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Honda Civic Sedan 2006

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  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Even though the Mazda3 is what some people would say a better car, not everybody likes the Mazda3.

    The Corolla, Focus, and Cobalt, all outsell the 3, which many people on this board would say is the best small car.

    And why is that?

    It's because those cars (Corolla, Focus, Cobalt) appeal to the masses. The majority of buyers aren't looking for handling and a sporty ride, they just want something affordable, comfortable, safe, and reliable that gets them from Point A to Point B safely, cheaply, and comfortably.

    The Civic outsells the 3, and the Civic is almost never sold into fleets. The 3, however, can be found in many fleets, including those of Enterprise and Budget Rent A Car.

    And many people, when seeing the sticker price of a Mazda3s, think 'Geez, $22K for a compact car? I could get an Accord!'

    And yes, $22K buys an Accord LX, or even a Hyundai Sonata with the V6.

    People Buy Civics because:
    1) RESALE VALUE
    2) good crash test scores
    3) reliable, durable, and nicely put together
    4) because its got an H badge on the front

    People are attracted by the brand name. I guarantee that if the Civic were sold under an unknown brand in the US (like Chery, Daewoo or Rover) it would get far fewer sales than it does currently with the Honda badge resting on the front.

    I might be biased though, being the owner of a Honda Civic myself... :D
  • user1235user1235 Posts: 84
    I felt like I have to debunk your misinformation. First, Scion is 100% Totyota, in fact these are japanese manufactured Toyota cars (even better than US made Toyotas). Second, the tC is a high quality extravagently equipped car (dual moonroof, ABS, knee airbags, pioneer stereo, 17" wheels, 4 disc brakes, steering wheel audio controls, high quality fabric and interior, 2.4L Camry engine), which is not only youth youth oriented. It appeals to would be lexus owners that don't quite have the money for a lexus IS. It also appeals to the tuner crowd, as well as college student. Nothing about that car is cheap.

    And as for #555, stop with your $22K BS, a mazda 3i equipped comparably to a Civic sedan (either LX equipement or EX) would be CHEAPER, get it ? it's true the mazda offers expensive options such as leather, navigation, xenon, etc which could make it cost $22K, but so would a civic if you add these options from third party after-market.

    #554, Scion and Civic coupe are indeed competeting models, except that even the top of the line civic EX falls short compared to the tC. But at least the civic is cheaper. Not so with the new civic, which will cost as much as a scion tC, yet still fall behind in performance and build quality (Toyota Hiroshima japan plant vs Honda midwest USA).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    The other reason the Civic outsells the Mazda3 is because Mazda isn't trying to outsell the Civic. They know they have a niche car in the small-car field, one that is pricier than most, and that's fine with them. They'll keep selling the 3 to people who want a superior driving experience and superior style, and let Honda, Toyota, and others sell their econoboxes. What is intriguing about the new Civic is that Honda appears to be trying to move closer to Mazda territory by improving both the driving experience and style of the Civic.
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    user1235,

    You are clearly enthralled with the Mazda3 and the Scion tC, and you have made that quite apparent on this board by 2006 Civic-bashing. However, you are not well informed about the genesis of the Scion brand or of Toyota's marketing strategy in creating it. You may, wish to read here for a bit more depth:

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-01-scion_x.htm

    http://www.forbes.com/2004/10/12/cz_sk_1012feat.html

    I believe that we can agree that the Echo is Toyota's bottom-of-the-barrel entry level model in this country. The Forbes article above stated: "The first two Scion models, the xA and xB, are Japanese market derivatives of the Toyota Echo."

    Honda does not market a model in that category in the United States.

    You have extolled the virtues of the Mazda3 styling, versus the yet-to-be-seen styling of the ACTUAL 2006 Civics. Yes, we've all seen the taped up spy shots and I think that, by the little I've seen of it, the sedan looks quite good. I, for one, have never cared for the styling of the Mazda3. So, it's a question of your aesthetics versus my aesthetics. Some people love spinach, others don't. Personal preferences do not make you, or the others in this discussion right or wrong.
  • user1235user1235 Posts: 84
    I quoted you cold hard specs, and cold hard facts about pricing. Yet people here continue to throw baseless statements like "mazda 3 costs $22K", or "scion is a bottom of the barrel brand" or "scion is only for college kids" or "civic does not compete with the scion or the mazda" and so forth. Get over you shallow USA today based information that scion is for kids, etc - calling these cars scions is a pure marketing decisions. The scion cars are toyotas that don't have anything to do with each other except the fact that someone thought they would sell more if called scion. tC is nothing to do with xA/xB and as I said offers staggering features for the price (which is not that cheap either).

