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Toyota Yaris

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Comments

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ...I'd rather have a used, nicely equipped Echo than a Yaris. Much better value for the money IMO. Instead of having to pay the ridiculous premium of having a brand new model, you get the same engine and drivetrain, better fuel economy, about the same amount of room, all for a much more reasonable price. Blast away......
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A used car is almost always a better value than a new car. Some things you can not get in an ECHO are a hatch in the back and side curtains. The ECHO is also not as comfortable and refined as the Yaris. And exterior styling... well, IMO the Yaris is much better but that's a matter of taste. But if lowest possible ownership costs are your #1 criterion, a used ECHO is a great choice.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Only problem is, ECHOs are going for $13,000 on Auto Trader if the dealer has 'em.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    There are plenty of used Echos on Autotrader for $4-6K by private sellers. Also, there's no way an Echo is going to sell for $13K when you can get a new Yaris for less than that. They might be asking $13K, but no way they'll get anywhere close to that.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Hey I just call it like I see it...
  • kato1kato1 Member Posts: 64
    "In the case of Corolla, bigger also means more numb, lighter steering, an older model, poorer handling, and worse gas mileage around town."

    sorry to disagree. ive recently been driving some yarii as i really do love the styling of the hatch. ive driven several models locally and this involved 2 exit and entry ramps of an expressway. in all cases, i could not take the yarii at the same speed as my corolla, as the lean in the yarii became too much for my taste. my corolla took those ramps with no noticeable lean.

    i also recently found slalem test numbers that show the yaris somewhat behind the corolla.(i will find them again and post them)

    so, as far as handling goes, i think people get some illusion that because the yaris is smaller than the corolla, it handles better. in fact, i believe this is completely false. indeed several reviewers have complained of significant body lean in the yarii.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Somewhat agreed there.

    The biggest holdup I have/had about the current generation Corolla is the "grandma" factor.

    The Corolla is truly a great car, nothing really "wrong" with it per se, it's just that the LAST way someone would describe it would be edgy or cool (even an S lol).

    Performance wise it's very similar if not superior. But it's not small, cute, and inexpensive... it's just compact, homely, and slightly higher priced. Nothing wrong with it, just a different animal :) .

    T
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No problem disagreeing! These forums would be pretty boring if everyone just agreed all the time! :-)

    My statements were based on my own back to back drives of Yaris with the convenience package and Corolla LE over the same route. And are strictly my own impressions. Except for the gas mileage remark, which is just based on the EPA estimates for the two as well as initial reports of mpg from Yaris owners, which are similar to my own experience in the Echo, which had the same powertrain.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Owning a car that gets 20 mpg would make me pretty edgy.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Also on the Scions and the Yaris there is almost NO markup at all at the dealer level. I think you are correct in that the costs are not all that different from a production perspective.
  • bws2bws2 Member Posts: 7
    I have the Yaris hatchback (auto with package) and love this little car. Unfortunately I may have to sell mine in the VERY near future! :cry: (Career change may be coming so the car payments will have to go). I had bought this car from the dealer with 5,000 miles on it ... its got about 8500 on it now and still like brand new. Like you, I drive a lot of highway miles for work and these little cars are incredible on gas and they actually feel weighty (not light and cheap). The one thing I had to learn about the Yaris was that it does not have a lot of pick up speed, but what's it's at about 50+mph it has lots to offer ~ the key is patience in the lower speeds. Best wishes
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    My ECHO will be six years old in November (build date 08/00) In many respects its still new too!
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Sorry to hear about having to sell your new Yaris. I know where you're coming from though, I've been there myself. BTW, I don't think the manual equipped Yaris has the no pick-up problem. Everything I've read about the car so far says the manually equipped versions are pretty peppy.
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    I've driven the Corolla a couple times as a free rental at service time. Maybe 200 miles total. Also rented a Yaris Hatch at a Toyota RAC dealership. Drove that one maybe 400 miles in a day. It was an Auto with alum. wheels and reclining/folding rear seat. Just under $15,000 with the options. The Yaris was a blast. I was alone and went over the mountains to a resort town and back. One person, no load. If you look at the window sticker on Yaris and Fit, the Corolla and Civic are just about the same, mileage wise, and twice the car. At least twice the car. Sorry. Now they can jack prices up because the Civic and Corolla are no longer the bottom of the lineup. Especially Civic, with the redesign this year. If you live in the City these little cars with Auto tranny are a wise choice, to understate it. Same with Scion XA. I believe young people would love 'em, city or not. The Civic says 40 mpg Hiway, Corolla 38. These little ones get 1-3 better in the city only. I don't have a 20 year old lower back and hind-end and drive 25,000 + per year, so they don't make sense. I DO like them, and wish owners many happy miles.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    I think you are saying the Corolla and Civic are better buys than the Yaris and Fit right now. I think that is correct, and the Corolla is the real bargain in the group.

