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Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think that's typical, though when you get a lemon it really doesn't matter how well everyone else's performs, does it? ;)

    Any how, glad to hear you're having a better experience now.

    We crammed 7 and lots of luggage for a road trip to the beach this weekend and averaged 26mpg (07 Sienna LE FWD), our all-time low for a highway trip. It was the heaviest load I've carried, so that makes sense.
  • agnostoagnosto Member Posts: 207
    The 2006 Sienna is very reliable COMFORTABLE and great minivan for long trips. I can not describe how much I love the DLCC (Dynamic Laser Cruse Control) especially on long trips I feel like I am not driving at all it slows and accelerates by itself... very nice and way better quality parts than HONDA... my hope is TOYOTA continues its quality...

    One of the reasons we got rid of the HONDA was the cheap plastic everywhere especially inside all around and felt very stressed with all this money spent, you end up w/o quality interior/exterior (paint had started to come off)...

    I can go on and on... but you get my point...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To be fair I think a lot of vans are built for durability (and ease of wiping up baby spills) rather than luxurious feel and finish.

    I just think that's acceptable in a minivan.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    agnosto, we are living parallel lives. If you have read my posts before, I also had peeling paint - I have little tiny flecks missing all over the place, like someone machine gunned it with little tiny pebbles - and grew wary of cheap, hard plastic everywhere. We just got an 07 Sienna Ltd last month and love every last inch of it. The laser cruise is unbelievable. Also, it DOES see even SMALL motorcycles :shades: in case anyone was wondering... With the Ody, even though it was enjoyable to drive and had its virtues, I felt like I got ripped off because there were so many cheap things about it... I sure don't get that feeling driving or washing my Sienna. Even the paint is gorgeous, and deep, not paper thin like our Ody.
  • jdbedmondsjdbedmonds Member Posts: 1
    I used to paint cars and I noticed the silver on the ody looks thin and mottled, meaning the metallic is uneven. Most people wouldn't notice this but anyone who has painted a silver car knows what I am talking about. After a great deal of research and testing all the leading vans we decided to buy an 07 Ody but my wife wanted silver and I wanted blue. As we were getting closer to making the deal I asked what a tow package would cost and they said $1200. We were quoted $24,600 for either a 07 Sienna LE package #3 or a 07 Ody EX. So I thought this was just too much so we walked across the street and bought the Sienna, since it was already set-up with the tow package. The paint on the Sienna is flawless and I just added a pin stripe to break it up a little. Oh, by the way the van is silver so I didn't win that battle but since its her car that ok. She loves the car and finds it easier to drive then our Caravan. On the way home from the dealer I had to point out she was doing 80+ miles and hour. She just wasn't use to the effortless power and smoothness. Happy wife, happy life.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    funny you should mention the silver in the ODY. that is the color i preferred, but back in '03, i was looking closely at one in silver, and it didn't look properly painted to me. i think you described it well, almost like someone tried to shoot paint on an oily surface, the adhesion didn't look uniform. and in the interior areas where there's overspray (like the track), it looked like the painters had trouble seeing the metal w/ and wo/ the paint.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Very interesting observations - I have noted this too, especially on silver Ody's, and other Honda's as well - and I'm not a painter. It's hard to miss the varying shades of silver, especially when viewed from an angle. You didn't mention if the blue you were considering was the lighter shade or the dark blue, but be very thankful you didn't buy the Ody in the dark blue. That's what mine is, and not only is the application very thin, it peels and flakes off. Trying to touch it up is nearly pointless because it goes on much thicker with a touch up brush, so it stands out because it's too thick and the shade is slightly mismatched because of the added depth. There are so many little flakes all over the body it would probably cost $4k or more to get it fixed right. Our Sienna has already had the misfortune of getting a scratch when the neighbor kid got too close with her bike and put a 3 inch long scrape in the side :sick: right down to the primer... fortunately, on the pearl white it's not that noticeable, and you can tell the Sienna's paint is deep. My wife likes the blue on her Ody better, but she appreciates my need to not want to cover my eyes every time I hand wash it too. Guess we could've gotten the Sienna in the dark blue, but I was so sickened by the paint on our Ody I wanted a color that would hide the blemishes a little better. White, silver, gold, IMO hold up the best.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Haven't had any paint flaking issues with the Midnight Blue Pearl on my '05 Touring.

