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Porsche 911

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  • Ohh no! I just got a 2006 carrera s and for some reason when i throttle in 2nd and 3rd gear, the car tuggs(throttle choppy from 2-3000 revs)... I was told by the dealer to drive it hard out of the gate and while I am not beating on it, i did open the revs up to 5.5 in 1st, 2nd before oil temp hit 200. I am under 200 miles in the breaking period. Please advise.. I am really worried...
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the car tuggs" and the throttle is "choppy". Do you have sport chrono activated?

    What it sounds like you need to do is test drive another 911 S or two at your dealership and see if they behave the same as yours. If they don't, I'd have the service manager give yours a test drive and see what he says. My car did seem to become smoother in terms of engine response and clutch engagement during and after the break in period, but I wouldn't have described it "tugging" or "choppy" when it was new.

    I wouldn't worry too much about hitting 5.5k rpms a few times, but I wouldn't make a further habit of it, especially when the engine is cold, during the first 1,000 miles.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
  • Pages 16 "Break in hints..." and 82 "Starting procedures" say not to exceed 4200 rpm for first 2000 miles, and to warm up the engine before exceeding 4200 rpm.
    Patience...
  • thanks again for the info.. will speak to the service manager and test drive.. what i mean by choppy is when i press down on the gas, as it picks up speed (low to med revs), it is not smooth (ie it jerks back a few times like it was runing out of fuel).
  • My 1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer did the same thing early this AM on Block Island until I warmed it up.

    Have you warmed up the 911? Are you on the original fuel that it came over with? If you can fill it up with fresh fuel. Or is it dirty fuel?

    Your problem is either inconsequential (bad fuel) or potentially very big. I'd find out.
  • I'm planning ot buy a turbo and am considering a 2007. Does anyone know if it's possible to get one under MSRP or is the demand too high? Also, I understand the ED cars don't count against dealer inventory. Does that mean I have a better chence of getting a discounted price if I go that route?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "I'm planning ot buy a turbo and am considering a 2007."

    That's good, since there wasn't a 2006 and the 2008 is a year+ away.

    "Does anyone know if it's possible to get one under MSRP"

    Doubtful. Most of the ones that have arrived to date have been pre-sold. The earliest my dealer could get me one is November/December. I could probably get a nominal "courtesy" discount, as a previous 911 customer, but it would be nominal. New customers will likely pay MSRP. I'm not seriously considering one, as we enjoy the Cab too much and a Turbo Cab is likely another year away.

    "Also, I understand the ED cars don't count against dealer inventory. Does that mean I have a better chence of getting a discounted price if I go that route?"

    Sure you aren't confusing Porsche and BMW/Mercedes? As far as I know, the Factory delivery option for Porsche still comes out of a dealer's allocation, and, in any event, ADDS a couple thousand $ to the price. There is no discount.

    Supposedly Porsche is scaling back production somewhat on the Turbo, in anticipation of a further softening of the US economy. I think the only chance you could get a discount is to find a dealer that happens to have an unsold car in stock or incoming. You'll be stuck with the color and options, but you may get a nominal discount. But, at least in my area, ordering it to your specs will likely take a few months and cost you MSRP. Which, by the way, is still a good deal compared to the former 996 Turbo S w/ X51.
  • w210w210 Posts: 188
    Picked one up last week, lots of fun compared to the E55 I used to drive. Highly recommended.
  • Habitat1, you have a good handle on all things Porsche, including pricing/allocations/discounts, etc.

    When I look at the Porsche US distribution model as a business person, I love it. Take a look with me at how I see how Porsche has it set up. Its amazing.

    First, Porsche is over-dealered with many more dealers than they really need. The Boston market, hardly Porsche country, has I think 5-6 dealers. Porsche controls distribution by rationing cars with an allocation system. A dealer's allocation is a function of previous sales. In other words, the big get bigger (i.e., Champion). The dealers all have to show their current model year inventory on the Porsche factory web site so all potential customers can view it. Again the guys with the allocations get the cars and then get to exhibit their inventory nationally at Porsche's expense. The guys who have the biggest allocations have the best selection and they have a leg up on their competition. Because every one knows what everyone else is holding in inventory, there is little incentive to buy a car locally. If you do want to buy a car from dear ol' Joe, he must have an open allocation. No allocation (and they are specific even down to C2Cab vs. C4Cab), no deal. As a result of all this, there is no real territoriality and the Porsche market is really a national one.