    My take on this is that the marketplace doesn't react to "intrinsic value" very well. It reacts to "newness" and "fads." Before SUV's were fads, and people who didn't really need one still bought them. Now, ultra-high gas mileage is the "thing" and ultra-small cars like the Yaris and Fit are hot, even for larger bodied people with real passenger and hauling needs. The joke is that Yaris/Fit gas mileage isn't really much better than the Corolla/Civic, and you sure aren't saving much, if any, money by dropping down a whole size category.

    Since the Corolla and Camry are two of Toyota's "high volume" models and they "must" sell a lot of them, resulting availability on the Corolla is great and prices (esp. sale prices) are low. Conversely, the Yaris is a niche car, made in Japan so there aren't any assembly lines over here with punishing fixed costs (Asian consumption is plenty to keep Yaris production lines busy) and thus Toyota can sell the Yaris (and even more so, Honda can sell the Fit) as "premium" niche models instead of "entry" cars below the more mainstream, and reasonably sized, Corolla and Civic.

    So it's classic supply and demand - neither Toyota nor Honda can make many Yarii/Fit overseas for import here (unless Honda wants to delve into Chinese manufactured Fits) and we are in the middle of a "gas crisis," so instead of being a niche car with a small chance of survival (like the Echo) they are hot "it" cars.

    All the arguments here center around whether the Yaris/Fit are better than their siblings, have enough space, have special Dr. Who "Tardis style" gimmickry to make the inside bigger than the outside. Simple truth is, if the Yaris and Fit had been here the past five years, the novelty factor would be gone, and while they would still be seeing an uptick in sales due to their good gas mileage, they would have to be priced a lot more aggressively to compete with the still very-high-mileage Corolla and Civic.
  • dkarschdkarsch Member Posts: 72
    I would agree that the Corolla is probably the best bargain of all the cars you listed. That is why I will be purchasing one as soon as my Tacoma is sold. I'm done with the days of 15 mpg driving.

    I test drove the Yaris and liked it but I never have and never will pay MSRP for a vehicle. While some might say the Corolla styling is dated, it still looks good and will get you from point A to point B effectively. Too many people get an emotional attachment to a vehicle and won't consider the alternatives. Using pricing and techniques from fightingchance.com, I fully expect to get a Corolla for anywhere from $500 TO $1000 below invoice.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Just out of curiosity, what exactly is so horrible about paying MSRP? Especially on a car with less than $1000 markup in the first place?

    You do realize that the Corolla doesn't just LOOK dated, but it IS dated right? The fact alone that they will be replacing it next year will cost you more $$$ in depreciation than you'll save by not paying MSRP...

    I guess it really is true that the "illusion" of a good deal is better sometimes than actually getting one...

    It's why GM artificially inflates their prices: They can offer huge rebates and still get the same profit, all the while people think they got a "killer" deal by buying it for below invoice...

    Just a salesmans take, but what do I know right? I paid MSRP for mine and can already sell it for more than I owe :P

    What a deal!

    T
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    well, it's pretty easy to get a Corolla $2000 below sticker now, maybe more if one is a skilled negotiator. A 1-year-old Corolla is not going to depreciate an ADDITIONAL $2000 just because the redesigned model is introduced.

    But the flip side of what you said is true - Corolla and Camry resale tends to be depressed more than other Toyotas for the first few years because the market is flooded with them. If you are the type to sell your new car within three or four years of purchase, some of the savings you gain by going with the Corolla instead of the Yaris now may be illusory.

    If you keep your car ten years, then who cares? In that case, you may have gotten a better deal now by going with Corolla if increased interior space was one of your top priorities.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kato1kato1 Member Posts: 64
    "The fact alone that they will be replacing it next year will cost you more $$$ in depreciation than you'll save by not paying MSRP... "

    its pretty common knowledge by now that the next gen corolla will not arrive until spring 2008, so dated or not the current model is the one toyota will sell for the next 18-20 months.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    The next model year (2008) will be the redesign.

    When it hits will be largely irrelevant, unless you manage to trade right before it happens.

    In fairness, the Camry, almost uniformly, dropped over $2000 in Manheim Auction Value when the new one finally started arriving (people are funny about "old" bodystyles).

    The Corolla will most likely take an even sharper hit because it will be 2 full model years older than the Camry was whenit was redesigned.

    So is a $2000 higher depreciation compared to the All-New Yaris at MSRP so hard to believe? Look at the Civic if you have to. I'm not saying the Corolla won't still be a nice car, but it's foolish to think it won't take a substantial hit in resale when the new one finally arrives.

