Porsche 911

Mr_Shiftright · February 2007

The perception out there (real or imagined) is that the 993 is a stronger engine. Porsche Racing seems to think so anyway. We'll see in a couple years how the resale values go.

blckislandguy · February 2007

Designman, nice post. I hadn't heard the tempering angle before.

Incidentally , years ago, if a rebuilt engine's rings hadn't seated, the school solution was to throw some Bon Ami into the carburetor. Those rings would then seat ASAP. (We won't discuss what happened to the bearings.) Lots of people resisted using Chrome rings when they first came out because cast iron rings will quickly seat (and are much cheaper). Now much better honing techniques (i.e, "plateau honing") have eliminated a lot of this.

I will try to get a link to the AERA Tech Bulletin I alluded to.

rogueag · February 2007

Thanks for the pre purchase inspection comment and asking for the service history. I live in Lubbock and am currently in my third Mercedes CLK series. I have had a number of manual transmissions but now an automatic is easier for me. I have read a lot about the Tiptronic system and believe it is the right option for me. I am going to Dallas on Tuesday and will make my final decision then. The initial negotiated price is $69,000 that appears okay. However, I am looking for a better trade value for my 03 CLK 500 with 40K miles and five months of warranty left. The dealer sight unseen offered $23K but I thinking more like $25K so it should be an interesting day.

hotrod81 · February 2007

After making my earlier reply, I wish I had just said "a-men brother, you are preaching to the choir" (concerning the difference between VW and Porsche). btw, my 1972 beetle had modified camshaft, carberator, wheels, etc... Kind of reminds me of the kids today souping up their little cars. (They probably don't say "souping".) Boy, this weather better warm up soon...and wash the salt off the roads.

chrmdome · February 2007

Greetings:

There was never any intention to seek a similarity between the present day 997 and VW mechanically. My VW was used to make a point about oil. The interesting association between the two car manufacturers is the following, and should be common knowledge. History! Reviewing our history here folks......, for those who are uninformed, the very first Porsches had volkswagen engines and every other shared part they could use ( no I'm not going down the road of shared parts again. ha..ha..ha. ).Porsche was Hitlers best buddy and Hitler commissioned Porsche to make the " peoples car"...what do you think "volkswagen" translates to in english???? My 1976 914 2.0 liter had a volkswagen engine in it. Karmen made early Porsche bodies, Karem was considered a volkswagen company...body builder that has... yep volkswagen engines and parts. Presently , Porsche , with all its big bucks profits is heavily invested in, you guessed it...the Volkswagen company. A&E , the History channel has a CD available on thier website that you can purchase..." The History of Porsche " Although not the most up to date piece of work, it clearly describes the beginnings of Volkswagen....Mr. Porsche owned the company. After WWII Porsche became involved in racing and the Porsche was developed. Man, even Porsche's sister owned the Recarro seat company in France! To think that Chevy and GMC have no common background is to be uninformed, the same is true about VW and Porsche. And even though I own a 997, my Porsche IS a glorified volkswagen..a very very extremely glorified one at that! A volkswagen on steroids.

Cheers...It's finally raining in San Diego..no sprints today. It was 83 degrees on Saturday. Got a chance to deposit some rubber on the asphalt.

Chromedome

Mr_Shiftright · February 2007

A VW air-cooled engine is really a piece of cheap junk compared to a Porsche, to be honest about it, and it's always been like that. Regardless of the origins of 60 years ago, the two cars have diverged so much that it's like comparing a mouse to a man, even though the mouse has about 92% of our DNA.

As for the 914 (I car I really like by the way), they didn't put the Porsche name on it in Europe--they wouldn't have dared. The 914 did have a Porsche transmission and some front end parts however--the joke was "The 914---VW performance at Porsche repair prices!"

The present 911 is still a remarkable evolution of the 1965 design. Probably the most radical departure was the 996---but modern standards of comfort, noise level, and accessories rather demanded it.

