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Hybrids and HOV Lanes
Here's the place to discuss various initiatives around the country for hybrid and electric vehicle use of HOV lanes.
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-Joey
I'm sure it's just a typo, but you must mean "1 person driving a Prius..." 2 people in the Prius at 50mpg is obviously better than two people in a Corolla at 30mpg.
jprice
___I believe Gagrice did get it right. 2 people in a car getting 30 mpg is better then 1 in a car receiving 50 mpg. Not including emissions of course And what about the individual driving the Corolla receiving > 45 mpg and the Hybrid driver receiving less?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Are you sure you really read what I said? Try it again...
John P.
Anyway, now they are trying to backpedal by allowing single-passenger cars, but only if the car is a hybrid and only if it gets 45+ mpg. Again, let's force them to buy the cars we think are the right ones to buy. I think Ford is right to protest. The real purpose of the HOV lanes were to decrease smog and traffic congestion, not decrease gas consumption. By unecessarily tacking on the hybrid and mpg requirements, the legislature is unfairly excluding PZEV (or even SULEV) vehicles, and ICE vehicles that get excellent mileage.
IMHO, the whole HOV lane thing should be scrapped anyway as a complete (and predictable) failure. Gee, I wonder how many of the California legislators carpool to work?
I think you're correct. That is probably a contributing factor of increased sales of large crew cab pickup trucks with diesel engines. They are not as heavily regulated as cars and the natural reaction is to avoid unfair & unbalanced regulation.
On that note, any ideas how many qualifying vehicles are on the road right now (ie what are my odds in the lottery)? If they are going to give out 50,000 passes, any estimates of how many applicants?
BTW, my estimated value of a pass is easily above $1500. If you cross the Bay Bridge today, it's $3/day (or roughly $750/year).
They will be issued first come first serve, and will probably be tied to either the vehicle and owner or just the vehicle.
Here in the SF Bay Area we have the "diamond" or HOV lanes to allow carpooling where, depending on location, 2 or sometimes 3 people in a car qualify as a "carpool". The hours listed will vary slightly, in my area the hours are 5-10 am and 3-7 pm. The last hour of the stated time period is useless because the carpoolers have already arrived at work! I don't know if the CHP (California Highway Patrol) will still issue a $271 ticket or not, but it seems stupid to me. Also, the traffic on the opposite, or non-commute direction is subject to the SAME traffic controls as the commute direction!!
There are hundreds of bills on Gov. Schwarzeneger's desk waiting to be signed before an upcoming deadline and hopefully one of those bills he should quickly approve is the one that allows hybrids/high mpg vehicles to drive in the diamond lanes even with only a driver. Let us only hope.
Thanks,
Rich
Nope, or at least not for long. LA has the most hybrids in the country, and those HOV lanes will simply be clogged up - with single drivers, this time...
___A former and very astute hybrid driver brought up a good point in another Hybrid forum the other day about HOV lanes If they are for saving fuel, the powers that be should only allow large SUV’s in them. I can almost guarantee that more fuel would be saved by sticking our hybrid’s in the stop and go traffic then the same number of H2’s or Escalade’s.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Encouraging the purchase of Hybrids is just the first step in an evolving process that will take decades to get the general public SERIOUS about saving fuel and lowering greenhouse gas emissions.
Right now, we need to get people serious about BOTH lower emissions and higher MPG. The ICE versions of the cars you mentioned are not low emissions, just relatively high MPG. That's only half the battle.
If we get people to understand that they can drive Hybrids with no compromises (don't have to plug it in, etc) and SOON they will have options of the 7-passenger Highlander Hybrid to buy when they need seven butts in a car (which some people REALLY MUST HAVE to fit their lives) which will help even more.
Small steps, mis amigos, small steps.....:)
So you are saying that a manufacturor that achieves the high MPG with a hybrid design yet uses a dirtier ICE would be fine? That is what the law implies...
And I am agreeing with the former post that started this whole train; the use of HOV lanes (if that is what is desired) should be based on MPG alone, not a certain technology. That is the "baby step", because when people seek higher MPG, the manufacturors will build the cars, less gas will be used, things will improve. The focus on hybrid is foolish and trendy.
Hybrid is just the first technology that has allowed car makers to build production cars with low emissions and high MPG. (Well, not actually the FIRST EVER, but the first that could appeal to the masses.)
It is not the "be all end all" of High MPG technology. But it is undeniably the "First" of those technologies.