    T
  • dkarschdkarsch Member Posts: 72
    T,

    I don't like to pay full price for anything if I can help it. That's not to say that I want the dealer to give it away either. A dealer has to make a profit or they won't be in business too long.

    In your scenario, I should pay MSRP on a Yaris which would give to dealer $800-$900 in addition to the 2% holdback and 1% wholesale finance reserve he will get from Toyota once the vehicle is sold. This doesn't include any additional incentive the dealer might receive for reaching monthly and quarterly sale goals. I like my money just a little too much to give that much of it away.

    I also think that how long you plan on keeping your vehicle influences a buying decision. I normally keep my vehicles at least 6-8 years so I'm not really worried about resale value a few years down the road. I'm more concerned with reliability and frequency of repairs. My corolla purchase will be handed down to my son in 6 years when he graduates from college so that he doesn't have to pay higher insurance premiums.

    If I was the type of person that bought cars every few years then I would be more interested in resale values. However, I don't like to spend my money that way so resale values are out of my equation for the most part. I am also the type of buyer most salespeople hate - I don't get any type of emotional attachment to a vehicle which is what a lot of salesmen use to help them sell cars.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Just for everyones information, holdback and finance reserve are not PURE profit for dealers...

    It's ever frustrating for us guys on the sales side to try and explain it to people without getting a roll-of-the-eyes, but they're NOT the same as markup.

    With almost every purchase you make, there are costs associated with the sale beyond just "profit". Holdback goes to cover the costs associated with floorplanning (and if you don't know what that is, you shouldn't be trying to negotiate holdback...). Finance reserve is to ensure that when a manufacturer offers incentivised financing (0% for 36 months, 2.9% for 60 etc...), the dealership can cover the costs of having a BUSINESS OFFICE (as much as everyone hates the "finance guys").

    I'm not looking for any tears, but you even say yourself that we need to make a profit. WHAT then? Is 8% fair? How about 4%? Everyone SAYS they don't have a problem or that they "understand" we need to make a profit, but somehow you think that by LOSING money we are...

    The "monthly incentives" and "sales goals" that you speak of are the same EVERYWHERE in sales, and yet, I have a hunch you probably don't negotiate on any other retail product you buy (heck, you can't even do it on houses anymore really).

    So what is a fair profit then? And spare me the whole "I know you guys are getting it somewhere..." BS. Is it invoice? 2% over? What?

    And keep in mind, wholeheartedly, the customers that pay us all the money and just don't worry about it (if a few hundred dollars is taking food off of your table, may I suggest a USED car or perhaps just keeping the one you have?), are the happiest (not ony in our perception, but statistically), AND the ones least likely to feel like they still somehow get screwed.

    When someone says to us "I know you have to make a profit", you can only guess what goes through our minds.

    Tell me, what's fair on a new car with high demand?

    T
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    For years I thought there had to be more profit margin in cars. Admittedly some of the money that is "there" IS "hidden" (off-"invoice") like hold-backs, but still at the end of the day this is a VERY competitive business with VERY small margins. The car business has so many myths and so many dealer tricks from the 50's, 60's, and 70's still leave a bad taste in people's mouths that it's hard to believe that nowadays there isn't much markup in a car, or commission for a sales person. In truth, however, the Monroni sticker, Consumer Reports etc., comparison shopping (consumers aren't shy anymore), credit union and other "affiliate" programs, and the Internet have all ruthlessly undercut any substantial profit margins on the typical new car.

    After buying way too many cars over the past 6 years I finally believe this insider's complaints that there isn't as much "fat" in a deal to cut away anymore. There isn't some secret conspiracy of rich car dealers and salespeople trying to con the American public.

    Yes, I have seen loss-leaders on certain cars (even at Toyota - Camry's are loss-leaders every weekend in NorCal and SoCal). And yes, I have seen (and taken advantage of) incredible deals from time to time when dealers and the factory are overstocked. But these are truly, for the most part, LOSS leaders.

    So NO, a dealer isn't robbing a customer by selling at MSRP (although they are making a decent profit if they are sellling a truck or SUV at list).

    In fact, if every dealer sold every car at MSRP then I suspect (assuming the margins didn't change) that the dealers would still be making more money on the used car lot, probably even in the service department, and definitely in the "finance department" with the "extras," than in the new sales division.

