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Comments
I would be saying the same had it been the opposite, so you put words in my mouth. 'C&D' reviewers are as biased toward sports-car-handling as 'Consumer Reports' editors are toward practicality.
So it's no surprise they chose the '04 Ody (again, by a hair) over the '04 Sienna. These guys don't give a hoot about road noise, so long as the driving experience is 'fun' (if that's even possible with a minivan). The quiet luxury of a Sienna is lost on a bunch of guys who would rather be driving Porsches anyway.
(Don't misunderstand me, I love 'C&D,' and have been a subscriber since 1979). Now if they'd just do an unbiased evaluation of PAX on the '05.....
And just why would I trust those TOP-NOTCH automotive reviewers at 'Money' and 'Kiplingers'..... I don't buy audio equipment that's recommended in 'Playboy'....
Who will want to buy a vehicle with very expensive, hard to find tires, only sold by Michelin (a French company) and Honda where the price and availibility is totally controlled by them?
Remind you that, being the poor person stuck on a vacation or weekend spending all his time and money finding a replacement PAX. There are none in Canada, so Honda owners, no not visit there without STRAPPING one PAX on the roof. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, you can not strap it to the roof, unless you bought the "cross bar option" as Honda does not included these like most other car makers do with a roof rack!
Odyssey is a great van, but so is Sienna. I drove both models several times. All this talk about how mine is faster than yours, or gets 1 mile an hour better gas mileage will mean nothing when you are stuck in THAT Odyssey Touring with a bad PAX tire and I go by you smiling in my new Toyota Sienna XLE Limited!!! I could not even stop to help you, no one CAN!!!
PAX is a nice idea in theory, but for a person who drives on vacation or gets stuck on weekend the support will suck. If PAX was so great, why not make them mandatory on Acura?
Why does Honda hide these PAX FACTS from the buyers? There was little reason except control, to NOT make PAX an option on Touring. Or have the option to allow for a regular tire to fit. Or AT LEAST include some kind of donut spare, instead of leaving the space in the Touring EMPTY! They almost HAD me, but I got away before delivery. Thank you Edmunds forum again! Time will tell.
Stephen A
IIRC, the test pretty much confirmed popular perceptions. The Sienna was cushier and quieter, and the Ody was more of a "drivers" car.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If consumers knew they couldn't travel to Canada and will have great difficulty finding replacement tires in the States, they would not be buying Touring models.
ISELLHONDAS , do you let your customers know these facts before they purchase a touring model?
If you read your owners manual you'll see that Toyota recommends premium fuel.
87 octane is OK, as long as you don't insist on the advertised HP and gas mileage.
That is not true. PAX tire technology provides advantages in ride quality, repairability, rated distance when driven flat, and ability to work with heavier vehicles compared to conventional run-flats. That's why Michelin considers this to be their best technology, even though they also sell regular run-flat tires.
Furthermore, it is my understanding that your rare tire size on the Sienna also limits your tire choices and increases replacement costs.
I will grant you the point that one can probably drive an extra 50 miles or so with a PAX tire, vs. a convention run-flat.
I cannot speak to advantages of ride quality. But I do know that with conventional run-flats, I have some options. If your PAX tires turn out to be awful in wet or snowy conditions, you're stuck with them (pardon the pun)-- even if they DO have a nice ride on a dry and sunny day.
Finally, the 17" wheels on my Sienna ARE NOT RARE! Seventeen inches is a STANDARD SIZE! (Why do people keep saying this?) The 18.1" of PAX, however, most certainly IS rare...
You write:"87 octane is OK, as long as you don't insist on the advertised HP and gas mileage."
Do you have objective evidence that Sienna doesn't develop 230 HP with regular fuel? The manual only states "premium recommended for improved performance". It is more likely the HP numbers will go up by 5 if you use premium and not the other way around.
As pointed out by others, currently Sienna has a better power to weight ratio, so that is better IMO.
The Tweel was written up this month in one of my car magazines. Basically it is an integrated wheel/tire that is not inflated. Some sort of wire thingees support the rubber tread, which is replaceable.
So, no chance of a flat, no need for a spare, etc.
Look really weird though, with no sidewall. But, if they work as hoped, will comepletely revolutionize tire technology!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Steve, Host
Obviously, Honda and Toyota are helping the tires companies to promote these new types of tires with the expenses of non-informed consumers.