    Even putting aside subjective styling issue (and btw, I love the way current civic sedan looks) or comparisons of handling and interior to the yet unknown 2006 civic. The cold hard facts about performance, equipment, features and pricing from what is known so far shows that mazda and scion outperform the civic and cost about the same. Civic outsells them mostly based on brand loyalty, proven reliability and resale value as well as fuel economy. You make your own decision based on what's important to you, but I think it's a shame Honda could not offer some versions of the new civic which would surpass the mazdas and scions.

    better luck next time
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    So far Scion has only been about value and image. Performance has not been in its lingo. The Xa and Xb have no peers as they are severely underpowered (okay maybe Daewoo is comparable). 0-60 times these days in the near or just over double digits are unheard of. I actually like them but in spite of their poor perfomance. The tC is an adequate performer but has poor fuel economy when compared even to the Camry and Accord 4 cylinder vehicles. If the Civic EX has 160 hp, then I believe the performance nod will probably go to the Civic over the tC. The Si will be in a league the tC will only be able to dream of when it comes to performance.
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    The Civic will be back at invoice within the first 6 months. There is just too much competition in the markeplace now. The only way it won't be down to invoice in 6 months is if it sells like a blockbuster hit. If the increase is kept down to a $750 increase, the EX will still undercut the tC with its $200 dollar 2006 increase by around $600.

    If the Civic actually gets slightly better fuel economy (the new 1.8 is reportedly thriftier than the outgoing 1.7), it may also get more than the present 8 highway and 10 city better miles per gallon. 10-12 mpg would really hit the spot especially in this economy car category and with the gas prices as they are.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    You might have presented "cold hard facts", but folks have done the same thing for you...you know showing the facts.

    Fact, we know so far that the Civic will get a new 1.8L engine that produces 140 hp. We also know that this new Civic will get better fuel economy.

    Rumor: The Civic EX will have 160 hp...I'm starting not to believe it.

    Fact, the Scion tC will most likely ONLY compete with the Honda civic Coupe (specifically the EX and Si models) so Honda really doesn't have to worry much since coupes sales aren't as high as sedan ones. And they will sell every coupe they make..trust me. They won't have a problem at all.

    Fact: The Mazda3 is a better value than the current Civic sedan in most ways (except fuel economy) and its a great car. Everyone acknowledges that in here it seems.

    What we do not know is if the Mazda3 i or s will perform better in 0-60 times or not. I'm willing to bet it will beat the "i" model and be comparable with the "s" one.

    Example, you keep going on and on about how the Civic won't be as fast as the Mazda3 or Scion tC? How do you know this, based on horsepower???

    Cold hard fact, I think not...
    That could or could not be the case. Case in point. The current generation Accord is rated at 160hp but its faster than any other four cylinder in this class and is equal to or at times faster than the 175hp I4 found in the Altima.

    Horsepower can be great..but its all in the gearing my friend...and Honda is good at that game...

    Why? Because Honda underates power, has strong gearing and the car has a 5spd automatic. Look it up, the Altima and Accord are usually neck in neck in 0-60 times, yet the Altima has more power. 15 hp to be exact.

    What makes you think Honda can't do the same thing with this Civic?

    Also, we ALL KNOW that when comparable equipped the Mazda3 can be had for a lower price than the Civic. But like someone here said, some folks will end up ONLY seeing fully loaded Mazda3s on the lot and come away thinking that most of them cost that much.

    At my local dealership, most of the Mazda3 models are "S" models with everything EXCEPT leather. From Xenons to TPMS, etc. Those cars can get expensive quickly, but when similarly equipped the Mazda3 is usually cheaper.

    As a matter of fact, the Mazda3s is cheaper than the Focus ST when similarly equipped.

    I guess its also a "Cold hard fact" that you keep saying the Civic is a "flop"

    Right...
  • gtbiogtbio Posts: 1
    Wow! Kids...Kids. First off, let's look at the cheap fit and finish of the mazda 3 shall we. Open the glove box and it tumbles out of the box. You have a pleasant view of the dash board as the cabin is made so that the stereo is at eye level. No side air bags and the only thing that makes it look somewhat pleasing to kids is the big wheels on the 2.3L. Those bulbass fog lights look as cheap as the doors feel as you close them. So, for 22k or 19K....or 18K...it's a lot flash with no substance. Hmmm...kinda like user1235's comments....anyway you slice it....it's flash with no substance. Oh ya, let's talk to an engineering. The cylinder heads are machined to a higher micrometer thickness, yielding more friction. Long term the engine in the mazda 3 will "burn out" a lot faster than the Honda. Also, you should get your hands out of your pants and go feel the shifter and clutch on the Mazda 3......cause it's terrible. When you save up your pennies to buy a real car....go check out the RX-8. Different engineering team and different technology. For now the mazda 3 remains what it has been from the start....A misinformed kids car.

