Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

mirth · June 2005

I'd be sure to give them $1,000 worth of pain for their scam. This posting was a good start.

On the other hand, the dealer would probably be happy to give you your $1000 back and then sell the car for $2000-3000 over MSRP. Face it - the 400H is in huge demand and there's a price to pay to be the first on the block. If you don't like it, then either a) don't buy the car, or b) buy somewhere else. I have a feeling you won't get a better deal though...

otis1 · June 2005

I agree with you (mirth) to a point. a "fair" price depends on the market, how much the next dealer is selling for, how much work you're willing to put it to get a lower price... on and on....

but if the dealer said "pay $1000 DEPOSIT to get in line and pay MSRP," then the buyer was ripped off. if the dealer said "Pay $1000 for the PRIVLEDGE to get in line and pay MSRP," then all is "fair." (it happens on ebay all the time) If the dealer said the 2nd line last year, then the buyer could have shopped around at a different dealer. If the dealer said the 1st line, and the dealer changes the deal on him, then what can he do today? he'll have to get on the end of another list or pay $2000 to get the car now at another dealer. if this was the case, then it's a dirty tactic.

mirth · June 2005

...lead to my suggestion of b) buy somewhere else.

stevedebi · June 2005

Unless the dealer had give written notice that this deposit was to be forfeited, I think that you would have an excellent chance of getting a judgement in small claims court. Normal practice in the industry is to take a deposit and include that amount in any renumeration paid for the vehicle.

Take 'em to court - no lawyer needed, just bring in your deposit slip and the paperwork from your deal. I would also write a letter to the dealer protesting their action, be sure and get a return receipt, and wait a couple of weeks. If the dealer doesn't respond or fails to deliver satisfaction, you will probably get your $$ back from the judge.

I you do take them to court, request that the judge also add money to the judgement to compensate for your time, costs, and mental anguish. Small claims court will handle cases where no more than $5000 is involved, so keep the amount requested below 5 grand.

tomslyck · June 2005

I like Stevedebi's idea of small claims court. You might have to show that losing your place in line would cause some damage, though. Good luck.

mirth · June 2005

The problem is not proving whether the deposit was refundable or not, it's proving that the dealer agreed to sell the car for (MSRP-the deposit). I'd be surprised if that's in any paper form - they probably just told them "MSRP". In short, the person has already bought the car and driven it away, so it's pretty much a done deal. If they had really been upset about this they would have aborted the entire transaction. Methinks that a lawsuit would be a lesson in futility at this point...

stevedebi · June 2005

"The problem is not proving whether the deposit was refundable or not, it's proving that the dealer agreed to sell the car for (MSRP-the deposit)."

No, I disagree, the point is that the deposit should have been applied to whatever price was paid, and according to the original post, they basically forfeited the deposit - it was not applied to the purchase price.

It the dealer wanted to inflate the purchase price by $1000, then I could see your point, but that is not what the person said. Perhaps that is what they meant. But in any case, that $1000 should have either been refunded, or clearly applied to the purchase price. That $1000 belongs to the purchaser unless it has been clearly accounted for and documented. Common industry practice would indicate it should have been taken out of whatever amount became the agreed sales price.

Take 'em to small claims court. If you have some questions, ask a lawyer; it is worth the $100 or so for an hour of his/her time to give you a legal opinion.

mirth · June 2005

...the deal was simply shown as MSRP+1000. We don't know.

Again, the person bought the car and has been driving it. I doubt a judge would force the dealer to refund anything. As far as the lawyer goes, it's a $100 just to find out whether court is a good idea, plus whatever your time is worth. If it is a good idea, it'll be a lot more than that. Even if they won, they'd probably end up netting about $100. Not worth the aggravation. Chalk it up to experience, don't buy from these guys again, and move on.

stevedebi · June 2005

"As far as the lawyer goes, it's a $100 just to find out whether court is a good idea, plus whatever your time is worth. If it is a good idea, it'll be a lot more than that. Even if they won, they'd probably end up netting about $100."

