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If Toyota keeps this up, the next Tundra/Sequoia is going to look absolutely awesome!
Anyone have anything concrete?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As Toyota has said many times, people don't buy Camry to get HP. Honda has also learned that HP is not a cure-all.
A sound investment is what's sells. And Toyota is on this fuel economy kick, with hybrids and all.
The 4-cyl engines need to stay 4-5MPG ahead of the six.
The six is gonna have to be as efficient as the current 4 (24/34), just to stay ahead of the more powerful Avalon 3.5 EPA (22/31), since the Avalon should be 40-50HP stronger, the Camry should be more efficient.
So I say the 4 is 28/38 (29/39 MT), the 6 23/33.
DrFill
The big complaint I have about engine choices in this class (Camry, Accord, Altima) is that the fours are not quite powerful enough, and the sixes are too powerful for a FWD car, leading to torque steer and traction problems. A smooth 200-ish HP engine with plenty of torque seems to be the sweet spot for a ~3200 lb family sedan. Above that, I would want RWD for ease of use.
Toyota has done great things and learned a lot about fuel efficiency in that time, and it's an important selling point these days.
And the Camry gets 24/34 now, so adding 1 MPG doesn't give enough of a reason to swap Camrys.
I'll cut a deal with you. Add 10HP and 2 MPG. Better aerodynamics, gearing can net mileage gains despite higher power.
Toyota likes to burn the candle at both ends.
The Camry is more important than the Avalon, so I doubt they will let the Avalon powertrain be both more powerful and more efficient for long, since that would choke their Golden Goose.
Knowing 'Yota, when they released the Avalon, they still had some tricks up their sleeve for the Camry to make it just as desireable.
DrFill
In terms of the 4 cylinder, using Variable Valve Timing on both the intake and exhaust sides can easily net 10 hp and a few MPG, me thinks. Coupled with a slick shape and a smart transmission, I think we'll see something like 26/36 for the next 4 cylinder, with hp about 170-175 and twist in the 165 foot pounds range.
~alpha
Hmm. Since the Solara is counted in Camry sales, it wouldn't be off topic to talk about that.... anyone know anything about the next-gen?
I agree, the Camry SE and Solaras should (and I hope they will) use a more powerful engine than the LE/XLE trim lines.
Next generation Solara is a long time away....
~alpha
People are not buying Camrys to drag race Altimas.
There is no point to raise power by a dramatic amount when there isn't a real shortage of power on the V6 models as is other than just to say that other car has x horsepower so a Camry should have the same or more "just because."
They need to be focusing on the transmission/engine hesitation issues and try to make the Camry the most refined riding/driving car you can get for the money.
"People are not buying Camrys to drag race Altimas"
Uh, they might in an SE! And they'd lose!
There are other cars better suited for "hard driving."
As for the four, I am sure it will hit an extra 10 hp and an extra 2 mpg, city and highway, as someone above postulated. Personally, I would hope for more mpg. But it certainly would not be shabby if it hit those targets.
And on a sidenote, I sure would hope that traction control will be standard on those V-6s, along with side curtain airbags and maybe stability control.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Realized that the 2006 RAV will be arriving this fall - probably a good 3 or 4 months ahead of the Camry. I would think the characteristics of the 4-cylinder should provide some clue as to hp/efficiency.
Having said that, I have no idea what they'll use as the new 6.
The 3.0 in the GS seems like a good fit to me also. I was under the impression that the 3.0 (GS), 3.5 (Avalon) and 4 liter (4Runner) are all related. If that's the case, I see no reason why the 3.0 wouldn't fit in the Camry. Am I mistaken?
Toyota should of put the 3.3L on 2005+ Camry V6 XLE along with SE
Honda better have its ducks in a row for the upcoming MMC and FMC.
The Accord is their bread & butter so I have a feeling that Honda will bring out their "big guns" for the MMC and especially for the FMC in 2007.
I can't wait for some better pictures of the next Camry.
~alpha
I think you're right. The average Camry buyer is 9 years older than the average Accord buyer (according to JD Power). That average buyer isn't going to care about another 20 hp or so, they're more interested in a couple more mpg. Nissan needs to distinguish itself from Toyota/Honda and they've chosen horsepower to be that differentiator.
I also don't think Lexus is going to dilute the image of one of their premium cars (GS) by putting that Lexus engine in the Camry. Everyone knows the ES and Camry are basically the same vehicle so it's not a problem for them to share an engine.
Btw, anyone see the new C&D? The Avalon won their $30K family sedan comparison.
Well, then why did Lexus introduce a GS that tops 50K in AWD form but offers only 245 horses, when the Avalon starts at 26K and offers 280?
It depends on the market and segment and I dont think anything is out of the question.
~alpha
The only diff between the 3.0 engine in the GS and the 07 Camry will be the badge on top of the engine cover (and maybe some software tricks).