Still an exciting car after all these years, and still a 200,000 mile ++ engine, rather than a 60,000 mile VW engine (if you were lucky)

chile96 · February 2007

good luck with your negotiations on tuesday. more technical info about the car can be found in the forums at www.rennlist.com

chrmdome · February 2007

Sir:

If we follow the thread back... nothing was ever mentioned or implied about any similarity between the present day 997 and a 1965 VW. But my comments on the history of Porsche and its deep roots in the VW company stand. Mr Porsche made the first VW!!! Early Porsche was born from VW The point I made about my 1965 VW was in regards to the general topic of Mobil 1 oil, ring seating and how the finding of metal shavings on my magnetic oil plug in my 65 bug ,converted me to a " oil changing fanatic ". I purchased a 997 because I didn't want a Golf... but I must say the VW Phantom is cool, but way over-priced. Let's see where that analysis takes us.

Chromedome

kyfdx · February 2007

Can't post it... it is in another forum..

Anyway, the guy lives in Little Rock.. He says it is serviced by the only Porsche repair shop in Arkansas (independent). The scratches/dings are in the rear driver's side quarter panel, along the wheel arch.. really, really small..

He wants to sell it to buy an '03 Z4 3.0.. Guess he wants a convertible..

sirdarby1 · February 2007

I am looking to purchase an 03 C2 911 converible. 18K miles.

what does C2 mean. it's a 6 speed with Nav

habitat1 · February 2007

"2" means rear wheel drive, as opposed to "4" meaning AWD.

I thought the "C" meant "Coupe", since I often see coupes referred to as "C2" or "C4S", etc. For Cabriolet's, I usually see them referred to as just "Cab", "Cab 4", "Cab S" , etc. so calling a convertible a C2 may technically be a misuse of the "C".

Now, someone tell me that the "C" stands for Carrera and I'll shut up.

nyccarguy · February 2007

Contrary to many others here (and in the Porsche world), I really never liked the 993. I started to dig the 911 when the 996 model came out.

Growing up my favorite Posche was a 944 Turbo. I always like the 928s (plural) also.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2007

944 Turbo was a fabulous handling car, 928s a fine highway cruiser (GT car), both are still bargains compared to the older used 911s.

kyfdx · February 2007

I don't know for sure... but, I think the "C" does stand for Carrera..

designman · February 2007

I'm not totally sure either but I think C2, C2S, C4S etc. are just media abbreviations, they are not official Porsche designations. If I had to guess I'd say this started in the classifieds. The official model designations are Carrera, Carrera Cabriolet, Carrera S, Carrera 4S etc. We see "C2S cab" etc. so it stands to reason that the C stands for Carrera. The official Porsche internal designations have numbers like 997 followed by another numerical suffix.

BTW, 944s have a big cult following particularly the 951 (Turbo).

designman · February 2007

Contrary to many others here (and in the Porsche world), I really never liked the 993. I started to dig the 911 when the 996 model came out.

I hear you. I never liked the front of the 993 but the wide-body rear is special. I also like the spartan 993 interior. There are two camps. Some really see the 996 styling as a good modern evolution. Others can't stand it. I think the design of the 996 interior is splendid if you can forgive the cheap-looking materials. 996 created quite a schism what with the water-cooled engine sans dry sump, fried-egg headlamps and radical interior. They took that radical departure even a step further with 997; not with looks, rather with handling and steering.

sirdarby1 · February 2007

"I am looking to purchase an 03 C2 911 converible. 18K miles."