Well, you don't use lawyers in small claims court - you represent yourself. I was just suggesting that the lawyer be consulted as to the law, before proceeding on the claim. If the judge approved a settlement, I imagine that lawyers fee could be part of the judgement.

RE: Already bought the car.

Doesn't matter, if the dealer did something illegal or contrary to normal practice, they may be liable. By that logic, if someone stole my wallet and I waited a day to tell police, the thief couldn't be prosecuted...

mirth · June 2005

What was illegal? The person signed the papers and drove away with the car. Whatever happened before that is irrelevant. They could have gotten their deposit back and gone elsewhere. Until the contract was signed, money paid, and the car was driven away, there was no legally binding deal, so I think court would be a waste of time and money. Here's how I see it going in court:

Plaintiff: "He said the deposit would go towards the price."

Defendant: "No we didn't your honor."

Judge: "It is vague here...wait, you bought the car for the dealer's price?"

Plaintiff: "Yes sir, but it wasn't fair."

Judge: "Boo hoo. Next case."

stevedebi · June 2005

"Until the contract was signed, money paid, and the car was driven away, there was no legally binding deal, so I think court would be a waste of time and money."

Yes, the person signed the papers, but the $1000 was not clearly listed in the paperwork. This is a dealer error, not the buyer. Paperwork would rule - if the deposit is clearly indicated in the paperwork. Additionally, there are such things as legally binding oral agreements, often based on customary practices. Here is my interpretation:

Judge: "What happened to the $1000?"
Defendant:"We kept the money."
Judge:"Was the money applied to the purchase price?"
Defendant:"No."
Judge: "Was the plaintif told that the money would not be creditied towards a purchase? Anything in writing?"
Defendant:"No."
Judge: "I find for the plaintiff. Defendant to refund the $1000 plus an additional $2000 for pain and suffering. "

It doesn't cost much to go to small claims court.

tomslyck · June 2005

Whether you win or lose, the aggravation that it causes the dealership would be a plus. Then there's always the possibility that they'd just refund the money to avoid the hassle. They know that most customers won't bother.

gagrice · June 2005

It is probably worth the filing fee to annoy the dealer. I would send them a certified letter stating that you are going to sue them. That gives them one last chance to make it right. It is a long shot but they did take advantage of some one attacked by the "hybrid bug".

molokai · June 2005

Yes.. I understand that bug is going around. What are you taking for it Gary? A full dose of Edmunds usually helps!

Kirstie_H · June 2005

This discussion is about hybrid vehicles and not about other members.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

oldjoe · July 2005

ADP on any commodity is not illegal in any state. MSRP is only a corporate number, if scarcity, reputation, hype or whatever means that a customer pays more than MSRP, then so be it. In early 2004 Escape Hybrids in some markets were getting $5,000 in ADP over MSRP and "deposits" were required. In other cases now, Escape Hybrids are sitting unsold in dealer's lots...Washington DC was a quoted area. The HOVs were closed to one person Hybrid Escapes and demand disintegrated. It has been reported that one Washington area dealer has 5 units sitting in the lot.

Escape Hybrids ruin many thousands of dollars more than a regular Escape with all the rebates and dealer discounts...Escape hybrids have little discounts from MSRP...if any.

In our society "Let the buyer beware" is a good consumer watchword. However, I did not follow my own rule lately I took a new Chevy Impala back to the dealer and got my money back last month when the "Employee" price turned out to be a hoax at the particular dealer where I bought the Impala. I e-mailed Chevrolet and had a phone call from a Chevrolet investigator on a Sunday afternoon. the dealer gave me all of my money back and the GMAC contract was canceled... it can be done if you have a reasoned and temperate argument. Remember that the dealer's are wholly independent auto resellers and do not have a standard set of "rules".

