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The Future of Saab?

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Comments

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    and what they did is history however. I think Saab would have folded. After Ford got Volvo there was simply no way Saab would have survived by itself. They didn't have the home market any more than they had the export market and with Ford's backing Volvo would have had the money.

     

    The British market that we all remember is all but gone in reality but some of the names carry on. Jaguar, Bentley, Rolls Royce is gone and now under foreign control. Bentley is as much Audi as Saab is GM and no one even suggests it should be dropped. The Mini- Cooper is BMW every inch. These are name plates that meant something and to be honest Saab meant nothing to the majority of buyers let alone enthusiasts of the world. If you were going to put a black line through names just because they lost their identity many more than Saab would be gone.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    " If you were going to put a black line through names just because they lost their identity many more than Saab would be gone."

     

    ...and your point is?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    The point is that cars have become more of an appliance than they once were. There is very little room for "quirky" cars when people can get any number of cars that aren't quirky. It is simply a sign of the times. Saab is simply one of many that have been absorbed by the corporate monsters of the world. Nissan could quite easily be transformed by Renault. After all aren't they planning a Nissan on a Cleo platform? Early on people predicted that Mazda cease to exist because Ford had control. Yet the few Mazda people that remain talked Ford into making a new Rotary after all these years.

     

    Some of the old company will always exist it just has to evolve into the giant automotive melting pot. But even in this melting pot there is some name identification. Just look how many times a whole company was bought just to get the name Jeep. Maybe you are right. Maybe companies like Saab, Jaguar, Bentley, Cooper, Nissan, Mazda should have been allowed to die. Then we could lament their passing and remember them being much better vehicles than they were in real life. But it does seem like it would be a waste of a lot of jobs and factories. So to me I think it is better this way.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    so you are a proponent of efficency in the auto manufacturing industry at the expense of the actual character of the individual brands?

     

    This

    "The point is that cars have become more of an appliance than they once were."

    is not something I will probably ever celebrate as long as I live, even if it keeps auto workers employed and obsolete brand names "current".

     

    And unlike the Saab case, I feel that despite the ownership changes over the years, the Jeeps sold today still share enough Jeeplike characteristics with their ancestors to make the name valid. Now the people-movers DCX intends to market under the Jeep brand in the next few years may yet negate this comment. But as of today, Jeeps are some of the most offroad-worthy vehicles sold, in stock form.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    To be honest I'm a little sad about what's happened to Saab as a brand, particularly since the 2nd-generation 900 came out in '94. I remember the days where my friends' mid-'80s 900s and 9000s were always breaking down and spending a lot of time in the shop. I liked seeing that happen, in a way...now I don't see that happening with the newer models.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I remember the days where my friends' mid-'80s 900s and 9000s were c. I liked seeing that happen, in a way...now I don't see that happening with the newer models.

     

    Huh?

     

    I owned an '86 9000 turbo that was always breaking down and spending a lot of time in the shop. Now that might be your idea of fun, but it certainly wasn't mine. That Saab was possibly the worst car I've ever owned; I unloaded it as soon as the warranty was up.

     

    Bob
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Gosh, I hope I didn't offend you with my remarks.

     

    What I meant was that back in those years, when I was much younger and less mature, I liked seeing the older Saabs broken down on the highway. Now, as a college senior, I personally think that's an inconvenience for the average everyday driver. Was your '86 9000 a 5-speed or automatic? I've driven a few 9000s and they seemed quite fun to drive (when they were running that is).
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Oh yeah what was wrong with your Saab? Was it the way the car was built?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    No offense taken:) It just seemed like a very odd statement to make, that's all.

     

    Problems? Well, we're going back at least 15 years or so, so my memory isn't all that clear. But I do remember a leaking windshield that took 6 trips to the dealer to fix, numerous electrical problems including flicking the high beam switch only to lose the headlights altogether—great fun on a dark country road. I just remember every time I brought it in for the normal scheduled service, there was always a laundry list of other issues that needed to be dealt with.

     

    I knew once the car was out of warranty, it would be very costly to maintain, so I got rid of it. Not only that, but the constant hassle of bring the car in for service gets old very quickly.