Because they think their customer is sophisticated enough not to equate higher hp with "better." I don't think (and let's not forget, we're all just expressing our opinions here) too many people are cross-shopping the GS and the Avalon. They appeal to totally different demographics. I'm sure there aren't many potential Lexus buyers out there thinking "why should I pay $50K for 245hp when I can get 280hp for only 60% of that price."
I guess we'll all find out in 10 months or so.
Imacmil, Your initial statement:
"I also don't think Lexus is going to dilute the image of one of their premium cars (GS) by putting that Lexus engine in the Camry."
And my point was essentially the following question: How would the GS and Camry sharing a 3.0L engine be any greater dilution of the Lexus brand than the cheaper Avalon trumping the GS300 in power and torque? I simply posit that it wouldnt. Toyota apparently saw little to no risk of brand dilution in having the Avalon as more powerful than a 50K Lexus GS300, which leads me to think that it would not be a major issue if the Camry uses the 3.0L engine as well.
I agree with your statement that most people probably arent cross shopping the Avalon and GS. So, I also doubt they will cross shop the Camry and GS, further supporting my supposition, and pointing away from brand dilution should the GS and Camry use the 3.0L.
And as motownusa stated, the GS's use of the 3.0L is interim in nature. That engine will likely be in Toyota's North American arsenal for some time, but not in the GS any longer than the 2007 or 2008 model year.
Again, I certainly don't KNOW which V6 will appear in the Camry. My hope is that it is the 3.0L iteration of the new engine family, which I think will be a tremendous mix of power and efficiency. It would certainly be great if the 3.5L could be the the V6 in the SE model. Worst case, IMO, is that the current 3.3L (really just a version of the 3.0L introduced on the 1992 Camry in late '91) soldiers on with no increases in efficiency or power.
~alpha
P.S. --- Somehow I get the feeling that high performance cars don't thrill you
That is why I like the 4-cyl manual tranny Camry. It is efficient, quick, fun to drive (thanks to manual) and has room for my kids. Best part is they go for not much over 16k. I enjoy not having to pay for equipment I would prefer not to have - sunroof, spoiler, auto trans etc. I would put the Accord in the same category, but it is a little more expensive, and it has a smaller trunk and no split folding rear seat.
I look forward to the new 4-cyl model. I would guess it will have nearly 170 hp and will get 25/35 mpg.
The difference will be more significant than that, and Toyota has learned from Honda that power doesn't sell to this class of buyer.
Toyota's fuel economy is hot now, so expect to see them keep up the momentum with 3MPG better, with a small bump in HP.
DrFill
The GS is most likely getting the 3.0 this year because putting in the 3.5 would put it too near the 4.3's output. Toyota is being "squeezed from the top" in the Lexus division. In that light, it makes a lot more sense for the GS to get the 3.5 and the new 4.6 next year, and for Camry to then get the new 3.0 from the outset and keep it for 5 years.
I must say I am quite impressed if that is truly the plan. The new 3.0, while "only" putting out 245 hp, is very advanced technologically. For Camry to get it as the new optional engine for MY '07 is significant given Camry's mission and price.
Does anyone besides me think those fuzzy pics supposedly of the new Camry a ways back looked so much like the Avalon that they might just BE the Avalon, fuzzied up by someone at their home computer? If that really is the new Camry, then they have applied really nice styling to this model for the first time in a decade (IMO), but it looks too similar to Avalon.
My, how I DO love speculation!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
~alpha
Remember those original Sienna pictures from The Hollywood Extra that showed the Sienna having four swing out doors? That Sienna looks a lot different from the one Toyota sells now.
If Toyota bothers to accomodate the limited number of economy-minded buyers (4 cyl 5 speed), how difficulty could it be to do the same for the benefit of the limited number of performance-minded buyers (6cyl, 5 speed)? Acura does [TL]; Honda does [Accord Coupe]; Mazda does [Mazda 6 "s" sedan, hatchback & wagon].
The question really is, where is the 6-speed automatic in Toyota's future? I don't think there is going to be one for the '07 Camry, but they should think about doing that for the Camry at some point.
On the flip side, does anyone think the '07 Camry will be the first one ever that is automatic-only? And hey Toyota, how about getting some tiptronic-style shifting in there for the auto? That is becoming increasingly popular - Hyundai for one has it on most automatic models. In a model labelled 'SE' for sport, you should really be able to order the shift yourself, even if you don't actually hit the clutch.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That would be horrible if the '07 was automatic only, but it would not suprise me.
A minor point: the GS and Camry never shared the same engine. The previous 3 liter was the in-line 6 used also in the IS.
Let's reconvene when the new Camry arrives and see what Toyota did.
If that is true, then it will most likely be a detuned Avalon engine and the 2007 ES350 would then probably have 280+ HP.
Then they started selling V6LE 5spds.
I remember speculation about the Sienna was that they were building a "Sport" model...