    Finally, I don't fault Toyota for having a business model that makes money for the factory, the dealers, and the salespeople (although what others posted about regional distributor abuses of "extra equipment" is saddening). At least it's a sustainable business model. The Big 2.5 need to get on that model, quickly. The old model of big rebates and discounts is really a form of domestic dumping, pricing your new product below total costs (fixed and variable) on the assumption you need to keep an assembly line running. The emerging model is that you can't sell cars at a loss and make it up on volume. :P
  • dkarschdkarsch Member Posts: 72
    T,

    No need to get upset as we're just having a conversation. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

    "Just for everyones information, holdback and finance reserve are not PURE profit for dealers..."

    I understand that the holdback and financial reserve help to pay for expenses other than commissions. I have never tried to get a dealer to give up their holdback. I have also had salespeople outright lie to me and tell me that there is no such thing as holdback. (I understand not every salesperson is like that)

    I normally try and deal directly with the sale manager or the fleet/internet manager as I don't think it's fair, given the small markup I am willing to pay, to take the time of a commissioned sales person. It would be better for the salesperson to spend time with another customer.

    "The "monthly incentives" and "sales goals" that you speak of are the same EVERYWHERE in sales, and yet, I have a hunch you probably don't negotiate on any other retail product you buy"

    On a majority of my purchases, you better believe that I try to get a better price. I learned when I bought my Tacoma that everything in life is negotiable. I have gotten discounts on everything from TV's to exercise equipment just by asking. If you don't at least ask the question, you'll never know if you could have gotten a better price. Call me cheap if you want but I just consider it being a smart consumer.

    Everyone SAYS they don't have a problem or that they "understand" we need to make a profit, but somehow you think that by LOSING money we are...

    If a dealer is truly losing money on every vehicle sale then they should just shut their doors. If I have a price in mind and the dealer would lose money at that price then he is going to tell me to "go pound sand!" and not sell me the vehicle.

    So what is a fair profit then? And spare me the whole "I know you guys are getting it somewhere..." BS. Is it invoice? 2% over? What?

    That figure can vary but I try to stay in the 3-5% range. I had a local Ford salesman who we bought two vehicles from over the years. He treated us with the utmost respect, didn't try the hard sell, was knowledgeable about not only his products but also the competition. He found us the color car my wife was looking for, worked up the figures and it turned out that he had about a 6% markup over invoice. With the service he provided and the work he did for us, I had no problem paying that.

    Got internet quotes for a 2004 Honda Civic. Prices range from $399 below to $600 over invoice. (there was a $400 manufacturer to dealer incentive at the time) Purchased it for $399 below. In and out of the dealer in 25 minutes and was one of the nicest experiences I have had buying a car. I knew the dealer wasn't selling it at a loss and found out later that the incentive was doubled if a certain number of civics were sold. Was I mad or did I feel ripped off?? NO! The dealer gave me his best price up front with out needless haggling, I was happy with the price ($300 below the next closest quote) and he still made some money on the deal. Now that is a smart business man!!

    And keep in mind, wholeheartedly, the customers that pay us all the money and just don't worry about it (if a few hundred dollars is taking food off of your table, may I suggest a USED car or perhaps just keeping the one you have?), are the happiest (not only in our perception, but statistically), AND the ones least likely to feel like they still somehow get screwed.

    All I can say to that one is that there are people in the world who do stupid and foolish things all the time. If someone is willing to pay more than what I perceive to be a fair price for a product, well I can't stop them. But it doesn't mean that I have to. Looking back over all the cars I have purchased over the past 20 years, did I overpay on some of them? Sure I did - especially the first one I bought. Did I blame the salesperson? not really, it was my fault for not being an educated consumer.

    By the way, I did just buy a used car from a local wholesaler for my son to drive the remainder of high school and thru college. She was only asking for $300 markup on a $4700 car (6%) and found us a terrific car for the price. I have since referred two other buyers to her for business and have offered to help her get her inventory listed on the web to increase sales. Now that's a smart businesswoman!!!

    Sorry for the long post but most answers needed more than one line.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is really viewed by the people working in it as retail, where we should just pay MSRP without negotiating, then how come it isn't operated on the Best Buy model - straight hourly pay for sales associates, no commissions and consequently no hard sell, making for a much more pleasant buying experience? Not to mention, most Best Buy sales associates are much more knowledgable about the product than 97% of the car salespeople I have ever dealt with. That is why I do all my purchasing through the internet now. Give me a price, if I like it I will go ahead, fax me a contract, I will sign it and deliver you a check, and we are done. I don't want to sit in the dealership for even 1 minute, I certainly don't want to listen to someone who knows less about the product than I do B.S. me about all they pretend to know about it, and I don't want to endure all the idiotic finance office crap either.

