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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "Pull out your calculators. Let's say I was interested in a 2006 Honda Civic — because, well, I am — and I was debating between the sedan and the hybrid. With a navigation system, the hybrid costs $23,350; a similarly equipped Civic EX sedan costs $20,560. The hybrid premium equals $2,790.

    The combined fuel economy of the non-hybrid is 35 mpg; the hybrid, 50 mpg, a theoretical difference of 15 mpg. In five years of average driving (15,000 miles per year), I would save 643 gallons, or $1,929 (assuming a gas price of $3 per gallon), with the hybrid. Combined with the current tax deduction (a savings of $580 in my tax bracket) I recoup 90% of the hybrid premium in five years. If I were to buy the Honda Civic hybrid in January 2006, the numbers look even better. The federal tax deduction becomes a credit worth $2,100. Combined with my fuel savings I actually come out about $1,200 ahead.

    Now, put your calculators away, because the point is not whether I, or you, will recoup penny-for-penny the hybrid investment, since the compensations are not exclusively monetary. The hybrid haters actually have a valid point when they declaim the technology as touchy-feely. Its appeal is emotional, but that's not the same as irrational."

    From this recent LA Times article:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12oct12,0,917822.story?col- l=la-home-headlines&track=hppromobox
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I'd like to know what you're talking about. You post makes no sense whatsoever. The Prius I intend to buy gets 50mpg on the highway and costs around 25k NET of the tax credit I'll get. If the Prius wasn't available, I'd probably end up getting another near luxury sedan like I've had in the past. I'm on the PLUS side baby!!!! Do you love it!!!!! Can't wait to get mine!!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Do you intend to get the 06??
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    That is an old article June 2004 when diesel was cheaper than regular by 20-30 cents. Now it costs 20-30 cents more than premium.

    Also while the VW TDI is a fule efficient diesel it is not as reliable as a Toyota Prius.

    The "Usa Today Hybrid Myth" maybe an ole-wive's tale itself purposfully manipulating facts.

    The Myth buster,

    MidCow
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    the hybrid costs $23,350; a similarly equipped Civic EX sedan costs $20,560. The hybrid premium equals $2,790.


    One little problem with these numbers.
    As we all know, the hybrid will probably sell for MSRP or more, but the EX sedan won't.
    Nobody really would pay MSRP for a plain ole Civic, new redesign or not.
    This would make the hybrid premium well over the 2790 you quote.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Regardless of how much more the hybrid might cost, it still pays in the long run. Every mile you drive is gas money saved, and every gas price jump is something you will not fear.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    "it still pays in the long run."

    I agree it's just than some people are more interested in a sprint than a marathon ;)

    An ole miler,

    MidCow
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You need to do more research on your own mr hrao because reading the press only and taking it at face value will give you a shallow view of reality. Possibly the writer was writing the piece to be provocative to generate sales. Maybe someone in a large company not related to hybrid development 'encouraged' those writers to put the piece in CNN or USA Today. It happens all the time.

    This you can verify for yourself and become your own reporter:
    Standard Prius w/ Pkge #4 - $24500 ( S+C A/B, VSC, SKS )
    Standard LE 4c Camry...... - $22400 ( S+C A/B, VSC )
    Standard LX 4c Accord...... - $22400 ( S+C A/B, VSC )
    With gas @ $2.75/gal:
    The Prius owner will 'recover' his $2000 premium in a little over 2 yrs at 15K mi/yr...At 25K mi/yr it will be recovered in 18 mos. I drive 45K mi/yr and I will recover it in 10 months.

    The $500-600 Tax incentive in 2005 for the Prius balances any discount you can get on an '05 ICE Camry/Accord. But NEXT year the Prius likely will be LESS expensive vis-a-vis the Camry/Accord due to the larger Tax Credit.

    This really is a no brainer for some drivers and it's not a myth. But it is not for all drivers yet and it's not intended to be for all drivers at this time.