I found a silver one with Black and black (top and int) is $54,000 a fair price. It looks pristine. How much is an extended warranty on one of these boys.

alsolia · February 2007

I am in the market for a 2005 C2 Cab (997). Even though most dealers try to sell this car for 72K+, i think they are dreaming!
What would you guess the right price is? I am thinking more like 67-68K max for a 15K miles with Xenon, Bose.
What's the trade in value for this car? around 60-62k?
Any comment / advice would be appreciated

thanks
PS: I live in FL so market might be a little higher

spechtbach · February 2007

72K for a used 911 C2 Cab seems high. You might look for a left over 2006 or a low option new car. The cars can be ordered any way you want. The dealers have a large mark up & they might be flexible in the winter on a Cab.

spechtbach · February 2007

Interesting article in the Feb 24 "Economist" magazine

rogueag · February 2007

I just bought my 05 cab yesterday in Dallas. It has 17,000 miles with Bose, Xenon, Tiptronic, Nav,Sports Chrono, Power heated seats and 19" wheels. I gave $69,000 for it. I did a little research and felt comfortable with my deal. The car is my first Porsche and it handles and sounds awesome. I hope this information helps. Good luck.

habitat1 · February 2007

Figuring out the "right" price on a used 911 isn't as easy as looking up the vehicle on Edmunds or Kelly Blue Book.

Edmunds (sorry Host) is ridiculously horrible relative to it's list of options. KBB is better, but not by much. As I'm sure you are aware, with 3 pages of options, the difference between a low optioned, average optioned, high optioned and absurdly optioned 911 can easily be $25,000+ More on a base (non S) model that doesn't include xenons, PASM, etc. as standard. The first $10,000-$15,000 include some useful (valuable) options, after that, it starts getting into diminishing return cosmetic options.

Also, the difference in model year, if there weren't changes, is important, but you need to consider in-service date (warranty left) and mileage (tires and service requirements).

I happen to have a 2005 Cab S that had an MSRP of $102,880. That includes $13,000 +/- of options, including Bose/6CD, Nav, Power/Full Leather/Heated seats, sport chrono, sport exhaust and a few other options. Purchased new in September 2005 (as 2006's were just arriving) for a $10k discount. Current MSRP on a comparable 2007 would be about $106,000.

According to my dealer, a fair private party price on my car (17 months old, today perfect condition, 12,500 miles) would be about 25% under current comparable MSRP ($77-78k +/-). At his dealership, they would be pricing it as a certified car at $83k +/- with some room for negotiation. It is Seal Grey and Black, an easy combo relative to re-sale.

Figure out what the MSRP was of the car you are considering and work back from there.

alsolia · February 2007

Thanks to all of you for your replies. You all confort me into my assesment of a 2005 Cab.
Habitat1, I think that your number of 25% of MSRP is exactly what I was thinking about. Therefore a 2005 C2 Cab with limited options and MSRP around 88-90K should worth 66-68K... exactly what I want to pay for that.
Proposing that amount to a dealer for a non-certified car should trigger the deal!!

thanks again.. I will let you know as soon as I have my car

habitat1 · February 2007

FWIW, if you can get the car certified (7 year, 100k warranty?), I'd be tempted to pay at least $2,500 more for that. The best price I've found for an extended warranty on my car is $4,000+ for 100k miles.

shulse · February 2007

I agree the PASM is very noticeable. Here is a question, do you order that as an option on the base Carrera, or get it with the bundle on the S model?

I'm in the middle of this decision right now, let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,
-Scott

habitat1 · February 2007

You didn't ask me, but my thoughts would be to go for the "S" model rather than add PASM to the base. You'll also get xenons (highly recommended), 19" wheels/tires (295 series rear) and sport steering wheel, not to mention the 355hp 3.8 liter engine. If the "S" vs. base + added options price becomes less than $7,000, I think the "S" is worth the difference in performance and resale. And with PASM and xenons, you are practically there.

tagman · February 2007

Scott,

I'll agree with habitat1... but let me emphasize that the S's extra ponies are significant enough, IMO... and Porsche HP is almost always worth the premium, also IMO.

But regardless, I'm glad you recognize that PASM is worth it... even if only for those "special" drives once in a while going through the back twisty roads.

