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LOL....
Request 2 things :
1. Any insights on if the price is ballpark right or listed at the right price. Edmunds TMV ranges from 42k - 47k (without CPO). Good deal or not ?
2.Also any insights on things i need to watch out for the Boxster S specifically the 03 model.
Appreciate your inputs, thanks in advance.
What color combo is it?
regards,
kyfdx
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Price: if they['re asking 48k, you should be able to get 45k, I'd think, without blinking. The big factor is the arrival of the new Boxster which makes this one not only 3 model years old but, more importantly, perceived as "the old" model. Have you thought of offering 40k? I'd try to get it between 40-42, especially (depending on where you live) you're a good month ahead of the spring-roadster-buying sales traffic.
Once the new car hits the floors in another month or two, values on the 03 will drop like a rock, remember .... no reason you can't wait if you need to, is there?
JW
JW, I am in Seattle,WA. You bring up a good point, i had thought that the 03 and 04 boxsters were the same and the 05 was upgraded - is that correct ? And when you are saying 03 is 3 model years old notionally are you refering to the just calendar year and not so much the model itself ? Good perspective,you have made me think on the pricing very differently now.
Thanks
Good luck. JW
The engine and options have been upgraded a few times since the '97 model year.. I think the engine at least twice, if not three times.. and then glass rear window in '01.. and a bunch of other little things...
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jwilson1 - 997 vs. 987 is an interesting question, alright, with the coming coupe. I'm not sure when the coupe will be introduced...some sources say Fall '05 and others say Spring '06. I don't think I can wait until next Spring unless I buy a beater to get me through winter. Not such a bad idea, maybe, but then I have to insure it, too. I think Porsche is going to price the coupe higher than the convertible, so the spread between an S Coupe and a base 997 will be about $10k. So someone who really wants the 997 will step up a notch, so to speak. Would the S Coupe be a better drive, though? More balanced, smoother to drive? Tighter dimensions? That could be the case....I'm looking forward to reading the inevitable comparisons in Car magazine. Also will judge for myself. ))
there is one posted at Devek that has 101,000 miles, but the AC compressor needs to be replaced....any idea how much one will cost ? it is a 1993 model...5 speed. also, he says the airbag lights and some miscellaneous lights sometimes comes on...seems to be like a usual thing for 928s.....I read on one site that it may be the connections...which tend to work loose and warning lights come and go due to this bad connection....any thoughts on this ? He is asking low $20,000...but I don't want to get caught with a lot of repairs....
otherwise OK car...
Hmmm...if the car is really nice (#2 condition) his price is okay if we presume the AC and airbag light would cost $2,000 to repair both those items.
So you'd be in $22K, which is about low book retail for a #2 car. If there is body damage or bad upholstery, etc. you can start deducting further.
Personally I don't think you should buy it until the electrical glitches are worked out.
Now that sounds like fun! And I certainly agree that there will be significant differences in the driving dynamics between the 987 and 997, no matter what the configuration. Of course we're not even talking about power differences, or even weight differences ... you still can't get around the fact that one is mid-engine and the other is rear engine. My guess however is that those differences in dynamics won't be dramatically different from the differences you see/feel now.
I'll bet you're right on pricing, too ... but just to get false hopes going, let's try this logic -- the 997 cabrio costs $10000 more than the 997 coupe ($69300 vs. $79100) ... or about 12.6% less .... would that mean that a Boxster S really "should" sell at, say, 88% of the $53100 tag for an "S", or about $46700?
I think this proves ... it's Friday.
Enjoying my fantasies. JW
Now, is it our birthright to have a car that doubles as ultimate street and track car? Or is this just a case of Porsches always seeming be out of our financial reach? Maybe the GT3 is the Porsche you knew 10 years ago? Wow, that's expensive! Weren't they always?
I think Porsche did a pretty good job of putting their genes into a car that is available to mere mortals like myself. That said, I can appreciate your lament. If I tracked my car, I would not want the specter of a blown engine due to oil starvation looming in my head. But maybe the hardcore purists will have to start seeing the 911 Carrera as the mid-level Porsche.
And thanks for the thoughtful reply and disagreement.
Sure, I'm one of those who are hopeful that the next gen 911/Boxster designs eliminate the RMS boondoggle ... there's no reason that can't be engineered out, afaik, and (as I've argued) should have been corrected in this iteration. As a purchaser, development costs aren't really of interest.
I am much more doubtful about seeing a return to a dry sump ... just a matter of cost, I believe, but much smarter engineer types than I have also argued that the wet version is actually preferable in a water-cooled. Couldn't prove it by me, I'm afraid. The focus of my argument was on the insistence on cost-cutting and then the marketing dept.'s pervarication in trying to find a way to describe the system according to its traditional design .... seems dishonest to me still.
