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2007 Toyota Camry

1910121415102

Comments

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "What makes you guys think this is even possible?"

    Well, for one, Toyota said that the engine would have 166 horses in the RAV, and two, the addition of Dual VVTi has yielded a benefit of 1-2 MPG in the efficiency of the RAV 4 4 cylinder 4A (both FWD and AWD) according to the press release that went out today. Aerodynamics you argue? Fair enough, but aerodynamics dont play a significant role on the EPAs city figures, and those went up too.

    So, thats why I believe its possible.
    :P
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    OK, that sounds reasonable.

    But aren't you comparing two different vehicles (this is a redesign correct?) with similar engines and attributing all of the mileage difference to the engine? Any reduction in weight or a more efficient transmission or reduction in drivetrain friction could have accounted for none, some, most, or all of the mileage improvement.

    Hopefully, Toyota will deliver. It just seemed to me that you guys were attributing all of these changes to the engine and not other factors.

    Any improvement in mileage will make Toyota the class leader. I'm skeptical that they are capable of getting into a big lead, though. Plus, the better they do with the standard 4, the less of a reason there will be to buy the hybrid version.
  • pzykofartpzykofart Member Posts: 46
    Correction: The current generation is 0.28.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Adjusted gearing can definitely improve economy, as would a different transmission, if necessary. Toyota is pretty good at more + more = MORE!

    I'd like to se 26/35 or in that neighborhood.

    That sounds right to me.

    I believe the Hybrid will be V6 based, similar to the Accord Hybrid, with simiar mileage. I would've went after the 4 cylinder, but they may not want to derail the Prius express at this point.

    DrFill
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    That sounds likely to me as well. But I don't think that it will be more. And I don't think it will all come from improvements to the engine.

    Does Toyota have a history of backtracking on their press releases? They already stated the hybrid would be a 4.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Uh, the RAV is gaining 12 inches in length, and I can assure you that weight savings in other places arent going to offset that gain. I'd also argue that the RAV4 has a shorter geared 4sp auto as opposed to the Camrys 5A. Given those factors against increased fuel efficiency, I'd say the gain is due to the significant mods to the existing engine. I think thats reasonable.

    My guess for the next Camry 4 cylinder 5A is 25/35. Heck, if Toyota can manage 22/31 from a 269 horse 3.5L, I think its doable. Besides, its just an educated guess.

    ~alpha
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Not for improved power, but to MATCH the V6 power, whatever that is, by detuning the Six, and filling the gap with electric power.

    Let's say the V6 Camry is around $24k, and gets 22/30, and is 245HP.

    Would you buy a Hybrid with more standard features, that gets 235HP, but has more torque, cost $30k, and get 34/31?

    DrFill
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    When you throw thing like that out, try to include the background. Otherwise it appears to just be a guess, with no education attached.

    I was just asking for the backround, no need for the indignation. Huh
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    Your reasoning is solid. I was just wondering why you think that Toyota would backtrack on their previous statements about the hybrid being a 4. Do you think it is to throw off the competition? Such a move could also hurt credibility with the consumer.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The question initially posted inquired about the 4 cylinder engine that the upcoming Camry will use. I answered that question, and provided reasoning. I didnt realize we had to elaborate our entire knowledge on a vehicle in order to make sense, but what should I know, I've only been a member on these forums for 6 years.

    ~alpha
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    I believe this site was the one putting over the V6/Hybrid concept.

    Doesn't mean that by 2010, the 4 won't have a new playmate itself, right. The Camry will most probably be the one line to get two Hybrids first.

    Do you think a 45MPG Camry will boost sales?

    DrFill
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    I do think that a 45 MPG Camry will boost sales, but probably at the expense of the Prius. Toyota's positioning of the hybrid will be interesting to watch. I almost wonder if they won't position it as an alternative (and eventually a replacement for) the V6 Camry.

    Then if you want a V6, you can buy an Avalon or Lexus.
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    Yes, and I was just saying that the mileage of the vehicle will be determined by more than the engine. Engines produce torque and horsepower, but not MPGs in isolation.

    And congratulations on your 6 years of board service! You must be very proud, indeed.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    If a Camry were to have 42-43MPG at some point, the next-Gen Prius, being a feul economy first vehicle, could use the latest weight/fuel saving technology to get 65MPG, and that would justify it's existence and 100k+ sales.