TagMan

hotrod81 · March 2007

I thought that NHS "National Humane Society" sounded strange. They are raffling a Porsche in the latest edition of Excellence. HUS (Humane Society of the United States) is the one I am familiar with. Looked up NHS at give.org (charity reporting agency) and here is what they say:

"has not responded to Alliance requests for information or has declined to be evaluated in relation to the Alliances Standards for Charity Accountability. While participation in the Alliances charity review efforts is voluntary, the Alliance believes that this lack of cooperation may demonstrate a lack of commitment to transparency and accountability. "

hmmm.

sirdarby1 · March 2007

Consumer reports rates the overall reliability horribly on these 911s except for 1997 and 2004.

What happened in these years that make these cars the exception.

I also notice that used cars for 97 and 2004 reflect an exceptionally high price tag.

What gives?

tagman · March 2007

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! CR might as well be from OZ.

Fluctuations to the extent shown by their statistics are of little value. If these cars were living in the shop we'd all be talking about it. It just isn't so.

Mathematically, an ultra reliable car can make a reliable car look like a shop lizard. Case in point, if the ultra reliable car has an average of .5 shop visits per 100 cars annually (1 per 200), then a car that has only 1.5 average shop visits per 100 vehicles is 200% worse than the top model. A car visiting the shop 3 times is 500% worse! That SOUNDS absolutely horrible, and is a statistical nightmare, but in reality it is actually a reasonably reliable car that is represented to be totally unreliable... making the statistics meaningless... but all the hype sells more worthless magazines, and lots more Toyotas.

TagMan

nyccarguy · March 2007

I saw a Brown/Tan 1978 911 SC this afternoon in my condo complex's parking lot. It looked to be in really good shape.

chrmdome · March 2007

Gents:

I presently own a 2006 997 2CS coupe, the first Carrera White 2006 in California. The release date for the 2006 997, I beleive , was Oct 1, 2006. Picked my car up September 30, 2006..but whatever. In my humble opinion, the best looking Porsche 911 ever! ( 993 very close 2nd place ).
Check out any website that pictures the 2008 997 with the slightly tweeked front end and the mildly tweeked rear end lights and bumper. The only thing I would have to say is WARNING!!!! Porsche should back off just a little on the tweeked styling before they turn this car ugly. At what point does the " Bangle " design take this beautiful car into the relm of the slightly wierd with the 7 series BMW and the 2004 5 series? Porsche, please be careful. Don't ruin a GREAT thing.

Chromedome

chrmdome · March 2007

Correction.. picked up in 2005.. ooops Chromedome

habitat1 · March 2007

Sounds like we picked up our cars on about the same date (mine is a 2005 911S Cab that I bought new in September, 2005).

Just out of curiosity, how many miles do you have (12,400 here) and how are your tires doing as far as treadwear (mine appear to have at least 50%+ tread left). I was initally told to only expect 12-15k miles out of the rear tires, but it looks like they are going to make it a lot longer than that. I have the Pirellis. I've heard the Michilins are even better. Your experience?

Any other issues you have had in the last 17+ months?

chrmdome · March 2007

Hi:

I work about 3 blocks from where I live and have been driving another vehicle to work other than my " toys " . I have a 2004 BMW 5 series with 6300 miles on the clock and my Porsche has 2230 miles on it. The 997 is my toy and I drive it only for pleasure, on my days off and on the weekends. A new Porsche 911 was a dream of mine since I was 18 years old ( I'm now 57 ) and I saw my first 911 in a show room here in San Diego, Alan Johnson Porsche in La Mesa California. I fell in love with the quality... the quality was my main issue. Anyways, my tires are like new, as you would expect with only 2230 miles. I have already rotated the BMW's tires at 4,000 miles and see basically no wear in the BMW's tires. Unfortunately, since the Porsche's tires can't be rotated, I guess we are at the mercy of whatever wear the tires allow us. Giving up long life for better traction and " stickiness " is the issue. I have not priced new tires for the 997 yet, with the rate I'm going it will probably be the year 2020 before I need new ones, but I guess is you have to ask the price you should not own a Porsche. -My daughters own Hondas and I'll let them worry about that.