Toyota sienna AWD has to use the run-flat since they can't find a underbody place for a spare.
I may have to buy a spare and put it behind the third row seats when I replace the all four run-flats to four regular tires. Also, I hope the price and availability of the run-flat or PAX will be better in a couple of years.
Any comments?
Thanks for the feedback. Toyota recommends premium fuel for "increased" performance... not for "standard" performance. As stated before, we are getting very good gas mileage on 87 octane--equal or better than advertised in fact--without any knocking/pinging. I don't mean for this to be an arguing point... it is just my own experience (to date) with a Sienna. In short, the van runs very well on 87 octane.
i might add that i don't warm-up the van at all from a cold start, just let it do that on the way.
1 - city - here means locally sporadic stop and go country driving with short perhaps steep hilly terrain in some spots.
I understand and can appreciate the benefits of RFTs in general. That being said, I don't like proprietary technology which FORCES me to use one particular tire, and ONLY one particular tire. That is a huge liablitiy which the PAX tire has which other RFTs do not.
I suspect the reason you've heard no fears or complaints is that the customer doesn't yet realize what he's getting into...
And please turn off the caps lock - shouting is hard to read.
Steve, Host
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The IS no purely objective better unless EVERYONE agrees on exactly what criteria will be used to judge. We all have different criteria, therefor, what may be 'better' for recio3 may not be 'better' for stickguy, or 'better' for rorr, or even 'better' for you, a Honda salesman.
Are you stating, categorically, that Honda is incapable of producing a vehicle which would exibit the sort of problem which recio3 is having?
Here are two articles on hesitation problem!
http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04343/423383.stm
Plus last year's Odyssey was #1 in NHTSA safety for vans; and Honda improved upon that this year with the new Industry Leading safety equipment.
Let the bickering begin.
"Plus last year's Odyssey was #1 in NHTSA safety for vans; and Honda improved upon that this year with the new Industry Leading safety equipment."
What would be this *leading* safety equipment, if I may ask? Actually, Sienna is the best based on IIHS tests and IIRC, in NHSTA tests, Ody, Sienna, Freestar and Quest all got five stars all around.
THE ANSWER is simply, ACE Body Structure Honda/acura invented and added to the TL and the ODyssey 05'. I'm sure it will improve the driver and passengers saftey. If you need more info just visit the odyssey's site. By the way, how can you say Sienna did better than Honda in NHSTA tests 2005, when Honda Odyssey hasn't been tested yet. You trully are Sienna biase!!
I didn't buy the Sienna because of my friends problem, with the car not starting. Also when I test drove the sienna the engine over heated..... Toyota should fix these vans before they let us test drive them.... P.S. I still wish honda had added HID lights to the Ody, but if they do it won't be anytime soon, because they would have to redesign the front end in order to "make way for hid technology"
Now, other than Honda, no one knows how the so called ACE structure performs. 2004 Sienna was IIHS's best pick overall above the 04 Ody. While I don't expect 05 Ody to perform poorly in crash tests, those of you who buy in to Honda's marketing that it is better than other vans, don't have any objective evidence to support the assertion.
Honda also told us all that the Ody will be the quietest van. However, as you can see from these forums, the general opinion is that Sienna and T&C are still quieter. But, it all comes down to personal preference in the end, doesn't it? If one likes more driver feel, Ody is the van to buy. If one wants a more isolated ride, go for the Sienna. My personal preference is that minivans should be comfortable, quiet and smooth as a kids mover and that's why I went with the Sienna and Hondas are generally uncomfortable for me.
I don't put too much faith in to Consumer Reports' rating, but, the previous generation Sienna was the most reliable in its category and there is absolutely no endemic problems with the 3.3L engine.
I hope that salesman is correct!
Thanks for the info.
1. Phantom owners probably have more than one vehicle. If PAX replacement becomes necessary, no biggie for an owner with a half a dozen other cars.
2. Most Phantom owners won't be driving their $300,000 car in the snow. Lack of winter treads for PAX is a non-issue, as they'll just drive the Range Rover instead.