Just an fyi: my car listed for $53,900 in '93 ... certainly, given inflation, that reflects a similar current cost to a 997, at least I'm guessing. What is now the GT-3 or GT-3RS would be equivalent to the RS models of the past. The only car that is equivalent to what I'm driving now is the current Carrera 2 .... which has the problems I'm complaining about.
But I think your argument still has validity. I'm not sure I'm a hardcore purist, but just as we currently have the Boxster and the std. C-2, C-4 at one end of the pecking order, so in the past we had such cars as the 914, the 928, 944, 968, etc., all of which were described as "not real" Porsches by the 'purist' types. They are quite good cars, very fast, but some were water cooled, some had 4 cyl. engines, some were very small 'scooters' but all were good cars and quite fast. Just like we have now.
So your argument, I think, is valid even if we want to quibble over whether one of the cars is a valid analogy for another.
But the days of the 911, and its engine, being the ultimate at Porsche are truly over. Now the operation is more like US automakers have been, producing one car for the track, then providing a cosmetic package for a watered down version to be marketed to the great unwashed (that's us). So Porsche will continue to put out great cars, with even more extravagant prices than (I think) are required, but will market watered down packages that have similar names and cosmetics as the track cars, but cost less and certainly can't be used the same way. Very un-Porsche.
But a moot point for almost everyone else, I'll bet.
Thanks again. JW
the guy just drove it over the Bay Bridge tonight (Sunday)....kinda dark to see it...
I drove it...the clutch kinda engages and releases high....lots of play in the first few inches....
it did say 1993 GTS....but no cold air...and airbag light was on . Needed new tires too...the Bridgestones were worn...but the guy said he just got alignment....so just need tires... upholstery looks OK...but the vents in the rear had some missing vanes....no cracks on dash...but some stone chips on hood, front end, and some minor chips on windshield. It had 101,000 miles. KInda high...and I don't think he changed all the timing belts , hoses, etc....
I think the repairs and miscellaneous items
AC, paint fix, vents, tires, hoses, belts, etc...will run over $5000...
so I am going to think about it ,....and may offfer a lower price to compensate for the condition ...
thanks for your advice....
I liked the chrome wheels....and the bypass exhaust....may consider bringing it to DEVEK to have all checked out...but Susan there said it will cost about $200 for the check...
the car does feel a little heavy with the manual transmission.....kinda hoped it would be auto...?!
I'll make a decision this week... :-)
If they aligned the car with bad tires, they'll just have to do the alignment over again. Not many shops know how to align 928s, they are very tricky to get right. A good shop is Dependable Tire and Brake, also in San Rafael. They know that you align, drive the car, let it settle and re-align it. If you don't do that, your 928 will never be right.
GTS is a very desirable car, and worth more than an S4. REALLY fast, too, even by 2005 standards. Not much more than a Corvette or Viper to challenge you out there.
I'm going to check it out this week, and will get a PPI at the local Porsche dealer before closing the deal.
Questions for this group:
Did Porsche get the flywheel and oil leak issues sorted out by the 1993 model year?
Ditto for the self-destructing distributor belts?
Are there other black marks against the 964 I should know about?
Looking for some guidance here. The car's not cheap, and I don't want to buy "the bad one" just 'cause it looks nearly perfect. I'm looking to use it as a weekend car, not a daily driver, here in San Diego.
Thanks all!
1) Flywheel and leaking seal were fixed by redesign for '92. That said, many (most?) Porsches have oil leaks -- the factory manual for the air-cooleds will suggest you should be able to lose a quart/liter every 1000 mi. or so and still be within norms. (Mine loses 1/3 qt. every 1500 miles.)But with over 14 quarts to work with, none of that is catastrophic.
2) The distributor vent kit likewise was added for '92. If it isn't on the car for some stupid reason, you can do it yourself for under $10. Changing out the belt so that you have a fresh one there is a good idea in a car that is over 10 years old, however, and that will be more expensive.
3) No other specific 964 problems. But all the air-cooleds need to be within precise valve adjustment specs so if it hasn't been tuned recently, I'd budget for that. About the time you get it up to 70-100k for mileage you will have to look at replacing valve guides, etc.
You don't say anything about paper. A car with 18000 miles should have every speck of paper with it. MIssing paper and/or maintenance records are worth a hefty deduction from value in most people's book.