    You cant compare the Prius to the Civic/Corolla because they are not the same class of vehicle or have the same features. You dont compare a Civic to an Acura do you?

    If you only want fuel efficiency and are willing to give up something like ride or size or MILES (?) then consider comparing a Certified USED Prius to a Civic/Corolla. Then you can get a midsized '04 Pkge #4 Prius w/ 30-35K miles at about the same price as a new Compact Civic/Corolla and still save money on fuel in the long run.

    kdhspyder
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    As of Jan 1st we also have to factor in the US tax credit. That should be nice!!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The same argument can be used for many other car purchases. Should I get the V6 or the 8? Sometimes that can be thousands!! Is there a payback? NOPE!!! Hybrids make the most sense. Can't wait to get mine!!!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    KDHsyder,

    What does an ICE only Prius cost ? That's what we should compare the Prius too.

    The prius is not exactly anything, not really in the Camry class but almost, Not really in the Accord class but almost, Not really in the Civic class but almost, not really in the Corolla calss but almost. Do you comapre it to other midsize because it has a hatchbach which without it would be compact, Do you compare it to economy ? Do you compare it based on price? Do you compare it to other hybrids? Do you compare it based on perfromance? Do you compare it to other hatchbacks? Do you compare it based on features? It seems to have some luxury features: Xexon, smart card, Nav and some truly ecnomy features: no power seat, no sun roof, no fully dusk-to-dawn snesing automatic lights. So what do you call it a hatch-ecolux-hybrid class? Some compare it to a duck-billed platerpus

    MSRP pricing is pretty funny way to compare since the Prius sells at MSRP and all the others you compared it to are discounted.

    Again , I say the olny real car you can compare it to isd the non-hybrid version of the Prius, which doesn't exist.

    On a more serious note, is the pricing and option packages available for the 2006 Prius. When will they be available ?

    How about telling Toyota, that people want manual shift hybrids as an option!

    Cruis'n in 6th,

    MidCow
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Pls MidCow..

    (2) The Prius has been around long enough to determine high battery replacement costs.


    A statement without supporting supporting facts. As of today most Gen1 Prius are entering their 6th yr of service with on average 70-90K miles. If any batteries or segments have had to be replaced the cost to the buyer is - ZERO! They are still under warranty.

    As you know from reading other posts -as I am sure you have - the entire battery doesnt fail all at once if it fails at all. The replacement cost per segment is about $100-150 each. This is a non issue at the moment unless you can provide data about significant numbers of Prius battery replacements.

    Your driving preferences are entirely your own. But unsubstantiated statements are not necessary.

    On the subject topic it is very difficult for dealers to get Prius' back in trade. Most preowned ones are given to other family members when the original owner opts for a new one or they are sold retail in the paper. We've had 2 this entire year.; an '04 and an '03. The '04 went for ~$20K ( pkge #2 ) and the '03 went last weekend for $18300 ( I traded it for $16900 + 600 reconditioning and Certification costs ).
    kdhspyder
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I'd say content wise, a loaded Mazda 3 is pretty close to the Prius. It even has heated seats and leather. It doesn't have stability control or smart entry/exit,CVT or a few other goodies. The Mazda 3 is a great little car. Unfotunately it gets HALF the mileage (on average) that the Prius gets. If the Prius was not available, I'd consider the Mazda 3/Volvo S40. Great little cars.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    On a more serious note, is the pricing and option packages available for the 2006 Prius. When will they be available ?

    You are right of course that no ICE Prius exists. In this absence the best comparison is to a Camry/Accord/Altima due to the interior room ( passengers and cargo ), ride comfort due to its longer wheel base and speed ( same 0-60 as a 4c Camcord ).

    The Prius is sold at sticker but a similarly equipped Camcord is not far under sticker. If one wanted a Camcord with all the safety features of a Package 2 Prius the transaction price now is likely in the $21K+ range from a $22500 sticker price.