Chromedome

drmatara · March 2007

Hi there,

I have an '06 C2S Cab that I bought in April last year. I currently have 11800 miles on Michelin PS2 and just like in your case, it appears to have at least 50% tread left, so it looks like they will last more than 20K miles which is fantastic.

megasrt8 · March 2007

Hello,

I have a 2002 carrera cab 6 speed. The issue with the clutch is:
When I shift gears and accel, the engine revs but the car doesn't accel with the revving. So when I go from 2nd to 3rd and accel, the car acts like the clutch is not fully depressed.

Any ideas???

kyfdx · March 2007

Does it slip when you take off from a stop?

Unfortunately, it sounds like you need a new clutch..

911nut · March 2007

I have the same vehicle and year. Yes, it is definately the clutch, approximate cost of $1500.00. I had mine replaced last year at 30,000 miles. Curious to know the amount of miles you have on your vehicle. Funny though, I have always driven standard cars and have never replaced a clutch until now. In fact, I still have a 94 BMW 3 series with 90,000 miles with several track events and yet the clutch works great. I hope this helps.

Claires · March 2007

Folks, I've made a new topic and have moved the recent posts about this over there:
Porsche 911 Tires & Wheels.

ifpsken · March 2007

Any comments on remapping? REVO, GIAC any experience out there that one could share??

bsissi · March 2007

I bought a used 2004 911 several months ago. I soon discovered it used about 1.3 qts /500 mi. I have had a local dealer start an oil monitor but after several monitors to confirm this approx useage they printed out a factory notice that says "should not exceed 1.6 qts/622 mi". I'm trying to decide if this is a "in warranty smoke screen" or if this is normal. I've got about 32K miles and am running Mobil One. I would appreciate some feedback from you experts out there.

habitat1 · March 2007

I have a 2005 911S w/ 12.6k miles. It used some oil during the break in period and the first 5-7k miles, but I haven't had to add any oil since a complete oil change 5 months and 2,100 miles ago. I do think some oil use is considered normal in a 911, but 1.3 quarts in 500 miles seems extraordinary. I'm assuming that's not 250 two mile jaunts to the grocery store?

Has the car been checked for the RMS (rear main seal) leak? Do you notice any oil drops on the ground where you park?

stew7 · March 2007

Hi guys I parked in a lot at the mall for a short time. I came out my 911 was gone . I had recently installed a GPS tracking device. I pulled out my hand held and logged ont to the gps web sight in about a minute it gave me the exact location of my car. That was the first time I needed it, I was. Next time I will take the keys. This is a great thing to have .

habitat1 · March 2007

Next time I will take the keys. This is a great thing to have .

So is a brain. :confuse:

bsissi · March 2007

The dealer checked for leaks and found none. No evidence of leaks on ground. Occasionally I see some smoke when restarting and taking off. I had a similar dealer oil consumption mandate from cadillac (when I had one)and but when I checked the web I found many customers with the same problem, but finally I got them to tear the engine down, during this time they told me they knew all along what the problem was (rings and pistons).

dhanley · March 2007

Spam spam spam spam, spammity spam!

stew7 · March 2007

This thing really works. dont be so narrow minded. You can tack anything with it.

fedlawman · March 2007

So what kind of GPS systems do you sell?

chrmdome · March 2007

Greetings:

Now, please, let me get this straight. We ( read you) are smart enough to have an income that allows us to purchase a $100K + sportscar, smart enought to get a tracking system installed in that car, smart enough to use the unit to find the car but NOT smart enough to take your key out of the ignition and lock that $100K+ car and dumb enough to admit it....mmmmmmm! Something just doesn't figure here???

Chromedome

Porsche 911

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