    DrFill
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Maybe they'll have a 4 cylinder hybrid that gets 40MPG. That way it won't encroach on the Prius.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I believe the Hybrid will be V6 based, similar to the Accord Hybrid, with simiar mileage. I would've went after the 4 cylinder, but they may not want to derail the Prius express at this point

    I believe that Honda made a mistake in linking the IMA to the V6 just for a boost in power and somewhat better FE. Honda does like to beat 'yota to market for the positive publicity. The Insight is still referred to as the first mass produced hybrid here. But it seems that they are hasty to a fault at times.

    For the Camry I'm sure it will be based on the revised 2.4L with the HSD added for horsepower and torque. If the new RAV today is the benchmarrk at 166 hp and one can assume a modest increase in FE from the current Camry model. The 25/35(/30) figure mentioned above for the ICE-only system sounds right.

    I'm guessing that the HSD 4c will be in the 47/37/42 range or about 35-45% better than the ICE-only 4c system....but with ~ 225 hp it should be about 50-60% better on FE than the current V6 model.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    My point for discussion was that the new system would be a 4c that got V6 power.

    I believe that it will boost sales modestly ( +50000 HSD Camry's ) but not necessarily at the expense of the Prius. I think they are looking at Nissan, Honda, Chevy, Ford owners who are not into gadgets but do want V6 power ( they may never have driven anything smaller than a V6 in their lives ). If 'yota is coming out with the HSD Camry next spring the marketing is done already and they are pretty sure that:
    a) they are not going to cannibalize their existing 4c base by just switching them up; some ( like me who drive mega miles ) might do so. 4c owners BTW are normally VERY frugal to the point where anything above the standard LE is a Luxo-boat. I've had 4 of them.
    b) they have found that the Prius owner is unique and that the mundane Camry is not appealing enough; the Prius will always be cutting edge.
    c) the targetted V6 non-Toyota driver is much like the existing 4c Camry owner; They want good solid performance in a comfortable and non-threatening vehicle which BTW gets incredibly good FE.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    I only report the news. I'm not making it up at this time.

    I have read on this site that the Hybrid would be six-based, if only for the ease of transfering parts of sytems already in use into it. I, personally, would make a I-4/Hybrid as mentioned above, as it would have a bigger impact on sales and interest, as the Accord Hybrid is not exactly lighting up the sales charts.

    The only problem with that is if a Camry I-4 Hybrid cost $25k, and a Prius typically cost $25k, that could definitely impact Prius sales.

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The only problem with that is if a Camry I-4 Hybrid cost $25k, and a Prius typically cost $25k, that could definitely impact Prius sales.

    Agreed, but I believe that the correct comparison is most V6's are ~$25-27K - as is the Prius.

    I think there may be some movement from the Prius and from the ICE-4c Camrys to the new HSD Camry but I'd venture that it will not be very large;
    - will the typical 4c Camry owner who fights for a price under $20K suddenly see the light and pony up $26K for essentially the same vehicle he can buy for $21K as an ICE 4c in the new body style? Not in my experience. I'm one of these longtime 4c owners ( 1990 ) and while I sell the hybrids personally I wouldnt buy one for more power ( dont need it ) and ONLY ~40% better FE. ( I prefer the Prius )
    - will the Prius owner give up his/her SKS, bluetooth, Navi and unique style for more power and LESS fuel efficiency? Not likely.
    But..
    - will an V6 Accord/Camry/Taurus owner who's got 150K+ miles on his mid-90's tradein look at 220 HP and ~40 mpg est and new styling. That's a good bet.
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    Did you see this on the edmunds site as a news article or did you see this in the forum? If you can remember where the article was, could you post a link?

    If you saw it in the forum then the data is highly suspect since the forum is mostly filled with opinions.

    The only "official" news on this subject that I have seen was a press release by Toyota announcing that the hybrid Camry would be 4 cyl. Of course, I can't find the release. Can anyone repost a link to it?
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    ...if the hybrid Camry would have the 4 or the V6. Nor have I seen anything definitive in the auto mags.

    If someone can prove me wrong, please feel free to post the appropriate link!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Copied from another source.

    November 1, 2005

    Toyota suspends Prius fleet sales in U.S. due to consumer demand

    Torrance, California – Toyota Motor Sales has temporarily suspended sales of its 2006 Prius gasoline/electric hybrid to government and rental fleets in the U.S., and is cancelling existing fleet order agreements, due to low inventories and an anticipated surge in retail consumer demand.

    The company is advising that availability will remain limited for commercial fleet buyers and that delivery times may be in excess of six months. The recent passage of the U.S. Federal Highway Bill, which permits retail tax credits and HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lane eligibility for hybrid vehicles, has prompted the company to expect an increase in retail demand. Toyota will restore fleet availability once production volumes are sufficient to meet both retail and fleet order demand.


