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Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)

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Comments

  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    Crew, Ive been working way too hard and can't keep up with this and other threads. My '94 Explorer is sending me clear signals that it is ready to retire even if it doesnt have a fully-vested 401K plan...and pretty soon my gang is looking at a 2nd Forester XT ( what a great car!), a Legacy GT wagon, an OBXT vs OB VDC, a B9Tribeca or , horrors..a Highlander! Did I miss a post with allegedly reliable pricing or is that still months away?

    Mark
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Since when has lackluster sales performance stopped GM? :-b
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The addition of Toyota's hybrids may spark returned interest in the Highlander, but I have to side with Bob on market competition. The hybrids themselves shouldn't be a big obstacle for the Tribeca.

    "Too much competition in the premium SUV market and the Tribeca offers nothing over its competitors."

    Not nothing. It's relatively inexpensive for a feature-laden vehicle. Otherwise I agree. Most of the B9's advantages are very small. And it's soon to face a new round of competition.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    myself included, are a bit disappointed with the Tribeca as it currently stands. I suspect that Subaru has big plans for this model.

    Historically Subaru rarely introduces an all-new model, with all new running gear, all in the same year. The last Subaru to do that was the SVX back in '91.

    I expect to see the following on the Tribeca, perhaps starting with MY07:

    • A turbo trim level
    • A larger displacement H-6. It's well known that they have a 3.6 H-6 in the works.
    • Detail content upgrades such as xenon headlights, auto up/down window switches, and so forth.

    Subaru does this intentionally. If you play all your cards in one year, you quickly lose the attention of the press for subsequent years. So Subaru—every year—"tweak" their model lineups, if for no other reason, to keep their name in the forefront with automotive news editors.

    Also, Subaru knows that the MDX and a few others are up for a redesign soon. They want to see what these new cars offer, and then respond accordingly. It's nothing more than automotive leap-froging.

    Bob
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Posts: 1,394
    i completely agree. they do this a step at a time
  • WMartonWMarton Posts: 58
    Don't forget to add this one to the "to do" list:

    - new front end. :-)

    Bill
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Touchee! LOL

    Hybrid Highlanders and the RX400H will sell at full MSRP for the foreseeable future, and Toyota's going to rake in the bucks, no doubt.

    But hybrids are aiming for, what, 2% market share in the near-term? Don't forget the other 98%. Even long-term we're talking 90% non-hybrids.

    They just get a disproportionate amount of attention (hype, even). 12,000 deposits is great, but they sell that many F150s on a bad Thursday.

    The other thing is street prices. We know the hybrids will sell for a full $48k plus, while street prices for the Tribeca will put it at $29-35k or so.

    I don't think even the Highlander hybrid will overlap with those prices, because they tend to load them up.

    To be honest the RX330 will probably give up those sales, not the Tribeca. The RX will be sandwiched in the middle of the two trendier Toyota hybrids.

    -juice
  • jon_in_ctjon_in_ct Posts: 137
    From rsholland, "Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)" #2002, 1 Mar 2005 2:09 pm
    Historically Subaru rarely introduces an all-new model, with all new running gear, all in the same year. The last Subaru to do that was the SVX back in '91.

    I expect to see the following on the Tribeca, perhaps starting with MY07:

    • A turbo trim level
    • A larger displacement H-6. It's well known that they have a 3.6 H-6 in the works.
    • Detail content upgrades such as xenon headlights, auto up/down window switches, and so forth
    I can't figure out why you believe "it's well known that they have a 3.6 H-6 in the works." Maybe because it's often repeated by people who have no clue about what FHI is doing.

    FHI can't increase the EZ30's 89.2-mm (3.51) bore because there's only 9.2-mm (0.36-in) of metal separating the cylinder bores. FHI could increase the EZ30's stroke, but that would require raising it from 80-mm (3.15-in) to 96-mm (3.78-in) to achieve a 3.6L displacement. But FHI's been so enamored with oversquare engines for so long, I just can't see them "stroking" the EZ30 up to 3.6L displacement.

    What if FHI simply added two cylinders to the 2.5 engine, similar to what they did to create the EG33D engine for the SVX? That's a lot more expensive so FHI would want to keep the 2.5L's bore and stroke, resulting in a 3.7L 6-cylinder engine that could only be used in the B9 (or SVX) because it's so long.

    I believe the twin turbo 6-cylinder engine in the B11S was a 3.0L. Its power was rated as 294kw (394hp). That'd probably be sufficient for the B9 to outperform most competitors.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    • A larger displacement H-6. It's well known that they have a 3.6 H-6 in the works.

    Ok, let me rephrase that:

    • A larger displacement H-6. It's been rumored that they have a 3.6 H-6 in the works.

    Bob
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Posts: 1,760
    i need to take a engine displacement 101 class. brenda you teach that?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Technically, Subaru could increase the bore. I'm not saying they should, but they could.