Hybrids are more expensive to buy than the equivalent gasoline models and most drivers will never recover their extra purchase price... somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 miles. Right now the hybrids are a very expensive toy that appeals to people with a lot of money to burn, those who want to experiment with a new technology and those who want to be Green. Currently it is a niche market and interesting to all consumers, but not many at the current premium prices for hybrid models. It will be a couple of years before prices make a hybrid a good economical bargain. The Escape/Mariner hybrids have a very small towing capacity ...the same as a regular 4 dr car such as a Chevy Impala 6-cylinder or Honda Accord 4-cylinder, so towing with an Escape Hybrid may be a bit impractical except for a U-Haul trailer, a 10m ft small pop[-up camper or a small boat trailer..

I finally wound up with an Accord 4 cylinder (no hybrid) that gives me 30-35 MPG at 65-75 MPH...maybe next time for me if hybrids are still offered. The 700 lb additional weight and 5-6 thousand dollar battery replacement costs have to bee solved first.

Why do Honda Accords have so much appeal and so little discount, well one thing stands out, fit and finish of my 23005 Accord is impeccable and makes my FWD 2002 Escape V6 look and feel like it was assembled by a totally inept Ford manufacturing management/worker team... yet both are assembled here in the United States..

molokai · July 2005

Very correct regarding the "additional markup". I don't believe hybrids are for people that have cash to burn. I purchased my fully loaded Prius for under 26k. I have saved quit a bit of money over the Liberty I used to own. The Prius gets over 3 times as muich mileage as the Liberty did. I have more bells and whistles and NO, I don't have to worry about a battery pack replacement. Mine is warranted for 150,000 miles. IMHO I am laughing all the way to the bank. As far as the Impala is concerned, I really don't like the styling of that car. The only GM car I love is the Solstice. Enjoy your Accord. It should give you years of good service.

m2inor · July 2005

I just picked up my RX400h yesterday.

$1000 deposit placed in May 2005 on my credit card.

At closing yesterday, the deposit was credited back to my credit card. I wrote check for partial down-payment, and after credit for my trade, financed the rest.

When I asked why the deposit was not used in the total payment, business manager said that this was just the way they did things to comply with the lending practices of the credit union.

In any case, no problem, as I got my deposit back with no muss or fuss.

Just wish they would have let me pay partially by credit card for the FF miles. No issue for me since I don't carry a balance.

Oh, I paid MSRP; no dealer mark-up.

Mike

gagrice · July 2005

Just wish they would have let me pay partially by credit card

The dealers like the security of having a deposit from the CC company. If they credit back to the CC they do not have to pay a percentage. They want all the money, and your check is better than that CC charge.

falconone · July 2005

Amex gives back full credit, but Visa and MC do not. I used to own a business and I hated that aspect of credit card acceptance. A cost of doing business.

railroadjames · July 2005

To say I disagree is an understatement! First, a base model Prius (well equipped) I bought at MSRP was $20,685.00. That, to me, is well within the price range of most cars I investigated (Nissan, Honda,Mazda). You call hybrids "toys". You obviously have little knowledge of them. Mine seats 5 reasonably with comfort, has a large Rr trunk area with loads of storage and flip down Rr seats. 50 plus mileage is great. Transmittion wonderful(no jerks w/one gear'g), drastically reduced emissions and a great warrantee that covers the hybrid items for 8 yrs & 100K. You spoke battery and costs as if that were an expected replacement item when the cars have been on the market for a considerably long time (over 10 yrs). Projected costs are to come down drasticaly as most electronic items do over time (look @ digital cameras). Due to the awards and accolades from so many critics the car's reputation and Toyota's indicate that RESALE status is solid and will retain market value. The car is not for all purposes BUT it defintely is popular for those seeking a car for the future TODAY. I can't help but wonder why criticisem about a difference of a few hundred dollars cost for a special and premium car would deter anyone from that purchase. Again ...my Prius is no "TOY!!" By the way ...I've had her well over 100MPH and she was rock solid.
Railroadjames
P.S. One last thing...Ever see what a replacement exhaust sys. costs or the A/C on an Accord...Megga Bucks. So none of the cars escape the high costs of primary item replacement on those cars..

mirth · July 2005

...then we gotta worry about the Prius exhaust system, A/C, AND battery, but just the exhaust system and A/C on the Accord.

