Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

ryanl1 · July 2004

Agree with all your posts as I favour the GT LTD, except choosing V6 Accord over TSX.The interior of TSX is better IMHO and exterior for that matter.You can't get side curtain airbags on Accord in the top of the line model in Canada for whatever reason...important with 2 kids in the back.

krzyss · July 2004

What happens to kids if the nap against window ?

I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations.

Krzys - having Passat with side curtain airbags remainding kids to not lean against sides

grove4 · July 2004

I dont think honda should skimp on airbags.the new legacys have side curtain airbags even in the base model,I believe.Your right the newer accord is kinda ugly to me too.The tsx is a nice looking car.It would be great if the tsx could get the smooth 240hp V6 out of the accord or a turbo 4,then the price would be right on at 27 or 28k.Really, the accords interior is pretty nice in its own right,the new legacy has nothing on it at all.The tsx has the high quality german look with that wood trim across the center of the dash wich to me is nicer than the new legacys.Its just the 4cylinder thats gotta go imo.

tsy · July 2004

I've now had my GT for a little over a week now, and I must say I am impressed. Since I have the MT I can't really comment on Turbo lag- there is almost none if you don't want it. ;-) It's a great engine. I love the FXT engine- it doesn't make sense but that car is fun to drive! The GT is the same way only much more refined. It's quiet, the interior is quite nice, and certainly better than anything in it's price range. The leather on the seats could be a little better quality. I would say the interior is not quite as nice as the TL, but then again $5000 can buy you quite a few cows!

I don't think the TSX is in the same league as these 2 cars, it's significantly underpowered (in comparison) and a little smaller. I think it's a very nice car, but more of a slightly shrunk Accord with a better engine (4cyl). I think I would choose the V6 Accord over the TSX though.

I think the TL is a great car, a little roomier inside, a little nicer (but you pay for it) and better warranty. I have a Garmin Streetpilot 2610 Nav that I can take from car to car that works quite well (as long as you stay out of tunnels- no dead reckoning- although that's available too) with the advantage of I can program a route into my computer at home and upload it into my streetpilot before my trip. You can't do that with your nav built into your car. But, once again, torque steer of 270 horses through the front wheels- the car should have been rear drive (or AWD?) to truly be of world caliber. On a day to day basis commuting, I think it's a great car, but not up to the performance of the Subaru.

Also, I have lived in the NE and now in Seattle, and I would much rather drive in snow in the NE than here. Lot's of hills, and they don't salt the roads. They only have 2 trucks putting sand on the road when it snows (very slight exaggeration). If you absolutely have to drive in the snow here, AWD is a huge plus. (it also handles better in the dry too!)

tom

gotenks243 · July 2004

"What happens to kids if the nap against window ?

I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations.

Krzys - having Passat with side curtain airbags remainding kids to not lean against sides "

If you're worried about what the airbags could do if the kids are near the window, shouldn't you be more worried about what the impact triggering the airbags would do? I'd rather have my head bang against a rapidly inflating airbag than shattering glass and the grille of the truck that t-boned me.

I'd be much more concerned about the kids leaning against the glass in a car without side curtains. You never know when an accident like that will occur.

Mike

mono · July 2004

I am trying to decide between the Legacy GT Ltd., Acura TL, and the new 277 hp Infiniti G35 sedan. I am only considering manual trans. for all of them. I am selling my 2000 Mustang GT 5 spd. in the spring for one of these cars. I now have a 15 mo. old son. I would consider myself a major car enthusiast and I like to modify cars. My mustang GT has lots of mods. and runs 13.5 in the ¼ mile. Im not trying to brag, Im just giving you an idea of how much I like fast cars. To the say the least, its been hard accepting the fact that my mustang is just not going to work as we wish to have another child soon. And I dont want to own three cars. The end result will have to be the sportiest family car I can buy for around $30K. I am looking for a sporty, but yet, refined driving experience. Oh, and more practicality too.

