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All Things Porsche

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  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    "....I'm looking forward to reading the inevitable comparisons in Car magazine. Also will judge for myself. :o)) "

     

    Now that sounds like fun! And I certainly agree that there will be significant differences in the driving dynamics between the 987 and 997, no matter what the configuration. Of course we're not even talking about power differences, or even weight differences ... you still can't get around the fact that one is mid-engine and the other is rear engine. My guess however is that those differences in dynamics won't be dramatically different from the differences you see/feel now.

     

    I'll bet you're right on pricing, too ... but just to get false hopes going, let's try this logic -- the 997 cabrio costs $10000 more than the 997 coupe ($69300 vs. $79100) ... or about 12.6% less .... would that mean that a Boxster S really "should" sell at, say, 88% of the $53100 tag for an "S", or about $46700?

     

    I think this proves ... it's Friday.

     

    Enjoying my fantasies. JW
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    As I considered your thoughts on the dry sump and RMS, one thing keeps coming to mind. 987 and 997 are said to be "interim" models. As you may know, Enzo Ferrari once said something like "You pay for my engine, the rest of the car is free." The current engines are the same as the previous ones albeit tweaked. It costs a ton of money to develop completely new engines. Could it be that the next generation, which may come as early as 07, will have the newly developed engines sans RMS concerns and with a return to the dry sump? Corvette has it. Not sure if it is both C06 and Z06 or just the latter.

     

    Now, is it our birthright to have a car that doubles as ultimate street and track car? Or is this just a case of Porsches always seeming be out of our financial reach? Maybe the GT3 is the Porsche you knew 10 years ago? Wow, that's expensive! Weren't they always?

     

    I think Porsche did a pretty good job of putting their genes into a car that is available to mere mortals like myself. That said, I can appreciate your lament. If I tracked my car, I would not want the specter of a blown engine due to oil starvation looming in my head. But maybe the hardcore purists will have to start seeing the 911 Carrera as the mid-level Porsche.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Hey, designman, good to hear from you!

     

    And thanks for the thoughtful reply and disagreement.

     

    Sure, I'm one of those who are hopeful that the next gen 911/Boxster designs eliminate the RMS boondoggle ... there's no reason that can't be engineered out, afaik, and (as I've argued) should have been corrected in this iteration. As a purchaser, development costs aren't really of interest.

     

    I am much more doubtful about seeing a return to a dry sump ... just a matter of cost, I believe, but much smarter engineer types than I have also argued that the wet version is actually preferable in a water-cooled. Couldn't prove it by me, I'm afraid. The focus of my argument was on the insistence on cost-cutting and then the marketing dept.'s pervarication in trying to find a way to describe the system according to its traditional design .... seems dishonest to me still.

     

    Just an fyi: my car listed for $53,900 in '93 ... certainly, given inflation, that reflects a similar current cost to a 997, at least I'm guessing. What is now the GT-3 or GT-3RS would be equivalent to the RS models of the past. The only car that is equivalent to what I'm driving now is the current Carrera 2 .... which has the problems I'm complaining about.

     

    But I think your argument still has validity. I'm not sure I'm a hardcore purist, but just as we currently have the Boxster and the std. C-2, C-4 at one end of the pecking order, so in the past we had such cars as the 914, the 928, 944, 968, etc., all of which were described as "not real" Porsches by the 'purist' types. They are quite good cars, very fast, but some were water cooled, some had 4 cyl. engines, some were very small 'scooters' but all were good cars and quite fast. Just like we have now.

     

    So your argument, I think, is valid even if we want to quibble over whether one of the cars is a valid analogy for another.

     

    But the days of the 911, and its engine, being the ultimate at Porsche are truly over. Now the operation is more like US automakers have been, producing one car for the track, then providing a cosmetic package for a watered down version to be marketed to the great unwashed (that's us). So Porsche will continue to put out great cars, with even more extravagant prices than (I think) are required, but will market watered down packages that have similar names and cosmetics as the track cars, but cost less and certainly can't be used the same way. Very un-Porsche.

     

    But a moot point for almost everyone else, I'll bet.

     

    Thanks again. JW
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,362
    Hi shifty:

     

    the guy just drove it over the Bay Bridge tonight (Sunday)....kinda dark to see it...

     

    I drove it...the clutch kinda engages and releases high....lots of play in the first few inches....

     

    it did say 1993 GTS....but no cold air...and airbag light was on . Needed new tires too...the Bridgestones were worn...but the guy said he just got alignment....so just need tires... upholstery looks OK...but the vents in the rear had some missing vanes....no cracks on dash...but some stone chips on hood, front end, and some minor chips on windshield. It had 101,000 miles. KInda high...and I don't think he changed all the timing belts , hoses, etc....