    Using a technique similar to Honda's quad-sequential sleeve design, they might get the the distance between bores below 9mm. Honda got it down to 6mm. There's no reason why Subaru couldn't invest in developing their own method, or pay to use the patents.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    I have no doubt the Tribeca will do fine. At a bare minimum, it's going to allow Subaru to keep all those customers that have been going to other brands to get more seatroom.

    The Tribeca basically has all the goodness of the high-end Legacy/Outback models (which are selling very well) and adds new capabilities and features. It will probably sell for the standard invoice to MSRP range for Subarus, but I doubt we'll see incentives and deep discounts a la Ford/GM.

    Craig
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    According to the very early reports, Subaru insiders were calling the Tribeca a 5+2. So your observations are not surprising.

    CRaig
  • trueawdtrueawd Posts: 64
    As far as I've heard the next big engine for the Tibeca will be a Turbo 6 and yes most likely a twin.

    This would give it between 350-400 horse and of course a pretty flat tourque curve. Means tq should be about the same as the horsepower. It is the engine from the B11. It would be light fast and hopefully it will be next year!!!

    With all 4 wheels pinching the ground better then any other suv on the planet and the boxer..it should out perfrom them all...mabye turbo Cayanne would be one better..if that??
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    I'm sure Subaru is testing many different engines, many we will never hear about. The rumored 3.6 I mentioned earlier could be on an all new block, and not based on the current 3.0. I'm just speculating here...

    BTW, I believe the 3.6 rumor originated not from nasioc, but from from one of the car magazines, some time ago. Which one, I don't remember?

    As Jon mentioned, a 3.7 H-6 could be developed just by adding two more cylinders to the 2.5 H-4. That's certainly a possibility too.

    3.7 H-6 based off the current 2.5 H-4: 2457cc + 1228.5cc = 3685.5cc.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They could stroke it - remember the Tribeca's platform is wider, so it could accomodate a 3.3-3.6l or so engine based on the EZ30.

    Or we could see some form of the EJ257 turbo, maybe with 280-300hp if Subaru wanted to keep it affordable.

    An STi could get the H6 and a turbo, but that would put prices in the $40s, and then everyone would be screaming about the price.

    I bet there are several design studies going on simulateously. The ST-X had a supercharged engine that never made it to production. So just because a certain engine is rumored, even factual, does not mean it will make production.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    I bet there are several design studies going on simulateously. The ST-X had a supercharged engine that never made it to production.

    Oh absolutely! I'm sure there are tons of engine studies going on that we will never hear about.

    I don't think we'll see a H-4 of any kind in this vehicle.

    Bob
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "...just because a certain engine is rumored, even factual, does not mean it will make production."

    A very good point.

    A whole new block would be expensive. And it would make the current H6 more or less redundant. Engine blocks should last at least 8-10 years on the market before being replaced. They need to amortize the costs. Building an engine that ends of up being replaced in a few years smacks of poor product development. I give Subaru more credit than that. I think it's far more likely they have another solution in mind.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    And it would make the current H6 more or less redundant.

    I don't agree with that. I think there's room for both engine blocks to exist.

    I can see the 3.0 (small block) H6 in Legacys, Outbacks, and even Foresters. This engine was just redesigned last year, and I see a long future for it.

    I can see 3.6/7 (large block) H6 in B9 and future larger Subarus, which most likely will be coming at some point.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The EZ30 started production in 2001 IIRC, they just updated the tuning but its basically still the same design (bore, stroke, block, all the geometry).

    The EJ series goes way back, but the turbos use a different block anyway.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    but don't the 2.0 and 2.5 H4s have different blocks? And don't forget that Subaru also sells a 1.5 and 1.6 H4s overseas. I'm sure they are built off different blocks from that of the 2.5 engine.

    So I definitely see the possibility have having two H6 engine families—especially as Subaru moves upmarket.

    Varmint, are the 3.0 Accord V6 and the 3.5 Acura V6 built off the same engine block? I'm assuming the Acura 3.2 V6 is based on the Accord engine, but what about the 3.5?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think the 2.0l belongs to the EZ family.

    I'm not sure about the smaller displacement engines in Japan.

    The EJ series has been around for ages, ever since the 1.8l, 2.2l, and 2.5l have been around in the US.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Yeah, the 3.0, 3.2, and 3.5 are all part of the J series. Same casting, different pots.

    The old 3.5RL had a different 3.5L, which was not based on the J series. It was actually a very old racing block they retuned for street use. But the thank-gawd-they-finally-did-it 2005 RL uses the same J series.

    Getting back on topic, I think a new, larger H6 could be cast in several sizes. As well as a 3.5 or higher, they could leave it un-bored for 3.0 or 3.1 and replace the current H6. A single block spread out over several models would be cheaper than maintaining two H6s even if they have to convert engine bays.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Posts: 1,760
    like i am ever on topic...
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    I believe the 1.8L isn't even a boxer. Anyone confirm?

    Can't believe we haven't had any good Tribeca rumors for so long! C'mon, Subaru! Leak us a tidbit. :) Somebody somewhere must've captured a photo of these on the street by now.