    Don't recall whether you've ever said what year it is - why wasn't it repaired under warranty since the paint was obviously defective?
  • bobber1bobber1 Member Posts: 217
    Gotoyota your confusing me? From your previous posts I thought you dumped your Honda a few months back and got a new Toyota? What's up? :confuse:
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "why wasn't it repaired under warranty since the paint was obviously defective?"
    I went to two different supervisors at American Honda before I finally was told to see the Honda PSR, or something like that - basically an arbitrator who works directly for Honda but has an office at the dealer - who took a look and said it was normal wear and tear and would not be covered under the warranty. Unfortunately, I did not go to them before the regular 3/36 expired, although it was covered with extended warranty to 100k, but I was told this did nothing for the body or paint. He told me that he thought I probably hit it too hard with a pressure washer. Well, after seeing how thin the paint is on this thing, I'm not surprised he would say that. I just expected it to be more durable than that. There are literally at least hundreds, probably thousands, of little pin-hole sized chips (some are typical looking chips, others are lines about one to two mm's long) everywhere on the body, mostly on the hood... but not limited to the hood. Against the dark blue paint, they really jump at you. Using black colored wax helps, but still... I had made up my mind by that time anyway that I did not want to keep it. All I can say is the paint on our previous van, a '98 Pontiac Montana, held up much better after 6 years and 109k miles and it only left my wife stranded four times in the six years we owned it, compared to probably six or seven for the Ody (however, the Pontiac DID blow an engine... and a rear main seal a couple years later... and had countless minor and major electrical problems - worst car ever made in my opinion).
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "Gotoyota your confusing me? From your previous posts I thought you dumped your Honda a few months back and got a new Toyota? What's up?"

    Well, I don't recall saying I "dumped" the Honda. I did buy the Sienna - the Honda is still in my driveway. I just think it's a good idea to keep a spare ;) Actually the Honda is for sale, so hopefully it won't be around too much longer. There's a whole lot of 'em for sale right now which is making for a slow market, apparently. The dealer would only give me about $16k for it, and it books between $16.3 and $19.6, so I figured I'd sell on my own.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "To be fair I think a lot of vans are built for durability (and ease of wiping up baby spills) rather than luxurious feel and finish.

    I just think that's acceptable in a minivan."

    ateixeira, you are so diplomatic ;)
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Well, it doesn't sound like a factory defect to me either.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "Well, it doesn't sound like a factory defect to me either."
    cccompson, do you work for Honda? I am and have always been very careful at the carwash and have never put the wand closer than maybe three feet from the car, so I don't know how I could've abused it, as was suggested. I wasn't conceding any points to the Honda rep, I simply said that I had made up my mind that my Ody was going to go anyway and I could see that it was going to be a battle if I was going to get anywhere as far as getting the paint fixed to my satisfaction. The paint that peeled behind the driver side sliding door was thinner than paper. There is no excuse for that on a $30K plus car. I fixed the spot where the paint peeled off, now I have replaced it with the Sienna and I'm sure some Honda loyalist will purchase my Ody and be very happy with it, in spite of everything about it that I was dissatisfied with.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I use a pressure washer a lot, and I don't see how it would result in hundreds of pin-size holes in the paint.

    Using too-high pressure will strip paint completely, you'd see a tear or lines in the paint at the edge of the spray. Not pin holes.

    Don't ask me how I know. :cry:

    Sounds more like it was contaminated at the factory prior to paint, and the paint was laid on unevenly.

    gotoyota - let me get this straight, you even had an extended warranty? They still didn't help you? :confuse:

    If so, that's sad. You would hope Honda would go out of their way to help in a borderline case like this, at least for a customer that paid more for the warranty.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "gotoyota - let me get this straight, you even had an extended warranty? They still didn't help you?"

    Yup. I bought the extended warranty thinking it was an extension of the factory 3/36, which is how the finance guy pitched it. In most ways, it was, but it did not cover rust, corrosion, or as I found out, paint defects. They were great about fixing my passenger side sliding door when it failed to close properly at 46k, to their credit, but they wanted nothing to do with the paint. I even pulled out the big guns and told them it looked like I was wrong to expect my Honda to last like my Toyota's had, and maybe it was a mistake to buy it and maybe I should just go trade it in for a Sienna, but all I got was "I understand.... I can see why you feel this way.... I'm sorry you feel this way...." and in the end, they did not fix what I believe is a defective paint job, and way too thin to begin with. You have to see it to believe it. It looks great from several feet away, it's just when you get close to it, like when you wash or wax it - then you see the flakes. And when you look underneath the top of the rear hatch, for instance, they didn't even apply a full coat; the paint just fades into gray, and it's all curling up and flaking off there, which makes me wonder how long until it starts peeling around the outside, where it's visible.... It has NEVER been involved in ANY accidents, it has no bodywork. I just didn't want to let it consume my life trying to get them to fix it. So I moved on and bought the Sienna.... now if I can just get someone to buy that Odyssey sitting in my driveway...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's very strange.