    I've seen the new package contents on the '06 which are being built as we speak. They will be shipped early next month to arrive on the WC around Thanksgiving and on the EC a few days later. I've heard that pricing will be announced at the end of OCT.(?)

    We already have quite a few orders for the '06 with prices 'To Be Determined' but with delivery specified for AFTER 1-1-06. I will keep you informed if I hear more. :)

    kdhspyder
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    kdhspuder said: " and speed ( same 0-60 as a 4c Camcord ). "

    Well actually that is way off! The Prius at best is 1.3 seconds slower and at worst 2.6 seconds slower

    Let's take an unbiased source Auto.ConsumerGuide reports:

    Prius ( auto) 10.5

    4-cyl Camry (auto) 9.2 (4-speed, 5-speed should be faster)
    4-cyl Camry (manual) estimate= 8.7
    4-cyl Accord (auto) 8.6
    4-cyl Accord (manual) 7.9

    Pricing right now on 2006 models on all iPriuss close to MSRP, But alreay Camry's and Accords can be had for less than MSRP and in six months closer to invoice. That is several thoiusand dollar difference.

    Again I ask , where is my manual shift Prius. Can I special order ? iwould be thier prototype tester.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Don't hold your breath. It ain't gonna happen. Buy a used Insight.
  • sarahfromscsarahfromsc Member Posts: 10
    The point is there is not a car out there that is an investment. No matter how much, or little, you have paid for a vehicle you are never gonna get your money back. The best way to recoup some of your money is pay cash and drive the car until the wheels are falling off. If you don't have the cash, finance only for a few years and keep the car until the wheels fall off completely off.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Hybrids are the only cars now that actually retain MOST of their value. That won't be the case for long. My sister's Prius has retained nearly 80% of the purchase value after 2 yrs and 35k miles. Not bad!!!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Used HCH, 2005 CVT, 15,000 miles on it, $22K purchased at the dealer.

    That's holding about 99% of the new value after 15K miles.

    What a crazy world !!! :D :shades:
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    I agree. If you own a hybrid >2 years old, now may be a great time to sell it for top dollar and purchase a new one after Jan 1st.

    Does anyone know if a second owner is elibile for the 2006 tax credit or does this only apply towards first time titled?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    One of the reasons that hybrids retain more of their value is that there is fewer of them. As demand goes up, demand goes up for the used ones too. Once the supply of used hybrids starts to catch up with demand you should see the resale values become more like non-hybrid vehicles in the mid term.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I don't see that anytime soon. But who knows... gas is going down in price. We'll see. I couldn't care less about resale value. I intend to drive mine into the ground.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The last two post about hybrid batteries have been moved to the
    Hybrids: The Great Battery Debate discussion.

    Let's pay attention to the topics please.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The 2001 Prius was rated 9 Air Pollution and 9 Greenhouse gases, 4.0 tons of emissions per year.

    The 2006 Camry is also rated 9 SULEV II. It is going for somewhat less than the Prius. Also larger, faster and better handling.

    If being PZEV was such a priority for those buying hybrids. How many of you bought the 2000 Nissan Sentra that was rated a 9 with a CARB rating of PZEV. Hybrids do not have a corner on clean cars. At least 30 cars are available with a PZEV rating. They are not all strapped with a big hybrid premium.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    What do you consider a hybrid premium? Would that be the premium you paid on your sierra? The one that gets 16mpg? The Prius in general is a bargain with its content. I actually consider I'm getting value here!!!! Gotta love it!!! 10 weeks and counting.... Can't wait!!!!! GO HYBRID!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Would that be the premium you paid on your sierra? The one that gets 16mpg?