I think there are very legitimate long-term concerns about the hybrid batteries as they start cranking out more and more of them. Not a big deal if you buy a new hybrid today, but the next decade will be telling...

molokai · July 2005

Those are systems that need to be looked at on every car, not just the Prius. The systems unique to the Prius are another story. One nice thing is that the Prius does NOT have a transmission, but instead has a Power Split Device (PSD). Much less moving parts than a conventional transmission. With respect to the battery, they are warranted in Cal/NY/MA/VT and another state (?) for 150,000 miles and 100,000 elsewhere. It is safe to say the batteries most likely will outlive the car.

oldjoe · July 2005

The light "toys" are making the occupants extremely at risk in an accident...the laws of physics haven't been repealed. I agree that the hybrids are not for everyone. They are a great bargain in day-to-day gasoline costs if you drive in an urban setting all the time. Highway mileage is no better than a regular gasoline engine.

Voluntary Emergency assistance crews still have a lot of problems with how or if they should approach a hybrid vehicle involved in an accident. Ford issues theri Hybrid trained mechanics a 10 foot fiberglass pole in case a trained mechanic gets "hung up" while servicing the Hybrid!

Costs can be prohibitive for a Hybrid -- example the Ford Escape. A similarly equipped non-hybrid Escape can cost up to $10,000 less than a hybrid Escape (same equipment). Those costs are prohibitive for a family without a lot of money to throw away and hence are a "high-cost" alternative transportation. Recovery costs for those hybrids would reach equality at approximately 250,000 miles. There is no free lunch and the hybrids prove that. The emissions of my Honda are the same as the hybrids, so hybrids so-called advantages will be flattened in the future.

You can easily go to Europe and see all the small cars that purport to "stuff" 5 people in them and get great mileage...and their highway mileage is 40-50 MPG on either gasoline or diesel. VW Rabbit diesels used to get 50-55 MPG, I don't know if VW Golf diesels still do.

And, of course, the CVT transmission was used on the Netherlands DAF autos in the 1950s (tiny like your Prius). The USA loved it and put it in our snowmobiles for years...will it last like our regular transmissions will?

Oh and of course, keeping the engine constantly at a high RPM to get maximum torque is an old trick, we used to do it with every tractor I ever saw on our and neighbor farms some 50-60 years ago...helps in plowing or discing soft ground.

So hybrids married all of these old techs, of course their battery packs use batteries that need to use a tremendous amount of fossil fuel energy to create in ther first place.

then the sales and marketing divisions hired the hype writers and called it Tomorrows technology Today...NOT!

Do me a favor, before you take your Prius up tp 100MPH again, go to the church of your choice and say a prayer. Driving like that is just asking for trouble.

molokai · July 2005

I guess you never have driven a Prius or have done much research on the subject. FIrst off, the Prius does not have a conventional transmission. It has a power split device which is really not a CVT, but for simplicity sake, they call it that anyway. I have no idea where the issue of going 100 MPH came about, but I don't care what car you're in, any accident at that speed can be deadly. Just today six young people died in a Dodge Neon in upstate NY and they were going 95 MPH. The Prius weighs close to 3000 pounds and has a five star safety rating for the driver according to US testing. In European testing it was exemplary as well. Do you get 50 MPG in your Honda at 65 MPH? I seriously doubt it. Only hypermilers can achieve such lofty goals. I don't even have to put any effort into it. Meanwhile, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. In just a year and a have I've saved over $2500 in fuel (comparing to my 02 Jeep Liberty). The overall effect on the environment even with battery production is BETTER than a conventional vehicle. The truth is hard to swallow... ain't it ??