In summary, here is what I think so far after doing a lot of research (in no particular order):

Acura TL  nicest interior, great exterior looks, boring wheels, low torque, good highway MPG, smooth engine, FWD is a negative - torque steer, good sized back seat

2005 Infiniti G35  avg. interior, avg. exterior looks, 18 wheels standard on sport model, 270 ft.-lbs. tq., 277 hp., RWD is a plus, smooth engine, good highway MPG, zero torque steer, good sized back seat

2005 Legacy GT Limited  avg. interior and exterior looks, boring wheels, only a 5 speed, poor highway MPG, AWD is a plus, sweet engine, possible to upgrade hp. with STi modifications, different than most cars in its class, severely underrated, smallish back seat

If the Acura TL came in RWD and had more low-end tq., Id likely put down a deposit today. Acura needs to put an in-line 6 cyl in there. This is the best looking car of the bunch inside and out. I like how the 6MT also comes with Brembo brakes. Just to keep up with the hp. race, I bet Acura will bump up the hp. a bit for 2005. The FWD bugs me.

The G35s exterior looks are growing on me, but I am still not ready to pull the trigger on it. This is sports car oriented with its RWD platform.

Subaru really threw a wrench in there with their new Legacy GT. If I could find confirmation that more horsepower could be unleashed through the use of some STi like engine and exhaust modifications, this may the car for me. I like that its different and nobody gives it a chance. I do wish the back seat was larger, but I think it will work. Anything is better than my mustangs back seat.

Your thoughts?

grove4 · July 2004

I think you will find that the G35 and TL will be outperformed by the 2005 Legacy GT as soon as magazine comparisons begin.I am going by the fact that the same engine in a forester xt puts it to 60 in a car and driver reported 5.3 and the 1/4 in 13.8.Right on the heals of your hopped up mustang.The Legacy may have more power than the xt,according to subaru it does but its common knowledge that the xt is underrated at 210hp.Just maybe the G35 will outhandle the Legacy I dont know though,probobly close call.Certainly not the TL.As far as upgrades it is pretty much endless.Word is that the Legacy is already very close to sti components and it wont take much to uncork the rest.All are great cars and if you want more luxery I would go with the acura.It would also have the most back seat room for the kids.It will also cost you another 5k.Imagine what 5k would do to the Legacy's performance though.

ateixeira · July 2004

GT is slightly quicker than the XT. It's lighter and the suspension and tires are more sporting.

It also has quicker steering and bigger front brake rotors. Those shopping for performance should go straight to the GT model.

grove: keep in mind the TL is bigger than the Legacy. Subaru is coming out with a full-size sedan, though.

Kevin: real wood on the new Subies? On the Momo steering wheels, yes. On the dash, no, it's plood.

Accord over TSX? Nah, it just doens't have the sporting intentions, you can't even get a manual with the sedan. If I was shopping for an automatic for my family, maybe I'd prefer the Accord, but let me pick a manual and I'd pick the TSX between those two for the fun-to-drive quotient.

mono: the turbo powertrain will be, by far, the easiest to modify for extra power. Even low budget mods produce noticeable results. And the AWD could put the extra power down.

If you want something *really* special Subaru is contemplating a Legacy STi, and rumor has it we'd see a turbo or even twin-turbo H6, probably 3l or more with 350hp or so.

It would go for about what a high-end TL costs.

-juice

kevin111 · July 2004

If you are strictly looking for a car that can be worked on, I would suggest the Legacy. With so many upgrades for the WRX, it is only a matter of time before there are upgrades for the Legacy. I believe Cobb is already working on chip-reflashes and turbo-back exhausts.

Finally, Turbos have been known to be very mod-friendly. More so than non-boosted engines.

I am sure there will be upgrades for the TL and the G35 eventually, but the GT will most likely be the most mod-friendly. Finally, the AWD should be able to support the extra power over FWD and RWD formats. Extra power in the FWD format scares me a little without modding the car heavily.

If you are looking for comfort as well, the TL is king.

If you are looking for a compromise between the two, then the G35 is your car.