3. PAX replacement or service must be done by the dealer (or a Michelin dealer who's bought the necessary equipment). You can't even begin to compare the dealer service experience of Rolls-Royce to that of Honda. Phantom owners in need of service have their cars picked up at their homes, and hauled (covered, of course) to the dealer for work. No hassle for THEM!
4. Phantom owners probably won't be complaining about replacement cost-- that is, if they ever put enough miles on the car to require new tires in the first place.
Claiming the Ody is the quietest minivan is an extremely bold statement.
I like an extremely quiet and smooth ride--like Lexus LS sedan. And right now, the Sienna is probably still the quietest (unless C&D magazine reports otherwise IMO) and the smoothest.
But at the same time, I want the best Navigation system plus 6 CD changer.
Right now, the Ody wins in this category.
Steve, Host
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2809.html
Sienna:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2976.html
I may be stupid, but I'd rather be hit by 358 marbles at 30 MPH in an Odyssey vs 678 marbles at 30 MPH in a Sienna.
Shall I continue, or does this dispel the rumors that lower numbers save lives, not stars. I want raw data instead of a controversial words of acceptable, fair, marginal.
The numbers speak for themselves, and when a person sees lower numbers on a comparable test, they know which van has better safety.
Toyota Sienna XLE Limited Honda Odyssey Touring
4000 RPM 60 db 58 db
20 MPH 65 db 62 db
60 MPH 72 db 68 db
Acceleration 73 db 72 db
With AC on 72 db 67 db
Bumps 80 db 80 db
Ok that covers Noise levels and safety, what's next? Best van for 2005?
Seats and noise level are about the easiest things to check for yourself. Take a test drive that includes a highway stretch, and you should know what works for you.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"I may be stupid, but I'd rather be hit by 358 marbles at 30 MPH in an Odyssey vs 678 marbles at 30 MPH in a Sienna."
If this difference was supposed to cause serious injury, NHTSA wouldn't have awarded 5 stars to the Sienna. From a salesman's standpoint I guess its ok to point this out, but if you look at IIHS results, you will find that intrusion into the passenger compartment in the Sienna was less than that of 04 Ody. That's one of the reasons why Sienna was IIHS's best pick. You also sort of see this in the pictures on the NHTSA web site.
But, this doesn't address the most pertinent issue. To date, the 2005 Ody hasn't been tested, so all Honda salesmen are simply blowing smoke to hide this. Would 2005 Ody with its newer so called ACE structure be better than the Sienna? I simply don't know and neither is any one else here. However, there is no dearth of marketing hype.
I don't have to tell you about the noise levels on the 05 Ody with so many complaining about it here in these boards. Obviously, there is some discrepency between perception and measurement of these levels as stickguy explains, which was the case with the 04 Ody as well. Particularly, those of us who were used to DC vans, it wa(i)s a bit more noticeable than it would have been otherwise. May be its just a combination of road feel and engine noise this gives this increased noisy feeling, but there is no denying that Sienna and TC are quieter and/or smoother. Again, goes back to preference you know.
If one is not concerned about the latest RES/NAV, the 05 Ody Touring just cannot hold a Candle to the Sienna Limited. That is simply my subjective opinion, based on my preferences. With the Ody having less power to weight ratio than the Sienna, the increased HP really doesn't matter much.
Marbles...??? What are you talking about? Maybe it's a joke and I don't get it?
The head injury index (HIC) is a measure of acceleration (deceleration) and has nothing to do with being "hit". The formula used is non-linear--meaning that a value of 600 doesn't imply "twice the danger" of a 300 value. The length of time over which acceleration occurs (impulse duration) plays heavily in the results but the maximum integration period is less than 50 milliseconds.
NHTSA calculates this value from the peak "integral" deceleration period during a crash impulse and then compares to a "likely injury" threshold criterion. A 5-star rating translates to a "10% or less chance of injury" for the category. HCI is a "relative measure" since it is not derived from nor otherwise connected to actual injury data.
That is why they use words like "good, fair,...etc"--so that people don't misintrepret the raw data.
I am comparing Ody LX vs Sienna CE, both 7 seater.
LX costs $32.7k MSRP, CE is at $30k MSRP. CE has most of the features I need, minus traction control and privacy glass. This is pretty sad, since I've been leasing minivans so far and I always had well equipped vans. This is the first time I am trying to finance, attempting to reduce the long-term ownership cost. I'd like to keep them for about 6 years.
