Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.

1679111222

Comments

  • jimhemijimhemi Posts: 223
    Don't forget the Minivan saving Chrysler's butt.

    Seems like things come full swing again, this time with different names. Instead of the "K" car saving Chrysler and making them profitable now the "LX" car is the profitable platform. Interestingly enough, the Mercedes division is slipping in quality control and is in danger of falling to number 5 under Lexus,Infiniti, BWW and Acura in luxury quality and reliability, this according to the JD Power and associates survey. So the Germans have done some good with Chrysler making them more reliable and of better quality control, while losing market share in there Mercedes division.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    saved Chrysler, but later on almost killed it, because they just hung onto the platform for too long, and instead of coming out with all-new platforms, just kept trying to facelift the K-car and pass the end result off as something new.

     

    One thing I've noticed is that, usually, Chrysler does fairly well in the middle of a decade, but then by the end of the decade things start to take a turn for the worse. I wonder if they're doomed to repeat this cycle, and while they might get a few good years out of the LX car, by the end of the decade they might start running into problems again?
  • jimhemijimhemi Posts: 223
    They do almost have a cyclical side to them. It seems that the 90's(1993?) came on pretty good with the new LHS, New Yorker, Concorde and the Intrepids did fairly well. Chrysler dumping the Eagle Division was a smart move. The early 60's were blah styling, mid 60's through 71 where the pinnacle of performance with the last year of the Hemi being 1971, well if you don't count today's Made is Mexico special called the HEMI.

    (Don't get me wrong, I love the Hemi of today, just disappointed when you find out that the American icon is made in Mexico.)

    I agree with you andre when you say they hold on to a design platform to long, although the of days of being able to tell the difference between a 1968 Charger from a 69 by simply looking at the split bumper of the 69 or the round tail lights of the 68 etc. It will be interesting to see what Chrysler comes out with next. They seem to be on the same path as GM with new models coming out over the next several years(American Revolution). In this case it seems that Chrylser has won the early battle with high horse power, in your face styling , and plenty of horse power. I'm anxiously awaiting the Firepower and Challenger. Look for the Challenger to be a re skinned version of the Firepower with less luxury items. Hopefully it will be in an obtainable price of under 40K so average income people can afford it.(Please, if Dodge makes the Challenger, lose the truck grill)
  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    Wow...who knew? I always assumed the TC was a rebadge attempt at classiness ala the Cadillac Cimeron. I had no idea the design predated the LeBaron of those times.

     

    I kinda liked them, though I think I only ever saw one or two on the roads. That T-bird-like hardtop was pretty distinctive, esp. in the 1980s. Did they come with a manual transmission option?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    in fact a friend of mine in one of my Mopar clubs has (or had, she was trying to sell it) a TC with the stick shift.

     

    Evidently there were 3 engines available: the 2.2 Turbo I or Mitsubishi 3.0 V-6, both mated to automatic trannies, or a more powerful Chrysler 2.2 with a Maserati DOHC head, which could only be had with the 5-speed Getrag manual.
  • was a (if I recall this right) Getrag 784, the same basic tranny used in Z34 Luminas. No they won't interchange, an yes, they are very rare. 500 or so for the Masi headed TC.

     

    Interestingly, Chrysler had three twin cam heads for the 2.2/2.5 turbo: R/T head by Lotus, Maserati head, and a head by Hans Hermann that never reached production stage, though numerous prototypes were made.

     

    Turboshadow
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    Anyone there?
  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    Either excoriate the new Charger ruthlessly, proclaim it to be divinely inspired, or get out!