Juice - the fake-wood inserts on the center console LOOKED real!

With the TSX vs. the Accord - Agree with Juice on sedan vs. sedan. Take the Accord Coupe with the sports package and manual, and we have a whole new ballgame! 0-60 in under 6 secs! Also, solid handling if not quite up to par with the TSX.

ateixeira · July 2004

Sure does, and I bet most manufacturers use plastic for durability's sake.

-juice

mono · July 2004

I have a hard time believing the Forester XT does the 1/4 mi. in 13.8 sec. That's a 3500 lb. vehicle with 250 hp. Are you sure about that?

mono · July 2004

That would be awesome. However, it will probably look like a rally car which at this point in my life, I don't think I'd want to drive around in.

I wish I just purchase the STi engine, drivetrain wheels/tires and brakes as options on the Legacy. That would be perfect.

grove4 · July 2004

Positive about that.Anyone on these boards will tell you or else go to caranddriver.com if you want and search forester xt.

grove4 · July 2004

Forgot,that the forester weighs less than 3500.I think more like 3250 but not sure on the exact number.

ateixeira · July 2004

Yeah, it's a lot lighter than that, 3210 lbs per the brochure.

Subaru actually replaced steel with aluminum on the hood, the hatch, the roof rails, and the front and rear bumper beams.

The Forester XT also has very short gearing, with a final drive of 4.7:1. Other Foresters use a 4.1:1 final drive.

-juice

ryanl1 · July 2004

"What happens to kid if they nap against window?"

Actually I don't have kids but a toddler and an infant coming and they are strapped in car seats (a legal necessity in Canada) so they wouldn't be able to lean against the window.

"I think side curtain airbags are not all that safe in all situations"

No side curtain airbags would be even less safer.

ryanl1 · July 2004

G35 "Good highway MPG" vs GT "Poor highway MPG"...I thought there was hardly any difference?

mono · July 2004

highway - 25 mpg - Legacy GT
highway - 27 mpg - G35
highway - 30 mpg - Acura TL

All in manual transmission.

It's clear the Legacy must have a higher final drive ratio because the 4 cyl. engine and likely the the lighest vehicle of the bunch gets the worst MPG.

I know several TL owners seeing 30 MPG with the automatic trans. as well.

Heck, my Mustang has twice the engine cylinders to feed and it rated at 17/24.

mono · July 2004

Forester XT - the gearing and weight make sense. I had no idea it had gearing like that.

Anyone know what the Legacy GTs are going to weigh? If they are close in weight to the Forester XT and they get 40 more ponies, they should be real quick. It will depend on the gearing somewhat, but based on the low MPG ratings, it likely has short gearing as well.

grove4 · July 2004

The Forester xt is underated.It wont be a 40hp difference.

ateixeira · July 2004

You gotta account for the AWD.

GT curb weight is 3300 for a base sedan up to 3500 for a Limited wagon. And yes they are also geared short.

I don't think any of these can be called economical, don't they all burn premium fuel?

-juice

mono · July 2004

I agree, none of them are economical. I was just hoping for better MPG out of a 4 cyl. Yes, I do believe all of them require premium fuel.

Subaru's website lists the Legacy GT Limited at 3365lbs. in manual trans. mode. However, they don't provide the final drive ratio.

All the vehicles probably require short gearing to help get the engine into the high rpms. quicker as that's where the power is.

Why would Subaru underate the horsepower numbers on the Forester XT? Wouldn't a high number help sales in today's market?

c_hunter · July 2004

For one thing, Subaru probably did not want to overshadow the WRX's 227HP (even though we all know that a Forester XT can pretty easily take a WRX off the line).

Craig

ateixeira · July 2004

If you group it with 4 cylinders then the MPG sounds bad. But if you group it with other engines that perform similary, it blows them out of the water, even with AWD.

It's a large 4 cylinder, I've owned V6s that were smaller (my 626 was a 2.5l, Mazda even made a 1.8l V6 at one point). So it's not a small engine by any means.

Add AVCS and the turbo and it doesn't behave like a small engine, either.