    OK, rant over! :-P

    Truth be told, I think many of the new crop of small cars, Yaris included, are pretty good deals at MSRP, but I have a personal policy of never paying full sticker. I never have, and I never will.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I have driven the Yaris twice now. The first time the sales guy was amiable enough but clearly didn't know squat about it. He was very religious about quoting me the press kit on the car though! :-P

    The second guy didn't even pretend to know anything about the car - I tested him by asking him a couple of simple questions, and he responded by saying he would check it out in the brochure as soon as we got back to the dealership, and really he was just waiting for a better job offer that he hoped was coming through next month, but at least working for Toyota was better than the gig he had previously, working for a Chrysler dealership! :-)

    I would laugh, but then again.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    In the Seattle area we are treated to what the largest Toyota Dealership calls their "COST PLUS INVOICE" pricing method. All upfront and very straight forward. Radio and TV let you know. The only problem is, when they total up the costs to bring you this wonderful vehicle, it is
    ABOVE MSRP!!!!! They don't 'four-square' you right off the bat. When you decline, you are told; 'you aren't going to allow me to pay my cost of doing business?'
    Then they get down to the real prices. You have to do your homework. That homework is a kinda hobby for lots of us here on these boards, but, SCION and SATURN take care of all that for the rest. Or, they pay MSRP plus extended warranty, $1000 wax job, etc, etc....
    The truth is, I'm smart and broke. Would prefer to have the luxury to not even care what the price of gas is, and if I can get a better deal on a vehicle. :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    You do realize what the profit margin at "Best Buy" is right?

    Have you ever seen a TV go on sale for more than 25% off of list and wonder???

    Dealerships over the last 20 years have TRIED the "no pressure, no haggle" method and overwhelmingly it FAILS. What happens is, customers go there first, then go somewhere ELSE to beat their "no haggle" price by $100.00.

    Some of the very best salespeople I have EVER known, knew literally NOTHING about the product. The best one (he sold 30+ a month off of almost pure "fresh" traffic), couldn't even tell you how much horsepower something had.

    What made him a great salesperson was that he was a likeable guy, could get to know you quickly, and could pressure the HECK out of you to do it right then without you even realizing it.

    That is a salesperson. Not someone who can spout off gear ratios and then give you a brochure. The fact is, people like that are the turnover in our business, NOT real salespeople. So what everyone says they want is completely different from who they BUY it from.

    My favorite is when a customer tells a salesperson they're "the best salesperson they've dealt with" as they're LEAVING. Realize that 99.9% (or greater) of the time, they are never coming back. Instead, they run into a REAL salesperson at the next dealer and just buy there instead.

    So if you wonder why salespeople are pushy and don't know much about the product, or why we negotiate, that's why in a nutshell.

    Keep in mind, the "hard-sell" is at it's best when the customer has no clue he/she is getting it. Again, that's the difference between a salesperson and an order taker.

    If you don't "hard-sell", the customer just ends up buying from someone else. It's the sad truth, and I wish it wasn't that way. The "Best Buy" method works because the overwhelming perception is that you can't negotiate a TV or washer and dryer ANYWHERE (outside of a price match here or there). Also, people don't trade-in their old appliances, or apply for a secured loan (just a credit card).

    Non-salespeople SHOULD work at Best Buy. Many of our people "trying out" the car business end up there. It's not an easy job by ANY stretch. It's made worse because you simply can't just be knowledgeable and no-pressure. Sometimes even I'd like it to be that way too, but then I know better...

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    You know, I haven't even brought up Scion yet :)

    Look at our little offspring go! MSRP is just fine for them... Keep in mind, you can't go down the road and beat it by $100.00. That particular model works because EVERYONE does it. And you STILL have to be quite the salesperson :P

    Selling for MSRP has protected resale, made the process easy, and customers are the happiest Toyota has ever seen...

    All because customers are paying "too much" :P

    Go figure!

    T
  • brucepadgettbrucepadgett Member Posts: 30
    I think that people looking for a Scion, particular the xB, are looking for something off the beaten path. It's a rather unique-looking vehicle, so I'd have to believe one may be more predisposed to buying it than a car with a more conventional body. And both the xB are xA are loaded with standard features, as well. That one-two punch greases the wheels to complete a sale.

    Now all Scion needs to do is place chocolate in the cars and have the sales staff applaud as the customer drives off...
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Exactly, and since you reference Saturn, isn't it funny how that has been one of GM's most successful ventures over the last 15 years?

    Funny how no discount at all off of MSRP can generate so many happy customers... Almost makes you think that if they were of a quality closer to Toyota/Honda they'd have a real winner on their hands :)

    The Yaris is essentialy a Scion. One of the MANY reasons I had no issue paying MSRP.