    ;-) [Kidding!]
  • Well first off I'd like for Daimler and Chrysler to split, ever since they merged a lot of the new or redesigned vehicles have been a disappointment. Other than that I'd like to see Dodge bring back the Intrepid as its sedan and save the charger name for what it was originally meant to be used for, a muscle car. Now it doesn't have to handle like a boat, or get horrible gas millage, just make it a full size 2 door, with a Hemi option, standard manual, with optional auto/auto stick, and sport tuned suspension, make this thing something that can handle on a track, I wanna be able to drive long windy mountain roads going about 50-70. As for styling if anything Dodge needs to take a page out of Ford's book and combine the original look of the charger and add some modern day design features, but of coarse keep it tastefull, bold, intimidating, sexy, and pleasing to the eye. I've been wanting Dodge to come out with a car like that since I was 14. They have the viper which is in the same segment as the Corvette, and now they need something in the same segment as a camaro, Firebird, and Mustang.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    I thought my predjudiced, outspoken, but woefully uninformed Uncle Jack had been reincarnated until I saw the signature block.

    Making a public nuisance of yourself to a spokesmodel in Texas is sure to get the attention of the folks in Detroit and make them wipe the slate clean and start over...or get you arrested - I'm thinking the latter -

    It's a shameful day for us fellow Texans...
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    DC production information:

    LXDX48 Charger SRT-8 RWD Job #1 is 9/12/05
    (AHB) Police Group Job #1 is 9/21/05

    Watch for the crosshairs in the mirror - could be a law enforcement officer with a 6.1 Charger or Magnum!

    kcram
    Host - Wagons
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    police car - I sold hundreds of Crown Vics as a fleet manager at a Ford dealership, before the Caprice went out of production. It was tough competition.

    Die hard V-8/rear drive police officers have had to have Crown Vics, or settle for Malibus or Intrepids (no offense, Andre) and have moaned and complained about V-6 front drivers all along.

    They'll now have the choice of a car more powerful than a Crown Vic, just about as roomy inside, but smaller overall for easier parking and manuevering - what a deal, GI...
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    I talked to an Anne Arundel (MD) county cop who got one of the county's first Intrepids, and he said at the time it simply wasted the Crown Vic in acceleration and handling. It could just be a matter of choice though...if you're raised on RWD cars you're probably not going to like the FWD ones, and vice versa. I found an old Michigan State police test from 2003, IIRC, and while the Impala, Crown Vic, and Intrepid were all close from around 0-60 or so, at higher speeds the Crown Vic and Intrepid pulled away, and I think the Intrepid hit 100 mph in the shortest time. It also had the highest top speed, although all 3 were electronically limited, and all 3 could still break 125, IIRC. I posted a link to that test somwewhere, but I'm too lazy to go find it now.

    Still, the handling on an Intrepid is going to be different from a Crown Vic, and from a durability/ruggedness standpoint is no contest. The Crown Vic should be able to take much more of a beating than the Intrepid or Impala.

    I wonder how much a Magnum/Charger police car is going to cost, though? The Crown Vic might still have an advantage in pricing, and in raw overall room it's still going to be better. Especially in the trunk. The Crown Vic's trunk is something like 21 cubic feet, versus maybe 15.6 for the Charger (although I guess the Magnum would have an advantage, being a wagon).

    Also, maneuvering might be a tossup as well. While the LX cars are about 15-16 inches shorter overall than a Crown Vic, the wheelbase is almost 6 inches longer! You've got less overhang and less overall bulk, but I'd imagine that'll make for a wider turning circle. You'll have less car to park, but won't be able to turn as tightly, so it might be a wash.

    I also have a feeling that the Crown Vic might also be a sturdier, more durable car in the long run, and more able to take a beating. It's body-on-frame, versus unitized for the LX cars. Now Chrysler has been building unitized cars, including police cars, since 1960. However those older Mopars were a totally different breed, strong and overbuilt.

    Today the LX cars only have a GVWR of around 5,000 lb. And that's for a car that weighs around 4000+ lb, with a V-8. That doesn't seem to leave a lot of capacity left over. In contrast, my buddy's '04 Crown Vic LX weighs around 4,000 lb, but has a GVWR of 5500 lb. Even my old '89 Gran Fury had a GVWR of arounf 5100 lb, yet only weighed around 3500.