     

    It was a 5-speed manual. Great fun when it worked properly. Unfortunately that was rare. The only other cars That I've owned that were as unreliable were an Austin Marina and a VW Quantum, with the Audi 5-cylinder engine. I must have ticked off the the Euro Car God somewhere earlier in my life...

     

    Bob
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    A Quantum? Oh boy, I've heard (and seen) many stories about bad Quantums. My neighbor back home has an '85 wagon that he "restored from the dead," in his own words, after it had been sitting for two years. He claims it runs good, even though the body is shot and it breaks down almost once every two weeks. Remember the Dasher too?
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I think that GM needs to make some unique products and make a better warranty. Drop the financing deals; keep the lease deals. (Mercedes and BMW use those lease deals, but rarely do you see finance deals) The character of Saab (or whatever's left of it at least) can still be preserved if GM really put the $$$$ into it and came out with better products.

     

    Speaking of Subaru, I really hope they don't turn into another cloned GM 0% for 72 brand. We've got enough of those brands already. Chevrolet, Pontiac, GMC Truck, Buick and Saturn.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    As a consumer do you want to pay 4, 6, 8 or 10 percent? I want more options and a good car but I would rather pay a little as possible to get one. And leasing doesn't work for everyone. Not if you don't want to pay the maximum insurance rate in California. I just saw a add for rebates and discounts on a Mercedes C-230 on TV tonight. Wasn't even a lease.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I'd pay 4% on a car loan, but not 10%. Everybody wants more options and a great car at a low price, but people have different definitions for what a "great car" is and what a "low price" is. So a Pontiac G6 might sound great to Bob Smith but that same Pontiac G6 may seem horrible to Billy Jones. "Low Price" could mean $5,000 to Bob Smith and that same phrase could mean $35,000 for Billy Jones.

     

    But what I'm trying to say is that most of the time, the deals posted by luxury car companies (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Infiniti, Lexus) are mostly lease deals.

     

    And financing or paying cash doesn't always work for everybody either. Everybody just has different needs and for everybody, there's a different item or service that fits them best.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    I really don't know what to make of this news, that GM will build a small Caddie for Europe based on the Saab 9-3...

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Articles/articleId=104347

     

    Oh well, I guess it isn't any screwier than a Saab based on a Chevy truck.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is they speculate the new model will likely find its way to America as the new small Cadillac, which I guess would slot below CTS in the line-up. Where it would kill 9-3 sales for Saab? Not good to be Saab right now...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cartalkcartalk Member Posts: 147
    This article in today's Financial Times paints a more grim future for Saab beyond these "quick fixes" to shore up sales:

     

    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/73510e88-6375-11d9-bec2-00000e2511c8.htm- - - l

     

    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/1fe2bf3c-6337-11d9-bec2-00000e2511c8.htm- - l

     

    The link above is basically the same article with two additional paragraphs.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'd be reluctant to buy a Saab until after the study, after reading that article, over concern about buying an orphan brand. I'll bet GM is ruing the day it bought Saab, or invested in Fiat, or Isuzu, for that matter. What were they thinking?

     

    Decisions always appear clearer in retrospect, of course, but Toyota and Honda have grown internally, almost exclusively.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    like that wasn't predictable: the 9-2x sold dismally compared to GM forecasts. As will the 9-7, probably, although since it is one of the magic vehicles (to American consumers) better known as an SUV, it will probably do somewhat better than the 9-2.

     

    This is like the third mention I have seen in news about GM of the possibility/likelihood of closing the Trollhattan factory. I bet it will happen. And after that, regardless of what vehicles are available ten years from now with the Saab badge on them, Saab will cease to exist.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    The 9-2X "isn't meeting it's sales targets". Who wants to bet the Saabillac won't either. Caddie has already been down that road with the Cimarron.

     

    Unlike the J-Car the 9-3 is a fine automobile but like the J-Car it's just too small to be a Cadillac. The CTS is as small as a Caddie can credibly get, at least in North America (I doubt the brand has any juice in Europe).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I hope they don't close the Trollhattan plant- if they did, what would Saab be? Just another GM Rebate brand with $3000 cash back?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The more I read about it, the more I think Saab is doomed.