     

    I think the repairs and miscellaneous items

    AC, paint fix, vents, tires, hoses, belts, etc...will run over $5000...

     

    so I am going to think about it ,....and may offfer a lower price to compensate for the condition ...

     

    thanks for your advice....

     

    I liked the chrome wheels....and the bypass exhaust....may consider bringing it to DEVEK to have all checked out...but Susan there said it will cost about $200 for the check...

     

    the car does feel a little heavy with the manual transmission.....kinda hoped it would be auto...?!

     

    I'll make a decision this week... :-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,634
    You could also check with Hi-Tec Automotive in San Rafael. Very well schooled shop in 928s. # is 415 258 9619, talk to Deven. Would be cheaper than Devek.

     

    If they aligned the car with bad tires, they'll just have to do the alignment over again. Not many shops know how to align 928s, they are very tricky to get right. A good shop is Dependable Tire and Brake, also in San Rafael. They know that you align, drive the car, let it settle and re-align it. If you don't do that, your 928 will never be right.

     

    GTS is a very desirable car, and worth more than an S4. REALLY fast, too, even by 2005 standards. Not much more than a Corvette or Viper to challenge you out there.

     

    MODERATOR

  • I've heard that the '964' edition of the 911 is undesirable compared to the '993'. Market pricing seems to bear that out, because low mileage 993's seem to be in the mid-$40Ks and up. But, I have a chance to buy a very mint '93 911/964 cabriolet C2 (5spd, 18,000 original miles) and - to be blunt - I think it's a gorgeous car, kind of the perfect blend of the old design with the first decent interior. Subjective, I know, but somehow it works for me.

     

    I'm going to check it out this week, and will get a PPI at the local Porsche dealer before closing the deal.

     

    Questions for this group:

     

    Did Porsche get the flywheel and oil leak issues sorted out by the 1993 model year?

     

    Ditto for the self-destructing distributor belts?

     

    Are there other black marks against the 964 I should know about?

     

    Looking for some guidance here. The car's not cheap, and I don't want to buy "the bad one" just 'cause it looks nearly perfect. I'm looking to use it as a weekend car, not a daily driver, here in San Diego.

     

    Thanks all!
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    You hit me right where it hurts! I own a '93 -- now as to which car is better, you'll find as many different opinions as you will owners. The big charm of the 993 -- everyone will admit -- is cosmetics and horsepower; lots of folk prefer the slanted-back headlights of the 993, and of course it has 20-40 more horsepower, depending on the year. Obviously, I agree with your assessment on looks.

     

    1) Flywheel and leaking seal were fixed by redesign for '92. That said, many (most?) Porsches have oil leaks -- the factory manual for the air-cooleds will suggest you should be able to lose a quart/liter every 1000 mi. or so and still be within norms. (Mine loses 1/3 qt. every 1500 miles.)But with over 14 quarts to work with, none of that is catastrophic.

     

    2) The distributor vent kit likewise was added for '92. If it isn't on the car for some stupid reason, you can do it yourself for under $10. Changing out the belt so that you have a fresh one there is a good idea in a car that is over 10 years old, however, and that will be more expensive.

     

    3) No other specific 964 problems. But all the air-cooleds need to be within precise valve adjustment specs so if it hasn't been tuned recently, I'd budget for that. About the time you get it up to 70-100k for mileage you will have to look at replacing valve guides, etc.

     

    You don't say anything about paper. A car with 18000 miles should have every speck of paper with it. MIssing paper and/or maintenance records are worth a hefty deduction from value in most people's book.

     

    You do mention going to the Porsche dealer for a PPI. The PPI is essential, of course, and I'm glad you're planning to do that ... but I urge you to not take it to a dealer. Dealer mechanics haven't had to work on air cooled machinery since 1999 and very many of them are clueless about diagnostic work. Instead, seek out a good independent Porsche mechanic (check with the local PCA members .... easily found on the national website) and let him tell you what you really have ... even if all the paper is there.

     

    Though you don't mention options, etc., Bruce Anderson lists the present retail value of a 93 C2 Cab in Excellent condition (i.e., top notch, all paper, no mechanical work needed, etc.) at $36588. The extremely low mileage would allow for an additional 10%.