    Just as an update to the topic, we have been discounting them a tad ($100-$200) if we HAVE to, just to make a deal. I guess for all you folks that "never have and never will" pay MSRP that works right? Since you "know" we have to make a profit??? (insert sarcasm here :P )

    T
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No offense, man, but the attitude you have demonstrated is EXACTLY why I deal only with internet/fleet nowadays. And exactly why almost everyone hates car salespeople. And why Saturn has the rep for the best customer service in the industry except for Lexus.

    I know they train you that way (you are in sales right? I do remember you said you work for a Toyota dealership). I realize that is "the system". Back when I still took it personally, I used to dealership-hop, taking a half hour or more of a salesman's time, just so I could turn them down and walk away. But that was my misspent youth....now I just sigh over the lack of service in the car sales biz, and buy my cars by e-mail.

    There isn't a car sold that you can't get at least 5% off sticker on, and there isn't a one that you can't get an exact quote on at that price over the internet, without ever leaving the comfort of your home.

    And that includes the Yaris - I confirmed that recently with e-mails to a nearby dealership that has loud ads on Yaris specials, which responded by offering me Yaris l/b manuals with convenience package (choice of two colors in stock) at $11,759 and 'S' sedan manuals with power package with alloys, fog lamps, and spoiler for $14,975.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dkarschdkarsch Member Posts: 72
    your sarcasm which comes through does make it hard to try and have a conversation with you. You remind me of my neighbor - she's an attorney and also thinks she is right all the time.

    Some of the very best salespeople I have EVER known, knew literally NOTHING about the product. The best one (he sold 30+ a month off of almost pure "fresh" traffic), couldn't even tell you how much horsepower something had.

    The best salesman that I have know was the Ford guy in a previous post. He knew his product inside and out, didn't pressure you and was so good at what he did that he didn't take walk ups at the dealership for over 5 years. All of his business was referrals from satisfied customers. (now that is a true salesman!) It seems your sales friend was most interested in just closing the deal instead of making sure the product fit the customers needs. If it was any other way them he would have know his product a little better.

    What made him a great salesperson was that he was a likable guy, could get to know you quickly, and could pressure the HECK out of you to do it right then without you even realizing it.

    Do you now understand why most car salespeople are disliked by the general public??? they eventually figure out after the fact that they were pressured into buying something they didn't need, really couldn't afford or isn't a good fit for them but by that time it's too late.

    If you don't "hard-sell", the customer just ends up buying from someone else.

    That a mighty broad brush you painting that statement with. That is not always the case and you know it. If you treat a knowledgeable buyer with respect and don't play games, you have an excellent chance of winning his business.

    Funny how no discount at all off of MSRP can generate so many happy customers...

    The only buyers who are happy paying MSRP are the ones who are so feed up with pushy salespeople that they will avoid confrontation at any cost. They fool themselves into thinking they got a good deal just because they didn't have to put up with the typical salesperson BS! Deep down they know they overpaid but rationalize it against the (shudder) thought of having to negotiate a lower price.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Now hold on just a second before you make assumptions. This IS my profession. I wouldn't claim you were a know-it-all if you happened to be versed in yours...

    "If you don't "hard-sell", the customer just ends up buying from someone else"

    OF COURSE there are always exceptions. But they are definitely in the minority.

    It may be a broad brush, but it's the absolute truth. If you don't believe me, walk a mile in the shoes of a salesman. If a customer leaves, chances are you'll never see them again. No matter how you treat them. It's something every salesperson learns very early on.

    "typical salesperson BS"

    What is that exactly? Did I mention lying cheating or stealing so much as once? No, so what is it then? Pressure? Being asked to buy?

    "The only buyers who are happy paying MSRP are the ones who are so feed up with pushy salespeople that they will avoid confrontation at any cost."

    You're kidding me right? Talk about broad strokes!?!? Saturn does it, Scion does it, MOST highline manufacturers do it (go offer a Mercedes store invoice on a car...). And yet, no one has to "rationalize" paying a fair profit.

    Go figure...

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    No offense taken. I am in internet/fleet, just FYI :P (it's why I spend so much time here on Edmumds between customers). I have been off of the "floor" for quite some time now, have a very loyal customer base of my own, but still have many friends that are on the "floor" and realize that more often than not, that's where most customers end up.

    Your example of what you did as a misspent youth is EXACTLY why they still train us that way, you realize that right? You aren't an isolated case of someone who wasted an awful lot of a fully commissioned salesman's time. I don't blame you one bit either (and at least you didn't succumb to the overwhelming pressure you endured :P j/k), but you have to realize it's a two way street.

    "There isn't a car sold that you can't get at least 5% off sticker on"

    There are a LOT of cars sold that you can't get 5% off on. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a know-it-all ;)

    And out of curiosity, how much do they discount Saturn and Lexus these days? And yet they're still the happiest... go figure...