     

    Look at how many brands GM has to revive - Saab, Buick, Pontiac and Saturn.

     

    That is a handful for any company, let alone one that hasn't shown much savvy in reviving a dying brand, or even halting the decline of its sliding market share.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    GM could dump a few brands- Buick and Saturn.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Yes, I think Saab's days are numbered.

     

    The chances for survival of the 4 you listed, from best to worst, are Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, and Saab, IMO.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I would put Buick higher, although I am sure GM would slough off a lot of other stuff before they would let either Buick or Pontiac die.

     

    You can rebadge an Opel Vectra, add leather, and call it a Saab. The days are already gone when being a Saab meant anything in particular, but cars with Saab badges will be sold for some time, I think.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    ...You're right, they can always do that. After all, GM has that one down cold!
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I'd rather be driving a Saab and not a Buick.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ...... **The more I read about it, the more I think Saab is doomed** ..l.o.l.....

     

                 They were about 5 seconds away from "Tubesville" before GM took them over, I mean they had nothing .. dealers were either dropping or doing a "pass" on the idea of a new sign at their store ...

     

                       At least now, they have a chance with a huge advertising budget, a new awareness to the buying public, a large dealer group (finally) some new techno deals and much better styles .... the question is, whether or not GM grabbed them too late and they missed the market, I wouldn't want to be throwing those dice ... we will see ..

     

                                  Terry.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Hindsight strongly suggests that Toyota's and Honda's model of growth through focusing intensely on product and processes is proving far superior to the the domestics' model of growth through acquisitions. While they might not publicly acknowledge it, I can't imagine any GM executive now thinking that buying Saab or investing in Fiat were good moves. The same goes for Ford's purchase of Jaguar and Land Rover. Oh sure, some acquisitions and investments worked out well; Chrysler's/Jeep, Ford/Mazda, Ford/Volvo, GM/Hummer, GM/Subaru, BMW/Mini (or is the Mini brand a remnant of the failed BMW/Rover acquisition?). It's now clear, though, that the Big 2 1/2's strategies weakened, not strengthened, them.

     

    In retrospect, GM would have been better off not making any acquisitions, merging Olds and Saturn , and putting all its resources into continuous improvement of products and processes. I guess that's why hindsight is golden.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    should just cancel all its brands and rebadge them as follows:

     

    CAR

    SLIGHTLY SPORTY CAR

    CUSHY CAR

    DENT-FREE CAR

    PREMIUM CAR

    PRETENTIOUS FOREIGN CAR

    TRUCK

     

    have I left any out?

     

    they could just call their cars by numbers, '1' for compacts, '2' for midsizers, and '3' for full-size cars. Wonder when PRETENTIOUS FOREIGN CAR, excuse me Saab, will get a full-size car. Think of it, you could rebadge a Bonneville as a 9-8.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    What about a

     

    NOT SO PREMIUM BUT OH SO PRETENTIOUS FOREIGN REBADGE OF A CUSHY TRUCK?

     

    So when is the 9-7x coming???
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    I just about fell out of my chair laughing at that rebadging. Classic.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    GM is one step ahead of me - they are publicly speculating as to whether or not there will be a next-gen Bonneville. Cancel it and call the existing car the Saab 9-8, sell it for a few years with no updates. Why not? What is a Saab, after all? I am sure GM will figure it is a Saab as long as they move the ignition key to the center console. Better yet, make it keyless start.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    "I am sure GM will figure it is a Saab as long as they move the ignition key to the center console."

     

    Hell they didn't even figure that out that much with the 9-2x.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    GM didn't figure out that a Saab isn't a Saab without the ignition on the center console. The ignition on the 9-2X is where Subaru puts it- behind the steering wheel. I guess GM thinks a Saab badge on a car makes it a Saab.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    wanted to keep the tradition alive they would keep the Saab as a low volume weird car only driven by school teachers with patches on their sweaters. Or in the case of the old 9000 fifteen yuppies bought them. Doesn't matter where the key was the Saab was a strange car and heading down the drain. Whatever time GM has them is more time than they would have had without GM.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    how much longer do you think that will be? Not for Saab, they are already as good as dead, I mean for the Saab brand? :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I don't know. They still make Avantes somewhere don't they? Aren't they simply Corvettes reskined now? People will often buy something just to be different and that neet little badge Saab has might work for a few people for a very long time. Saab has always been an also ran vehicle. People had a much better Idea of what a Volvo was and it had an image that made people admire it for what it was. Saab never had that image, except to a few devoted Saab owners and a hand full of enthusiasts. That was the problem, other than quirky and different Saab was not that outstanding of a vehicle.