    Now I realize that not every buyer takes advantage of the Porsche web site, checks inventories, and calls around. But lots do and this must be increasing. The Economist would call this "disintermediation". Sal, my barber, would call it doing away with the middle man.

    Porsche took steps to rationalize this about 10 years ago and wanted the dealers to not stock new cars but just do deliveries, service, etc. The factory was going to operate as I recall out of NV and have regional factory showrooms (I could be wrong on this). Naturally the dealers complained to their state legislators and won.

    Porsche should be grateful. The way the system is set up now, the dealers have to buy and pay to floor plan the cars, not Porsche. But Porsche controls the distribution and has made it transparent, diminishing the dealer's margin.

    Comments?
  • Thanks to you both, Habitat1 and Blckislandguy. Where I live, we're lucky to get any vehicle for MSRP, they're usually priced over. I called my local dealer, and they said they sell at MSRP with no additional dealer mark-up. Probably this is because of the nationally available inventory. Now the problem is there are no Tip Turbos in any of the inventories, at least not that I've seen, so even getting one is an issue. My local dealer seems to have no idea when one will come in. I was going to go for the ED, but it seems there won't be one available there either for several months. I guess it's a waiting game now.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I'm not sure how Porsche's distribution system differs from the other manufacturers cuch as BMW, Mercedes and Acura. but on a couple of your points:

    "The guys who have the biggest allocations have the best selection and they have a leg up on their competition."

    Not necessarily. Personally, I'm inclined to (and did) purchase from a relatively smaller dealership outside of Baltimore rather than one of the much larger dealerships in the immediate DC area. Yes, price and availability of the car I wanted were major factors, but I also value personal service. I dealt directly with the sales manager and service manager.

    "..there is no real territoriality and the Porsche market is really a national one."

    I bought our two Acuras from my hometown dealership, 375 miles away. But I did not buy a 911 from a Porsche dealership 250 miles away because, for that purchase, I wanted the option to go back to the selling dealership for service or warranty work. The fact that Porsche dealerships list their inventory on a Porsche website is helpful, but not doing so didn't keep my Acura business in DC.

    "Sal, my barber, would call it doing away with the middle man."

    And that's not a good thing?? Sorry, but like I said, I prefer to deal directly with a sales manager or GM. With all of the information available to me, I don't need a salesperson to teach me about a car or get in the way of a deal. Again, no difference between my Porsche and Acura purchases.

    "...diminishing the dealer's margin".

    Porsche dealer's margins are the best in the automotive industry, short of exotics like Ferrari. I got a spectacular deal on my 911 at $10k off. Which was still $2k+ over invoice. I am willing to bet that 80% of 911's are sold with less than a $5k discount, which would be $5-7k over invoice. Ask a Porsche dealer if he'd rather be selling Fords at $2k under invoice.

    Again, I'm not sure what is different about Porsche than other dealers, other than they make more money.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "Thanks to you both, Habitat1 and Blckislandguy."

    You're welcome - and thanks for giving me the opportunity to snag post 911 from Blckislandguy. :)
  • It's looking like there are turbo 911s coming in this fall, but the ones not spoken for already are selling at $160K plus, a full $30K above MSRP. My local dealer never called me back, so I suppose the saleman was talking out of turn. Looks like geting one at MSRP is out of the question and, as much as I want one, I just can't see paying $160K (plus tax!) for it. Guess I'll go back to trying to find a 2005.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Just where the heck do you live? I am sure you can get a Turbo in the DC area for MSRP before the end of the year. Shipping to the west coast would run about $2,000, but I'd be willing to bet my dealer would split that cost with you.

    If you are serious, let me know.