    It'll be interesting to see how these things do as police cars. The Michigan State Police tested a Magnum in their last comparison, but unfortunately tested one with a 3.5 V-6. Compared to how the Impala and Crown Vic have improved in the past couple years, it was underwhelming. But interestingly, it was quicker from 0-60 and 0-100 than what the Crown Vic, Intrepid, and Impala had been for 2003! So while it looks like GM and Ford are still offering the same old thing, they do seem to be making improvements to them over the years.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    I was selling Crown Vics to the Wyoming State Police for $9,000 when the retailed at $24k. Every manufacturer uses government/municipal incentives to make sure they're competitive. I also sold Ford F-250 4x4s to Wyoming Game and Fish for $12k, when they retailed at $25k.

    Pricing won't be a problem, DCC knows what they need to do.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    ..you guys may have seen this before, but check out this commercial for the Dodge Aries:

    http://www.big-boys.com/articles/dodge88.html

    Probably seen it before, but it still makes me laugh every time.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    but I think I may have seen it years ago. Does it have some nerdy looking kid with a proud look on his face, saying, with pride "My name is Justin (or something like that)...and I drive a DODGE!"

    As I recall, it was hysterical! And put together very professionally!
  • jimhemijimhemi Posts: 223
    Just to touch on the top speed issue. I have a Vic Interceptor, I got mine up to 135 mph and it runs out of steam from 110 up. Takes a long time to get from 110-135, or so it seems. The Police package cars do not have a computer speed limitor, if they do it's not factory. With the Hemi and much better aerodynamics, the Charger/Magnum should be able to more easily run down speeders or just to get a cup of coffee quicker.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    running Code 3 to the donut shop....those guys know when a fresh batch is done.

    Hey, I was a cop, I can joke...
  • I dunno - they might re-consider if it's a really hot seller right out of the gate... I remember 6, 7 years ago, GM was going to make a Police version of the Tahoe, but at the time, gas was cheap, they were selling all they could build..they decided they could make more money selling loaded Tahoes to consumers than they could selling Police package Tahoes to local governments.

    I'm just saying, if there's a waiting list for Chargers when they first come out, they might delay the police version until 2007, 2008
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    that a Hemi Charger/Magnum would blow the doors off of a Crown Vic in acceleration. I just have a feeling that it might have some long-term durability/abuse-ability problems, and might not be able to take the same punishment that the Crown Vic, being body-on-frame, having a higher GVWR, etc would be able to.

    As for the Tahoe, there is a police package Tahoe, as well as an Expedition. According to the MSP, they do 0-60 in about 10 seconds and top out around 100 mph. They're not meant to be high-speed pursuit vehicles.

    Also, some of the acceleration times, especially 0-60, that the MSP quotes might seem kind of slow. But that's because they time them differently from MT, C&D, etc. Where the buff rags will do everything they can to get the quickest time out of the car, such as power-braking and such, the MSP just puts two cops in the car and has them take off, with no special launch tricks. They do one run one way, one run back, to account for wind resistance, and then take the average.
  • davem2001davem2001 Posts: 564
    I thought they scrapped plans to build the police Tahoe? I've never actually see one on the road...I've seen Expeditions, my local Police department has a few (they use Impalas as their car)
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    it must be out, because the MSP tested a 2005. The test can be downloaded here: http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123--16274--,00.html

    It's a pdf file. It lists 4 different Chevy trucks:

    Silverado 2500 HD 4WD (0-60 in 10.97 seconds)
    Tahoe PPV E85 4WD (0-60 in 8.19 seconds)
    Tahoe PPV 2WD (0-60 in 8.27 seconds)
    Tahoe 4WD (0-60 in 9.46 seconds)

    the PPV models are actually topping out at 124-125 mph! The other two won't even hit 100.

    They also tested a Ford Expedition that topped out at 99 and an Explorer that topped out at 107
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    several PD Tahoes in our area. Also two Excursions and an Expedition.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    Oklahoma State Highway Patrol uses them. Evediently they couldn't find something more expensive to chase down speeders with. Not quite sure why they are using them as "persuit" vehicles.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    they're easier to spot from a longer distance - don't complain!

