealer within a certain time frame."

Thanks in advance, Nelson

prefisso · February 2005

Funny - I thought I was going to read about Subarus and Acuras...

spiveygb · February 2005

Amen! So back on topic...I drove an '05 Outback LL Bean Edition this past weekend and I was definitely impressed. However, it seemed to me the transmission (auto) hesitated before upshifting. Subaru may have set it up so that it revved a bit higher before shifting but it was definitely noticeable when compared with my Passat. Although, the TSX is also rev happy and contributes to the "fun" factor, my impression is that the Acura transmission is a bit more refined in terms of shifting.

ateixeira · February 2005

Get the Legacy GT, really. It adds Sportshift buttons right on the steering wheel, so you regain control. Better yet get the manual.

The GT has a quicker steering ratio, lower profile tires, stiffer springs, less weight to haul around, and Sportshift controls. Plus it's cheaper!

The GT is the sporty one, the Outback is tuned to absord big speed bumps and to travel on gravel roads and snow.

So if you like the TSX' sporting personality, compare it to a GT, is what I'd recommend.

-juice

terryl · February 2005

Is anyone aware of changes planned for 2006 yet? Anyone know when the 2006 will be out?

Thanks!

Terry

c_hunter · February 2005

I have an Outback XT with the 5EAT, and my wife has a TSX (also 5 speed auto). Without doubt, the Subaru transmission is better.

You may have inadvertently put the transmission into sport mode, where it delays upshifts to higher RPMs and downshifts more quickly (personally, I like this mode better!). In normal mode, it shifts up at lower RPMs and is real hesistant to downshift unless you poke the throttle.

Subaru's 5EAT has three modes:

1) normal -- when you put the shifter in D

2) sport -- when you slide the shifter left from D (but don't do the +/- routine)

3) sport-shift -- where you actually do the +/- shifting.

I find sport mode to be the best, and it really makes the turbo engine shine. It is very impressive how quickly it can snap off upshifts under full throttle.

I find normal mode OK for leisurely driving. Finally, I find sportshift mode to be a lame replacement for real shifting (manual trans) and rarely ever use it.

As far as manual transmissions go, the Acuras win by a long shot here. I find the Subaru 5MT in the Outback/Legacy to be lacking in shifter accuracy and feel.

Craig

ateixeira · February 2005

2006s should be out this summer. One big addition should be a Nav option.

My wife fell in love with a dark blue GT Limited sedan at the Philly Show, and the only thing it doesn't have that she wants is Nav. So a 2006 for her would be perfect.

I'm not sure it's in our budget, but we may pick up a year-old used one in 2007.

-juice

bodble2 · February 2005

The GT looks sharp. Neighbour just got one in white. Wish they could do away with the boy-racer hood scoop though. Would they put the H6 in the GT, do you think? All else being equal, I prefer normally aspirated power.

ateixeira · February 2005

You're thinking Legacy Spec B. That's the H6 with a 6 speed manual now sold in Japan.

Nice thing is it gets bigger rims and an overall sportier package.

The turbo gives you a nice kick in the pants, though. I don't think the H6 would be as quick, perhaps more linear though.

There is a small chance that I'll get a chance to drive a Spec B that Subaru is bringing to the US for testing and evaluation. Hope so!

-juice

bodble2 · February 2005

I drove a H6 Outback and the GT, albeit briefly, during a Subie-sponsored test drive event, and I didn't notice any significant difference in acceleration -- neither one was as quick as my TL though, and both were a bit slow off the line. During the slalom, the GT, surprisingly, build boost fairly quickly during brake/throttle transitions.

bodble2 · February 2005

both were automatics. The steering wheel shift buttons were "neat", but I likely wouldn't use them much in real life, just like I almost never use the SS in the TL. However, I didn't know the Subie manumatic has a sport mode. Now that I might find useful.

c_hunter · February 2005

Believe it or not, the Legacy GT is a tick or two faster than the TL according to the car mags. They feel about the same in my opinion, but the TL gets handicapped by FWD and loses composure in some cases.