Yes, Subaru did not want the Baja turbo and Forester turbo to beat the WRX in HP for marketing purposes. But on the dyno, the 2.5T easily bests the 2.0T in both torque and HP. It also has a flatter curve.

-juice

ryanl1 · July 2004

I forgot you were comparing non awd G35 vs awd GT,but I was thrown off when you put TL and G35 in same gas mileage category and you went from good to poor in one step.If you know how many miles you drive per year the difference in cost is negligible.As many have stated already the insurance cost is more important to compare...I don't have numbers for you though.

ateixeira · July 2004

Also, I think the G35x only comes in an automatic.

Infiniti makes you pull your hair out in frustration. First they had no manuals at all, then they finally get them, but again not on the AWD models. Ugh.

-juice

buddhabman · July 2004

In Japan and Europe there have been several tuner Legacies on the previous generation models. All have been in good taste for mature adults. Check out the Blitzen Legacys or the B-Spec Legacies. The wildest one I have seen was a Tommy Kairu model. Check out the Subaru Global STi site.

http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/e/index.html

http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/news/040713.html

http://www.subaru.co.jp/movie/

mono · July 2004

Yes, AWD G35's only come in automatic.

The RWD 6MT with 277 hp. 270 tq. for 2005 is going to a fast G35. It will be hard not to take a hard look at this one. It also has a larger interior and gets better MPG than the Legacy.

ateixeira · July 2004

A contender for real. Very nice.

I do think Infiniti could improve on the interior a bit, it's not really what you expect from an upscale make. I'd say it's about where Nissan should be.

Minor nit pick on a great car, though.

-juice

kevin111 · July 2004

See them on the street already.

bodble2 · July 2004

What's the difference from the '04 visually?

ateixeira · July 2004

Any interior updates? Other Nissans got some.

-juice

ryanl1 · July 2004

g35 out already?Not expected until September up here unless g35 comes out before g35x?
I've got gas mileage numbers for you:

         litres used/100 km
         city hwy

tl 11.6 7.6 (acura.ca)
gt man. 12.4 8.6 (brochure)
   auto 12.3 8.6
g35 man. 11.9(24mpg) 8.1(35mpg)
    auto 12.8(22mpg) 8.4(34mpg)
    awd 13.5(21mpg) 9.1 (31mpg) (infiniti.ca)

sorry about using metric system but tl is clearly better as it burns 7.6 litres/100km vs g35 8.1 and gt 8.6.Notice there is a 0.5 litres/100km difference between each car.Say you drive 10,000 miles per year=16,000 kilometres per year.Your car burns 0.5 litres/100km x 16000 km=80 litres more per year x $1 cdn= $80 dollars cdn more per year!
I was cross shopping g35x vs gt and I knew g35x had worse gas mileage reputation as seen above 9.1 litres/100km vs gt 8.6 litres/100km.

Happy shopping

ryanl1 · July 2004

Is it true tl and gt don't have back seats that fold down in order to increase torsional rigidity and it wasn't just a cost saving measure as dealers have been saying? tsx have them but g35 has them as an optional premium package.

Why is freight and pdi $1300 cdn on gt,$1250 cdn on g35,but only $950 cdn on tl,tsx even though tsx is made in Japan and all the rest in U.S.A.?
Is it just a shifting of numbers that manufacturers like to play with v.s. MSRP?

ateixeira · July 2004

The Legacy sedans' back seats do not fold, but the wagons' seats do. IIRC there is a pass-through for skis.

I wouldn't really care much since my kids' safety seats are always buckled down.

Freight charges make no sense to me. IIRC the Neon had a $500 freight while some Japanese-made Civics were $390.