    P.S. And don't start looking for a 2005 996 turbo. They are fine cars, but at that price, I think you would be better off with a 2007 997 Carrera S. My friend who traded his 996 Turbo for a Carrera S couple a few months ago would agree.
  • Habitat,
    My local dealer did finally call back. Seems they were waiting for the allocation info to come in. The big sticking point is I want a Tip, and they seem to be in short supply. Pacific in FLA has a Oct build coming in and they want $160K. My local dealer offered me MSRP, Dec build, Feb (or so) delivery. (I am out west.) I was considering ED (and still am) so I can actually DRIVE the car, but my trip to Europe is already set for November. If your dealer can get me a Tip at MSRP to meet my schedule, then, yeah, I'm interested.
  • slickoko:

    I would not get your hopes up that you will find an unsold Turbo in time for you to pick up in November at the factory. Mine, which I ordered in July, is now looking like it will come in in mid October instead of mid september as originally planned. As someone pointed out, Porsche is cutting back production in anticipation of a US recession.

    Something else you might want to reconsider is the Tiptronic. Porsche seems to be heavily promoting it as "faster than the manual". I think they are trying to make up for the fact that they have been delayed in the final engineering and introduction of their DSG unit, which should be available in the 2008's if not sooner. The Tiptronic is an AUTOMATIC with a torque converter. It's only quicker than the manual if you hold the brake before "launching" it. It's shift points in automatic mode are set too low. Upshifts are quick, downshifts are not. After driving one myself, it is NOT a transmission I could ever be happy with or recommend to ANY enthusiast with a left leg. I suspect that the Tiptronic will become an unwanted stepchild once the DSG becomes available - and will very likely take a big hit on resale.

    Part of me wants to encourage guys like you paying $160k to be able to get a Turbo sooner rather than later. Certainly helps my resale, since I got mine at a slight discount (total of $128k, including options). But I do think patience would be a virtue in this case. If you are dead set against a 6-speed for some reason, put yourself at the top of the list to get an DSG at MSRP. Or, if not, shop around for a 6-speed and you may find better availability. But don't fall for Porsche's marketing of the Tip. In three years, it will be viewed as a hiccup. Mark my word on that one.
  • Can you explain what the DSG unit is?
    Thanks
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Not to interject, but I looked into DSG (direct shift gearbox) a bit, and found a decent explanation at: Wikopedia.

    A friend of mine who is a serious Porsche enthusaist (visits the factory annually) has echoed what spiritinthesky said. Namely, that Porsche DSG will be far superior to the automatic torque converter equiped Tiptronic, in terms of all around performance, shift speed and control. The dual clutch system further distinguishes DSG from SMG (sequential manual gearbox) units which, I believe just use a single clutch and therefore do not have as fast shifts.

    I also heard rumors that Porsches DSG might cost $5,000-$7,000 (twice the Tip cost), but compared to the inferior $10k+ Ferrari F1 SMG unit, that is still a bargain.

    Me, I'll probably go to the grave with a clutch pedal in my coffin and stick shift in my hand. :)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Me, I'll probably go to the grave with a clutch pedal in my coffin and stick shift in my hand.

    Amen. I will never get a DSG in a sports car. There's no "probably" about it. It will be interesting to see how many Porsches are sold with DSG since Porsche is unequivocally the stronghold for the manual transmission. I can't wait to get this over with.
  • Hello all, Im exploding with anticipation for the delivery of my new 997. I was going to custom spec a 2007, but got a great deal on an in stock 2006 vehicle, a 911 S Cab in Arctic Silver with black top. The only dissapointment was that it was not a 4 as well, but Im not going to try to use this in a snow storm due to ground clearance issues. I wonder if there are any drivers who can convey how well this will handle highway speeds in the rain? This concerns me, but in actuallity, I wouldn't push either the 4 or the non 4 in such conditions. I'm just wondering if she will be stable at 55 mph should we get caught in a storm, any and all oppinions are appreciated. This is really my dream car, but I never really felt much love for the 996's build quality, interior comfort, or overall look so Im glad I waited. I opted for a Mercedes G 500, which was great, but after driving that army tank for the past 3 years, this will be a welcome change! Thanks in advance for any and all oppinions on the non 4 handling of inclement weather.