    Nov 1... Honda offers $1200 incentive on HAH due to flagging sales.

    I dont think Toyota will paint itself into the same corner as Honda did.

    I will double check but I think I have some internal 'early presentation' material on the HSD Camry that refers to it being linked to the 2.4L only.
  • larryt22larryt22 Member Posts: 125
    Here is the link right from the Toyota website. I don't know why people keep insisting it is going to be a V6, because it is not. CAMRY HYBRID WILL BE A 4 CYLINDER ONLY!!! They are NOT trying to compete with the Honda Accord, they are trying to make the best selling vehicle in America even more popular. People buy Camrys for value and economy.

    http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2005/summer/hybridcamry.html
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Thanks for the link. It makes eminent sense for Toyota to offer the hybrid with the 4-cylinder; glad to see they're doing just that.
  • tradscotttradscott Member Posts: 108
    Thanks for the link. It is nice to know I didn't imagine this. I too, was wondering why people kept saying they thought it was going to be a 6 when Toyota has publicly stated it will be a 4.
  • poiuy3poiuy3 Member Posts: 10
    The reason why people "natually" think it is hybrid V6 is because RX and Highlander already have a hybrid for the V6.

    The issue is the Camry is not going to get "That" V6 but the same one as Rav 4 and Avalon, or the 2007 RX350. Of course, it goes on the ES350 as well.

    It will be a few years before that hybrid is cheap enough and outdated enough to be put on the Camry. I think it will debut on the GS450.

    The launch date for the Hybrid Camry is NOT the end of the year. Only those made in KY plant will be. The ones made in Japan should be available sooner.

    Giving the I4 will be 166HP and V6 is 268HP, The Hybrid I4 will not upset the "balance" like the GS450 and therefore will not be the "flagship" of Camry. Price wise, I think it should still be lower than the Camry V6. But the V6 will be available for near invoice price a lot sooner than the Hybrid, so the actual price might differ.

    I don't think the Camry Hybrid will have large volume, so it is not going to affect sales of Prius, but will help reduce the complain of shortage.

    Any more Camry photos out there? And did I mention that is a 6 Speed AT with the 268HP V6? It should get at least 33 MPH highway. (Avalon get 31 with a heavier vehicle and 5 speed)

    Ford has 3 months window to sale its Fusion, and that is about it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The issue is the Camry is not going to get "That" V6 but the same one as Rav 4 and Avalon, or the 2007 RX350. Of course, it goes on the ES350 as well.

    It would be nice to have the 3.5L in the new Camry but I dont see it happening. It would absolutely blow away all the other V6's in the midsize class but I dont think the demand is there for this much power from Camry owners. They are frugal for the most part - including in the power dept. Unless you have news otherwise I'd believe a modified more efficient 3.5L in the 245 range.

    HSD +V6: I dont see that ever happening for the same reason That much power is unnecessary in a Camry. Refer to the problems Honda is having with the HAH in just moving them off the lot. They are too expensive with too much power for a CamCord pocketbook.

    I agree that the volume might be relatively low in the overall Camry volume.. possibly 35-50000 vehicles per year. But they only sell about 60-80000 V6's each year too.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I dont understand your reluctance in accepting that the Camry will use the 3.5L V6? Let me ask you this? Did you ever expect that the RAV would be redesigned using this engine, outpowering all Highlanders and 4Runners, and being shy of the 63K Land Cruiser's hp output by 6? (LC =275)? Probably not.

    Someone mentioned a 6A with the V6, what is the source of that info? Seems interesting, given the Avalon has a 5A.

    ~alpha
  • poiuy3poiuy3 Member Posts: 10
    Toyota is not a company that is out to make car loverable or to increase stock value so its share holder will be reasonably happy. It is a company that do things for maximium profit and to expand as quickly as it can. At the last few years, trying to beat GM to be the No 1 in the world. (I still don't understand why, because I can't find the answer to my own question: Then what? Make every single Automobiles in the world?)

    Therefore, There is no reason for Toyota NOT to put the same engine and transmission or other parts on As Many vehicles as Toyota Could.

    The V6 is a given and not need to doubt in order to make it happen. 268 HP will put Toyota on par with the Big Three - Japan Big Three that is. Look for the 6 Speed to be available into more and more Toyota vehicle. Especially if the LS 8 speed turns out to be real.

    A Hybrid I4 will be a good choice.
    1. Gas
    2. Different than others
    3. Made in Japan (if you get it before Fall of 06)
    4. More power than a I4
    5. Tax credit
    6. People KNOWS you pay more than a I4

    However, like the V6, only automatic might be available.
  • poiuy3poiuy3 Member Posts: 10
    Ford actually beat anybody to it with the 6 speed on Fusion. I think that is respectable. But its V6 is underpower a bit.