railroadjames · July 2005

I agree with you (molokai) and I find it hard to fathum why oldjoe and others can fabricate falsehoods and subtle negitives when so many other knowledgable critics have nothing but raves over the 2nd generation Prius and also many of the several other hybrids on the market. I feel that WE Prius owners have to keep the experienced owners words out there.
As to the question about the "Batteries" WE owners know that they work at only a fraction of their capacity and that adds to their longevity. The only question I see is the timetable to see if these hybrids live up to their great track record as of now. Yes, time will tell and if Toyota's Hybrids continue to maintain their high level of quality & durability. I'm totally satisfied with 24K and nary a problem while averaging 50 plus miles per gallon.
Oh to oldjoe I knew you'd throw criticism toward me over going over 100 mph. I never meant to imply that I made a habit of that kind of vigor. I meant only to imply that by testing my vehicle's limits I know what they are and what they are not. Lastly, I have one criticism of my Prius ...When you build a car to be roomy and functional it tends to be subject to "Cross-Winds" You can't necessarily have it all so they say. All in all I again say ..."Dollar for Dollar the Prius delivers quite alot. DRIVE ONE and see.

falconone · July 2005

Agree with both the previous posts and I'm going to buy an '06 when it comes out. I've driven one a few times and really loved it. It truly is a FUN car to drive. It is amazing how some folks are so ambivalent about this technology! It reminds me of the same people that were scared of the automobile when it first came out. They were TERRIFIED of the horseless carriage. Get used to it people.. the auto industry is going to have to evolve if we are to become less dependent on fossil fuels. Hybrids are only the beginning and I am proud to be what I consider a pioneer on a new frontier.

railroadjames · July 2005

Glad to see you've done a good deal of homework and having test driven the Prius you too "See The Light." Three Cheers to you and the road will be a thriftier one to travel. Way to Go.
Railroadjames.

falconone · July 2005

Thanks for your encouraging words. I am seeing more and more Prius on the road where I live and I can't wait to get mine. My first choice is white, it looks really cool in that color especially with tinted windows. Enjoy the ride James!!!! TOOT TOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mirth · July 2005

It is safe to say the batteries most likely will outlive the car.

That's what I'm a little worried about. If we start cranking out millions of hybrids, how are we going to dispose of all those big batteries, which are more than a little toxic? Just interested in your thoughts.

Again, I agree that if you buy a Prius new, battery replacement is not a big worry. But if you buy it used without the big warranty, it could be a major issue. Which of course could affect your resale when you go to sell it 5-7 years from now.

molokai · July 2005

Toyota has a specific recycling facility for the hybrid batteries. As a matter of fact there is a $200 bounty paid to each dealer that returns one. If a Prius is in an accident that totals the car I can assure you that all salvagable parts would be harvested. I am certain that we have to worry less about hybrid batteries than batteries that are discarded in landfills from laptops, cameras, etc etc. I am glad Toyota had the insight (no pun) to make sure a facility is in place when it's needed.

commutermom · July 2005

I drive about 30,000 per year and, noting that you saved 2,500 with your Prius vs your Jeep Liberty, I assume that you too are a high mileage driver. I'm questioning the value of driving this many miles on a car that I'm not sure will truly last the suggested lifetime of 150,000-200,000 miles. I'll hit 100,000 in the first 4 years not the 6(7?) allotted for a 100,000 warrantee. I'm currently driving a 2000 car that has 114,000 on it and gets 24 mpg. Its resale value is embarrassing and I don't know if I ought to consider driving a car til it dies or changing to a newer model every 2-3 years. Again I am assuming you are driving a lot of miles/yr. What is your strategy for your Prius or could you suggest a link that discusses this question? :confuse:

railroadjames · July 2005

"Touche' to you molokai....for reminding all of us(owners & non-owners) of the Prius recycleing of batteries. I really am impressed with Toyota's foresight and even the well designed hybrid system. Many folks are unaware that the Prius hybrid has been in developement/production for well over 11 years. The car was a fair hybrid in the early years and developed into the 2ND Gen."Smarter Car" that is constantly turning heads and wallets left and right. It's by no means a perfect car but it sure delivers on todays' needs.
railroadjames(ding-ding)