-juice

kevin111 · July 2004

At least I think they are 2005s since the front face and front spoiler is different. Even though none of the dealers are showing '05s on their websites.
Looks similiar to the '04s. Supposedly the interior was updated, but not much (looks very similiar to the '04). The biggest news is the power bump.

grove4 · July 2004

BMW does the same thing option wise for the rear seat fold down.I believe it is b/c the factory adds torsional rigidity somewhere else in the car to make up for it.Could be that subaru just doesnt want the extra cost so we dont have a choice.I thought I would use it in a 2003 "rusty" Mazda6 I got out of, but I really didnt use it.The pass trough is really all I need anyway.

bodble2 · July 2004

I too, only need the ski pass-thru 95% of the time. The may be the odd time where I may need to fold down the seat to carry something bulky, but to be honest, in a sedan fold-down seats aren't all that useful.

I was disappointed the Subie Outback will not have a ski pass-thru, or better yet, the 40/20/40 seat ala Volvo XC70.

ateixeira · July 2004

I think sedans aren't all that useful.

I'd like to see the TSX wagon here, Europe has one. I think there is a wagon version of the G35 as well.

A Legacy wagon can carry about 4 times the cargo compared to the Legacy sedan. The seats fold flat. Roof rails are standard and that extends capacity even more. You get nice struts holding up the lift gate instead of gooseneck hinges on the sedan.

The wagon is soooo much better. Subaru is a wagon specialist, really.

The Outback has roof rails and even standard cross bars. That makes it easy to put the skis on the roof, they even sell clamps to bolt on all Yakima accessories (they relabel Yakima stuff as Subaru OE).

All the sedans here lack the roof rack. I don't want wet skis inside my car...

-juice

mono · July 2004

I really dont think the 2005 G35s are on the street yet, but I suppose I could be wrong. I thought September too.

The big changes are the under the hood. G35 Sedans will see 17 more horsepower and 10 more ft.-lbs. of torque at the peaks. There are some minor interior updates as well. An 18 wheel package is also available. Minor changes to the front and rear of the car took place too. I think the Coupes are going to be near 300 hp. in manual trans. form with a 19 wheel package available. Id love a coupe, but it just doesnt suit my family needs right now.

I like that this car is RWD. Leaving a Mustang GT for a family sports sedan is tough enough, but at least this car is still RWD. RWD is the true sports car form. It will just suck in the winter. AWD is nice too, but you cant have as much fun with it - no fishtails. I like to turn corners in my Mustang and give it a little gas. This kicks the rear end out just a bit. Its fun, but not something I do with other cars around and never on a wet road.

ryanl1 · July 2004

You guys are rignt.Fold down seats in sedans don't do much good with a fixed trunk,that's why Mazda 6 sport hatchback is the logical choice for someone with only 1 car who doesn't want wagon,suv.I was just wondering which was the truth cost savings or torsional rigidity.
I'll just use my wife's crv to haul non-explosives.

ateixeira · July 2004

G35 coupe is drop-dead gorgeous. Somehow it looks a lot better than the sedan.

AW readers picked it over the BMW3 as America's best coupe.

Leaving a Mustang, check out the 300C sedan, which is popular with the Hemi, and cylinder deactivation actually keeps it relatively efficient.

But...you certainly can fish tail in a Subaru if you want to. With the 5 speed manual, the default power split is 50/50, I have this on my Forester and even 165hp is enough to get the tail out in tight turns, very easy in the wet or in snow. And the AWD actually pulls you out of the skid so it's safe.

I have a Miata, and while it is easier to get the tail out, it's far harder to control. The Forester is safe and fun.

Auto Legacy GTs actually send even more power to the rear axle - 45/55 is the default split. They too can get the tail out under power in a turn.

-juice

bodble2 · July 2004

I like the new Outback a lot. But regarding cargo capacity, the "true" capacity is really the area under the retractable cover, would you agree? If you pack the wagon up to the rafter, it would affect rear visibility, plus your stuff would be exposed to prying eyes. So if you're carrying 4 passengers, I'm not sure if there is a significant difference in "useable" cargo space between wagon and sedan.

And, juice, I know you're an expert on Subarus. Do you know if the factory security alarm for the Legacy/Outback offers protection for the hood, or if there is a dealer-installed upgrade for that? Or about aftermarket alarms? Some manufacturers, (ie. Honda), discourage using aftermarket alarms, citing potential conflict with the car's electrical system.

ateixeira · July 2004

I think even then it's bigger than the Legacy sedan's. The wagon is boxier in the back.