    These new Charger police cars will be harder to spot than a Crown Vic, especially if they use low profile light bars, or no light bar.
  • davem2001davem2001 Posts: 564
    I believe you guys, I've just never seen one - my local PD has Expeditions - I still remember reading something years ago about the Police Tahoe being cancelled due to strong consumer demand.. this was back in 96, 97 timeframe...I guess since demand isn't as strong now, they're glad to sell Tahoes to PD!
  • jimhemijimhemi Posts: 223
    Durability will be the ultimate sell to any department. They have to retrain the mechanics that work on these cars and that becomes very costly. The Hemi for law enforcement might not work unless they disable the MDS feature on the cop versions. The Hemi, with the MDS needs regular oil changes and I know first hand that the oil change schedules are every 6,000 miles for most of the state cars here. That's a lot of heat and idle time which just kills an engine. The MDS having the special valve allowing for half of the engine to work at sustained highway speeds might become problematic with sludged up oil.
    When they service the cars here, the oil comes out looking like tar, and of course there is the issue of cheap, contract oil. There also is an issue of running premium gas vs. the cheap stuff that any vic will run on. Think of all the local and state gas pumps that now must have a premium tank installed. If the Charger/Magnum cop special comes out I'm wondering if it would come equipped with a 4.7L V8? Then cheap gas and oil changes aren't so problematic.
    As for the Tahoe issue it comes down to training and costs. The Troopers here did not like the high center of gravity and poor handling of the Tahoe, despite its police package. Without 4x4 they where worse in the snow then the vics. Government contracts determine what gets bought and if you can purchase 2 cars for the price of say 1 Tahoe, usually 2 cars were bought.
  • davem2001davem2001 Posts: 564
    You bring up a good point about the MDS...

    I sorta doubt they'd build a special edition with the 4.7L..I don't know all the laws, but wouldn't they have to certify it with the EPA, etc.. even if it wasn't sold to the general public?

    Here's a scenario - maybe it would have the 3.5L V6 - I know that sounds crazy, but it has 250hp, which is more than the Crown Vic has.

    Or, would the DOHC be more of a maintenance problem than the MDS system?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,104
    that the Hemi police cars didn't have the cylinder deactivation, and were set up more like the Hemi that's in trucks. And FWIW, I don't think the big 6.1 Hemi has cylinder deactivation at all.

    As for the 3.5, yeah it has 250 hp, compared to something like 224 for the Crown Vic. But where it comes up short is torque. It also has 250 ft-lb of torque, where I think the Crown Vic is more like 280? In the MSP test, the Crown Vic would do 0-60 in the low-8's, while the 3.5 Magnum was 9.1.

    Another shortcoming of the Magnum 3.5, IMO, is the transmission. It's the same transmission that has been giving Chrysler problems for years now, and while they continue to improve it, it still has its issues. And they tend to pop up more in cars with larger engines, higher torque, and higher weights. I think the tranny is also designed to preserve itself somehow, and it does that by not utilizing the full power of the engine. I've driven an Intrepid R/T with and a Magnum with the 3.5 V-6, and the tranny just felt slow to shift to me. It's like it would delay for a moment before shifting into the next higher gear, and just didn't react all that quickly. In contrast, the tranny in my 2.7 Intrepid is much more responsive. Although it's still not as quick to react as an old Torqueflite!

    Oh yeah, the 3.5 V-6 is just an SOHC unit. It's the small 2.7 V-6 that's DOHC.
  • davem2001davem2001 Posts: 564
    You're right, the 6.1L doesn't have the MDS, that's why the SRT-8 300 has to pay a gas guzzler tax... Also, the 6.1L (at least in the SRT-8) is set up for premium fuel. They'd have to 'de-tune' it somewhat, I'd assume, to use 'regular' in the Police application....

    Seems to me, like you said above, the most logical choice would be the 5.7L Hemi without the MDS, like they use in the trucks. Like Jimhemi said above, I'm sure the municipal gvmts would trade away a few HP and MPG in exchange for durability.
This discussion has been closed.