    To be honest, it almost sounds like your van was hail damaged and re-painted before you ever bought it.

    Did you buy it new? How many miles at the time? How much time between the build date (on the driver door jamb) and the day you took delivery?
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    It was purchased new. We don't really get any serious hail here - not big enough to damage sheetmetal anyway. All the panels have the factory VIN sticker. It's just shoddy paint. I have seen a couple other Honda's with the same condition: one was another dark blue Odyssey I looked at in a mall parking lot that looked about the same year as mine, and the other was a dark green Accord, possibly an 01 - 02. I hope, for others sake, that Honda has fixed it on newer models. BTW, I have heard from some people that dark blue is a very difficult paint to do right. Anyone have any input on this? I'm curious to know if any of you who work in auto body reconditioning can shed some light??
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    No, don't work for Honda but have some experience with body repair/restoration.

    Don't really agree that dark blue is a "very difficult paint to do right." There was some talk (here or on another thread) about blotchy silver paint on some Odysseys. Due to it high metallic content, silver can be tough to get consistent color.

    On my '05, the blue is only ok - there's too much orange peel (typical of the industry) and the left corner of the rear bumper is horribly mismatched (almost a purple color) against the quarter when viewed in bright sunlight. Again, though, that's not terribly unusual with soft painted parts.

    On yours, the problem is just weird. Most severe factory problems I've seen relate the paint coming off in sheets due to poor adhesion - this seems to be most common with blues, silvers, and grays.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    "Most severe factory problems I've seen relate the paint coming off in sheets due to poor adhesion... "

    The paint that peeled behind the driver side power door came off in what I suppose could be called a sheet. When I discovered it, there was about 1.5"x.5" size area where the paint was just missing (inside the door frame, so it was somewhat inconspicuous) and at first I thought some wax dripped down there and I just missed it (done that plenty of times before) so I wiped it with a rag, and then more paint came off. Then I noticed there was approximately an inch by .5 inch or so above and below it where you could still see a bubble in the paint, so I ended up cleaning that off, and since it wasn't on one of the outer surfaces, I did the repair work myself using touch up paint from the dealer (no prior experience :blush: unless you count all the model airplanes and cars I did as a kid). It actually looks pretty decent and you can't even see it now, unless you know where to look and what to look for... but the little pin hole size chips all over appear to be the same kind of thing, just smaller. It looks like the paint simply lost adhesion, like you said, just in smaller areas... But I have noticed a couple tiny little spots where the paint appears to be raised up slightly around the "hole". Another scenario I've considered is that due to the paint being so thin, maybe it's possible that rocks and other objects could flip up and hit it from the side just as well as the front and that's causing the damage??? :confuse: I dunno.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Not sure about your "thin" paint complaint. The only time paint is really too thin is when you don't get complete color coverage. On my Odyssey for instance, the paint is thin in two places: inside the fuel filler door area and in the front corner of the left upper sliding door track. Neither is truly bad but both certainly could have (and should have) been done better.

    I've never noted much difference in factory paint thickness between any of the manufacturers.

    At the other extreme, paint that is extra-thick is not desirable due to chipping potential, i.e., a stone chip will likely be more pronounced if too many coats of paint have been applied.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    I've noted the same areas on mine, but I would add the area around the rear hatch too. Why they didn't just paint the whole thing uniformly, I don't get... I have noticed a difference in paint depth or thickness among brands, however. On the European brands, the paint is more like enamel. Thick, with a deep lustre - I always look at BMW's, Porsches, Mercedes and Audi's because I've always noticed that their paint looks much richer...maybe their owners just take better care of them, but I have noticed it is rare to see any kind of rock chips, unless they are very small. I guess I am the type to really scrutinize. Anyway, when one of the aformentioned cars does have a rock chip, if you really look you can see that the paint is thick, and the diameter of the chip is usually very small. I have noticed on even some Lexus models, however, that rock chips tend to be large in comparison (observed on my brothers '04 IS300, and was the same on my '96 ES300), which would support your theory. I have always wondered how the European brands do such beautiful and durable paint work. Probably splitting hairs here, but I'm a details person. What can I say...
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    extended warranties are a marketing tool to make $$$ for the dealership and company backing the paper? generally, i don't like betting against myself. someone wrote they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. i tend to agree.