And if you're taking home a big TV, you're likely going straight home so thieves aren't really an issue. If you have the turbo engine what's behind you will just fade away. ;-)

Wish I had one, but I think there are a couple of OE alarm options, including a motion sensor of some sort.

-juice

bodble2 · July 2004

"And if you're taking home a big TV, you're likely going straight home so thieves aren't really an issue."

You're absolutely right about that. I guess I was thinking more in terms of packing stuff for a vacation.

bodble2 · July 2004

Not only has Subaru moved the Legacy/Outback upmarket, they have done likewise with the brouchures! I got the brouchures in the mail yesterday, and they are 40-page jobs that rival the ones from MB, Audi, BMW. They look great on my coffee table!

kevin111 · July 2004

Juice, despite your assertions, they both have their advantages. With that said, does the TSX or the TL have either a pass through or fold-down seats? Just curious.

BTW - ryan1 - I would have to agree with you about the Mazda6 Hatch. It is a really good idea. Looks and acts like a sedan, with cargo carrying advantages of a wagon (though not as roomy as the wagon.

mono · July 2004

I agree, the G35's coupes are better looking than the sedans. I prefer the coupe, but I don't need to go from one two-door car (Mustang GT) to another. It doesn't help my issue of getting kids in the backseat.

I don't care for the looks of the 300C, but good thought.

How do the new Legacy's GT sound from an exhaust perspective? I have to admit, I am going to really miss the deep rumble of my V8 engine. And I am not one of those guys with a crazy loud mustang exhaust that you typically see (not that there's anything wrong with it). My car has a Bassani X pipe and a Borla cat-back exhaust. It's very loud at wide open throttle, but has a nice mild rumble when just driving normal.

I am concerned the 4 cyl Legacy engine is going to sound like a sportbike. At least the G35 has 3.5 liters of displacement and 6 cyl. The larger displacement and extra 2 cyl will deepen the sound over a 4 cyl engine with a liter less in displacement.

At the end of the day, I know neither car will sound like a V8 Mustang. I just don't want the high-pitched motorcycle engine sound coming from my car. I used to have a Honda Prelude and while the engine screamed at 7000 rpms from inside the car, I thought the exhaust sounds weak from outside the car. And I hate the sound of those coffee can mufflers I often see on honda civics. Remember, it's just my preference so don't anyone become offended.

c_hunter · July 2004

are a function of the firing pattern and exhaust system design, not engine size/displacement. I have heard numerous Subaru Boxer 4-cyl engines (including the one on my WRX with the Prodrive muffler) that sound better than most V8 or V6 engines. Similarly, V-10 engines with dual exhaust sound horrible even if they have a huge displacement. It's the way the pistons fire and how the exhaust pulses sound (by the way, an H-pipe connector will solve the V-10 problem for the most part).

The exhaust on the Legacy GT is pretty restrained, but it still sounds great. After market mufflers would likely make it sound even better.

Craig

allaboutme1 · July 2004

My two cents. All three cars have similairities. They are all sporty, sophisticated/ luxurious and practicle.

I would rank the TL as the most luxurious. Great gadgets between the bluetooth, DVD-A and the interior and exterior styling is the best of the three. That said I found the car unbalanced and expensive.

The Legacy GT is the most practicle. Its AWD and a wagon and with a 2 dogs and three kids its the car I should get. Its drivability is good but I didn't love the manual (not slick) and the engine wasn't bad but not as powerful as i expected. Interior and exterior styling improved but not as good as the others.

The TSX is the most drivable. Great slick 6 spd manual, excellent suspension and high reving engine. Inerior styling nice, exterior somewhat bland and not anywhere near as practicle as the subaru.

I am still going forward with the TSX. I should probably opt for the subaru due to its great value and practicality but for me i rank driveability as top priority.

Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

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