    GT
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I don't know about that Backy...

    Because in Canada, the Number 1 selling car is the Civic...guess who is the 2nd best seller..that's right the Mazda3.

    So if The Mazda3 can be the 2nd best selling car in Canada, what makes you think Mazda wouldn't won't the same thing to happen in the U.S.

    If enough demand was there for the Mazda3 it would be a better seller. Though sales are up this year compared to last.

    I get your point on them being a "niche" company, but truth be told if Mazda could sell more, they would...that's proven by the fact that the Mazda3 is the Second best selling car in Canada.

    As a matter of fact, during some months, the Mazda3 sells better than the Civic in Canada.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    " but I think it's a shame Honda could not offer some versions of the new civic which would surpass the mazdas and scions. "

    How do you know the new Civic cant surpass Mazdas or Scions?
    Have you read a review about?

    and you keep saying Mazda 3 and Scion outperform the new Civic.
    Do you have the 0-60 rating? Have you test drove it?

    Wow you know so much about the 2006 Civic. :surprise:
    Or are you just making a blank statement...
  • The new Civic will have a base engine with 140hp@6300 rpm and 128lb/ft@4300 rpm. The 2.0l in the 3i has 148hp@6500 rpm and 135lb/ft@4500 rpm. The Civic is only giving up 8hp and 7lb/ft to the 3, but it is getting it's peak power at a slightly lower rpm compared to the 3. Not really that much of a difference. I don't know how the new SAE guidelines will change these figures (I think the Honda figures may already be based on the new regs)

    Combined with the fact that the Civic will have a 5 speed auto compared to the 4 speed auto on the 3i, I would think that the acceleration will be so similar that the difference will be imperceptible to the average driver. What won't be imperceptible is the money spent at the gas pump.

    Now, if the interior shots of the european model are what we are going to get for the NA market, I don't know how much I like that. I'd have to see it in person but I think it will probably be more toned down for us.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    "Yet people here continue to throw baseless statements like "mazda 3 costs $22K", or "scion is a bottom of the barrel brand" or "scion is only for college kids" or "civic does not compete with the scion or the mazda" and so forth."

    You know who else is throwing baseless statements? You! :)

    You haven't even driven the car (or read a review about it) and you're already saying its not as good as Mazda 3 or Scion.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
    With the hostility and personal comments. Members who cannot cease with the arguing and accusations are at risk of having their posting priviliges revoked in this discussion.

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  • user1235user1235 Posts: 84
    because it makes people realize how a brand that commands market share due to its past record, leverages that position to keep charging a premium while offering less. If you're at the top it gives you an advantage because some people buy what they see other people drive based on the belief that if a lot of people have it, it must be good. My point is that it may not be the best.

    2006 Scion tC (w/side airbags) vs 2006 Honda Civic EX coupe

    engine: 2.4L 160 hp > 1.8L 140 hp
    airbags: side, curtain, knee > side
    wheels: 17" > 16" (or 15")
    moonroof: dual panoramic > single
    company: Toyota > Honda
    made in: Japan > USA

    Price: $17365 vs $17000 (at least)

    I need to buy a car in the next few months (like many other people). Now convince me why I should buy the civic over the scion ? unless the reviews of the civic say something like "despite it's smaller engine and wheels, and the impressive skid pad and braking performance of the scion (due to its large 4 wheel disc brakes) and it's chrome exhaust and tight suspension.....despite all this we somehow felt that the new civic handles better. And despite the near lexus quietness of the scion, the civic felt more refined with amazingly low levels of noise and vibration". Resale value ? scion is a toyota and so far depreciation of the scion tC has been extremely low. Fuel economy ? have to give it to the civic. Styling, interiror quality ? scion = proven, new civic = unknown
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,803
    ...Combined with the fact that the Civic will have a 5 speed auto compared to the 4 speed auto on the 3i, I would think that the acceleration will be so similar that the difference will be imperceptible to the average driver. What won't be imperceptible is the money spent at the gas pump...

