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Comments
Picture don't lie. Only lack of knowledge by so called expert does.
The problem with HID is not OEM issue. It's numerous idiots out there that went the aftermarket route that is blinding others and some SUV.
I will go home today and post another picture to prove the so called expert from USA today are complete idiots. I have 2 W211 E class at home (a BI-Xeon E55 and a regluar Halogen E500). You will see a huge difference between the two on amount of coverage in front of driver.
Here is the problem i have with so called expert. Just because one of the car they drive with lousy HID or not done correctly they jump to the damn conclusion.
On the Sienna, my head light cut off point is further than halogen light. Even though halogen disperse effect allows the fuzzy image. A good HID project a range that is further making the point mute.
On my W211 the bi-xeon in standard setting projects an area about 20% further than halogen light. In fact, the bi-xeon provide further range than so called fuzzy image on the cut off of regular halogen beams.
If HID are so bad, it would not be a trend that automobile manufacturer is moving to. It has been used on aircraft for a long time.
USA today? If i believe everything that so called expert says, we would still be driving a model T.
PICTURE DON'T LIE. BUT PEOPLE WITH LACK OF KNOWLEDGE DOES.
James Healey does engender strong opinions now and then :-)
Steve, Host
The picture was taken on a $200 el cheapo digital camera and was sitting on top of instrument panel on the Sienna. That's how the shot can be steady. My el cheapo toshiba digital camera does not focus well in dark since there was nothing in front of it to focus on (it was open space).
It take about 10 to 15 minutes from time the picture that was taken at fremont automall construction site to my house in mission san jose.
I was actually not happy with result of picture as there were too many ambient light getting inside the head light beam. Thus the picture would not be as dramatic as i would have hope.
Also, I found it quite amusing since from the shot of my camera it's more than clear it comes from same angle same distance.
I don't have the time sitting in front of my computer to photoshop picture to make a bogus story like typical journalist does to make his point (like Mr. Rather's report).
Truth is simply truth. HID is better especially if its OEM factory form. Fuzzy halogen? Sorry this is laughable.
My point is that you can't just accept any photo at face value without considering the involvement of the shooters position, etc. That was true before air brushing became common, much less digital manipulation.
That's all I meant and sorry for making it sound like I thought you were faking the pics - I thought your photos were most helpful.
Steve, Host
1) She could feel the engine vibration through the gas pedal on the Sienna, but very smooth on the Odyssey.
2) She could feel the Sienna shifting through the gears, but this was undectable on the Odyssey.
3) Odyssey was much much quieter even with the second row windows down.
4) Absolutely hated the black shiny plastic finish in the Sienna. (subjective)
5) The Odyssey was much more responsive in steering capabilities.
6) Third row seat was much easier to maneuver in the Odyssey as opposed to the Sienna. We actually had to force the seat down with another hand to get it to go all the way down. The Odyssey is truly one handed.
These and really many more facts along with things like standard Tri-Zone air, 2 automatic doors, 6-CD changer, integrated sun screens, lazy susan really made it easy to decide. We liked the compass/EPA center, the vented 3rd row windows, and tire pressure monitor on the Sienna, but those small factor couldn't overcome the better feeling drive experience we had in the Odyssey.
Comfort and quality wise, I still see the pair as indistinguishable and miles ahead of the domestics.
I've got one dealer down to $27,500, about $1000 off MSRP. Still trying to go lower... we'll see.
If your specific projector application is plagued with hot spots, that's a sorry testament to our regulations, and supportive of the statement "The Sienna's HID lights are better than [insert vehicle] Headlights." Not of a general blanket statement that "The Siennas lights are better than any projector HIDs"
If the headlight pattern is aimed such that it reaches where the "brights" go, it doesn't matter if it's halogen, HID, or a big maglite. You are shining light into the eyes of opposing traffic, and making yourself a hazard. You say the light isn't "concentrated" there. That's exactly the problem. You may not have enough light to return back to your eyes to see a good view of the road, but you can bet you're sending enough light to create a night blindness problem for someone ahead of you. Set your lights at 0, go walk 50' ahead, and look at your car.
Halogens aren't any better at this. But with higher lumens and a whiter light beam, HID's are more vulnerable to this problem than standard headlights are.