    if i'm not mistaken, i think the paint is being influenced by environmental regs isn't it? i mean, the formulations used to be much stronger but the process involved environmentally unhealthy chemicals. maybe these other vehicles are painted overseas?
  • teke175teke175 Member Posts: 3
    I have an '07 Odyssey (Silver). I am fighting with Honda over the paint on this one howver the evidence is pretty straight forward. There are clumps and divets in the paint where it appears that the spray ozzle was having problems.

    My problem is that so far I have sent the vehicle back once for poor workmanship on the repaint. I have not seen it yet since. The dealer is try to get Honda to go for a full repaint of the entire affected area for consistency since the blends are extremely noticeable on a silver vehicle.

    How many coats should I allow them to do before pressing them for a sand down. I do not want the paint to be too thick as ccompson said it chip[s easier and is harder to repair?
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    I really wouldn't worry too much about it. In describing too much paint I was more referring to custom jobs where someone claims there's 15 coats of color and 15 coats of clear - an extremely thick coating.

    They should wet sand it down to give a good base for adhesion which will take off some of the clearcoat. They won't put on any more paint than they have to!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wet sanding is great, but too costly for mass production. Even for high volume luxury cars.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp

    Summary of minivans:
    Odyssey 19,324
    Sienna 11,099
    Caravan 9548
    T&C 8838
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I can't believe the Uplander is still selling that many.

    The Quest and Entourage are really hurting.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Quest is too bold (to put it nicely) but at least they found a better location for the instrument cluster after misplacing it on the first try... Entourage is a nice van (our friends drive one) but it doesn't have the track record of Honda and Toyota yet, although Hyundai deserves credit for an honest effort... also, economy suffers in comparison to pretty much all of it's competitors. Our friends Entourage, although it looks nice, hasn't held up very well in the 30K miles they have put on it (they bought one of the first to hit the showroom floor). I think they have been somewhat hard on it though, but still, had the tranny replaced under warranty after it failed at 27k...plus countless electrical problems, no starts, rough engine, etc. It isn't quite ready to go head to head in any regard, with the best. Probably on a par with the Uplander. Not surprised to see Ody at the top, although I still think our Sienna is better. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I bet a lot of those Uplanders are fleet sales.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Yup, I am SURE you are right. It has a face only it's mother could love :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nah, its mama saw the Uplander and "Ventured" off into oblivion (and got its Poor crash protection killed its occupants when it hit rock bottom).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :D

    It's a shame GM gave up. The Uplander was a lazy update, if you ask me. And they used the pushrod 3500 engine.

    GM made a much better effort with the Lambdas that will eventually replace those vans.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree. At least the 3900 was optional in some vans making it marginally competitive in acceleration.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    I have seen many Sienna taxis in southern California, many Grand Caravan/T&C in fleet and rentals, but have NEVER seen an Odyssey used as a taxi or as a rental. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've seen several Odyssey taxis in NY. In fact, back in 1998 when I was there they had lots of the wagon-style Gen I Odyssey. I saw plenty of Ody LXs when I was there in 2005 though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Lots of NYC taxis are Siennas, in fact they use one on the TV show Cash Cab.

    Toyota does have more fleet sales than Honda, but get this.

    I'm shopping for a minivan rental for next month, in Tampa. I got quotes for 4 days in an Uplander: $220. Sienna: $630!

    SIX HUNDRED THIRTY DOLLARS? What the?! :mad:

    All I can say is they must give those Uplanders away to fleets. Though it's nice to know that the rental company thinks the Sienna is worth nearly triple the cost.

    I'm not paying $600 plus, though, for 4 days. That's ridiculous.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Yeah, and there's probably only a 25% chance the Uplander will break over a four day period anyway.

    My father in law rented a Sienna back in December last year in Illinois and I think he paid $300 something for about the same number of days... I wonder what gives??
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe it's just Tampa. And only one of the sites I searched offered them, so I couldn't really shop around.