     

    Let me offer a personal opinion. I'd be hesitant to buy a car with such low mileage. If it has been well-maintained, the problems with it should not be discouraging. But the depreciation would drive me nuts -- I mean at that low mileage you are probably paying a premium of around $5000 for the car. Unless it is going to be a garage queen, every time you drive it you're going to be flushing a lot more money than you need to. When I searched for mine two years ago, that was why I looked for a car with about 30000 miles. Now, I would be looking in the 40000 range.

     

    Hope this helps. Be sure to keep us posted -- it'd be nice to have another air-cooled fan on site!

     

    Best wishes, JW
  • Thanks for this - sounds like '93 is the best of the 964s. Yeah, the engine sounds like an actual engine, and the wind tunnel hadn't eroded what was left of the original concept. I was never a fan of the earlier 'accordion'-style bumpers, either, so the 964's always looked nicely sculpted to me.

     

    Good points about the paperwork and PPI. Yes, I had thought to get it done at a local dealer, because the car is out of town. The seller didn't mention that all the paperwork was available but, if the original owner was that obsessive about it, you would think it would be.

     

    The mileage is kind of low. But it is documented. Question is whether the car sat for years at time without being run. That's usually bad news for seals and rubber parts.

     

    Price: He's asking $44K, which is - um - optimistic. I can get a 2001 996 cabrio in the mid $40K's with low mileage -- not the same kind of car, but 8 years newer. If he's willing to drop down a bit, I could see it. I called about the car 2 weeks ago. It's near Denver, and frankly February isn't convertible season.

     

    I'm OK with the distributor belt replacement, etc. If I didn't want to take care of the car I'd be over on the Lexus forum ;-) But I'll find out about the distributor kit. Unless I see paperwork for a valve adjustment, I'll assume it needs one.

     

    I think all 911's leak, maybe the one thing the Germans learned from the British auto industry. I remember asking a mechanic about the chronic dripping from my ex-'76 MGB and he said sometimes they leaked in the showroom.

     

    Anyway jwilson, thanks the advice!
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I really wasn't disagreeing with you. Perhaps I have a different tolerance level as I am not into the track scene—yet. As this is my first Porsche, and having loved them for a real long time, I guess I am foraging for reasons to remain optimistic while enjoying what I have now. However, I will consider disagreeing with you more in the future… hey, I got another great missive out of you didn't I?

     

    Have you been following the story of the guy who went to lemon arbitration against Porsche and to his surprise found out that they had a complete record of his track activities? Also, Porsche can apparently document the way a car is driven—missed downshifts, rev patterns etc—by way of on-board computers. Talk about torqueing off the track rats. This is getting interesting.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    And for my part I sure don't intend to discourage anyone! I still believe that, if you want a sports car, Porsche is the best there is ... any model, any year. Yeah, I'm over the top with the comment, but isn't that why we buy, and dote on, the marque we chase?

     

    The guy with the arbitration issues is brand new to me! Link? I'm curious about it, because I know they've also been willing to replace engines and those $12k PCCB brakes for people with much track use. Otoh, I've heard that the computers do that sort of record-keeping, too.

     

    OT: a friend of mine who is big on his Ferraris tells me that Ferrari's computers track usage also, but in their case the original owner (of, say, the Enzo) has had to sign a statement promising to drive the car the way it was "intended." He said Ferrari has indicated they have the right to take a car back if it is not driven hard enough! Don't know if that's ever been done, but I love the attitude.

     

    JW
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,362
    thanks shifty...

     

    I'lll give them a call...and make an offer on the GTS. San Rafael is only across the Richmond bridge from me...probable closer than Redwood City from where I am.

     

    I heard that the alignment was tricky and the tires had to settle in....

     

    I'll keep you up to date...thanks

     

    :-)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    For the arbitration thread I mentioned, look for my post in the "What else do you drive" thread in which you recently posted. Posting the link here is against the rules and I'm not sure if we're allowed to mention the site. Would like to hear your response. Thanks.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,634
    I seriously doubt Ferrari would give anyone their money back willingly, but it's a nice story.

     

    If your car is a GTS and it's in good shape, you could be getting a good deal. A GTS sells for considerably more than an S4.

     

    Hi-Tec is a great shop for 911s and 928s. You couldn't be in better hands.

    MODERATOR

  • Re: C7S (Porsche Boxster Coupe)

     

    There's finally some decent rumor material making its way onto the internet. First of all, the artists' renditions of the coupe make it look stunning...reminds my vaguely of the new Ferrari 612 GT, but with a shorter wheelbase. What gets me about this car the most, really, is that it almost seems to muscle the 997 right out of the lineup....