    That $1000 premium I paid may or may not have been a good deal. Only time will tell. If the truck had not had the 5.3L V8 that I wanted I would not have bought it. MPG was the least of my consideration. I like not having to waste money on smog tests. I like the quiet starts. Would I recommend this or any other hybrid to a friend? Only if they were so unfortunate as to have an extremely long commute every day. I do have a very useful truck for a lot less than you will pay for your Prius. I imagine the difference will pay my gas bill for the next 3 years. By that time some company will have a midsize PU with a diesel engine for me to buy.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Sorry to burst your bubble but the Prius will be safer than a pickup.
  • hybridlover69hybridlover69 Member Posts: 12
    I would venture to guess that a Prius is safer than a PU hybrid. I did the research. Anyone that bought a GM hybrid got ripped off. Plain and simple.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did the research. Anyone that bought a GM hybrid got ripped off. Plain and simple.

    How many do you think they built? If anyone paid MSRP $36,900 I would agree. If they paid the TMV of $27k it was not a bad deal. I Paid a bit over $24k and think I made out very well for the truck I got. It is quite obvious that several of those posting are not familiar with the IIHS ratings on cars and trucks. They would find out that the insurance companies consider the GM PU trucks, some of the safest vehicles on the road. For me and millions of other Americans the only practical vehicle is a PU truck. I don't see anything in the Sierra class that compares power or mileage wise.

    And just like the Prius NO smog checks here in CA. 10 years from now my Sierra will be worth $7k to $8k and the $27k Prius will be worth little or nothing. You may have to pay to dispose of the batteries.
  • hybridlover69hybridlover69 Member Posts: 12
    Very nice loophole to avoid the smog testing. I wonder why other car companies aren't that creative. In ten years time the Prius will be worth more than the PU because let's face it, the PU will be in the junkyard while the Prius will be cruising down 101. Gee... I wonder what the batteries will cost in your PU hybrid since they only made 300 or so. Shall we say paperweight material??
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Of course a 10 year old Prius that still runs is a dream. My batteries are very inexpensive Lead Acid. A proven technology over the last 75 or more years. I dare say there are way more 10 year old GMC PU trucks on the road than 10 year old Toyota cars.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Your car is GM..right? Then that will be a dream in ten years. You may be buying your parts from Toyota!!! LOL..... See you on the 405 in my Prius...ta ta...... :P :P
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    WOW the price of onedealer here is Houston is trying to charge $2,000 about MSRP for a 2005 Prius.

    Concerning Malaproprisms, spelling, grammar, and incorerct use of words should not be judge here in my opinion. If the thought is clear so be it.

    However if someone is already a moron Intelligence level, then wouldn't a labotomy further reduce their mental capacity to the level of my Golden Retriever ?

    Most enviromentalist groups exist to get a rise out of people; I would save Bluewater Network suceeded see post hrao, "Any downside to buying a hybrid?" #444, 24 Oct 2005 11:29 am

    Don't let things like that get your dander up., However, the world could use more Golden retrievers.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Hate to be off topic... but those Golden Retrievers are the best dogs. I miss my Ginger who we had to put to sleep about five years ago. :cry:
  • tdohtdoh Member Posts: 298
    "...and every gas price jump is something you will not fear."
    Why not? Does a hybrid cost even less to operate as gas prices increase? Let's see you make that same statement if/when gas prices reach say, $5/gallon...
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If/ when gas hits 5 bucks I'd rather pay to fill up a hybrid than a car that gets say 19 mpg average.
  • tdohtdoh Member Posts: 298
    Posts like the one I am replying to is proof that it's not always just about hybrids in general--clearly, hybridlover69 appears to be a Prius fanboy or fangirl. I mean, why knock someone for buying a hybrid (just) because IYHO it's not as good as a Prius? It would seem that the attitude of some of these Prius hybrid owners seem to be a bit condescending--or even a bit snobbish--toward non-Prius hybrid folks; knock someone for driving a non-hybrid...and at the same time, criticize someone for driving a supposedly less-worthy hybrid such as a Sierra hybrid.
  • tdohtdoh Member Posts: 298
    You're missing the point--again, why would one--even a hybrid owner--not fear increasing gas prices? Just because you'd rather fill up a hybrid than a lower-mileage non-hybrid does not mask the fact that you're wallet will be much lighter than it was when gas was say, $2/gallon.