    I think talking about acceleration times and AUTO in the same sentence is SACRELIGIOUS!!!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    All '06 Civics will have standard side curtains and side bags. Also it's highly unlikely the new Civic EX will have only 15" wheels. We don't know which car will handle and brake better until the '06 Civic is out. And as soon as that happens, we will be able to assess the styling and interior quality. Patience. You can't buy a '06 Civic now even if you wanted to, so no need to rush to judgment.
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    Scion has already had to redesign the tC stereo door as they kept falling off. Hopefully the price increased 2006 with modifications for the "proven with problems" interior will reverse this problem and the moonroof/deflector problems also. I don't think a less than 1 year model with noted problems makes any design "proven" unless it proves that Scion has some 1st year problems like most other cars.

    Also here in the Southeast at my local dealer the 2006 tC manual with airbag package is $17845. Once again the gap may be bigger than you think between it and the 2006 Civic EX when the invoice and below prices arrive.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    I'll just wait till it comes out... then i'll comment on the new Civic.
    Theres nothing we can say now, we dont know how quick it is and we dont know how it handles. So dont jump to conclusions.
  • Of course a manual will wield better acceleration times. But I'm willing to bet that most Mazda 3i's are autos, as well as most of the new Civics (not the Si). In this case, the average driver wouldn't be able to really notice a difference in acceleration. Even if both cars were manual, I don't think the average driver would be able to notice much of a difference.

    I guess we will know more pretty soon, since that ride and drive event for dealers and salesmen is coming up next week I think.
  • user1235user1235 Posts: 84
    to put it differently a=F/m, so if the mass (=weight) is constant and you increase the power (F) you will get more accelaration. Of course the drag coefficient also matters, but a car with 160 hp will generally accelarate faster then a car with 140 hp. And that's a fact.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    Weight isn't constant. Nor is torque, gearing (already mentioned), and electronics (e.g.some cars with automatics hesitate for a split second when floored). Everything else being equal, the car with 160 hp will accelerate faster than one with 140.
  • chidorochidoro Posts: 125
    This is a thread about 2006 Civic information, not a personal and rather sad diatribe by a particular anti-honda poster. User.... your posts are out of line from the general outline of this thread, and completely out of place. You have no point or information about the soon to be released Civic except that there are other vehicles you find a better value.

    Please, refer to the title of this thread, then read what you are about to hit "enter" and post with, and then, decide if that particular drivel belongs in this forum. Based off of your track record, I will guess no. Maybe it belongs in a heated thread that includes your anti-civic vehicles, but not in a thread that is about discussing the leaked details of the new civic.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    And Toyota acknowledges this. Afterall, it is priced below and positioned under Toyota in all respects.

    Recently, the average age for Honda, Toyota and to an extent Nissan's buyer's bases have increased with each redesign. So it seems that buyers of the new Accord, Camries, Civic and Corollas of the world were probably repeat buyers who are driving up the aveage buyers age. And that makes perfect sense when you think about it.

    For example, my mother was 23 at the time when she got her first Honda. It was an 1983 Honda Civic, which at that time was a compact car that was reliable and had a low price. She was pregnant with me at the time and buy the time I was born, she upgraded to the 1984 Accord. She has since bought a 1992 Honda Accord, 1995 Honda Passport and a 2003 Honda Odyssey. Now, at age 43 (twenty years!!!!), she is getting ready to get a Honda Pilot EXL (2006) By the time I finish college and get a good job, I'll be getting my mother an Acura TL (her first Acura)

    So basically, my mother is aging with Honda and will eventually move over to Acura. She bought Honda because it was the best car she ever had (after a couple of Escorts, Chevelles, etc.)

    The poster "Anonymouspost" is another good example of this. I think her first car was a 1992 Accord EX Coupe. She's literally been with Honda since. And has since had Civics, Accords (on her third 7th gen model) and an Odyssey. ( I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example!)

    I, on the other hand, was not at all interested in the Accord, Camry, Civic or Corolla's styling when I got my first car last year. The cars were nice, but the styling didn't do much for me. But I knew they were good cars because I grow up in them. I'm 19 (almost twenty) a mere 3 years younger than my mother was when she first got her 83 Civic. The Civic appealed to her back in 85, but it doesn't appeal to me in 05 (06, I like so far). My sister, who is four years older than me doesn't like the current Civic either.