This is *exactly* the problem with reflector headlamps(and by extention, the old DOT standards which specified a lot of stray light). You can put yourself in a situation where there's stray light going above your pattern, but you can't really tell because the cutoff isn't sharp. Projectors have stray light too. But they have a lot less, and the cutoff is more distinct so you have a better idea of how far you can aim the lights before you create a problem.
Is the Sienna's cutoff sharp? No. Can you park the van 25 feet from a wall, and draw a sharp line at where your cutoff is? No. It's a soft transition from light to darkness. So now where do you aim the lights in order to prevent too much stray light going into the eyes of traffic? How much is too much? It's that uncertainty that is the problem.
Point a slide projector at a wall. You know *exactly* where the light stops. No question. Aim a flashlight through a slide, and it's not so clear.
Anyone *not* think the "Lexus Minivan" would just be the Sienna Ltd with a few extra goodies and moved over to the next lot? Other than a few cosmetic changes, it's already got the look for it.
2. I actually on numerous occasion had my van follow me home. The sienna head light although that much wider disperse pattern really does not done as bad of damage on blinding effect on the car in front of it.
The problem at least with all my projectors are due to the hot spot created by DOT regulation. Those are very blinding. The reflective disperse of sienna's head light is not as bad as being shot in the eye with one of the beams of projector hot spot.
I will reserve my judgement on projector light in general than. But at least in this point of time our DOT controlled projector head lights are more blinding than my sienna head light.
My statement is this. On SUV, the hot spot created by the projector is too much for any cars and oncoming traffic to handle. That's according EWT and my experience, we rarely has been flashed due to our sienna HID. But i got plenty of middle fingers with my other cars and my ex RX300.
Steve, Host
Item 1,2 is probably that car issue. Because my sienna and pretty much the ones i have driven are actually very smooth.
3. No, this is totally impossible. Odyssey is not quieter by any means. With 2nd row window down is even impossible unless you are not moving.
4. Hmm. There are only two color of interior available and none of them are black. One its oak, the other is stone. Unless someone is color blind, the plastic on the dash (the upper darker area) is light gray. No way it's black. In fact, it sounds like your are describing the odyssey's black interior,
6. Hmm, most likely specific van issue. My seat with one pull folds flat into the floor without any effort.
XLE sienna comes with two automatic door plus power rear lift gate. Adv. Sienna.
XLE pkg #5 comes with in dash 6 disc changer, integrated sun screen in all 3 row. Odyssey on the other hand only has two rows. Therefore adv. Sienna.
One more thing is that Odyssey EX does not have true tri-zone air. But it's actually standard on the touring and Sienna XLE and above.
Pricing is also very wrong.
XLE with pkg 5 is $35165 but comes with leather and DVD. But EXL with DVD is $31895. That's not $100 apart. Even if toyota is selling at invoice and odyssey is selling at $1k off MSRP, there difference is still higher than $100.
Unless you are comparing LE pkg #5. Which sticker at $28190, invoice is about $25185, you probably can buy it at $25500. The base EX is $28510, purchasing price is $27500. You actually has $2k difference on the two.
A fair comparison would XLE pkg #3 which MSRP is $31,265. Invoice is $27784, you probably can get it at $28300. A $800 difference.
scotty0820's # 2 is a well known fact in all toyota. A lot worse when the Sienna is down shifting, and I'll describe it as horrible and dangerous.
I also saw the black shiny plastic in the Sienna and hate it.
As for the #6, it's obvious that you never try the new ody.'s third row seat.
XLE with pkg 5 at invoice and EXL RES at MSRP is pretty close, isn't it?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
" horrible and dangerous" ?? Give me a break!
And, yes, I sell Hondas!
1. HID's - Love them ! Simply put, I can see better with them. period. I had them on my Acura TL and am glad the 04 Sienna has them. - Might add aftermakert one's to my MDX.