You do mention going to the Porsche dealer for a PPI. The PPI is essential, of course, and I'm glad you're planning to do that ... but I urge you to not take it to a dealer. Dealer mechanics haven't had to work on air cooled machinery since 1999 and very many of them are clueless about diagnostic work. Instead, seek out a good independent Porsche mechanic (check with the local PCA members .... easily found on the national website) and let him tell you what you really have ... even if all the paper is there.
Though you don't mention options, etc., Bruce Anderson lists the present retail value of a 93 C2 Cab in Excellent condition (i.e., top notch, all paper, no mechanical work needed, etc.) at $36588. The extremely low mileage would allow for an additional 10%.
Let me offer a personal opinion. I'd be hesitant to buy a car with such low mileage. If it has been well-maintained, the problems with it should not be discouraging. But the depreciation would drive me nuts -- I mean at that low mileage you are probably paying a premium of around $5000 for the car. Unless it is going to be a garage queen, every time you drive it you're going to be flushing a lot more money than you need to. When I searched for mine two years ago, that was why I looked for a car with about 30000 miles. Now, I would be looking in the 40000 range.
Hope this helps. Be sure to keep us posted -- it'd be nice to have another air-cooled fan on site!
Best wishes, JW
Good points about the paperwork and PPI. Yes, I had thought to get it done at a local dealer, because the car is out of town. The seller didn't mention that all the paperwork was available but, if the original owner was that obsessive about it, you would think it would be.
The mileage is kind of low. But it is documented. Question is whether the car sat for years at time without being run. That's usually bad news for seals and rubber parts.
Price: He's asking $44K, which is - um - optimistic. I can get a 2001 996 cabrio in the mid $40K's with low mileage -- not the same kind of car, but 8 years newer. If he's willing to drop down a bit, I could see it. I called about the car 2 weeks ago. It's near Denver, and frankly February isn't convertible season.
I'm OK with the distributor belt replacement, etc. If I didn't want to take care of the car I'd be over on the Lexus forum ;-) But I'll find out about the distributor kit. Unless I see paperwork for a valve adjustment, I'll assume it needs one.
I think all 911's leak, maybe the one thing the Germans learned from the British auto industry. I remember asking a mechanic about the chronic dripping from my ex-'76 MGB and he said sometimes they leaked in the showroom.
Anyway jwilson, thanks the advice!
Have you been following the story of the guy who went to lemon arbitration against Porsche and to his surprise found out that they had a complete record of his track activities? Also, Porsche can apparently document the way a car is driven—missed downshifts, rev patterns etc—by way of on-board computers. Talk about torqueing off the track rats. This is getting interesting.
The guy with the arbitration issues is brand new to me! Link? I'm curious about it, because I know they've also been willing to replace engines and those $12k PCCB brakes for people with much track use. Otoh, I've heard that the computers do that sort of record-keeping, too.
OT: a friend of mine who is big on his Ferraris tells me that Ferrari's computers track usage also, but in their case the original owner (of, say, the Enzo) has had to sign a statement promising to drive the car the way it was "intended." He said Ferrari has indicated they have the right to take a car back if it is not driven hard enough! Don't know if that's ever been done, but I love the attitude.
JW
I'lll give them a call...and make an offer on the GTS. San Rafael is only across the Richmond bridge from me...probable closer than Redwood City from where I am.
I heard that the alignment was tricky and the tires had to settle in....
I'll keep you up to date...thanks
:-)
If your car is a GTS and it's in good shape, you could be getting a good deal. A GTS sells for considerably more than an S4.
Hi-Tec is a great shop for 911s and 928s. You couldn't be in better hands.
There's finally some decent rumor material making its way onto the internet. First of all, the artists' renditions of the coupe make it look stunning...reminds my vaguely of the new Ferrari 612 GT, but with a shorter wheelbase. What gets me about this car the most, really, is that it almost seems to muscle the 997 right out of the lineup....
First of all, rumor says the C7S is beating the 997 in lap times, although it will be priced about GBP 8,000 less than the 997. It would have a 300 hp engine, putting it squarely between the 987 S and the 997 in terms of HP, plus a low center of gravity and the mid engine. Brakes might be standard ceramic, wheels may be 19" standard. It would be pitched as a pure driver's car, whereas the 997 and 987 would be more GT-oriented. A lower-priced version with a lesser engine may follow. With a fixed roof, though, the car would be a good GT car, as well.
So why would someone buy a 997 over the coupe? Definately not performance. 19" wheels may make for a punishing ride. That's about all I can say in favor of a 997, according to this information. Backseat? How many people really care? Maybe the coupe will be more cramped and have a stiffer ride, or have less insulation. If the 997 does not have a noticable edge in terms of comfort and refinement (i.e., more GT-oriented), then the 997 is going to whither on the vine. It's almost as if Porsche is pushing the 997 out, slowly....