    That's what scares the heck out of Honda, Toyota and Nissan (somewhat). Younger folks aren't buying their products like they did back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s. The lower prices of those days are gone, as well as the sportiness(especially Honda) but that could change with the new Civic. Also the latest small cars from these brands get bigger and bigger with each generation. The current Corolla and Civic are as big as the Accord and Camrys of the 90s.

    So this has become a bittersweet thing for these companies. On one hand, they have a loyal base of customers who repeatedly buy their new products. But these customers are aging and the younger folks are buying up other cars (the reason Mazda and Mitsubishi have younger buying ages, and probably lower sells too.)

    Then they have Kia and Hyundai, who are improving OVERNIGHT it seems in quality and having cars at lower prices.

    So Toyota, like always, usually leads the pack, and they came out with Scion to try and draw in the younger buyers into the brand. The xA and xB are most definitely entry-level cars because they lack the size, power and price of the compact Civic, Corolla, Sentra and other cars of today. The Echo was Toyota's attempt at this, but it was ugly (subjective).

    Honda is doing similar things as well, but they don't have to worry about the aging demographic as much as Toyota does (Ages 56 vs. 52 with the Camry and Accord) That's why Honda isn't introducing a brand under them, but instead coming out with the FIT (hatch and sedan) and they already have the Element to compete with the xB. The FIT, in hatchback form will compete with the xA. The Civic coupe, of course, will compete with the Scion tC.

    Nissan is doing similar things as well. They'll be coming out with smaller sedan under the Sentra, and a small hatchback and coupe in 2007. The Nissan CUBE isn't coming here unfortunately.

    These companies are trying to cater to the younger, college-bound crowd. Like they did back in the day when my mother was my age. So today's FIT is more in line with yesterday's Honda Civic..and today's tC is more in line with the Celicas of yore.

    And thus, Scion is an Entry-level brand that competes with Honda's Element and soon-to-be FIT...to cater to the younger folks who can't afford the Civics, Corollas and other cars of the world. The tC is basically the alternative Civic coupe (because I can't see a Corolla coupe)

    That, in essence is why Toyota has dropped the Celica, MR2 Spider and Echo. Those cars are more entry level and sporty, and thus the xA in a sense replaces the Echo and the tC replaces the Celica (and is cheaper too).

    So in the end SCION could be seen as the Entry level brand and sportier brand of Toyota. Because the tC is somewhat sporty, but the xA and xB really are not, and all these cars, based on price and size are lower than what Toyota would want to offer.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    with you there about Scion.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    Give the kid a prize for a very thoughful and well written explanation. :shades:
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    ...Give me a Job

    Specifically Honda, Nissan, Toyota or Mazda. I'll take whoever offers the best(smiles)

    That's the goal for me after college graduation, and of course to buy another car from one of the top four Japanese automakers. Really waiting for the next Sentra.

    That's the dream.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,803
    Hate break it to you, but your mom is 45. IF she was 23 in 1983, that means she was born in 1960, which makes her 45 in 2005. :-) Other than that, good post.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,803
    " Although it shares a 160-horsepower rating with the Camry, it actually has slightly less torque (161 pound-feet versus 163 lb-ft). Strange…maybe it works out at the same gym that BMW's inline sixes belong to."

    There is odviously something better about Honda's engine.

    * I dont know about the drag coefficient though... I remember reading somewhere Camry's was better, maybe i'm wrong.


    Hond ais good at eliminating drive train losses. Average car loses about 20-30% to the tranny and such, Honda only loses 10-15%. Plus Honda knows how to gear transmissions for their engines, so that they are producing power and provide fuel economy.

    When the new Accord came out, Temple VTEC dynoed it, when they applied the coefficient they have been using to conver wheel HP to crank HP it came out at 180 hp. But when the engine is dyoned on the stand it produced 160 hp. This just meant that Honda was able to reduce the drive train losses to put more power to the wheels.

    This is why Accord is more fuel efficent and faster than Camry. It is an old logic: "Do more with less" Honda's 160 hp Civic Si can whip Toyota's 180 hp Corolla XRS/Matrix XRS, and can hang with the 175 hp Sentra SE-R Spec V. Same for regular Civic with 127 or even 115 Hp being competitive with Toyota's 130 hp Corolla.
  • chidorochidoro Posts: 125
    Vehicle weight also plays a role in this. The civic is still a pretty lightweight vehicle at the 2,650 range.
    Should be a fun car. A 12% increase in max torque achieved at only 4300 rpms on a light car should really have some pull when you hit it.
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