2. Tires - I have done plenty of research and have discovered some disturbing things. I have an 04 AWD (which I gotta have and do love). AWD comes with the run flat tires and no spare. I've discovered that a LOT of people have been stranded on vacations waiting for a replacement tire since the Toyota dealers don't seem to stock them. You can't really drive to far if the tire gets damaged. This is simply idiotic. Toyota has completely dropped the ball on this one. The wheel size is NOT a standard size, so you can't simply buy a cheap steel rim and tire to build your own spare. If you purchase a replacement RFT and rim at retail, it's gonna cost you like $700 to build a spare. Nice !. Being somewhat resourceful, I bout and OEM rim from http://www.wheelcollision.com/toyota.htm for $225 and found a brand new B380 Run Flat on Ebay that I wound up getting for $49. So I feel lucky that I built a real full size spare for under $300. But Again, why should I have to do this? lame. I'll keep in in my garage most of the time, but when I make the 400 mile drive to Disneyland, or up to tahoe, I'll toss it in the back for peace of mind. How can you tell your 4 year old that Mickey will have to wait for 3 days while we're stuck in the central valley of California waiting for a tire. Bottom Line. Run Flat Tires are a joke. Even The local Bridgestone dealer stated that to me. PAX has the same darn issues.
OK,
Out of curiosity, I test drove an ODY the other day. Hell of a Nice Van. Do I like it better than my Sienna? No. Do I like my Sienna Better? Well, I guess since I own one, i would have to say yes, but marginally. They are both Solid. The ODY was slightly noisier to me. But you never know what biases you have, maybe i was hearing things. Definitely more feel from the road, but this is really a preference thing. I like the Softer feel of our Sienna for a Van. If I want more road feel, I'll hop an a sedan or the SUV. AWD was still quite important to me, so that still tips things to the Sienna. But for all you people comparing, you really have to go drive them. They're both fantastic. Anyone saying one is better than the other hasn't really looked objectively. Go see which one suits YOUR needs better. And if you can get away from RFT's and PAX, do it. UGH.
stew
Which begs the question: If you decided to 'build you own spare'--which is a reasonable thing to do--why would you bother to put on an RFT? I suppose for $49, you couldn't pass it up.
The very first time i fold flat the 3rd row of both cars, I do find the Ody is easier and require less effort than sienna, cuz you have pull/lift up the seat in order to fold but for ody you just have to flip it down!
it is just that you are really use to the way it fold and therefore it seems easy to you!
Heywood. Then Find me a 17"x6.5" steel rim. You would be doing a great service to me and anyone else looking for a cheap spare.
I personally can't find one. Either can any Toyota dealer or Wheel/Tire Shop I've talked to. Struck out on the internet too. I personally don't think one exists. The only wheels that size out there are expensive aluminum rims, including the Toyota OEM's. So before you say that someone is absolutely and totally wrong, do a little research. If you find an inexpensive rim of that size, I'll eat my words and tip my hat to you. ;-). well, I may do that anyways.
This discussion about HID is silly considering most country folks won't even use high beams. Sorry if I offend someone but it is infuriating to have to travel behind somebody in the dark at 70 and they won't turn on their high beams and I can't.
Yes, the sienna is very smooth and quiet, much better than an 02 ody. until you want it to go a little faster.
Almost all auto transmission, both honda and toyota's, will down shift when you need more power. And all transmissions take time to down shift, but all toyota transmissions take a lot longer time to pause, calculate your situation, and then down shift. Hence you'll have a 1/2 sec. to 1 sec. gap that the car doesn't have any power at all when you need it the most. During that gap, you or most'll feel nervous because someone is almost hitting you from behind and you really need it to move fast but the car wants to stop, then you press the pedal more, then finally transmission down shifts, and suddenly you got a huge power that drags your car forward like craze and scares everyone on board. Then you'll have to release the gas pedal following the movement of the car. It's the unpredictability that make the situation dangerous. This is not what I feel but the fact.
If you never down shifting the sienna, you're lucky. And just make sure never step on the gas pedal too hard:-)
And I totally disagree with your post. In all fairness to Toyota, the situation you describe is overblown. I have driven a lot of Toyotas and even owned a couple and I have NEVER experienced what you describe.
If you purchase an AWD model (which I did, and I certainly want AWD), then you get run flat tires and NO spare.
Honda will have similar problems with their idiotic PAX tires. In fact worse because you have to use special rims.
I'm not sure what the word "standard" means. If you mean standard because you can mount either the Run Flats or Standard Tires to the rim, they you're correct. But the SIZE is odd. Here is the deal. I can find only one other car that ever had 17 x 6 1/2" rims. A Mitsubishi. It'a not the 17R that is the issue, it's the 6 1/2". Nobody seems to manufacture a 17 x 6 1/2" steel rim that one could use for a spare. You HAVE to buy a more expensive aluminum rim. Either a custom or an OEM rim. And they're all expensive. One could purchase a 16" rim and use a different size tire, but the overall radius would be off by .6 inches. This is hardly desireable.