falconone · July 2005

I can help with that question. I myself am going to buy a 2006 Prius. I am pleased to hear that there may be the bonus of a possible tax credit. I have no doubt that the car can easily last 150,000 miles. The battery is warranted for that many miles in CA,NY,VT,MA. It is 100,000 in other states. If you opt for a platinum warranty for $985 (sold at this price through some dealers) you'll have piece of mind. I drive around 20,000 miles per year and have no doubt I'll be owning this car for at least seven years. Take a drive and see if you like it first. Another choice would be to hold on to your current vehicle until it expires. Since you can't get much money for it, I think it makes sense to keep it as long as you don't have to invest too much money in it. Getting 24mpg is not bad either. Just do the math and see what's best for you.

railroadjames · July 2005

Just why is it that ...CA,NY,VT,& MA get the advantage of extended Warrantees that other states don't. Seems morally and legally unethical and down right unfair. Whats good for one state should be good for all. It doesn't take much forethought to question this quirk. Hmmmmmm.
This takes me back to the other question that used to irritate me...when dealers would give an additional $500.00 discount to "college grads" and leave the "blue-collar" guy out in the cold. Seems predjidicial to me.
Railroadjames(equality in the market)

gagrice · July 2005

It is a state mandate. Toyota and Honda are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. California and the 4 wannabe states all require that warranty to get the AT-PZEV emissions rating. With the high sulfur gasoline in the other 45 states it is difficult to get that rating.

falconone · July 2005

Very true.. California has the worst smog problems so they are the ones that came out with the idea. Texas and Colorado should embrace that as well. The air quality in Denver and Houston is pretty bad too.

oldjoe · July 2005

Whoops...I never said Hybrids were worthless...they have their place in a high-urban road system...maybe. Washington was so enamored that they allowed hybrids to use the special commuter lanes without benefit of the additional passengers. That practice has been stopped, seems like many people were just buying hybrids to gain access to the high speed commuter lanes.

Yes, I have read up on the Prius and do not like the abysmal handling characteristics it has. Thin tires and a soft suspension allow the Prius to be "thrown around" in Freeway or high wind driving and gas mileage to suffer. I took my Honda Accord on a trip from Eastern Iowa to Rapid City, SD...the wind was blowing, the sun was hot and I sat comfortably and in complete control...no wiggle, no weaving and gas mileage at 65-75 was 30-33 MPG...in complete luxury. That is my idea of transportation in 2005.

Gas mileage estimates for the hybrids are a very well known and accepted joke...even the government admits that the estimates are 20-25 % too high due to archaic formulas that are used to estimate mileage (the formulas were made up many yaers ago). The federal government went to change the formula so that the hybrids would more accurately reflect their true gas mileage and ran into a hornet's nest from the companies that manufacture hybrids...Toyota being the most vocal. How dare the formula be changed to tell the truth? Shenanigans like this are the reason hybrids are still a bit suspect for the average user.

My Honda is rated 5 stars in all seating positions, not just the driver's seat...and the standard side airbags and side curtains belongs as standard equipment on such a poor handling auto as the Prius...not as an option.

Things are improving...there are now teams of people going around the country (Canada at least) showing fire fighters and Emergency personnel like police and paramedics where the various kill switches are on the dangerous battery packs. These locations and technology changes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and from auto to auto and probably will be standardized in the future. Additional items that may be necessary will be external and internal large emblems or text spelling out that the auto is a hybrid. There are some necessary changes coming.

There is no doubt that the so-called hybrids are an additional technology. However, driving an underpowered hybrid in fast city freeway traffic gives an instant defensive driving course to the driver. What was it...67 HP. Gee I had a 1967 Opel 4 speed stick shift that carted 4 of us and our books and briefcases to work getting 44MPG on the highway and city 25 mile drive into Philadelphia...1100CC and 90 HPs. Heck, it could even walk itself around the block on it's battery and starter motor (Opel had a lot of ignition wire problems.)