CRaig

bodble2 · February 2005

You mean comparing automatic to automatic? That's surprising 'cause the GT's engine didn't seem to pull as strongly. Maybe it was the initial lag off the line that made it feel slower.

ateixeira · February 2005

There's no doubt the manual tranny GT is quicker than the auto, but both have plenty of power.

C&D's Outback XT automatic (slowest/heaviest Subaru with the 2.5T engine) matches the manual TSX they tested in 0-60.

With auto I bet the TL is quicker, it has the advantage in displacment. But with the manual the GT would be quicker.

-juice

terryl · February 2005

No plans to upgrade the stereo? Has anyone successfully done this?

Tx.

Terry

ateixeira · February 2005

Stereo - IMO that's likely, actually. Why? Because the Tribeca is MP3 capable and has an Aux input if you get the 9" DVD.

That means Subaru is thinking about it. I bet we see at least one of those two upgrades.

I don't like proprietary radios, let the aftermarket offer choices that you can't! I've heard you can buy a blank face-plate from JDM models and fit any double-DIN stereo, though.

Both my current Subarus have a 6CD changer that I installed, and my Miata's CD skips so that is next!

-juice

terryl · February 2005

Thanks, Juice!

I haven't found any face-plates for the car yet but would be interested to know if anyone else has.

Terry

c_hunter · February 2005

The only faceplates available are from Japan, and do not work with the auto climate control system. They would only work on 2.5i (non Ltd) US models with manual climate control. And even then, it will take some work because the plate is arranged for RHD configurations.

It is not possible to install an aftermarket stereo in the center console of any model with auto climate control. The HVAC controls actually share a circuit board with the radio! Best you can do is put the radio somewhere else.

Craig

terryl · February 2005

Thanks, Craig. I am sure not audio electronics knowledgable but I do love car audio and this would be a compromise for me vs. the other two cars in this forum, esp. TL - as I consider purchasing LGT or TL. Can you or someone else please advise, is there much real upgrading that can occur if the deck remains unchanged but, for example, power is added, speakers changed, add sub, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

Terry

kens · February 2005

One other route some other LGT owners have taken is to have a crossover and amp system put in series with the stock HU. Basically, this system allows one to tap into the signal before it goes to the speakers.

I'm not very familiar with aftermarket setups, but I believe this would require professional installation.

Ken

terryl · February 2005

Thanks!

c_hunter · February 2005

None of these cars is easily/cleanly upgradeable as far as the head unit goes -- you'd really have to do everything downstream of the head unit regardless of which car you buy. Though the TL has a pretty good stock stereo as is. Actually, I don't have a major complaint about the stereo in my Outback XT (same as Legacy GT) and the stereo in my wife's TSX is OK too (could use better speakers though).

You can always add better speakers, but generally you'd need an amp to drive good ones. A lot of people add a line-out converter and them some amps to stock head units and get very good results. Actually, some amps can take speaker level inputs directly.

Craig

ateixeira · February 2005

Bad move by the industry, Taurus was among the first to use a proprietary radio size, and Ford got bitten so they changed it back to a standard size.

-juice

hox · February 2005

Considering a GT Limited Wagon purchase. Does anyone one have either a GT or XT with the subwoofer/amp option installed from the factory? Does it make much difference with the stereo? Even with that I know it won't match the TL's stereo.

Anyone know about 2006 upgrades???

Hox

ateixeira · February 2005

The factory sub is decent, WRX owners like theirs. It fits under the seat, and it's all pre-wired if you don't get a car that already has it.

The tweeters are also pre-wired and they work well.

IMO the stock speakers are not all that great, and would be the first item I'd replace with aftermarket parts if I were an audiophile.

-juice

mikeod · March 2005

I just found out my '02 5spd wagon has been totalled.

VEry bummed. How will the GT wagon compare. The 5 was too big and I want to spend less.

Will be looking at other options as well...

Thanks

ateixeira · March 2005

You want smaller and cheaper, it certainly meets those two criteria.

I'd sample a Legacy GT Limited, Infiniti G35, and a MazdaSpeed 6. EVO and STi are a bit extreme for daily use.