This is compounded by the fact that the dealerships are NOT stocking the tires, they have to order them which takes a few days. So, if you're a few hundred miles from home and the tire is damaged, you are screwed. And to add to the frustration Toyota dealers are being instructed NOT to repair run flat tires. Why, who knows.
After finding all this out I decided to build my own spare for long trips. Afound town, it't no big deal but on a trip, it could be devastating.
There is some great information out there on this.
The only time my Sienna has a longer than normal lag downshifting is if I'm going at very slow speed, lift completely for more than a second or so, then try to accelerate hard. It takes a 1/2 second or less to downshift, which is slightly longer than most cars I've owned in the past. Otherwise, it is no slower at downshifting than other cars I've driven and I certainly don't get a "huge power that drags the car forward like craze (sic) and scares everyone on board" every time I downshift. Other than that one anomoly that I might encounter about once every two months, the engine/transmission combo on the Sienna is one of the smoothest ones I've ever driven.
Thanks alot.-melamed
I bought (stole) four OEM Toyota 17" rims on Ebay for $100 each this past summer. Just this week I mounted new RFT snows on 'em.
If you visit the Tire Rack website, you will find at least a dozen 17" (alloy) rims that will fit the AWD (and FWD Limited) Sienna. These rims will accept both run-flat and non-run-flat tires, as well as different brands of either.
PAX is a proprietary technology developed by Michelin. Whatever its merits, it has a unique circumference that will only accept a Michelin PAX tire.
I guess those eBay wheels were alloys? When I got a full size spare for my van, I paid $54 for a new universal steel rim and they put a used tire on it for that price.
Steve, Host
As for a spare, I think someone got the 16" wheel and tire to match the stock XLE(?) rims as a spare. He figured the outer tire diameter was close enough for spare duty, and the tire size was a lot more common.
--> Andy
Of course, the seller didn't help himself by misspelling 'Sienna' in his auction heading. I was the only bidder.
I have details of snow tire size and cost in 'Problems & Solutions 2004.'
Anyone knows what a sienna model trim level would most correspond to ody EX-L and EX-L Nav/RES? Thx in advance.
I just think that they should have given us an opetion to have an inexpensive steel rim. but whatever. You're like me, you used your resources and found a great deal !
And I definitely feel that because of this issues that ALL toyota dealers should be required by the parent company to stock the tires.
Some other folks really needed to be warned about this though.
Steve, Host
I have NEVER seen a Sienna XLE that did not have as a minimum the leather (option 13 in Edmunds @ $3,000). That puts the Sienna XLE with leather $32,590 while the Odyssey EX-L is $30,810.
As confusing as Sienna options are, the DC minivan options are even more complicated.
Odyssey EX @ $28,510 remains my first choice of new minivans.
Has anyone used a service called CarBargains to purchase his or her vehicle? If so, what was your experience? They claim to do the dirty work of negotiating with nearby dealers by means of a bid process.
Thanks in advance, LH
"A consumer can often get similar deals by simply calling or e-mailing a dealership's fleet or Internet manager and negotiating prices through them."
But a broker avoids the hassle....
Steve, Host
#2. Sorry. Toyota automatic is by far the smoothest of all japanese manufacturer. I have owned more than enough honda/acura/toyota/lexus.
This is especially coming from a total disaster 5 speed automatic from TL. Toyota automatic does not shift excessively.
#3. Sorry to burst your bubble. There are only two color interior on the sienna. THERE IS NO BLACK.
#6.?? Please read more carefully. The original post states that sienna 3rd seat does not folds perfectly into the space. I am stating other wise. What does this has to do with Odyssey?
I spend a month going back and forth on whether to trade in my 04 limited for a 05 Odyssey touring. Spend so many time on both vans, I am fully aware what each van can do.
BTW, i did took pictures of W211 Xeon vs Halogen, as well as 3rd seat folding on the sienna. I just misplaced my USB cable. will upload as soon as possible.
Yes, its close. But XLE does comes with more feature than EXL+RES. Need I point out the missing power rear hatch? missing 2 115V output?
You can also get an LE with package 8 and stand alone leather which would approximate an EX-L with Nav.
There are still some differences between the two vans, but they were about as close as I could get.
Just ordered the first of these two after many test drives and after much consideration.