    As for the Yaris, if there's someone out there selling them at invoice that doesn't shock me at all. It's routine for us when we have stock to not miss a deal. As long as we aren't losing money (and sometimes we even do that), it's pretty much fair game. As I said before, typically it's no more than a $200 or so discount though.

    To try and stay on topic, I'll add that I just got a "buy bid" from my appraiser of 11000. Considering I paid 12485, I think anyone paying between invoice and sticker is still doing just fine.

    MSRP isn't too much to pay. I didn't pay it to just avoid dealing with salesman "BS" either lol... I saw the car I wanted, saw enough value in it, and paid it.

    Strangely I don't feel screwed at all...

    T
  • statstat Member Posts: 19
    Well, NOW HEAR THIS:

    I just paid INVOICE for a BRAND NEW 4 door sedan --automatic Yaris in the SE states. My out the door price with tax, tag, title, etc. was $13,700 and I did NOT pay the dealer any doc fees or for the Yaris Mats -- which I got for free. The yaris had 4 miles on it. (FYI -- the sticker price on my car was $13,497 plus tax, tag, title and doc fees. The MSRP price with doc fees, tax, tag and title was $14,868 -- so I saved OVER $1100 on this car).

    I don't know what some of ya'll are smoking in this thread, but MSRP for an entry level car is just plain nonsense. If you don't ask and you don't HAGGLE -- then you don't deserve a discount. It's just that simple.

    I made offers to numerous dealers and only 2 dealers in the entire SE came up to bat to offer me a car for INVOICE price (as in TRUE invoice) on this car. The rest played the MSRP game and I simply turned them down. I ticked off a lot of dealers who simply refused to come off sticker and simply stood by their mantra "we never discount these cars -- ever".

    SO, live and learn: When the money is in your hands, YOU are in control. No one else.
  • statstat Member Posts: 19
    When someone says to us "I know you have to make a profit", you can only guess what goes through our minds.

    Tell me, what's fair on a new car with high demand?

    As CLOSE to "0 Dollars" as possible. How's that?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    "As CLOSE to "0 Dollars" as possible. How's that?"

    Wow... and after that... does anyone wonder why salespeople aren't the way they'd like them to be?

    Thanx for proving my point, and enjoy the car...

    T
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    Lots of back and forth here. Kinda fun, but reading between the lines is important.
    This is EDMUNDS.COM
    One of the best things I've found here is TMV
    True Market Value. It tells you what the going price is.
    What they already sold for. Did I miss something?
    I found that stuff first, then much later the Forums.
    Off the point, when a salesman looks over my shoulder to somewhere in back of me instead of my mouth area when I'm asking/saying something important, I know I had better do my homework. If I haven't, I'll leave and will come back later. If the exact same model/trim can sell for a different price, at the same time, same lot, how in the H E double-toothpick do you think we buyers are going to present ourselves?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    If everyone paid Edmunds TMV my job would be the easiest on the planet...

    They don't. Edmunds TMV on a Yaris is NOT invoice.

    T
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    This is hilarious, ROTFLMAO but I believe you that it's true:

    Some of the very best salespeople I have EVER known, knew literally NOTHING about the product. The best one (he sold 30+ a month off of almost pure "fresh" traffic), couldn't even tell you how much horsepower something had.

    What made him a great salesperson was that he was a likeable guy, could get to know you quickly, and could pressure the HECK out of you to do it right then without you even realizing it.

    That is a salesperson. Not someone who can spout off gear ratios and then give you a brochure. The fact is, people like that are the turnover in our business, NOT real salespeople. So what everyone says they want is completely different from who they BUY it from.

    My favorite is when a customer tells a salesperson they're "the best salesperson they've dealt with" as they're LEAVING. Realize that 99.9% (or greater) of the time, they are never coming back. Instead, they run into a REAL salesperson at the next dealer and just buy there instead.

    So if you wonder why salespeople are pushy and don't know much about the product, or why we negotiate, that's why in a nutshell.

    Keep in mind, the "hard-sell" is at it's best when the customer has no clue he/she is getting it. Again, that's the difference between a salesperson and an order taker.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    The reason it has to be true, is that current shoppers have the attention span of a gnat and no loyalty whatsoever. Consumer Reports and advocates have created a monster.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    Thanx for the support =).

    We all love the heartwarming stories of salespeople that are everything you want them to be and then some...

    Unfortunately for me, I live in reality, and realize that the more the consumers try to get salespeople "As close to ZERO as possible", the worse the problem becomes.

    I'd imagine some people (not in sales) still rely on the profits their company makes as their livleyhood. Imagine the ill-will if people started insinuating that it wasn't fair for your profession to make any profit at all...