-juice

c_hunter · March 2005

The cars are NOT prewired for the under-seat sub! (none of the Subarus are). You have to run a harness from under the seat, through the console, and behind the radio. Not difficult, but time consuming. Running the harness is the majority of the job, the rest is cake.

Craig

ateixeira · March 2005

I stand corrected!

Didn't they used to be? I think my '98 is.

-juice

c_hunter · March 2005

They have been including the harness with the sub for as long as I can remember, so I don't think the cars were ever prewired (especially since sub harness tees into the main radio harness -- not something you'd want to do without a sub to connect on the other end).

Some people buy the subs on eBay minus the harness and they are basically screwed. I think it costs about $100 to order a replacement harness, while the full kit only costs $150 or so brand new!!

Craig

erickson00 · March 2005

I just spoke to a dealer at Subaru of Jacksonville (Florida), and he told me we'd have the 2006 models in late July, and that the navigation option is going to cost $2,500, plus a general $500 increase in the cost of the car.

I was waiting on a 2006 model, but I can't justify paying that much for something I wouldn't use much (just think it looks cool!).

krzyss · April 2005

and you do not need functionality you should be able to find cheap prop.
Or just frame a picture of Nav system at put it on dash.

Krzys

kevin111 · April 2005

Car and Driver - Manual GT, TL, TSX

GT - 5.7 seconds (same as a WRX)
TL - 5.8 seconds
TSX - ~7.3 seconds (have seen it a little bit higher in some mags as well)

Car and Driver - Auto GT, TL, TSX

GT - 7.0 (for outback turbo, but have seen 7.0 in other mags, and even slower in Consumer Reports)
TL - 6.3 seconds (CD, Consumer Reports reported around mid-to-upper 6s I believe - need to double check)
TSX - (~upper 8s), CR reported it at 9.5 seconds.

Conclusion - GT is about the same as a manual but slower in Auto than the TL. The TSX does not compete with either.

Mikeod - The Legacy GT will be faster and more nimble than your 525i.

ateixeira · April 2005

I doubt they're even finalized yet. The dealer is just saying that to try to get you to buy today.

But think about this - the 2006 Tribeca came out at $1200 less than the current Outback VDC. You really think they're going to increase prices by $500?

Heck no.

Also, they just announced Nav will cost $2000 on the Tribeca, so it should carry the same price (if not less) on a less expensive model.

So my guess it with Nav a 2006 will cost about $1800 more, and yes that might actually include a small price reduction.

What he's saying is "buy now else I might not make my quota".

-juice

bodble2 · April 2005

I'm curious about consumer reaction to the Tribeca, with that snout. :P

ateixeira · April 2005

Not really, but initially there was some shock. Subaru has generally been very conservative (read: boxy wagons) so reaction was strong.

As people began to see it in person, they liked it more. The infamous grille is not that big, just 12"x16", and it's slightly recessed. So in person it's not as prominent as the pictures make it look.

Just for fun I measured the Dodge Ram grille and it's more than 20"x50". Roughly 10 times bigger in area.

Pricing was aggressive and projected volume is small (40k/year) so it'll meet that goal easily.

-juice

uncledavid · April 2005

CR reported the TSX's time as 9.2 seconds, not 9.5. I honestly don't feel that time is that unrealistic.

I do think C & D's 7.3 seconds is a bit over optimistic though. Most other sources get close to 8 seconds.

I think the realy numbers are probably a less less than 8 second for the manual, and close to 9 for the automatic.

ateixeira · April 2005

CR drives it like your grandma would. Their times are the slowest for just about every car, especially manual trannies.

You might be able to compare it to C&D's 5-60 times, i.e. rolling start with no clutch slipping.

-juice

kevin111 · April 2005

Juice -
While CR times are usually slower than other magazine's times, they are generally more realistic. With this being said, what they were able to achieve is pretty fair 0-60 #s:

WRX STi - 5.2 (maybe 5.1, I forget, but the biggest difference of the group)
Evo - 5.3
350Z - 5.4
WRX - 6.2
RX8 - 6.7
S2000 - ~5.6 secs.

Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles