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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    At $15K for a so-so one, andre's friend will be buried for life, and the life after that. These cars will probably never become a first-tier collectible, as they don't have much character like the older SLs do.

    And sadly, my friend was. He had the thing for maybe 3 years, and managed to sell it for around $7500 when he ran into financial problems. I heard that the transmission went out on it not too long after he sold it, so I guess he got lucky there. It was early summer 2000 when he bought this thing. The economy was better back then, just before the tech bubble burst, and while we were complaining about gasoline costs, for the most part it was only around $1.50-2.00 per gallon. So is it possible the market for these things was better back then?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    'fraid not. Regrettably, your friend is probably a textbook case of just not researching the market. Perhaps he believed the hyperbolic assertions of the seller, or maybe he was confusing this model with the values for the 280SLs, figuring "an SL is an SL".

    In is defense, there is plenty of BAD information on values where the publisher or website owner seems to pick numbers out of a hat somewhere. Usually, these sites are connected to dealers, car clubs or parts providers--just a coincidence, I'm sure.

    Or maybe he saw some $15,000 cars that sold on TV or in magazines, but made the fatal error of not matching comparables of equal quality, provenance, options, etc.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    With a dead tranny, a car like that would be worth so little. He really got lucky.

    Back in 2004 I think it was, I found a 70K mile 1988 560SL at a local dealer. It was diamond blue to match my W126, so I was attracted to it. It was an immaculate 1 owner car. They wanted 15K for it...it did sell in no more than a few days...that's the kind your friend should have bought.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,278
    81 Porsche This looks to be a good example of a 911. How is this price?

    Monster trucks are good investments Tink gas prices are making it a little hard to move this?

    This truck is a beauty Tough to price something like this

    Needs too many odds and ends for this price

    Looks good

    64 Chysler 300 Interesting car
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Something has got to be up with that '60 Chrysler 300F. Even a total rust bucket parts car would probably go asking for more than $4800, and I imagine a really nice one would fetch $30-40K or more.

    As for that Caprice, which is actually a '75, I'd think $16.9K would be all the money for a really pristine example with the 454 big block and fully optioned up. I've always been afraid of the 400, because it's still a small block engine, but has been bored out to an inch of its life, and has siamesed cylinders. I've heard conflicting things about siamesed engines, though. I'd always thought that they had problems dissipating heat evenly, which would stress them out, and cooling problems could be common, but I've also heard that a siamesed block is actually stronger, so it's better for building up for racing?

    Anyway, the '75 Caprice convertible isn't a particularly rare car. GM made a big deal out of '75 being the last year for these convertibles, and they sold pretty well. They probably ran off around 10-11,000 Caprices, if not more. I think they actually ran off around 20,000 Oldsmobile Deltas! The Grand Ville and LeSabre convertible were much more rare, but I swear it seems like just about every one built has survived. If you wanted a big, comfy, roomy, fairly affordable convertible, 1975 was the last opportunity to buy a new one, and a lot of people jumped on that. For '76, the Eldorado convertible was still around, but I dunno if it would be called "affordable". That's another car where it seems like every one survived, and I'm sure there are speculators from the 70's that still haven't recouped their "investment". :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    81 Porsche 911 -- price is retail. Don't know about these "common" oil and transmission leaks. Those could be very serious defects, like camshaft tower seals (engine out).

    Monster Truck -- sale-proof

    74 Caprice Convertible---overpriced by 1/3 at least. Try $10,000.

    300F -- yes, that is weird for it to be priced so low. Either a real good deal or a scammer or a real bondo baby piece of crap.

    64 Chevy Pro Touring Truck -- that might sell, it looks very well done, and the price is far less than the cost to have done it. It would probably appraise higher at any rate. I'd say $50,000 in last year's market, and $35, 000 in today's market.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Yeah the Chrysler is a scammer...theyr latest pattern is to have emails with names in the username part. Seattle CL gets loaded up with these scams, but it is policed in a way that would make Stalin proud, so the ads get flagged fast.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    On the Porsche, it says "Jet-Hot coated and heat wrapped cat-bypass pipe". Does this mean the cat's been bypassed? No way to pass smog with that, right?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh I didn't see that. Nope, you can't pass smog like that. The seller puts himself at risk selling a car like that. If say it were shipped to California, it would probably be impounded upon inspection if they spotted it, or if not, all that stuff would have to go back on to pass smog and be registered. Don't think the new owner would be very happy about that.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    OK, I didn't know if that was some "Porsche-speak" for something normal. Knowing that this guy screwed up the car for no good reason, it makes me question his judgement - what else did he do to it that we can't see? How'd he drive it? I'd pass.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    When I was on my quest for a Blazer xTreme, I found lots of ads for vehicles that had stereo upgrades, lowering kits, chrome, etc ...

    What I found this to mean in most cases were that the car had a lot of glitz, but was poorly cared for. When I decide to sell mine, it will be listed as "excellent condition, unmolested original."

    An S10 Blazer with 22" wheels is just painful to look at.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    In looking at older MB, I am always scared away by aftermarket wheels and stereos. People who properly care for these cars seldom add such items.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    And when they do add them they usually screw something up. The stock stereo in a Benz is great and very few aftermarket ones are going to be better.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I see a lot of the old Becker Grand Prix style units swapped out. I know these were not the best stereos, but they are good enough for normal use, and more importantly to me, they look right in the car. My eyes find it very unappealing to see the somber high quality interior of a W126 or W124 clashed with by a bright busy modern looking stereo face.

    I think in the W211 and up cars, it is pretty impossible to swap anything out, as nothing will fit in the hole without looking like crap.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Ha; a.k.a. "test" pipe. The cat is gone, although if you're lucky he might still have it laying around somewhere.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    slightly less common Integra swap

    bit of a leap from this to a Supra Turbo

    buy my mods, get a free car

    buy my mods, get a free truck

    gas is getting expensive

    saleproof

    the unloved Silvia

    :shakes head sadly:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Why is there a 90s fax machine stuck on top of that Corvette engine? :P

    That Supra has probably seen a harder life than the average 30 year old Beirut taxi.

    That Olds 98 coupe is hilarious, I can't see how that thing can take a corner at more than 15mph.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    That Olds 98 coupe is hilarious, I can't see how that thing can take a corner at more than 15mph.

    LOL...well if it just has the V-6, as the seller claims, 15 mph might just be its top speed. I also notice the the seller thinks it's FWD. :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    lol...I was going to say something about that, but was so amazed by the wheels that I forgot.

    I see that kind of thing often, people don't know the specifics of their car. Was something that big regularly produced with a 6? Of course, back then a V8 might not have had much more power.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Starting in 1981, they started putting the Buick 4.1/252 CID V-6 in the 98 as the standard engine. It was a 4-bbl with 125 hp, which actually wasn't too bad for that timeframe. Ford and Chrysler were only getting 130 hp out of their 302 and 318 engines, and I don't think any of GM's little V-8's, like the Chevy 267, Olds 260, or Pontiac 265 put out quite that much. And stuff like the Chevy 229 and Buick 231 were only good for around 110 hp. But that was really too much car for this little engine.

    The Olds 307 was optional, and I suspect most of them were actually built this way. It had a 4-bbl carb, and was only rated at 140 hp. However, it was pretty torquey. My grandmother's '85 LeSabre had this engine, and I always thought it seemed pretty peppy, given that low hp rating.

    Still, that shows how far these cars fell. The '76 had a 455 standard with around 200-205 hp. The '77-79 had a 350 standard, usually with around 155-170 hp, and a 1985 hp 403 optional. Considering the weight they shed in downsizing, I imagine the 403 models performed as well as the '76 with the 455.

    But then for 1980, the 307 was standard, and for 1981 it was the 252 V-6. I imagine 0-60 must have come up in around 18-20 seconds! I know people don't buy a car like this to take out on the drag strip, but considering that these things were flagships in their day, they should've had SOME dignity about them!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    I saw maybe one or two of the V6 Olds come through the dealership. Almost all were either 307 or more common 350. The 403 was strong enough for the car, but not too many came through.

    Now, I did have a friend who drove a brand new '76 Delta 88 2dr with the 455 4bbl. Sure, it was de-tuned from the '70 model, but holy cow that sucker had some torque. No point punching it off the line, you would melt the rubber off the rim before that sled got moving. But give it a 20mph rolling start and a lot of Camaro's and Firebirds of that generation got a rude surprise!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I don't trust a chop job nor that interior nor those wheels

    Not many of these around

    French Jeep

    Not especially vintage, but a nice looking car
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    The strongest point in the malaise era must have been 1980-82. I am glad I was just a little kid then and can't really remember the automotive scene from the time.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Yeah, that was probably about the peak for the worst of it, although I don't think it really hit everybody at the same time. GM's bigger cars weren't too bad in 1980, although I guess the Buick V-6es, especially the 252 that was just making the scene, and the Pontiac 301, and the lightweight 200C transmission were still troublespots. Some of the bigger engines were also cut, as the Pontiac 400, Olds 403, and Cadillac 425 played out their final act for 1979. And even in '79, they started cutting back these engines. My old car book shows the 403 being limited to the Electra, 98, big Buick/Olds wagons, and Pontiac Trans Am for 1979, but no longer offered in the sedan/coupe versions of the LeSabre or Delta. And while my book shows the 400 being offered in the Catalina/Bonneville for 1979, I've heard that it was actually dropped after '78.

    After 1980, they dropped the 350 engines in these cars as well. Well, unless you wanted a Diesel. :sick: That just left the Chevy 305, Pontiac 301, and Olds 307 as the biggest engines for 1981, unless you went with a Caddy, which had the 368, or the Corvette, which could still be had with a 350. So in just two short years, they cut the top horsepower in the big GM cars from around 180-185 hp down to 140-150, and they gave up a LOT of torque along the way.

    1981 was when GM started putting ECU's in their cars, with the module being down in the kick panel in the passenger side footwell. That caused a lot of problems for them, although I guess they got the kinks worked out after a couple years. The 4-speed overdrive version of the THM200 was initially troublesome, too.

    By 1983 though, I think they were staring to get their acts together and 1984 would be better still. The move to FWD presented another reliability/durability hurdle, but the older, simpler RWD cars tended to be fairly good.

    Now that I think about it, the biggest piece of junk I ever had was a 1982 model. A Cutlass Supreme coupe with the 231. Only car I ever had where both the transmission AND engine went bad. In its defense though, it was 11 years old when I bought it, and I only paid $800 for it. The previous owner could have been just as much to blame for it as GM.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Yeah, '73-'83 was the decade of pain, with average 0-60 times from a bunch of reviews in the 11-14 sec range :sick: In '85 they dropped back below 10 sec. :)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Yeah, '73-'83 was the decade of pain, with average 0-60 times from a bunch of reviews in the 11-14 sec range."

    While no one wants to go backwards on performance, the slow acceleration times wasn't nearly as important, in the scheme of things, as the poor reliability of the cars of that period.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's why there are older people in America who won't buy an American car as long as they live. The pain and suffering are seared into their brains. The young 'uns, they didn't go through the agony of 1974-1984, when reliability was an option you had to order on an American car.

    It's no accident that people who "collect" cars from those years modify the hell out of them.

    One of the major problems was that this was "transitional" technology, where the emissions and engine management were electro-mechanical, with use of vacuum actuators and complex relay circuits, overlaid with tubing, piping, air pumps---good grief.

    Now it's all in one black box, more or less.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...the agony of 1974-1984, when reliability was an option you had to order on an American car."

    In most cases, that option was unavailable at any price.

    Not to defend Detroit, but In fairness to Detroit, was the reliability of the European cars that came to our shores from, say, the '73 model year - '82 any better, or materially better? Didn't each of the European models have one or more frustrating, chronic problems, and wasn't their cost for maintenance and repair generally higher than for Detroit iron?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Trying to think of sports cars from that time that had solid performance and mechanics in stock form:

    Porsche 911 SC
    Porsche 944
    Mazda RX-7

    That might be it.

    As for reliability, Japan had great commuter cars. Europeans were awful.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    It's no accident that people who "collect" cars from those years modify the hell out of them.

    One of the major problems was that this was "transitional" technology, where the emissions and engine management were electro-mechanical, with use of vacuum actuators and complex relay circuits, overlaid with tubing, piping, air pumps---good grief.

    I think my mechanic said that the next step with my '79 New Yorker, if the carburetor rebuild didn't fix its starting problem, was going to be to ditch the Lean Burn. I guess that's one good thing about cars from that era, is that for the most part they were just 60's cars with some experimental 70's crap bolted on. When the 70's crap failed, you could find ways to bypass it.

    As the years went by and all that crap became more sophisticated and integrated, it would be much more fatal to the car when it failed. Components just become more complex and expensive to fix. I imagine that it would be easier, in the long run, to nurse my '79 New Yorker along than it would with my '00 Intrepid. The NYer would be more of a nickle-and-dime-you-to-death type of car, where the Intrepid would sort of save it up and hit you with financial hardship all at once.

    I guess one indication is that '79 New Yorkers, for being almost 30 years old, aren't that hard to come across these days. When you consider they weren't that popular when new (about 54K built), weren't put together very well, yet as used cars made for great taxis (and demo derby cars, as they were more solidly built than the downsized Ford/GM rivals), and are really just old 4-door cars from one of Chrysler's darkest periods, it seems that they survived pretty well.

    But in the year 2030, I wonder how easy it would be to find a still serviceable 2000 Intrepid? Or even an Accord, Camry, etc? I've had things fail on the Intrepid that didn't even exist on a 1979 car. And other things, like brake rotors, have been reduced to a throwaway part. While other components, like the thermostat housing, have gone from a $5.00 part you can install yourself to a part that's $200+ installed.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    In the early 80s MB had a very sold lineup, much narrower in scope than today, and based around engineering rather than bling. The sturdy W123, already classic 107, and the new W126 which was arguably the most advanced sedan in the world and had a nearly flawless introduction. Seeing how many MB of that era are still around today, I'll say they were the best European car of the time. In the mid 70s some MB models are kind of sketchy though, I think there are a lot of FI issues in 1975-77 models.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the Japanese cars were pretty good back then---obviously, since they sold a lot of them and started gobbling up market share (and they aren't done gobbling it, even today).

    Mercedes were spotty but they looked great and handled and braked nicely; Porsche had a bad patch 75-77 but came out into blazing sunshine with the SC model in 1978. Volvos were over-rated as usual but they were rugged and had a good reputation (perception is as good as reality). Saabs, Fiats, Audis all sucked. Alfas were pretty good for what they were, and they were attractive and fun.

    I guess the problem with the domestics in the 1974-1985 Dark Ages was that they really had NO strong suit to offset their bad points, whereas most imports had strong points that outweighed their weak points.

    Aside from the Buick GNX and the Corvette C4, I doubt if any domestic car from say 1977 to 1990 or so would ever be missed by historians.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Aside from the Buick GNX and the Corvette C4, I doubt if any domestic car from say 1977 to 1990 or so would ever be missed by historians.

    I'd say from a historical standpoint, cars like the 1977 Caprice/Impala (the dawn of the age of efficiency), the 1980 Citation (mass-produced FWD, and could have been a real turning point in the battle against the imports, had the quality been there), 1981 K-car (saviour of Chrysler), and 1986 Taurus (reinventing the family car) were pretty significant. And around 1983-84, that's when performance started to make a return in cars like the Mustang GT, Trans Am, and Camaro. And the Mopar 2.2 Turbo also helped in getting power to the people. The 1984 Voyager/Caravan were VERY significant, blurring the distinction between car and truck and rendering the traditional wagon nearly obsolete.

    Now from a collector's/speculator's standpoint, no. None of those cars I mentioned will ever be worth much. But from a historical standpoint, those 13 years represented one of the biggest changes in automotive history.

    As for the Corvette C4, is there really much collectibility there? Whenever I think of that car, I always think of Dirk Benedict on the A-team trying to sweet talk some lady. Or I think of the one that a manager here at work just let deteriorate to the point it wasn't driveable anymore, and then when he moved, he just left it in the parking lot at the apartment building where he had been staying, where it sat until it got towed away.

    And are there really that many domestics built SINCE 1990 that are ever going to be destined for greatness? There's the 1994-96 Impala SS, the Taurus SHO, some of the Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, and Trans Ams, perhaps. Limited production stuff like the Dodge Viper.

    But I think the days are gone forever, when someone will get excited about a mainstream, run-of-the-mill car like an Accord, Camry, or Impala. A 4-door 1965 Impala, Fury, or Galaxie, with just a base V-8, will at least generate some interest these days. Now they'll never be in the league with their hardtop, convertible, big block counterparts. But I doubt if your typical 4-door of today will even reach the status of a stereotypical mid-60's family car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well perhaps historians and collectors do have different points of view, you are right, but in the case of the Citation or the Voyager or K-car, I think they are all destined for the dustbin of history. Nobody cared about them then, and aside from a few lines of text in some encyclopedic tome, they really aren't much worth mentioning. It's the same as say in military history. There's the Battle of Antietam and then there's the skirmish at Pig's Bluff. Each gets the appropriate amount of space and investigation I think.

    But you know, if someone wants to take a car from the Dark Age and re-fit it with a good powerplant, maybe customize the body to make it more interesting....hey...it's a cheap way to get into the hobby. Just don't get silly and think you are "preserving history", unless of course you are operating a Wax Museum :P
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Aside from the Buick GNX and the Corvette C4, I doubt if any domestic car from say 1977 to 1990 or so would ever be missed by historians.

    Lemko and myself are very insulted that you didn't include our FWD H-Bodies in that statement. :sick:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Lemko and myself are very insulted that you didn't include our FWD H-Bodies in that statement.

    I have to admit that, in a perverse sort of way, I'm kinda proud to own two examples from Chrysler's darkest hour...1979. Although with the way things are going now, I wonder if some of their current hours are darker than that?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    '74 was also a very dark year for Chrysler Corp. There were rumors that it wouldn't survive. Chrysler managed to recover, but it was like a rallye in a bear market, because it hit a lower low in '79. Will its current current problems surpass the desperation of the late '70s, and usher the company's demise, or will it turn around yet another time? Time will tell, but if I were to guess, I'd say that another merger or sale of the company is in Chrysler's future.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    I don't know what my fascination is with Chrysler and the cars from its dark years, but I have to confess that there are some '74 models I like, too. I thought that year's Fury and Monaco were really attractive cars. They seemed to have been influenced heavily by Buick styling from around 1971-72, but I thought they were clean, handsome looking beasts. Here's a 1974 Fury 2-door hardtop. Now once they started going for that odd look with the single headlights, I didn't care for them too much. And I thought the Dodge Monacos looked better with the quad headlights than with the hidden headlights.

    I guess that '76 Gran Fury is a bit of an oddity, being a 2-door hardtop used as a police car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Now that's obscure, an Andre-mobile with Russian plates....along with a lemko-special Caddy with Russian plates in the background, and a boring old Lumina. The pic is hosted in Russia as well I see. I know American iron started heading over there as soon as things stablized a little in the mid 90s. Cold war propaganda didn't work!

    That thing really does look like a Buick.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Every unwashed 140 owner thinks he has an armored car - also, the "presidential edition" 140 was only available in sedan form IIRC, and has nothing to do with being bulletproof. Some people...
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Maybe the 'bulletproof glass' is to keep the bullets in - it's got the 'duel climate control' after all :P
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That is funny. Anyone who has ever been an an armored car or driven an armored car will know a fake one pretty quick just by the way it drives. I Have driven a couple of armored Range Rovers and ridden in one armored G500 and it is very obvious they are armored.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wrote and told him that he's confused his car with the Mercedes "S-Guard" model.

    Actually the bullet proof glass might have been installed to protect the dealer from the customer.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, not to mention the greatest car of all time, (IMHO) the 1989 Cadillac Brougham!

    Actually I like just about all of the 1977 era downsized B and C body GM cars. I think they were a spot of brightness in a very dark age. My personal favorite is the 1979 Cadillac DeVilles and Fleetwood.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Looks like a good survivor

    Resale value king
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,675
    Actually I like just about all of the 1977 era downsized B and C body GM cars. I think they were a spot of brightness in a very dark age. My personal favorite is the 1979 Cadillac DeVilles and Fleetwood.

    I like 'em all too, but my favorite among that group is the 1977 Pontiac Catalina. There's just something about that clean, simple split grille that I always liked. I'd love to find a coupe with the 400 V-8. The only real problem with the Catalina, I guess, is that it was a fairly basic car like the Impala, so they weren't all that luxurious. Although you could get them with power windows, locks, and a seat. But the interiors were just vinyl or a basic cloth. Nothing really plush or cushy about them.

    Among the high-end cars, by this time I really started preferring the Electra and Ninety Eight to the Cadillacs. I guess I always looked at them as having the luxury of a Caddy without the bling. Although I wouldn't turn down a nice Caddy, either...as long as it wasn't one with the 4.1 or a Diesel.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,926
    Attending one lousy autocross has really changed my perspective on cars. Saw a '96 Prelude with less than 100k miles in the autoshopper for $4500 and couldn't help think "that could be fun for a track car."

    Oh, by the way, Shifty. Someone showed up last week in what I guess was an old Audi 500? Stripped bare. No grille, no bumpers, big hole cut in the roof, interior stripped bare and a rollbar and racing seat installed. Spray painted yellow and a TAXI sign on the roof. Story was he was testing it for use in the Lemons race. :)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh an Audi 5000. That might make a good 24 Hours of Lemons car indeed. This racing series is a boon to all mankind--now we know what to do with all those hopeless sale-proof cars that nobody wants anymore. They can die a warrior's death.

    Wonderful!
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,278
    I always thought that the Caprices of the late 70s were handsome.

    image

    I remember commercials for them that said, 'you could pay more for a luxury car but don't have to' Couldn't these be optioned up pretty nicely? I recall seeing one at a cruise night last summer that looked to even have a factory moonroof. If it wasn't factory, it was an exceptional aftermarket installation.

    Either way, my brother had an 80 Impala that was a POS. It had some serious engine problems by 65 or 70k
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's not a car you'd want to put any money into though.
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