We are entirely correct to "focus" on this technology, because it's what has allowed us to make any gains at all. It is not the "only" high MPG technology being worked on - it is merely the FIRST ONE THAT COULD BE MASS PRODUCED AND SOLD. For that alone it deserves it's props.....
As for the "trendy" part - I agree that all those people who might want a Prius to show their "Green-ness" or to keep up with the Hollywood trend might be engaging in the trend factor.
But it's not "foolish" to focus on the only clean (meaning Diesel is NOT clean) currently available technology to the masses that provides something that no other technology in the history of autos has provided.
I'm getting 55.6 MPG on my current tank with my 2004 HCH after 240 miles into the tank, all in City driving. So if it's a TREND to save money at the pump, then call me Mr. Trendy !!!
Emission based arguments bring in a little more complexity to the discussion. Are we to assume that Accord PZEV getting 26 mpg results in less overall emissions than Accord Hybrid ULEV-BIN 2 getting 30 mpg? But worth a discussion nonetheless.
Oh, and I'm not sure what "manufacturer" has got to do with this debate. While Ford could cry "foul" and say that the law benefits "imports", does it really? I would think Accord Hybrid wouldn't qualify either. Nor would RX400H when it comes around.
Oh, just a little something about a Brown Smog Cloud, that's all, and greenhouse gases, global warming, carcinogens in exhaust, etc. etc.
Fact #1: Government WANTS TO ENCOURAGE car buyers to help in the fight against polluting the earth.
Fact #2: Drivers in HOV lanes "generally" get to and from work faster than drivers in the regular lanes (at times when it is all not gridlock of course).
Assumption: If you give people a benefit (getting to and from work faster) and tell them they can do that if they will merely buy this ONE certain type of car (and you will get a tax benefit also) that will lower emissions and save them money at the pump every time, people might just want to accept that particular combination of benefits.
Dangling the carrot, so to speak.
And the ICE cars that might get "equivalent" MPG are usually not SULEV or PZEV rated vehicles.
Makes perfect, logical sense to me......and to the California legislature and legislatures from other states also.....
You are correct. What about the Honda Civic CNG. It is cleaner than any hybrid according to the EPA. Do they get to use the HOV Lanes? I lean more toward minimum 3 per car. That is more of a car pool than two people going to work or one person in a hybrid IMO.
Please go back and re-read Post #40 on this board. I completely explain in that post, in detailed logical progression, WHY we should "focus" on Hybrid technology right now.
I reread your post #40. It is not a bad idea just not likely to become a reality. They are not having an easy time with components, batteries to be precise. Check RX400h board. Looks like it is now postponed till 2006. I still think we are missing the boat by not promoting modern diesel technology in addition to the other alternatives. It is like putting all your eggs in one basket. A diesel that gets great mileage should have the same rights as a hybrid for using the HOV lanes. And the emissions thing is just a smoke screen that few believe. It is all politically motivated by a few misinformed people in our government.
Just as important is encouraging a greater commitment on the part of auto manufacturers. They have to make build commitments well ahead of the time a model goes on sale, based on projected sales. When there's hesitation in the marketplace or the market is unknown, the number of vehicles an automaker will commit to build will be conservative. That's been the case across the board with the hybrids we have now and the ones coming shortly.
In light of that, any move that encourages a much greater number of people to step up and buy hybrids is a very good thing. As greater numbers of people understand how much time they can save on their daily commute by buying a hybrid, sales should increase substantially. As sales increase, auto manufacturers will become more willing to commit to building larger numbers of hybrid models.
Allowing hybrids in HOV lanes is not a do-all, end-all move, but it sure is a move in the right direction. That said, the state's decision seems shortsighted in excluding hybrid SUVs that won't reach the 45 mpg requirement. SUVs, of course, are vehicles that need as much encouragement as possible to achieve higher fuel economy and reduced emissions, which hybrid technology brings to the party.
I don't understand this statement. If two cars are PZEV and get the same MPG, they will pollute exactly the same, regardless of how they achieve that MPG reading. Hybrids are not "cleaner" than cars with the same efficiency (assuming the cars acutally get the MPGs in question). Actually, considering that Toyota's own information indicates that the Prius costs more environmentally to manufacture, a case could be made that it is worse for the environment than an ICE only that achieved the same MPG.
Please remember this is a theoretical argument, that is, I'm not sure other cars can achieve the Prius MPG. However the question is - what is best for HOV lanes?
Also, the Prius is not designed to specifically reduce greenhouse gasses...