    I wonder if it is possible for the ES350 to be more powerful than the one in Camry by tuning.
  • pzykofartpzykofart Member Posts: 46
    Actually, a CVT (somewhat similar to the setup in the Lexus GS 450h) will be paired with the hybrid iteration - not a 6/5-speed automatic. The same 3.5 V6 from the Avalon (on the other hand), will get a 6-spd, surely.

    As for the ES 350, the engine is no-more powerful than the next Camry's V6 (268 whp). Remember, the ES is the IS's comfort counterpart, so there's no focus on increased performance here.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'm not sure at all that the 268hp V6 wont be in the new Camry it's just that IMO the Avalon needs to be significantly different than the Camry otherwise the lesser model begins to eat into its bigger brother's sales.

    For production efficiency and cost it sure does make sense to have the same engine in both vehicles. But it does create an interesting marketing question.
    For example:
    As in most cases when 'yota changes styles they don't change the pricing at all. Let's say the XLE V6 which now supports the Avalon XL remains at ~ $28K loaded up + $2K w/Navi. What you will have is a $30K mini Avalon XLS with
    Leather, SR, 6 airbags, premium sound, VSC/Trac and the same engine.
    It sure would make the Camry attractive vis-a-vis the other midsized cars but would it take away some Avalon sales? That wouldnt be a good thing.

    It makes sense now but I was shocked that the RAV has the 3.5L engine. I'm nearly certain that it will be small volume. RAV buyers are frugal like 4c Camry owners. The new V6 RAV also supports the V6 Highlander like the XLE V6 Camry supports the XLS Avalon.

    IOW if a prospective buyer doesnt want to pay $34K for a Limited Highlander but does want upscale features then there is a $28K option in the Limited V6 RAV. Right now the Highlander has no product support. Its the Limited or nothing. Next year the client will have choices.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I think the new 3.0 makes much more sense in the Camry. The 3.0 would be cheaper, lighter, more efficient, and plenty fast - really no need for more. Sometimes people like excess for its own sake though.

    I would get the 4-cyl anyway (so what do I know or care about the 6) which is faster than I need as it is.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The heart of the CamCord market has just spoken. I hear this 20-40 times per month...
    As a 4-time 4c Camry owner I agree wholeheartedly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Question for you specifically dudley.

    If the new Hybrid Camry came with the same 4c engine but got ~40-42 mpg on average AND had the power of the 3.0L but cost in the $26K range would that interest you?
  • pzykofartpzykofart Member Posts: 46
    There's no reason to de/tune an engine. Propspective camry buyers don't look into engine specifications and Toyota will not care if it interferes with Avalon sales.

    The Camry is sort of the core car (if you will) for Toyota, and will extend its variants from Corolla-affordable to Avalon-exclusive, along with hybrid technology. Speculation beyond that is absurd.

    Like I said before (and it's NOT a matter of opinion), the upcoming Camry's V6 is the EXACT same engine from the Avalon. There is no give or take, as it's performance and efficiency is already top-notch.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Like I said before (and it's NOT a matter of opinion), the upcoming Camry's V6 is the EXACT same engine from the Avalon. There is no give or take, as it's performance and efficiency is already top-notch

    No question about it's performance and efficiency. I have seen nothing internal so I will assume that you have from your emphatic statement. This is good.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I may be interested.

    But I can get 34MPG highway in a Sonata GLS. Which isn't too bad. And the Sonata costs a lot less than $26K.

    But I need a minivan, so this is all moot for me.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    I don't buy that as the next Camry V6, but at the same time, it's not impossible. They need to use it for something else besides a stopgap in the IS. It won't be in the IS 3 years from now.

    Toyota doesn't need to satisfy CAFE, like Chevy does need Max efficiency from a Malibu V6, with only 200HP. With an efficient 4 and Hybrid, they can impress us with power in the V6.

    I would detune the 3.5. I would also have something similar in the IS, but they didn't go that way.

    I'd sya it's 75/25 for the 3.5. Pure speculation.

    DrFill
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Yes a 4-cyl hybrid Camry would interest me (while a 6 cyl hybrid would not interest me at all), but I would still probably prefer the regular 4-cyl for the following reasons.

    1 I prefer a stick shift and I doubt the hybrid would be available with one.

    2 Because I prefer a stick shift I would get real world mpg that is not too much worse than the hybrid.

    3 Also because I prefer a stick shift the purchase price would be under $17,000 so the hybrid would be 50% more expensive (quite a lot) and would never pay for itself.