Any other thoughts?
What an interesting concept! Boy, would that move ever make the you-know-what hit the rotating air-movement blades!
Your suggestion is, then, that the "C7S" would replace the 911 as we know it, and the "new" 911 would be limited to the GT3, the Turbo, GT2, etc.?
This assumes they're willing to kill of the cash cow they've got. Seems to me they're too profit-oriented for that move, but if the Boxster becomes popular enough .......... who knows?
JW
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. The 911 goes upmarket back to the track-ready platforms and the mid-engine C7S moves up a notch with bigger engines, etc. I wonder whether a 997 engine would fit into the C7S platform? But as you say, the 911 is such a cash cow, we'd have to see 997 sales crash in favor of the C7S before this would come to pass....maybe they do it in the NEXT generation of models.
...but it still begs the question: why buy the 997 if the C7S can out-track it, has a longer wheelbase and great styling? Only if the 997 is suitably more refined would the price be justified, no?
regards,
kyfdx
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I have a quote from the Porsche dealership in Seattle, WA. A 2005 Boxster (Basalt black Metallic color), heated front seats, sound package plus, windstop deflector, automatic climate control, 18" boxster S Wheel, The MSRP was 48930 (incl destination charge). It is the showroom car used for test drives et al and has about 200 miles on it. The deal on lease we were quoted was as follows for 12k/yr for 36 months :
Sale price - $47000
Downpayment - $1413(incl first instalment)
Monthly $818(pre tax)
They claim the residual would be 56%.
Does this deal look good ? Also since it was used for test drives, is there anything I should ask them to cover like brake pads/clutch in the first year or so for free.
Thanks
At a 56% residual, that lease payment seems awfully high.. If that is the best they can do, you'd be much better off purchasing it..
After 36 months on the purchase, you would owe $20,117.. add back the extra $2232 in payments ($880 - $818 = 62 X 36 = $2232).. And after three years your outstanding balance is $22,349.
56% of $48,930 is $27,400, the residual value of the lease.
In effect, the lease cost is $5050 more than financing.. So, either the lease program is really crappy, or the dealer is trying to screw you somewhere.. I think it may be a combination of both...
A decent lease payment, with current interest rates, shouldn't be more than $15 per thousand of MSRP...and that is including tax.. ($15 X 48.930 = $734 including tax)
Anything over that, and you are definitely better off purchasing... or shopping at a different dealer..
regards,
kyfdx
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JW
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It's going to be positioned between the Boxster S and 997, 295 hp, as jwilson1 and I were saying. I do think this will hurt 997 sales. If the car looks as great as Porsche is hinting in its press releases, many who are not necessarily 911 purists will be hard-pressed to justify the extra $$$ for the 997. (Like me...) However, someone who goes for a Cayman S who was previously considering a 997 may feel "rich" and pile on more custom options, so it may be more profitable for Porsche than the 997.
designman...what would you say about spending an extra $3k for Dark Olive Metallic instead of taking the free Black?
I'm glad it's a little bigger than the Boxster as I had trouble finding a comfortable position in the 986.
JW
Missed the Inline article, but I did check out GermanCarFans and a few UK sites. The car looks fantastic and I like the concept behind the name (fast reptilian predator), but it's too bad some people are already bashing the name because it can be, how to say this, twisted around. ...Of course, the 997 has an "overweight" rap of its own. I always say buy what you like, period.
Being that Porsche has launched their teaser campaign to stall out buyers and turn their heads "this way", has anyone read anything as deliveriy of the C7S to dealerships?
I am one who, (as someone wrote), is not a 911 purist, but WAS a week from buying a 997. And this comes along. Crap. Almost feel that I have to now wait and see this Cayman. From what I've seen It's beautiful.
-indye
Is it worth the extra dough? Your call. I assume you are leasing because I can practically guarantee that color will not be popular. I’ve come to the conclusion that most people are chicken when it comes to color and they run from anything with green in it. Except money of course ;-)
There was time when Porsche made a color called Granite Green, a very sophisticated color IMO. Calling it green was quite stretch. If memory serves me correctly it was actually a medium gray metallic with an ever-so-subtle hint of olive. Would have bought it in a fingersnap. However to this day I have yet to see one on the road. Not sure if they even sold one.
Wow, olive Boxster with deep tan ragtop and custom brown...has a hint of British sportscar, but richer and more sophisticated. The Terracota interior with dark olive...that would be at the top of list, too, money permitting.