     

    You may be right that there was no reason to keep it alive when GM first bought them but it was GMs money and it may still allow some profit. GM bought Saab because it was for sale, pure and simple. Not much different than Chrysler and Desoto.
  • cartalkcartalk Member Posts: 147
    Maybe they need the cash to pay the $2 billion to get out of the Fiat deal.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    blames "the media" for criticizing badge-engineering
    (9-2X, 9-7X)...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/22/business/22saab.html?

    LOL, he should shut up and build us some real Saabs.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Or at least some Saabs that look like real Saabs. Any Joe on the street could park a TrailBlazer, Envoy, Bravada, Ranier and 9-7X all in a row and the only way he'd be able to tell them apart would be from their badges and front grilles.

    At least the 9-3 doesn't look like anything close to a Malibu.

    But, Badge Engineering does work sometimes. I bought an Infiniti I35 that looks a lot like the previous generation Maxima because underneath, its basically the exact car, right down to the Beam suspension.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    What attributes led you to select the I35 over the lower priced Maxima?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    in the article where Lutx says that some minor interior and exterior tweaks seem to be enough differentiation between the TB and the Envoy.

    Those two models DEFINE badge engineering. And the 9-7 is no different. The 9-2x was exactly the same - a WRX with a Saab badge for $thousands more.

    The 9-3 is not quite the same - here Saab actually had engineers develop a car using only the platform of the Malibu/Vectra, from what I understand. I really hope the 9-7 doesn't sell at all, not because I hate Saab, but because maybe someone over at GM would wake up finally.

    In the meantime, it would be interesting to see Saab get sold again so soon, with half its models half-baked GM (and GM partner) reskins.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    One commentator on the blog said that instead of the 9-7 they should have come up with a 9-3/9-5 wagon to compete with the Audi/BMW/Volvo wagons. I think that's spot-on. Saab didn't need an SUV, it needed a "crossover".
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Saab didn't need an SUV, it needed a "crossover"."

    And the only reason they didn't get a rebadge of one of those from GM is that GM itself was late to the party on this count, with the Equinox deemed too small and nothing larger in the GM pot (except the SRX, and oooohhhh, that's a Cadillac, can't share that!). You would think they could have stretched the Equinox or something, and made it worthy of the Saab badge, with a third row seat to boot. But that would have required actual vehicle development, something GM is not prepared to invest in for Saab at this point.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Actually, it ended up being about the same as the Maxima. I got the prestige of the Infiniti brand for like $300 over the price of a Maxima. I paid $25,800 for a brand new I35.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Hopefully the next 9-2 and the upcoming 9-6 (Subaru B9X Tribeca) actually have some Saab character...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Hopefully the next 9-2 and the upcoming 9-6 (Subaru B9X Tribeca) actually have some Saab character...

    Which is? Hopefully you mean more than just a ignition key on the floor.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    At least the key on the floor and a turbocharged engine. The rest, I really don't know.
  • bcoolbcool Member Posts: 59
    How about an AWD 9-5 Wagon? Kinda like the Volvo V70XC. I can picture my Aero, modified with big plastic fenders, all terrain tires, 7 inches of ground clearance and AWD. Add an extra cup holder up front and an i-pod port.

    SAAB should also use the "9" designation to denote "pure" SAAB products. GM derivatives such as the 9-7x should be denoted by a "5", for example - 5-7x. Subaru maybe by a "7" - the 9-2x becomes a 7-2x, 9-6x ==> 7-6x.

    SAAB should take advantage of the financial backing by GM, but distance themselves significantly from the GM product line. The SAAB 9-7x, may be a little late to the game, but her real challenge will the the sky rocketing price of gas. A higher MPG crossover, like the Mitsu Endeaver and Highlander would have been a better pursuit.
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