     

    First of all, rumor says the C7S is beating the 997 in lap times, although it will be priced about GBP 8,000 less than the 997. It would have a 300 hp engine, putting it squarely between the 987 S and the 997 in terms of HP, plus a low center of gravity and the mid engine. Brakes might be standard ceramic, wheels may be 19" standard. It would be pitched as a pure driver's car, whereas the 997 and 987 would be more GT-oriented. A lower-priced version with a lesser engine may follow. With a fixed roof, though, the car would be a good GT car, as well.

     

    So why would someone buy a 997 over the coupe? Definately not performance. 19" wheels may make for a punishing ride. That's about all I can say in favor of a 997, according to this information. Backseat? How many people really care? Maybe the coupe will be more cramped and have a stiffer ride, or have less insulation. If the 997 does not have a noticable edge in terms of comfort and refinement (i.e., more GT-oriented), then the 997 is going to whither on the vine. It's almost as if Porsche is pushing the 997 out, slowly....

     

    Any other thoughts?
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    "It's almost as if Porsche is pushing the 997 out, slowly...."

     

    What an interesting concept! Boy, would that move ever make the you-know-what hit the rotating air-movement blades!

     

    Your suggestion is, then, that the "C7S" would replace the 911 as we know it, and the "new" 911 would be limited to the GT3, the Turbo, GT2, etc.?

     

    This assumes they're willing to kill of the cash cow they've got. Seems to me they're too profit-oriented for that move, but if the Boxster becomes popular enough .......... who knows?

     

    JW
  • "Your suggestion is, then, that the "C7S" would replace the 911 as we know it, and the "new" 911 would be limited to the GT3, the Turbo, GT2, etc.?"

     

    That's exactly what I'm suggesting. The 911 goes upmarket back to the track-ready platforms and the mid-engine C7S moves up a notch with bigger engines, etc. I wonder whether a 997 engine would fit into the C7S platform? But as you say, the 911 is such a cash cow, we'd have to see 997 sales crash in favor of the C7S before this would come to pass....maybe they do it in the NEXT generation of models.

     

    ...but it still begs the question: why buy the 997 if the C7S can out-track it, has a longer wheelbase and great styling? Only if the 997 is suitably more refined would the price be justified, no?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,057
    As long as Porsche still calls it the "911", it will sell... Regardless of whatever else they sell that might perform better, etc... I don't think it will happen the way you describe, IMHO..

     

    regards,

    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • balapbalap Posts: 12
    hi
    I have a quote from the Porsche dealership in Seattle, WA. A 2005 Boxster (Basalt black Metallic color), heated front seats, sound package plus, windstop deflector, automatic climate control, 18" boxster S Wheel, The MSRP was 48930 (incl destination charge). It is the showroom car used for test drives et al and has about 200 miles on it. The deal on lease we were quoted was as follows for 12k/yr for 36 months :

    Sale price - $47000
    Downpayment - $1413(incl first instalment)
    Monthly $818(pre tax)
    They claim the residual would be 56%.

    Does this deal look good ? Also since it was used for test drives, is there anything I should ask them to cover like brake pads/clutch in the first year or so for free.
    Thanks
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,057
    You can borrow $47K for just $880/mo for 60 months at 4.65% (which I've seen advertised).

    At a 56% residual, that lease payment seems awfully high.. If that is the best they can do, you'd be much better off purchasing it..

    After 36 months on the purchase, you would owe $20,117.. add back the extra $2232 in payments ($880 - $818 = 62 X 36 = $2232).. And after three years your outstanding balance is $22,349.

    56% of $48,930 is $27,400, the residual value of the lease.

    In effect, the lease cost is $5050 more than financing.. So, either the lease program is really crappy, or the dealer is trying to screw you somewhere.. I think it may be a combination of both...

    A decent lease payment, with current interest rates, shouldn't be more than $15 per thousand of MSRP...and that is including tax.. ($15 X 48.930 = $734 including tax)

    Anything over that, and you are definitely better off purchasing... or shopping at a different dealer..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • balapbalap Posts: 12
    Thanks a lot for your feedback kyfdx. appreciate your inputs.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Hey, next time I shop, will you come along? Wow.

    JW
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,057
    Sure.. as long as I get to drive the Porsche on weekends!!

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • Hot off the press...Porsche's web site has a video for the upcoming Boxster Coupe. They're not showing the product yet but the video's slick.

    It's going to be positioned between the Boxster S and 997, 295 hp, as jwilson1 and I were saying. I do think this will hurt 997 sales. If the car looks as great as Porsche is hinting in its press releases, many who are not necessarily 911 purists will be hard-pressed to justify the extra $$$ for the 997. (Like me...) However, someone who goes for a Cayman S who was previously considering a 997 may feel "rich" and pile on more custom options, so it may be more profitable for Porsche than the 997.

    designman...what would you say about spending an extra $3k for Dark Olive Metallic instead of taking the free Black?
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Did you see the article and pic in Inline? You were right about price, too, speeds2much.