The 2005 911 is still suffering from RMS leaks (rear main seal). This has been going on with water-cooled Porsche sports cars since the 1997 Boxster and Porsche won't fix it!
It is bad enough that they had to sell out and make an SUV but to not fix the RMS leak?
The more I think about the Cayman configuration, the more I think it is a test for the future "911". I can't see Cayman conquering new markets. I believe it may be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Cayman should get a piece of both Boxster and 911 markets, and depending on how it is received may determine the future of the 911.
A base-Boxster Cayman would probably bring in new low-end buyers, but one that transcends the Boxster S at $60+K could only sell to existing enthusiasts IMO, especially since drop-tops account for the majority of their non-SUV sales. I have to believe Porsche knows this and is calculating its moves accordingly. I don't think for one minute that Cayman is a market-expansion vehicle. However, corporate spin will probably suggest otherwise.
The death of the 911 sounds like heresy but somewhere down the road a 400+ hp mid-engine 911-priced Porsche would not be such a shabby proposition. Indeed, the eye of the tiger may be focused on a certain crocodile.
"Let's face it, a rear-engined-car is a bad idea."
Well, riding bulls in a rodeo is a bad idea too ;-)
"The 2005 911 is still suffering from RMS leaks (rear main seal). This has been going on with water-cooled Porsche sports cars since the 1997 Boxster and Porsche won't fix it!"
Not all RMS Porsches have the RMS problem. As a matter of fact, 911s and Boxsters have done quite well with reliability. I try to stay optimistic. There aren't many alternatives to a Porsche. You have to play with the cards you are dealt.
"You have been reading about the bad break I got.
Yet today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
I wonder what that was about. Did Lou Gehrig hit the RMS lotto or something?
;-)
1) Appreciate if someone could help me with which is the best of the 3 options?
2) Is there anything specific I need to check?
3) And how much can I negotiate down from the quoted price?
2004 Brand new Seal Grey Boxster
Black Top
Graphite Grey Standard Leather
Bose (Digital) with Wind stop
Xenon Headlights
18" Lt Alloy Carrerra Wheels
CD Shelf Center Console
Wheel Caps with Colored Crests
Cruise Control
Remote Control Alarm System
Graphite Grey Floor Mats
MSRP of $51805
Sale Price of $45177
2004 Atlas grey boxster
Certified Preowned
17-inch Boxster S II wheel
Automatic air conditioning
BOSE® (Digital) with Windstop
CD Shelf Center Console
Cruise Control
Heated Seats
Litronic Headlights with Washer
Remote Control Alarm
Wheel Caps with Color Crest
Sale Price of $44995
Negoed down to 42995
2003 Black Boxster S
Certified Preowned
18" Carrera Wheel
Cruise Control
Heated Seats
Hi-Fi Sound Package (Digital)
Litronic Headlights with Washer
On Board Computer
Porsche Stability Management (PSM)
Remote Control Alarm
Wheel Caps with Color Crest
Wind Deflector
Sale Price of $44995
May come down to 42995
Hope this is the right forum for this query. Thanks.
I like the idea of a new car but I also prefer 17" wheels.
I'm no help am I?
I agree with shifty.. 17" wheels are a lot less hassle and the tires are 2/3 the price of the 18". But, the price on #2 might be the worst deal of the three.
Only buy the Boxster S, if you absolutely have to have the power.. You don't give the mileage on the used units, but I'd say the '03 Boxster S should sell for closer to $40K.
I'd pick option #1, if I could get it around $44K.. Plus, that is my favorite color... as if that matters.. Maybe they'd even knock off a thousand and swap for those 17" wheels on the CPO unit.
regards,
kyfdx
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but I was disappointed that its not going to be a 4 door, 4 seater..GT tourer....a 928 replacement... :-(
any one know how it looks ? I could not get any pictures of the Cayman . Just got the new Chrisotphorus issue....and it did not even talk about the Cayman....
what's with Porsche naming the cars with "Cay" prefixes ? Cayenne, Cayman, .. ? ;-)
wouldn't numbers ala 911 be better...or are they really not the sports cars that Porsche wanted them to be ... ?
he wanted $20,000....which would be OK if it did not have all those issues...which may not be minor....
saw some nice ones on ebay....but got outbid... :-(
still looking.. .....
A very clean GTS with no problems and decent miles should be worth $30K.
If you are buying an older 928, an automatic is way better than any 928 with a dual-disk clutch system. (up to 1987 I think).
I really want a automatic...because
1- according to many people, the auto is better in the 928....due to weight
2- I am not really comfortable with the layout shift pattern of the 928...where 1st gear is bottom left, instead of top left .