    Wonder when Subaru will call to let me know I won my Tribeca in their contest. *sigh*
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    but I'll be going tomorrow afternoon to the Milwaukee show and will try to get more detailed pics of the seats and the LATCH points. Not sure if I'll be at the chat tomorrow night, but I'll post pics as soon as I can.

    -Brian
  • jon_in_ctjon_in_ct Posts: 137
    I disagree about the "boring" aspect of this recent discussion. varmint's post at varmint, "Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)" #2009, 1 Mar 2005 10:26 pm indicates he understands the issues:
    Technically, Subaru could increase the bore. I'm not saying they should, but they could.

    Using a technique similar to Honda's quad sequential-sleeve design, they might get the the distance between bores below 9mm. Honda got it down to 6mm.
    If anyone else actually read the article cited there, they'd find that Honda engineers had to overcome numerous obstacales/difficulties to get that extra 3-mm (0.11-in) bore. If FHI were to able achieve the same success and reduce the "web distance" on the B9's engine to only 6-mm from 9.2-mm, the EZ30 could become the EZ32 - still not close to a 3.6L engine. But why did Honda's engineers spend so much effort and yen? The article explains clearly why Honda's engineers were jumping through all of those hoops:
    With this liner construction, the web distance, or distance between the inner walls of the adjoining cylinders, could be reduced to 6 mm from the separate lines' 9 mm, while retaining the same bore pitch. This was the essential requirement so that the new block could be cast and machined on the existing Suzuka lines.
    It's VERY expensive to start up a new engine production line, which apparently is necessary to make engines with a new bore pitch.

    An article at http://www.sae.org/automag/globalview_09-00/06.htm describing the development of FHI's EZ30 engine makes the issue of changing bore pitch even clearer. According to Noriaki Sekine, Manager of power unit development at FHI:
    "Getting a new bore pitch-the distance between two adjoining cylinder centers-is really a once-in-your-engineering-life occurrence," said Sekine, "so significant is its influence."
    With this in mind, I'd say that the recent engine displacement discussion here has veered not to boring, but to, how shall I say this politely, uninformed. Consider this contribution from ateixeira, "Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)" #2014, 2 Mar 2005 1:46 pm piece by piece
    They could stroke it - remember the Tribeca's platform is wider, so it could accomodate a 3.3-3.6l or so engine based on the EZ30.
    Stroking an engine doesn't change its external dimmensions.
    Or we could see some form of the EJ257 turbo, maybe with 280-300hp if Subaru wanted to keep it affordable.
    A four-cylinder spark ignition engine is a non-starter with the B9 Tribeca.
    An STi could get the H6 and a turbo, but that would put prices in the $40s, and then everyone would be screaming about the price.
    A B9 Tribeca wouldn't need to called an "STi" to be equipped with a turbo EZ30 and the only ones who'd whine about the price would be those who paid $50K for some other wimpier brand.
    I bet there are several design studies going on simulateously. The ST-X had a supercharged engine that never made it to production. So just because a certain engine is rumored, even factual, does not mean it will make production.
    The ST-X design and fabrication was stricly an SOA effort. SOA hired a Michigan company, SVI (see http://www.subaru.net/owners/prototype/stx/stx.htm and http://www.automotive-technology.com/projects/subaru_STX/subaru_STX4.html) to build the ST-X and its powertrain. To say there are "several design studies going on" is hardly profound. FHI's CEO has declared they're working on both hybrid and diesel engine development. But this in no way supports the idea that FHI is working on a 3.6L engine for the Tribeca.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    Joe over at www.cars101.com posted some new info on the following page, including options and interior/exterior color combinations for each configuration that will be available. It's VERY nice to see Subaru offering a choice of interiors for most of the exterior colors. (Thank You, Subaru!)

    http://www.cars101.com/subaru/tribeca/tribeca2006.html#orders

    Disappointing to see so many little "premium" touches (like puddle lights & the auto-dimming mirror) are options, but I'm sure Subaru's trying to keep that MSRP down. Also somewhat disappointed the audio upgrade is only available with a bump up to leather. The upgraded audio should be STANDARD across the line, since this dash won't allow for aftermarket upgrades.
  • jon_in_ctjon_in_ct Posts: 137
    Thanks for the heads-up, jeffmc. I can see another contingeny that'll be disappointed (as in: This Sucks) - those who wanted a larger Outback (i.e. 5-seater) with all the ammenities. Their only factory options are cloth/leather and color. They're denied the NAV, Rear Seat Entertainment (RSE) aka DVD, and upgraded sound system:
    STD: 100-Watt AM/FM stereo with MP3-compatible single-disc in-dash CD player, 6 audio speakers
    UPGD: 160-Watt AM/FM stereo with MP3-compatible 6-disc in dash CD player, 9 audio speakers

    The only options the 5-seater folks can order are the port (or dealer) installed options.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,694
    Hmmm... Anyone else having trouble accessing the cars101 site today? Usually I don't have a problem with that site...

    Bob
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