Oh yes, VW had a engine kill at stoplight system back in the 1970s.

Hybrids are probably here to stay...if they can solve some of the problems. by the way, there was a governor's conference in Des Moines Iowa last week where the 34 governors were carted around town by Chevrolet Suburbans... running on 85% methanol (corn squeezins to usa all). Hmmm, wonder if GM will bring that engine out soon! 89-90 test gasoline/ethanol mixtures are readily available here in Iowa at all gas stations for a 6-12 cent per gallon lower price than 87 octane regular unleaded at the same gas station. Yesterday I filled up at $1.99 a gallon for 89 octane gasahol when the regular 87 octane gas price was $2.12 a gallon. Of course Blue states want nothing to do with gasahol.

Seems autos like Prius will be sort of orphans in the hybrid wars as it looks like all the new hybrids are being put into very powerful high-end V-6s and V-8s. Too bad, we may never have anymore of a fleet of hybrid small cars.

Yes, oldjoe will have to be convinced,,,I have lived through the Edsel, the Yugo, GM Diesels, GM 4-6-8s, Mercedes go-slo diesels, 1980s Hyundais, Triumph's IRS, Citroen oil leveling, push-button transmissions, aqua cars, 3-wheel ATVs, Corvairs, Vegas, Electric Shifts, suicide doors, under-the seat gas tanks, fuzzy dice, glass packs, studded snow tires, dunebuggys, assemble-it-yourself car kits, Isetttas, Fiats, Crosleys, Kaiser/Frazer 3 doors (one welded shut)etc.... technology hypes that somehow never did cut it....maybe in my next life.

We all heard the 2004 hype about the superior intellect of the Demo prez candidate ... hype was enormous... until grades at Yale were finally released. If it is too hard to believe ,,,it usually is!

railroadjames · July 2005

Yes the handling leaves a bit to be desired but I'm looking forward to my next set of "better" tires to improve the roadability of my Prius. Ol'Joe, you tend to exaggerate some of your opinions...like..."underpowered hybrid"..If you drove one I think you'd say otherwise. My Prius has exceptional performance compared to several conventional "other" cars. I get a kick out of several drivers when they think I'm going to fade behind on take off from stop lites. I actually beat a "Hummer"(9mpg) off the line once and had to smile looking back at a puzzled wide eyed gas guzzler. Going 500 miles to a tank never ceases to make me smile too.
If you really want to get to know a Prius check out "Motor Trend" & "Car & Driver" they tell it like it is and believe this...They weren't giving accolades out without merit. That and the test drive totally convinced me that the "Smart Hybrid" would be my next car...at $20,689.00 plus tax out the door. I have had several cars too, like you. We must be close in (ol) age. ha! I too have had many good and not so good cars. A semi-automatic '53 Dodge , a '69 Opal GT(red of course), a 63 Impala SS (cherry), even a Corvair. I even built a VW Dune Buggy back in '68. Almost bought an Aqua Car except it almost sunk on a test drive. 50 plus cars and 20 motorcycles later I'm proud to take the big steps to hybrid cars. They are the car of tomarrow ..TODAY.
Railroadjames(toot-toot)

blane · July 2005

RRJ,

Was that an Amphicar?

http://www.amphicar.com/

enchilada · July 2005

The Prius is very interesting....as are the other hybrids. I hope the technology proves itself over time...but (to me) it's a fad at this point. The talk is big but the numbers aren't in yet. I like the concept but am not impressed with the car - yes I've been in a 2005. The VW turbodiesels are much more solid feeling cars to me, have greater range, and get the same or better fuel mileage. Before you say they use more fossil fuels, take a mouthful of bologna. Work is work - the Prius engine is consuming just as much fuel as the TDI engine (for the same mpg) - I don't care if it is powering the car directly or converting that fuel energy into electricity to propel the electric motor/charge the battery. My backyard or yours? It's the same thing.