    I'm glad it's a little bigger than the Boxster as I had trouble finding a comfortable position in the 986.

    JW
  • Yep, sometimes I get lucky. :o)

    Missed the Inline article, but I did check out GermanCarFans and a few UK sites. The car looks fantastic and I like the concept behind the name (fast reptilian predator), but it's too bad some people are already bashing the name because it can be, how to say this, twisted around. ...Of course, the 997 has an "overweight" rap of its own. I always say buy what you like, period.
  • indyeindye Posts: 2
    hello all.
    Being that Porsche has launched their teaser campaign to stall out buyers and turn their heads "this way", has anyone read anything as deliveriy of the C7S to dealerships?
    I am one who, (as someone wrote), is not a 911 purist, but WAS a week from buying a 997. And this comes along. Crap. Almost feel that I have to now wait and see this Cayman. From what I've seen It's beautiful.
    -indye
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    You have good taste. Love the dark olive. Works with black and all of the earth-tone interiors. You probably know this but look at the cylindrical samples at the dealer in sunlight. The small swatches in the brochure can be misleading and the olive in the catalog looks almost black. I could see myself with an olive Boxster, deep tan ragtop and custom brown leather. I never cared for monochromatic matches.

    Is it worth the extra dough? Your call. I assume you are leasing because I can practically guarantee that color will not be popular. I’ve come to the conclusion that most people are chicken when it comes to color and they run from anything with green in it. Except money of course ;-)

    There was time when Porsche made a color called Granite Green, a very sophisticated color IMO. Calling it green was quite stretch. If memory serves me correctly it was actually a medium gray metallic with an ever-so-subtle hint of olive. Would have bought it in a fingersnap. However to this day I have yet to see one on the road. Not sure if they even sold one.
  • You got right to the heart of my question. In the Porsche brochure, the olive green looks practically black. Then I'd also worry more about paint matching after any unfortunate event.

    Wow, olive Boxster with deep tan ragtop and custom brown...has a hint of British sportscar, but richer and more sophisticated. The Terracota interior with dark olive...that would be at the top of list, too, money permitting.
  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    death of the 911. Let's face it, a rear-engined-car is a bad idea. The once-wild 911 Turbo can be driven by a pimple-face 15-year-old with an automatic transmission! Notice how many racecars besides the 911 have a rear-mounted engines.

    The 2005 911 is still suffering from RMS leaks (rear main seal). This has been going on with water-cooled Porsche sports cars since the 1997 Boxster and Porsche won't fix it!

    It is bad enough that they had to sell out and make an SUV but to not fix the RMS leak?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    xkss… I agree that Cayman could be the seed of this possibility. The market is demanding increases in power. For the 911 this would seem to require bringing the engine forward. They just can't keep adding weight back there. And a 911 without a rear engine is not a 911.

    The more I think about the Cayman configuration, the more I think it is a test for the future "911". I can't see Cayman conquering new markets. I believe it may be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Cayman should get a piece of both Boxster and 911 markets, and depending on how it is received may determine the future of the 911.

    A base-Boxster Cayman would probably bring in new low-end buyers, but one that transcends the Boxster S at $60+K could only sell to existing enthusiasts IMO, especially since drop-tops account for the majority of their non-SUV sales. I have to believe Porsche knows this and is calculating its moves accordingly. I don't think for one minute that Cayman is a market-expansion vehicle. However, corporate spin will probably suggest otherwise.

    The death of the 911 sounds like heresy but somewhere down the road a 400+ hp mid-engine 911-priced Porsche would not be such a shabby proposition. Indeed, the eye of the tiger may be focused on a certain crocodile.

    "Let's face it, a rear-engined-car is a bad idea."

    Well, riding bulls in a rodeo is a bad idea too ;-)

    "The 2005 911 is still suffering from RMS leaks (rear main seal). This has been going on with water-cooled Porsche sports cars since the 1997 Boxster and Porsche won't fix it!"

    Not all RMS Porsches have the RMS problem. As a matter of fact, 911s and Boxsters have done quite well with reliability. I try to stay optimistic. There aren't many alternatives to a Porsche. You have to play with the cards you are dealt.

    "You have been reading about the bad break I got.
    Yet today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."


    I wonder what that was about. Did Lou Gehrig hit the RMS lotto or something?

    ;-)
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