    I assume you were just being somewhat facetious with your "$4000 more" comment 'cuz I'd be willing to bet that even the majority of Prius owners--or any hybrid owner, for that matter--would not be able to afford to fill up his/her vehicle at those gas prices, no matter how much he/she would save compared to a non-hybrid owner...

    Heck, even at $10/gallon I'd be willing to bet that even some of those hybrids would be seeing less time out on the roads. ;)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Less money at the pump always brings a :D to my face. Bottom line. I'd rather fillup a hybrid Prius/HCH.

    Ten More Weeks for my Prius..... WOO HOO!!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Fading ... sequeing to more produtive avenues. Too many threads so little information.

    MidCow
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    but those Golden Retrievers are the best dogs.

    My third wife raised Goldens. They were very nice dogs. They don't like to be left alone, her best female Pumpkin chewed up my $1200 pair of Lucchese boots while we were at work. Otherwise they are great dogs. No hybrids allowed :)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Well... if we don't agree on hybrids at least we agree on dogs!!! Have a pomeranian and a maltese now which will fit fine in the back of the Prius. ;)
  • roberte1roberte1 Member Posts: 42
    It will take most Hybrid owners 12 Years to recover the additional cost of the car at purchase . For example a Ford Escape XLS 4x2 MSRP is $20,070 and the Ford Escape Hybrid 4x2 MSRP is $26,900 . That is 16.1 years at 12,000 miles per ($3.00 per Gallon)to make up the intial cost of buying the car . I don't know about you but I don't keep my cars that long.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You might have to go back and read some of the earlier posts. This point has been killed and laid to rest.

    Synopsis: You do NOT buy a hybrid to save money. Those who think so are being hyped ( ;) ) by the media. Saving money is done by buying a Rio or Yaris or a Certified Used Echo for under $10K.. or NOT buying a new vehicle at all. Repeat: you do NOT buy a hybrid to save money - only - it's a nice side benefit.
  • roberte1roberte1 Member Posts: 42
    Honda Accord 19.3 Years, Toyota Prius 21.6, and the Lexus RX 400h 23.2 years all at 12,000 miles per year ($3.00 per Gallon) with comprable equipped models . That's comparing the Prius to a Corolla .
  • roberte1roberte1 Member Posts: 42
    If its not about saving money then buy the standard gas version and donate the rest to alternative fuel research . That is the only thing that will truely save the envioroment or just ride a bike !!! That truely makes the most sence . It will make you healthier and you will not pollute.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Read back all the posts. Your arguments make little or no sense. The Prius and HCH are the best choices if you want good fuel economy. VW TDI is banned in many states because it pollutes too much. High miantenace too. I've owned VWs and Audis.. nice road cars. They need LOTS of maintenance. Needed new rotors and brakes on my gently driven allroad after 10k miles.
  • roberte1roberte1 Member Posts: 42
    Change is coming !!!!! It is called low sulfer fuel . Something that Europe has had for a long time . The US is just behind on desiel techkownlege . Exspect to see a V10 TDI in CA before the end of 2006 .
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Again you need to rethink what you are saying... Prius vs keeping what you have.. the cost differential is infinite..

    synopsis: Do NOT buy a hybrid only to save money on fuel. Its usually not worth it.. BTW I would pay for the differential in 14 mo's with the driving I do. So it's relative. LOL

    P.S. The Prius is not in the same class as a Corolla or Civic. They are not comparable as apples/apples. But if you are going to compare it to something you might compare it to a 2.0L Passat.

    You might be surprised by this little item but the Prius is almost exactly the same size as your Passat.
    0.4" difference in wheelbase
    more cargo room in the Prius
    Passenger room is the same or slightly more in the Prius.

    Oh and you recover the 'hybrid premium' the instant you drive off the lot. The Prius goes for less.. similarly equippped. YPMV..
  • roberte1roberte1 Member Posts: 42
    The point is you will never save the money !!!
This discussion has been closed.