    I might get a convertible. There's only 4 of us, not that much luggage. I'm curious to try a new Sebring anyway. I'm just afraid I'll get stuck with a PT Cruiser, as that would *not* have enough cargo space.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    IF you really think Toyota are greatly superior, why do you jeopardize your safety and your family's security driving an unsafe, lowly Chrysler vehicle? :confuse:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I didn't say anything like that. Where did that come from? :confuse:

    First off, the rental agency offered a Chevy Uplander, not a Chrysler. You're putting words in my mouth. :P

    Any how, prices are up slightly now, at about $280.

    The Sienna is $643. :sick:

    My point is this - in the new-car market, an Uplander carries a small price advantage, maybe $22k vs. $25k for my Sienna. So you save only 12%.

    But in renting, you save 56%!

    Imagine if you could buy a brand new Uplander for $11,000. You might overlook a lot of flaws for that price.

    Any how, we decided we will be packing light and just got an intermediate sedan. I'm not even sure exactly what we'll get - G6 maybe, though I'd rather sample a Saturn Aura if they have it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    First off, the rental agency offered a Chevy Uplander, not a Chrysler. You're putting words in my mouth.


    I think he meant the Chrysler Sebring Convertible you were mentioning. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I didn't call either one of those "unsafe" or "lowly".

    I said we would not fit in a PT Cruiser.

    I said I would consider a Sebring. It's so new I'm not sure if it's even been crash tested yet.

    Besides, we both own vans and this is a van thread.

    I wouldn't mind a 2008 Grand Caravan as a rental at all. It's just not offered by this rental company.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I didn't call either one of those "unsafe" or "lowly".

    Didn't mean to imply that you did; only meant to try and clarify the Chrysler you were referencing in your post. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Understood.

    I wouldn't mind renting a 2008 Grand Caravan at all, in face I've stated in other threads that I'm interested in test driving one.

    hansienna is mistakenly assuming I have a bias against Chrysler. Last time in Florida we rented a Sebring.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I will step out on a limb and say that I'm biased against Chrysler (if I'm being honest). My family had two different Chryslers (a Lebaron GTC Convertible with the Mitsubishi 3.0L V6 and a 1996 Sebring JX Convertible with the 2.4L 4-cyl), both of which, equated to what would have been money pits if we hadn't gotten rid of them before their warranties ran out. They were nice enough cars themselves, with the Sebring being a real looker, but both spent time in the shop for over a week at a time when they had problems (transmission refusing to go into reverse, :lemon: front suspension needing a total rebuild, :sick: etc). My family dumped them and went back to Hondas. Hondas aren't always perfect, but they have been darn good to us, and if it ain't broke, we ain't gonna fix it! :D

    So, while times have changed, its still hard to look into a brand when we've been bitten not once but twice by them.

    Lately, I tend not to say much about Chrysler at all unless factual, since I know I carry this bias. I can't see myself personally spending money on a Chrysler product at any point in the distant future; it may not be logical, but hey, its my money, I don't have to be! :)
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    THANKS for your well-written clarification. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

    Twice Bitten, Shy Forever? ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's probably a fair assessment. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, well, shame on us. I sure wouldn't go for a third anytime soon.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Looked closely and sat in ALL 3 rows of seats in a 2007 Odyssey EX (cloth) again today.

    ALL seats are MORE comfortable for me than the comparable seats of the 2006, 2007, or 2008 Siennas that I have sat in.
    The "Plus 1" seat (middle seat 2nd row) of the Odyssey EX is comfortable for me if the armrests of the outside 2nd row seats are in the up position and are slid forward or back the same distance. NONE of the 2nd row seats of either a 7 or 8 passenger Sienna are comfortable for me (or my daughter).

    My wife likes the Sienna front passenger seat better than the Ody because of the little storage bin under the padded armrest of the front doors. The 3rd row seats are easier to access in the Sienna than in the Ody because the Sienna 2nd row seat folds forward and tumbles whereas the Ody 2nd row seat slides forward and then folds forward.

    Both the Ody and Sienna have excellent "toe space" under the front seats for 2nd row passengers and under 2nd row seats for 3rd row passengers but the Odyssey seems to have more leg room for 3rd row passengers when 2nd row seats have the same amount in each.

    The Sienna is a very nice minivan but the Odyssey is a little bit nicer. :shades:
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