But here's the kicker. With my trade in, my monthly cost comes out to $670 for Ody while $502 for Sienna! Just for the heck of it, I tried calculating monthly cost for Sienna LE, which costs $35.4k MSRP. It comes out to $645! Still cheaper than Ody LX.
Ok, getting my hopes up and compared XLE, which is at whopping $44.6k... $889. Oops. Back to LE. (By the way, Ody EX will cost me $757).
I dunno about you guys, but comparing Ody LX vs Sienna LE, I am tilting towards LE. It has more options and it is cheaper! Even the residual is likely to come out better as it is higher valued vehicle to begin with.
I'm also considering waiting another year, hoping the interest rate to come down. Honda currently charges 6.4%!
Should I relocate to US?
My wife just purchased an 05' Sienna, and me an 05' Ody, my van is much quieter, as in hers you can hear road noise on the hwy at 45-70 mph, while in the odyssey the only noise I hear is my right side sliding door which has a problem that will be fixed by Honda next week.
If one is not concerned about the latest RES/NAV, the 05 Ody Touring just cannot hold a Candle to the Sienna Limited
both of those "sentences' to me don't mean anything, you know why, EXPERIENCE. I've test driven a cheap DC and as I said my wife owns a Sienna, and guess what?, both are a not as smooth as my odyssey by about 2 milli points. How can you say, "05 Ody Touring just cannot hold a Candle to the Sienna Limited", do you own the sienna 05' or just by the things you've heard Do you own a Touring?" Besides the HID and Laser cruise control both vans are the same except no moonroof on the sienna XLE Limited, while on the Touring Res/ Nav. I have to disagree with you not because I love the ody but because of my experience with these 2 vans. I would not have paid about $45,500 for a minivan (ody touring) if I thought the sienna was smoother or quieter, and that the HID, Laser cruise control, or the 3rd row power window mattered. To me these are just unnessesary features, that honda missed but will place on future vans, besides competition is gonna get tuff when the newly redesigned KIA which Popular Mechanics says is the most light weight, will be introduced in 05' with HID lights. I SEE COMPETITION COMING SOON!----
Have you even looked at a Sienna Limited? Moonroofs are standard on this trim level, I should know, because I have already have 15K miles on my 04 Arctic Frost Pearl Limited FWD with package 6.
I spent quite a bit of time researching vans including the 2003 models (late 2002), because of my need to replace my 93 T&C. No doubt at that time, the T&C was more luxurious and comfortable and the Ody was plain, functional and noisy but was at least ~$2-3K cheaper than the T&C Limited, so the value for money wasn't quite convincing to buy the T&C. With 04 Sienna arriving Jan 2003, it was the best value for money for me. If I had wanted the cheapest van, I'd have bought a Kia Sedona that even looked a bit more upscale than Ody EXL at that time!.
So, I know about the "cheap DC" you're talking about. I can tell you, they drive much smoother and quiter than the prev. generation Ody. You don't have to take my word for it, because there are so many in these forums that have found the same thing. I have only briefly looked at the 05 Ody since I am not in the market anymore, and the interior on the Touring still looks much cheaper than the Sienna (Sienna is more upscale). Placement of controls etc. on the Sienna is just perfect and I love the leather/wood steering wheel, HID, Laser CC, auto dim mirrors, tri-zone A/C etc. The second and third row sunshades (standard on LTD) are beautifully implemented. I regularly use the third row vents and can't believe in 05 Ody they took it out. PAX is a truly a deal breaker on the Ody Touring. My biggest gripe with the Sienna so far are the crappy Turanza EL42 tires that have close to zero wet traction. Lack of memory seats is probably the next one, but I haven't needed that in a while. I actually like the way RES is implemented in the Sienna now, because my kid can change DVDs without bothering me when I am driving.
Sienna is the quietest between 40-70 mph. Beyond 70mph I hear occasional wind noise, but not road noise. My 93 T&C had wind noise that was much worse, and so IMO, the Sienna is well insulated. I've driven upwards of 700 miles in one day on various roads, and this is one of the most comfortable vehicles that I've ever owned. Then again it all comes down to personal preference. As I said earlier, Ody is the van of choice for people who prefer a better road feel and I am not one of them.