    4 I know the regular engine will go 200,000 miles with no problems and possibly much more if well maintained - don't know for sure if the same is true of the hybrid.

    I realize I am the exception to many rules, but I would love to see a Camry with an even smaller more efficient 4-cylinder engine, or possibly even a diesel.

    I will briefly add an observation that in this great country of ours people often seek revolution over evolution. Not unusual, since we were founded through revolution, but not always the best path.
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota didn't offer stick shift for any U.S. Camry models other than maybe an SE with sporty pretensions.
    The market for stick shift in a Camry-type family sedan is very poor especially now that the mpg gap gets smaller with every new model. In fact it's now normal to expect higher highway mileage with automatic on newly designed cars.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thanks for yuor thoughtful replies. We are similar in needs and driving characteristics - except the 45000 miles I've driven annually for the last 20+ years. I regularly get 33 mpg on my 2000 4c but if I could get 40 mpg and drive cleaner.. I think I'd spring for it, especially if I got one in time for the tax benefit.

    Manual trannies are like hen's teeth..
  • manukumarmanukumar Member Posts: 9
    Ford has a similar situation (in fact, even more so) as the Avalon and future Camry. The Ford five hundred (the bigger car and Avalon equivalent) has 202 HP while the new Fusion (similar car/camry equivalent) is available in 6 cylinder version with 220 Hp for a lower price. I don't think this is a serious concern since there is not much overlap between the segments and the folks who buy the Avalon probably buy it because it is more spacious, not because it is more powerful.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good point. The ride and the semi-luxury panache may keep the FiveHundred and Avalon separate from their siblings..
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    that they will make a 3.5L 250HP six in the near future for the Edge and Aviator.

    I guess this should halt potential buyers of the 2006 Rav4 (260+HP) and mid-gen RX350 buyers dead in their tracks, huh?

    There was a time when Ford actually was considered leading-edge, not Johnny-come-lately!

    So with such an announcement, I interpret this to mean the Fusion and Five Hundred won't be getting the engine until 2008 at the earliest, ENSURE-ing their bottom-feeder status.

    Not that power is everything. But Ford has decided that a six-speed is what the market wants over power, style, or anything nice.

    Why anyone would buy a 500 over an Avalon is beyond me. The Avalon may drive like a yawn, but at least it's a fast yawn, with a Lexus-level interior.

    The Fusion has a nicer interior, replacing the hopelessly fake paneling inside with Piano Black lacquer.

    Is the Fusion nicer inside AND more powerful than the 500, or am I imaging that?

    Now THAT is what I call Brand Management! Kudos!

    DrFill
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    word is that Five Hundred is getting the new 3.5L next fall. I would not be surprised if Fusion got it as the optional V-6 at the same time, or soon thereafter. Don't expect to wait until 2008.

    It would be interesting to see Toyota begin to use CVTs in the Camry. I know people like them less, but they sure do improve fuel economy, usually.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • maxellmanmaxellman Member Posts: 43
    CVT only for the Hybrid I4, so it really dones't matter if people like it or not, because supply will be shorter than demand.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    That's kinda what I was sayin'. If the Fusion gets it somethime after next fall, the car will be a 2008.

    The Nissan Altima has had a big 3.5 for almost 4 years! What has Ford been doing over that time??

    That's the problems I have with the US vs. The Competition. The Japanese can get a whole vehicle from concept to showrrom in less than two years.

    WE, AMERICANS, are getting beaten to the punch, then the Japanese (or Koreans) are planning their 2nd improvement before we can make one. Ford can't make a 6-speed without help!

    I cannot hide my disappointment. :cry: How can any American support this level of slouth?

    BTW, the Hybrid engines that will be in the Camry will be at like Gen VIII while Ford's Future Fusion concept will be a knock-off of a Gen II Toyota Prius. The Escape Hybrid can't match the economy of a RX400h, which is faster and weighs 500 lbs more. Edmunds says if they use the A/C, the Escape Hybrid falls under 20 MPG!

    Ford Hybrid: the speed and power of a 4-cylinder (0-60 in 9.5 according to Motorweek). The mileage of a V6 (23).

    DrFill


    DrFill
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "The Japanese can get a whole vehicle from concept to showrrom in less than two years."

    That's a bit of a stretch. Based on my supplier viewpoint, they are still on a 3.5 to 4 year cycle, just like the American companies. We are working on '09 and '10 stuff now.
  • day9day9 Member Posts: 57
    image
    Looks pretty nice.
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