    Here are the options
    Bose
    sport chrono
    Full black leather
    extended Nav
    Power seat package
    Heated seats
    S package
    Colored wheel caps
    Black Mats wilth logo
    Tire pressure monitor
    CD Changer
    Tiptronic ( I live in Manhattan, will be a daily driver)
  • mtv65mtv65 Posts: 45
    Hi All,

    I have been testdriving 911s for most of the summer and definitely have been bitten. I've had BMWs for the last 12 years or so and am ready to get on the 911 bandwagon for the next 12 years =).

    My question for you guys is which model(MY2002 plus) to get. I've got about $60k to play with so the Turbo may be out of reach. I'm currently in CO for a job and will be heading back to CA next summer so the C4S may be the way to go...it's got plenty of power with the added bonus of awd plus the sound of that exhaust(intoxicating). I've found a few with less than 20k miles within my price range here in CO. One more concern is the maintenance cost. I've done basic routine maint on my BMWs(i.e. oil, plugs, brakes) and was wondering how difficult it would be to do on the 911s. Also, any recall items that I should be concerned about (RMS leaks and so on).

    Thanks in advance for your advice/recommendations!!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Jeff,

    I've had my 911S (2005 MY, 9,100 miles) in the rain a few times and it is fine at highway speeds up to 65-75+ mph. Much more stable and none of the skittishness of my former S2000. I think you should be fine as long as you don't try testing it's 0-60 or 1/4 mile capabilities in a downpour.

    Sounds like you have a very nicely equiped car. What is the "S package" option? Care to share what kind of deal you got?
  • The wikopedia link from habitat does a decent job of explaining DSG. You can also check out Audi's website. The big difference between SMG's and DSG's from "semi"-automatics like the Tiptronic, BMW's Steptronic and Mercedes Manu-matics is that the SMG's/DSG's are a hybrid manual transmission with an electonically operated clutch and shifter. There is no power sapping, numb feeling, uncontollable torque converter that the automatics have. For someone used to driving an automatic, they think manually shifting a Tiptronic is just fine. For most manual transmission enthusiasts, it's a gimmick and you'd be better off leaving it in automatic mode all the time.

    From what I understand, the Porsche DSG will be a further technological advancement of the type of unit Audi uses in their R series. I am NOT a fan of the 7-speed SMG found in the new M5 (I have a 2003 M5 6-speed). But even I am interested in what Porsche can do with a double clutch DSG in the 911. It is unfortunate that, for whatever reason, this advanced transmission was not available in time for the launch of the 2007 Turbo. But, as I said, it will make the Tiptronic instantly obsolete.
  • S Package, you know, larger engine, xenons pasm aluminum dash trim red calipers 19" wheels etc... and I got 12 off the 108 sticker...not bad huh!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    O.K., thought the "S package" was might have been something other than simply the S model.

    Excellent deal. I was surprised by the $108 sticker, but forgot the price went up $2,400 for 2006 and you have Tip.

    Break-in: I assume you have either seen one of my dozen or so previous posts or were told by your dealer not to drive the car for short distances during the first 1,500 +/- miles? Not in the owner's manual, but common knowledge/advice amoung the experts.
  • what exactly qualifies as a short distance,and I assume not to go over 65 mph as well?
  • chile96chile96 Posts: 330
    short distance means not giving enough time to allow the engine to reach operating temp (around 180 deg)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    My dealer recommended to not drive the car less than 15-20 minutes at a time, allowing the engine oil temperature (not water temperature) to fully warm up (180-220 degrees) before turning the engine off. This allows for all of the rubber gaskets, seals and other engine parts to fully expand and contract during break in. This goes a long way, if not all the way, in preventing the "rear main seal leak" down the road.

    I wouldn't worry about exceeding 65 mph. Excessivly hard acceleration should be avoided and keep the rpms below 4,200 and vary engine speed. But in mine you could cruise along at 75-80 in 6th gear and be well within the rpm limit. I assume the same is true in 5th with the Tip. Just don't use cruise control for a long trip and vary between 55 and 75.
  • thanks for the advice

    Jeff
  • Habitat1, your comment "I'll probably go to the grave with a clutch pedal in my coffin and a stick shift in my hand" just begs to be made into a country song. I love it. Kind of like, "if God wanted you to use a slush box, he wouldn't have made you with a left foot".
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