    There are probably a lot of people on here that think salespeople are just out to get them, and they are at least partially right. Because it's become so hard to make ANY profit these days, it makes salespeople extra hungry when they can.

    Far be it for any of us to want to earn a living...

    T
  • charlotte01charlotte01 Member Posts: 1
    Thanks for being rational. I have never paid MSRP or anything close. At worst case I have paid Invoice plus $200 when I bought the Avalon when it first came out. I am in Charlotte, cal you point me in the right direction to get the Yaris? I would of purchased it today if they would of come off of MSRP+.

    Thanks for your time
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    It's uncomfortable to get ambushed. If you go as far as a test-drive that is a whole different story.
    Every time I get an oil change I look at every new vehicle on the lot. Now and then sit in one for a minute.
    I'd like to buy new every year. A Sienna CE w/rear Disk Brake Package would be fun for a year!!! Drive a lot of miles and get the oil changed at Dealerships, so am there every couple months or sooner. Have a 4cyl Tacoma which has a timing chain which is lubricated by the engine oil. You got to keep the oil CLEAN. I did go to Honda and Nissan to look at and sit in the Versa and Fit. Didn't drive 'em, just looked, and let the salesman know that's all I was up to. Real curious about these little ones, that's why I checked this board recently and started posting. I had driven a rental Yaris Hatch a fair piece. Will back off and leave owners to it!
    My employer charges plenty for my services. I'd probably consider me too expensive :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Member Posts: 296
    "My employer charges plenty for my services. I'd probably consider me too expensive:)"

    Good for you! Now everyone flame away for him "stealing" his customers hard earned money for not providing his services for as close to free as possible :P j/k...

    Being "Ambushed" is entirely relative. Last I checked, nearly every customer that walks in the door is a competent adult, free to make whatever choices he/she sees fit. Hard as it is to believe, we can't threaten anyone into buying a car.

    Talk about perception being reality though lol...

    :)

    T
  • robertknrobertkn Member Posts: 94
    The reason it has to be true, is that current shoppers have the attention span of a gnat and no loyalty whatsoever. Consumer Reports and advocates have created a monster.

    I would like to go on record as stating that it was specifically Consumer Reports and such advocates which drew my attention to the Yaris via the Echo. I invesigated both local dealers in my city through the BBB and made a decision as to who I thought I would prefer to do business with. (Not much difference in the reports really. Both were good, but the one I went with had one less hit.) The "other" dealer had a pair of Yaris sedans in stock mid-summer. But, the salesman who approached me there was condescending and also told me they would have some liftbacks "in a couple weeks" which was BS. That and the BBB report caused me to take a walk into the other dealership in town.

    After getting a price from the 2nd dealership the salesman told me, "I know you're going to walk out of here and go get a cheaper price from somebody else and buy there. I just know that's what you're going to do." He also told me he would call me in a couple days to see what I thought.

    Well, guess what? I thought about the purchasing decision for a couple days--not the price, but the decision as to whether to buy the car, or not. The salesman never called me, so I called him and said, "Hey, you said you would call me in a couple days." There was silence and then he said, "I forgot." I asked him a couple questions on the phone, then went in and placed an order.

    So, please clarify for me who is loyal and who has the attention span of a gnat. :P

    Postscript: I will add, however, that my car is not here yet although, based on the timeframe quoted me, it should be here this week. I want to be loyal to my salesman and have not "bugged" him. But, my loyalty is not "blind" and there are limits to my patience. I NEED my Yaris!!
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    You're as pushy and persistent as a car salesman. Oh, never mind............:)
    I won't even check the board anymore, you can have the last word.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the conversation got a little silly.

    The optional stereo in the Yaris is nothing to write home about. About all you can say is that it is a better stereo than the base stereo in the Corolla. And the salesman told me it was 160 watts total power, but I think he was wrong and it's actually 120 watts, or 30 WPC. And the sound is fairly muddy, and it is too bad they didn't make a system with separate tweeters optional on this model. How easy and inexpensive would that have been?

    And kneisl, don't be silly. Decent stereos with enough power to reproduce low frequencies at lower volumes START at 50 watts per channel IMO, and of course what really matters is not this peak rating but rather how much continuous power the amp can put out. This number also goes up with peak power, but has as much to do with the stereo's design as it does with just the peak power rating.

    About the only factory Toyota stereos that impress me rather than just being adequate are the 440-watt optional system in the new RAV4, which has good imaging, and the new optional (9-speaker?) system in the new Camry. And of course, the stereos in most of the Lexi (except the ES350) are pretty darn good too! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    To me a 400 watt stero must be like those ghetto blasters you hear driving by.
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