I'll temper my statements by saying that I hope these cars succeed in the long term, because I am fascinated from an engineering standpoint. A superior route at this point? If it makes you feel better, sure....otherwise, nothing outstanding here compared to some other IC technologies.

falconone · July 2005

I would not consider the Prius a poor handling car by any means. My brother-in-law installed 16" tires and the car performs quite admirably. It has stability control which really makes it a joy to drive in the snow. You can't even get that on an accord. Go figure! He is getting over 50 MPG at 60-65 which is 20 mpg better than what you're getting. Who's laughing now????

falconone · July 2005

The problems with the VWs is their abysmal reliability. I've owned one and one of their cousins (Audi). I know. The Prius does not pollute the air like a VW diesel. That's what is important to me.

railroadjames · July 2005

I stand corrected...Amphicar is the car I almost sunk on a test drive. Thanks for the reminder and clarification.
railroadjames

oldjoe · July 2005

If you read the Prius forums you will note that the current hybrids are not trouble free. And, despite the hype, the Prius has some teething problems, especially since it cannot be driven if there is a problem with the computer or hybrid battery pack.

However, my main concern is where would you ever find a mechanic to fix any hybrid problem... except hopefully at a qualified dealer! Trying to train every back yard and gas station mechanic is just not going to work. Let's see, will BBMCO fix a transmission problem and will QuickyLube understand that they cannot put any motor oil into a hybrid except the specified type...not a problem for the people with autos under warranty, but how about the aftermarket on used cars. Tecky's might understand but not the average USA driver who just puts gas in and maybe changes the oil every 8-10,000 miles. I am betting that the used car market for non-warranted hybrid used cars may wind up to be a bit thin!

falconone · July 2005

Not according to what I've been reading. People are paying quite a dollar to buy pre- 2004 Prius. Truth be told, any car today should be serviced by the dealer. We're not in the 70's anymore. Just try bringing an Audi to Joe's Service Station. LOL.... I can just imagine!!! The Prius and future hybrids are gonna do fine. Can't wait to get mine!!!

gagrice · July 2005

Just try bringing an Audi to Joe's Service Station

That is a very good point. If you cannot find a mechanic that can work on your modern car after the warranty is up, you are in trouble. Dealerships and especially Toyota & Lexus are known for over charging on after warranty repairs. A car like a Prius is especially bad as there is little chance of finding an independent repair shop for the near future. Several posters are already feeling the pain of repairing a Prius that is out of warranty. A 2003 Prius should not have a $3800 plus repair bill. This happened with in days of her buying the car. Sounds like the someone dumped their Prius on an unsuspecting, would be advocate of the hybrid technology. She will now be a very vocal voice against the Prius. The Prius is a very visible symbol of the emerging hybrid technology. When 20 or 30 people stall on the highway it gets more headlines than the 800,000 trucks that Toyota had to recall. Toyota should have kept the 8 year 100k mile B to B warranty they offered on the original Prius. At least until all the bugs are worked out.

blane · July 2005

Gary,

Is the mechanic at Joe's Service Station going to service your new GMC Sierra Hybrid for hybrid-technology-related concerns any time soon?

gagrice · July 2005

Not until the warranty is up. If the vehicle is relatively trouble free I will keep it. If not I'll dump it and try something else. We did find an excellent mechanic for the Lexus. I would never trust a Lexus dealership again after our experience with those thieves.

PS
Bob Baker Lexus, our once dealer, is asking ten thousand dollars markup for the RX400h on their lot. If that does not qualify as a thief, I don't know what might.

falconone · August 2005

Gary... one dealer screws you and you condem them all? Now that hybrids are emerging and becoming a little more mainstream time will tell regarding repair issues. If Toyota fails to keep owners happy, their hybrids will fail. It's plain and simple. Regarding the issue with the stalls, we've been down that road. Why don't we hear about it in the news anymore? No one with brand new 05's has experienced the problem. It was a software issue and has been solved.

Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

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